I personally believe if you're not running path and swords your deck is simply playing on a significantly weaker level than decks that use them. They are the best removal spells in the game. It's the first two reasons I run white, the third being route, and the fourth being vindicate.
If the "whiners" really did convince the rules committee to ban the card, wouldn't that be a demonstration of their social skills?
Sundering Titan was a weird thing to ban, if only because there's so many more egregious "LD tantrum" cards still legal, and it's not like anything about him changed recently. I still like it being banned, though - it hit a really weird middle-point where it was powerful enough to slow the game to a crawl in a permanent, board-altering way, but not powerful enough to decide the game immediately. The "un-fun game state" is the one where we all try to recover from Sundering Titan because it didn't kill us, while the ST player tries to re-trigger it enough times to finish killing us.
The data from the Kokusho, the Evening Star tests seems to paint the picture a lot of us were expecting - that it was one of the first examples of "THIS is what a 6-mana creature should do for you" and thus represented a power spike that got evened out as, for instance, the Titans were printed as further examples. I look forward to Koko easing back into the format in September
And the only reason that's happening is because of surging chaos' wonderful posts and a pack of whiners constantly complaining about how it's unfair for koko to be on. See? It's still on there = the RC has no idea what they're doing and they cater to whiners.... on both sides. I really can't wait to abuse that dragon either. But who knows, life loss is unfun.
The way its abused, it basically is. Your opponents sit there draw and discard while you swing away with a 7/10 beatstick.
Irrelevant, you can combo and abuse anything to make the game unfun and win. Try again. The reason no one can justify this is because there is no justification. It was banned because a few people felt like it. Prove me wrong, you can't :).
Overbeing, while I agree in principle with your logic, I think there's a difference between "focus" and "devolution," the latter leading to the warping state. Every time there's a threat on the table, it merits focus. Devolution is the sharpening of that focus to in nearly every situation in which the card shows up, the game becomes a necessary battle over that card ("that card will kill us all, quickly"--Emrakul) as opposed to a desirable battle over the card (Primeval Titan--"if left unchecked, that card will eventually lead to problems for us" and "ooh, I could use some extra lands too").
While I would like to listen to you, you and the RC clearly have no idea what you want your format to be. You try and use subjective criteria (which you change to justify the ban anyway).
People rarely saw Sundering titan, but I could go to a random play group, cast bribery and always get a sphinx or Ptime, then the game becomes a repeat of the last 9000 games. Not so much with titan it rarely shows up, and when it does show up it doesn't accidently go crazy anymore than like Ptime or sphinx.
Your justification for banning titan.... was laughable at best. I'm not kidding, my cousin in 5th grade read what you typed and laughed out loud (not making this up).
Your credibility is gone, and it's clear you cater to people who would rather whine instead of utilizing social skills and asking them to not use the card. Thanks for popularizing the format, but now you and the RC are becoming more of a problem maker than a problem fixer. All you are doing is giving the people who will always whine and complain more ammo and more justification to complain about card x because it's unfun (whatever that means). You're just legitimizing whining over playing the game. I shouldn't be surprised though after your john funwrecker moment, you're no better than the group of players who whine and complain about non craw wurm cards so it's only natural you would support them.
Please refrain from personal attacks. Warned. -Weebo
Armagaedon should be next. Sure it's a little more expensive and not comparble to balance, but armagaedon kills EVERY land! That's not fun, it's like a game reset! It requires me to have lands in my hand or deck, not to mention, it's not fun having your lands get blown up after all the time and energy it took to put them into play. Land destruction is basically a grieffer tactic it's like sha rah something! It's not fun, it has to be banned because it ruins games. It's only four mana!!! and it's so easy to splash!
The problem with Titan is that it is brutally easy to abuse and it breaks games wide open by accident.
You don't need to build your deck around it or plan around it like Armaggedon effects. If you're dropping a geddon effect without a win-con on board, you're an idiot or an ass. Dropping Titan needs no planning ahead.
I have never seen it blow games wide open when compared to GB, Ptime, emmy, or anything else. It doesn't go crazy like protean hulk (which accidently derps). I've seen palinchron accidently win because i had a land that added two mana.
I've seen primetime accidently get a tomb of yawgmoth and coffers, then the player accidently drew exanguinate and accidently won the game.
The whole oops it accidently did a bad is such a overused and poorly justified arguement.
