Can you explain the doomsday lines in more detail. For example does there have to be certain cards in hand and how to accomplish teh combo then. Thanks.
Absolutely! So the easiest Doomsday line is usually the Rain of Filth line. It requires four lands in play and 1B in pool after resolving Doomsday. Here's how that plays out.
Resolve Doomsday (Rain of Filth, Skirge Familiar, Dakmor Salvage, Kozilek, Praetor's Grasp)
Use your cantrip, draw Rain of Filth, cast it
Sac four lands, draw four cards, make BBBB
Cast Skirge Familiar, discard Kozilek, discard Dakmor Salvage, perform the loop.
Note that if you don't have enough lands in play, but you have extra mana, this line will still get you there. You only need 2 lands in play to draw Skirge Familiar and Dakmor, so theoretically you could have 3 floating at the beginning and 2 lands in play. Note also you can change the pile to use Putrid Imp if you already have Kozilek or a Ritual effect in your hand to save on mana requirements.
Lake of the Dead plays the exact same role as Rain of Filth, except it's even more mana-lite. Lake of the Dead eats a land-drop and requires two Swamps, but if you only have B in pool and one land drop, it's the only pile that will work.
So how do you play around necropotence if it exiles your discards
Necropotence's discard downside actually does nothing to our combo. That's right, nothing. Because Necropotence has a triggered ability, we can choose to have it resolve after the Dakmor gets dredged to our hand. Similarly, if we discard Kozilek, the shuffle trigger can resolve before the exile trigger does.
Hmm. I haven't considered Necrologia. The big difference between this card and Ad Nauseam is that an Ad Naus can be casted at an opponent's EOT, then you untap, cast Gitrog, and win. With Necrologia, you have to have Gitrog in play first to win on the spot. However, it does seem likely that, if you can draw a full 39 cards and you have TGM in play, you will win. First of all, if you get Dakmor, you just win on the spot through the end step loop. If you don't get Dakmor but you have just one more mana, you can chain rituals and use Oblivion Crown or a Necromancy for a discard outlet, then use a dredge card to chain into Dakmor. Could be worth testing.
Definitely nice, probably just a one-for-one replacement for Crucible. You don't need multiple of that effect, and as far as I'm concerned this is just a more tutorable crucible.
Most of the time if I want to downplay a threat, I'll make a point of how few options I have. "Man, there is really not much to do here... I guess... Wild Mongrel pass?" If you announce "cardname pass" instead of "cardname, does that resolve," you also have a better chance of letting it resolve.
Hi, really enjoy this deck I was just wondering though. Why don't you run Manabond? I mean it's hardcore ramp, a discard outlet, and it's 1 green so it won't hurt when we hit it with Ad Nauseam.
Hey, great question! I always found that Manabond was a bit of a trap. I don't get to keep any of the good cards that I want to cast, so I'm in complete topdeck mode! After Manabond, if Frog gets removed, I'm usually immediately dead. Thanks for asking!
Hey guys! Sorry I haven't been active at all lately. You guys are both right - I have played very little Magic lately, and I had (temporarily) also moved on to Gitrog. Today I woke up and realized that I really missed playing Magic, hanging out with my old friends, and browsing/posting on these forums and keeping up with the regulars. Coincidentally, today Protean Hulk was unbanned.
So expect me to be more active in the future. I have to rebuild Jarad - it's been far too long, and Hulk is insane in this deck. The list currently in the OP can combo off with a single Hulk death with the simple inclusion of Viscera Seer - Hulk -> Seer + Phyrexian Delver (gets back Hulk), sac Hulk -> Mikeaus, sac Delver, Undying, grab Hulk, sac Hulk -> Triskelion! Pretty cool line, except that if Phyrexian Delver isn't in the deck, it doesn't work. I'll have to do some thinking as to the most effective package!
So I see that you don't actually have a section in your primer for comparing Jarad to Meren! What would you say the main differences are between the two commanders, from your perspective?
Yes, the primer is quite out of date by now! It'll get an update this month. As for Meren, the biggest difference is this. Meren, as a commander, is consistently good and consistently adds to your presence in the game. Jarad, as a commander, is not commonly a powerful line, but when he is, it generally produces a very powerful effect - look at Mindslicer, Pattern of Rebirth, Phyrexian Devourer... and our newest buddy, Protean Hulk. I'm of the opinion that before Hulk was banned, Meren probably had a slight edge over Jarad for a few reasons: Meren has superior matchups against most of the top decks, Meren can play Null Rod because they don't rely on Mike&Trike or Phyrexian Devourer combo so hard, and Meren can more easily produce soft-lock scenarios that make it hard for your opponents to win the game by looping a creature (Mindslicer, Woodfall Primus, etc) with Meren every turn.
More spicy: When Necromancy leaves the battlefield, it creates a trigger that forces you to sacrifice Skirge Familiar. You can win in response to the trigger
razzliox, I'd love to hear your updates on the following from a competitive game play perspective, i.e. the following may work, and be very clear to explain in a goldfishing scenario, but may be more vulnerable to disruption:
1 - Dakmor Salvage to generate draw triggers with every flipped land
2 - When you hit Gaea's Blessing or Kozilek, immediately shuffle (there may be edges cases covered by the algorithm, but this works in practice)
3 - Repeat (there may be some edge cases that are covered more fully in your algorithm and proof, mazeTemporal) until draw trigger > number of cards in deck. I find in practice this takes about 5-6 loops to a shuffle trigger.
4 - Draw deck
5 - Discard Kozilek, shuffle into library, and draw so all remaining draw triggers are removed from stack (so we can play non-instants)
5 - Lotus petal, crack for one mana
6 - Discard four lands generating four draw triggers, discard Kozilek shuffling library. mazeTemporal, do you consider this the simplest base case for which you can show every possibility leads, in a finite number of steps, to drawing the entire library to repeat step 5? Of course you can do it with less discarded lands, but it seems in those cases you can only say that you can draw your library with arbitrarily close to 1 probability. For example, say you crack Lotus Petal, discard land (draw trigger), Kozilek shuffle, but the order of the library is not with the petal in the third slot, then you have to shuffle with the first dredge and repeat until petal is in third slot, which will get arbitrarily close to one, but in an infinite number of steps.
So, in the above, crack Petal, 4x land/draw triggers, Kozilek. If at least one land in top 2, then we increase our draw triggers and repeat. If Petal and Kozilek in top two, then bottom four are lands. Dredge, hitting two lands, draw the last two lands, shuffle, and then draw 4-card library with 4+ draw triggers on stack.
Generally, I'll let the draw triggers resolve as I perform the combo, instead of putting them all on the stack at once. That gives me a better chance of drawing into cards that significantly hasten the process, like, say, Ad Nauseam. Once I have my deck in my hand, I'll create infinite black mana with Skirge Familiar just by cycling cards. You can discard ten lands to Familiar, make ten black mana and get ten draw triggers, cycle Barren Moor for two more instances of "draw a card," and pitch Kozilek, shuffle up, resolve all your draw triggers, and repeat. I generally don't use Lotus Petal just because everything needs to be able to be done instant-speed. If you don't already have familiar, and it's the end-step, you can Elvish Spirit Guide -> Crop Rotation -> Dark Ritual -> Necromancy on it.
In the main phase, it's generally pretty simple. Just Praetor's Grasp for someone else's combo and win with that.
I also vouch for Dryad Arbor. Turning GSZ into a manadork and turning green fetches into tutors when necessary is a real boon. It just adds so much consistency to cards like Diabolic Intent, Birthing Pod, Eldritch Evolution because you always have a creature to sac.
Pretty interested in this lately. Willing to give a really dedicated response to Gaea's Blessing? I've been fond of the card for ages and seeing it here is honestly what caused me to invest in the deck during trades for other decks. Im inherently a UB player but since I was a kid, GB has been my favorite color combo aesthetically. Please help convince me to run this deck and help participate to its growth :]
Gaea's Blessing provides me with ultimate protection. First of all, it lets me win through Anafenza the Foremost, which Kozilek does not let me do. Secondly, it beats one-shot gravehate targeting Kozilek like Deathrite Shaman. Unless I have Noxious Revival or Necromancy in hand, there's no way to get Kozilek out of the graveyard once he's in there. With Gaea's Blessing in the deck, I can just respond by dredging a bunch of cards and getting another shuffle trigger. Even if they have 2x gravehate, the Blessing trigger will still shuffle Kozilek back in, so they need 3x gravehate to beat the combo.
As for your last sentence, I sincerely believe that the turbofroggy build can easily race top decks like Zur, Jeleva, Prossh, and has very favored matchups against grindier decks like Karador. This deck is GB but don't let that fool you; half the time, you win off Laboratory Maniac that you Praetor's Grasp for. With an Ad Nauseam + Ritual package, it definitely doesn't have that traditional Golgari feel.
Things i'm looking for in a Commander
-Allows me to play powerful blue cards
-Allows me to generate card advantage
+Bonus Points if it synergies well with artifacts
I've updated the OP, vastly expanding on the strategy section and sharing my freshest take on Frog combo. The biggest change is that I'm no longer playing Geth's Verdict and now relying on a Rath's Edge kill.
I don't understand why you play Sliver Queen over Tazri. I get that Tazri wants you to be a bit more all-in than you are, but Tazri's tutor ability can find a few cards that could be useful. Zulaport Cutthroat seems plausible. I also don't understand why you play the sacrifice outlets you do. In what way is Blasting Station better than Varolz, Scar-Striped, which can be tutored with Green Sun's Zenith?
Absolutely! So the easiest Doomsday line is usually the Rain of Filth line. It requires four lands in play and 1B in pool after resolving Doomsday. Here's how that plays out.
Resolve Doomsday (Rain of Filth, Skirge Familiar, Dakmor Salvage, Kozilek, Praetor's Grasp)
Use your cantrip, draw Rain of Filth, cast it
Sac four lands, draw four cards, make BBBB
Cast Skirge Familiar, discard Kozilek, discard Dakmor Salvage, perform the loop.