But i guess the vast majority of the EDH community prefers predictable games and want to ban every card that does something other than tap side ways or facilitate other things in tapping sideways.
People are naturally change adverse, so don't think these poll results are set in stone. I'm curious what an Emrakul ban poll would be like now, since he was 50/50 at the time of ban.
Two different animals......... The thing about GB and emrakul, it was obvious they were comming, but titan? Really? 8 mana to blow out 10 lands that have a basic land type... really? So if you're running a mono color deck you lose what two lands? How much mana and energy do you have to expend to make this as unfun as armagaedon?
After reading this threat I am absolutely confident that 90% of people advocating unbanning Kokusho aren't aware of why he is actually banned.
It's the same reason as why Emrakul is banned. Emrakul isn't rediculously powerful, hell he's more likely to get Bribery'd or Mindleech'd than cast. The issue is that when Kokusho or Emrakul hit the board the game becomes all about them. It has a tendency to ruin the feel of EDH. It's actually very similar to why I'm a huge advocate of banning Worldfire. Worldfire literally invalidates every single thing that ever happened in the game. Everything becomes about worldfire at that point. I can accept the RC giving it a trial run.
I can't take you seriously when you say emrakul and kokusho are similar. I especially can't take you seriously when you say a time walking, flying, annihilator 15/15, protection from colored spells isn't rediculously powerful.
The argument about warping the game around itself when it enters play is stupid. Regardless of the card pool, you will always have cards that warp the game around itself. The discussion was on GB, now it's going to shift to Ptime and sphinx, wanna ban those two? Then it moves on to stuff like the powerpuff girls and avacyn. Let's ban those! Praetors now warp the game. Keep banning!!!! Infect robot is too good!!! Ban! Now we have the eldrazi... ban those too they make bribery too good!
Seriously... altering the card pool wont change anything, it will just change the name of the card warping the game until you have craw wurm the gathering.
Uh. This post kind of implies that you used to prioritise the other way around. And anyway, basic hygiene kind of is important.
I have a very good schedule and self regulate very well. I take a shower after and it's usually done in the morning. Also, it saves paper, that makes me more green.
On the plus side we now have solid criteria for banning... It's all subjective and doesn't have to make any sense.
As a person who both has no problem with land destruction in EDH and thinks the ban list could lose a few cards, I find myself undecided on Sundering Titan. It doesn't sound like an outlandishly bad ban, for example. I really don't see its presence as a necessary evil though. If you really think you need to kill lands and Sundering Titan is your man, you aren't working hard enough.
Obviously sundering Titan was banned because it warped games like emrakul. It's not green and it has abilities, that's format warping. What's format warping? That's not important it just is.
Even on other forums, there hasn't been much Titan qq. There are bigger problems than sundering titan. It doesn't matter now, it's. Lear that the ban list is shapped by whiners and other people who ruin magic games with their attitude towards something subjective like fun. The list and the rc are no longer worth listening too. Wiping my ass after a dump is much more crucial and important.
Game end cards get banned for.. guess what, ENDING THE GAME
So, we can all clearly see, this is a powerlevel issue.
Powerhoser cards can win the game, on the spot. Sundering can not.
Only reasoning behind the sundering ban, and clearly stated by Sheldon is UNFUN-factor and community-WHINE-factor
As far as i'm concerned, sheldon has no more credibility. The arguement around sundering titan stopped and shifted to Ptime and sphinx. I had a feeling GB could be banned (so glad I didn't buy him) but sundering titan? That is so left field.
"Two, there has been a fair amount of community distaste for the card, and we agreed that the card overwhelmingly creates a negative experience for players. Listening to the ever-growing and ever more-involved community is important to us."
Are you serious sheldon? I forgot this card existed once the ptime qq started. You are seriously 2 years behind. What is sundering titan not green enough for you?
I understand the GB ban but sundering titan? The banlist is now irrelevant. I haven't heard a QQ about this for 2 years really? So if I make 120 forum accounts and complain about card X. Can we get that banned too.
Cast diabolic revelation for your library. Play a mana crypt, tap to play a sol ring, tap to play a blue signet (1 floating), use signet and remove simian/elvish spirit guide from hand, play laboratory maniac, play gitaxian probe.
Am I doing this right?
Not realistic, it requires infinite mana before casting the tutor.