Note that if you don't have enough lands in play, but you have extra mana, this line will still get you there. You only need 2 lands in play to draw Skirge Familiar and Dakmor, so theoretically you could have 3 floating at the beginning and 2 lands in play. Note also you can change the pile to use Putrid Imp if you already have Kozilek or a Ritual effect in your hand to save on mana requirements.
Lake of the Dead plays the exact same role as Rain of Filth, except it's even more mana-lite. Lake of the Dead eats a land-drop and requires two Swamps, but if you only have B in pool and one land drop, it's the only pile that will work.
Necropotence's discard downside actually does nothing to our combo. That's right, nothing. Because Necropotence has a triggered ability, we can choose to have it resolve after the Dakmor gets dredged to our hand. Similarly, if we discard Kozilek, the shuffle trigger can resolve before the exile trigger does.
Hmm. I haven't considered Necrologia. The big difference between this card and Ad Nauseam is that an Ad Naus can be casted at an opponent's EOT, then you untap, cast Gitrog, and win. With Necrologia, you have to have Gitrog in play first to win on the spot. However, it does seem likely that, if you can draw a full 39 cards and you have TGM in play, you will win. First of all, if you get Dakmor, you just win on the spot through the end step loop. If you don't get Dakmor but you have just one more mana, you can chain rituals and use Oblivion Crown or a Necromancy for a discard outlet, then use a dredge card to chain into Dakmor. Could be worth testing.
Definitely nice, probably just a one-for-one replacement for Crucible. You don't need multiple of that effect, and as far as I'm concerned this is just a more tutorable crucible.
Hey, great question! I always found that Manabond was a bit of a trap. I don't get to keep any of the good cards that I want to cast, so I'm in complete topdeck mode! After Manabond, if Frog gets removed, I'm usually immediately dead. Thanks for asking!
So expect me to be more active in the future. I have to rebuild Jarad - it's been far too long, and Hulk is insane in this deck. The list currently in the OP can combo off with a single Hulk death with the simple inclusion of Viscera Seer - Hulk -> Seer + Phyrexian Delver (gets back Hulk), sac Hulk -> Mikeaus, sac Delver, Undying, grab Hulk, sac Hulk -> Triskelion! Pretty cool line, except that if Phyrexian Delver isn't in the deck, it doesn't work. I'll have to do some thinking as to the most effective package!
Yes, the primer is quite out of date by now! It'll get an update this month. As for Meren, the biggest difference is this. Meren, as a commander, is consistently good and consistently adds to your presence in the game. Jarad, as a commander, is not commonly a powerful line, but when he is, it generally produces a very powerful effect - look at Mindslicer, Pattern of Rebirth, Phyrexian Devourer... and our newest buddy, Protean Hulk. I'm of the opinion that before Hulk was banned, Meren probably had a slight edge over Jarad for a few reasons: Meren has superior matchups against most of the top decks, Meren can play Null Rod because they don't rely on Mike&Trike or Phyrexian Devourer combo so hard, and Meren can more easily produce soft-lock scenarios that make it hard for your opponents to win the game by looping a creature (Mindslicer, Woodfall Primus, etc) with Meren every turn.
Generally, I'll let the draw triggers resolve as I perform the combo, instead of putting them all on the stack at once. That gives me a better chance of drawing into cards that significantly hasten the process, like, say, Ad Nauseam. Once I have my deck in my hand, I'll create infinite black mana with Skirge Familiar just by cycling cards. You can discard ten lands to Familiar, make ten black mana and get ten draw triggers, cycle Barren Moor for two more instances of "draw a card," and pitch Kozilek, shuffle up, resolve all your draw triggers, and repeat. I generally don't use Lotus Petal just because everything needs to be able to be done instant-speed. If you don't already have familiar, and it's the end-step, you can Elvish Spirit Guide -> Crop Rotation -> Dark Ritual -> Necromancy on it.
In the main phase, it's generally pretty simple. Just Praetor's Grasp for someone else's combo and win with that.
Both lands are playable, but the landbase is super tight. I don't want to cut my basic count or go down on colored sources.
Gaea's Blessing provides me with ultimate protection. First of all, it lets me win through Anafenza the Foremost, which Kozilek does not let me do. Secondly, it beats one-shot gravehate targeting Kozilek like Deathrite Shaman. Unless I have Noxious Revival or Necromancy in hand, there's no way to get Kozilek out of the graveyard once he's in there. With Gaea's Blessing in the deck, I can just respond by dredging a bunch of cards and getting another shuffle trigger. Even if they have 2x gravehate, the Blessing trigger will still shuffle Kozilek back in, so they need 3x gravehate to beat the combo.
As for your last sentence, I sincerely believe that the turbofroggy build can easily race top decks like Zur, Jeleva, Prossh, and has very favored matchups against grindier decks like Karador. This deck is GB but don't let that fool you; half the time, you win off Laboratory Maniac that you Praetor's Grasp for. With an Ad Nauseam + Ritual package, it definitely doesn't have that traditional Golgari feel.
Also, 1500 posts! woo
Sharuum the Hegemon and Arcum Dagsson come to mind.
Card-by-card incoming.