And the only reason that's happening is because of surging chaos' wonderful posts and a pack of whiners constantly complaining about how it's unfair for koko to be on. See? It's still on there = the RC has no idea what they're doing and they cater to whiners.... on both sides. I really can't wait to abuse that dragon either. But who knows, life loss is unfun.
Irrelevant, you can combo and abuse anything to make the game unfun and win. Try again. The reason no one can justify this is because there is no justification. It was banned because a few people felt like it. Prove me wrong, you can't :).
No it's not, and it's not an armageddon....
While I would like to listen to you, you and the RC clearly have no idea what you want your format to be. You try and use subjective criteria (which you change to justify the ban anyway).
People rarely saw Sundering titan, but I could go to a random play group, cast bribery and always get a sphinx or Ptime, then the game becomes a repeat of the last 9000 games. Not so much with titan it rarely shows up, and when it does show up it doesn't accidently go crazy anymore than like Ptime or sphinx.
Your justification for banning titan.... was laughable at best. I'm not kidding, my cousin in 5th grade read what you typed and laughed out loud (not making this up).
Your credibility is gone, and it's clear you cater to people who would rather whine instead of utilizing social skills and asking them to not use the card. Thanks for popularizing the format, but now you and the RC are becoming more of a problem maker than a problem fixer. All you are doing is giving the people who will always whine and complain more ammo and more justification to complain about card x because it's unfun (whatever that means). You're just legitimizing whining over playing the game. I shouldn't be surprised though after your john funwrecker moment, you're no better than the group of players who whine and complain about non craw wurm cards so it's only natural you would support them.
Please refrain from personal attacks. Warned. -Weebo
I have never seen it blow games wide open when compared to GB, Ptime, emmy, or anything else. It doesn't go crazy like protean hulk (which accidently derps). I've seen palinchron accidently win because i had a land that added two mana.
I've seen primetime accidently get a tomb of yawgmoth and coffers, then the player accidently drew exanguinate and accidently won the game.
The whole oops it accidently did a bad is such a overused and poorly justified arguement.
But i guess the vast majority of the EDH community prefers predictable games and want to ban every card that does something other than tap side ways or facilitate other things in tapping sideways.
Two different animals......... The thing about GB and emrakul, it was obvious they were comming, but titan? Really? 8 mana to blow out 10 lands that have a basic land type... really? So if you're running a mono color deck you lose what two lands? How much mana and energy do you have to expend to make this as unfun as armagaedon?
I can't take you seriously when you say emrakul and kokusho are similar. I especially can't take you seriously when you say a time walking, flying, annihilator 15/15, protection from colored spells isn't rediculously powerful.
The argument about warping the game around itself when it enters play is stupid. Regardless of the card pool, you will always have cards that warp the game around itself. The discussion was on GB, now it's going to shift to Ptime and sphinx, wanna ban those two? Then it moves on to stuff like the powerpuff girls and avacyn. Let's ban those! Praetors now warp the game. Keep banning!!!! Infect robot is too good!!! Ban! Now we have the eldrazi... ban those too they make bribery too good!
Seriously... altering the card pool wont change anything, it will just change the name of the card warping the game until you have craw wurm the gathering.
I have a very good schedule and self regulate very well. I take a shower after and it's usually done in the morning. Also, it saves paper, that makes me more green.
On the plus side we now have solid criteria for banning... It's all subjective and doesn't have to make any sense.
Obviously sundering Titan was banned because it warped games like emrakul. It's not green and it has abilities, that's format warping. What's format warping? That's not important it just is.
Even on other forums, there hasn't been much Titan qq. There are bigger problems than sundering titan. It doesn't matter now, it's. Lear that the ban list is shapped by whiners and other people who ruin magic games with their attitude towards something subjective like fun. The list and the rc are no longer worth listening too. Wiping my ass after a dump is much more crucial and important.
As far as i'm concerned, sheldon has no more credibility. The arguement around sundering titan stopped and shifted to Ptime and sphinx. I had a feeling GB could be banned (so glad I didn't buy him) but sundering titan? That is so left field.
"Two, there has been a fair amount of community distaste for the card, and we agreed that the card overwhelmingly creates a negative experience for players. Listening to the ever-growing and ever more-involved community is important to us."
Are you serious sheldon? I forgot this card existed once the ptime qq started. You are seriously 2 years behind. What is sundering titan not green enough for you?
Not realistic, it requires infinite mana before casting the tutor.