But serious question, why buy graded in the first place?
It's a fair question. I like owning/playing with NM cards, and go to lengths to keep my cards in nice shape, even when using in decks. Plus, especially for older stuff, the resale value is way better, along with being easier to move, if I ever care to. I don't spend tons more for graded (above 9 is pure collectors' territory), but I've often found I can get an 8.5 or 9 for a few more dollars than "ungraded NM" (which sometimes isn't available at all). So I guess, paying/trading a little more to put some nice-but-not-pristine cards back into circulation has some appeal to me as part of the format.
Up until a couple months ago, I'd only ever owned/busted one graded card - a PSA 9 Revised Underground Sea that I bought a few years back because the price was the same as ungraded at the time. Even including the cards pictured from today, I think I've only busted a dozen cases. It makes a sharp plastic mess if I'm not careful, and I definitely hedged a bit on the Serra Angel, but ultimately decided it was too cool to stay encased in plastic.
Nice, I felt a little weird trading for Beta Serra too, but my only regret now is that I only managed to pick up one before they started climbing in price. I love when people break open the cases. The whole grading thing has made good condition cards like this much harder to find without having to pay a premium because it's graded. I don't understand why people want cards that are encased in so much plastic. Cards were meant for playing.
GumgodMTG, you'll appreciate what happened at my house this afternoon:
In my opinion, old cards graded at 9 to 10 are real collector's items. If you want to play, you can probably trade a 9 off for at least 2 ungraded, EX+ copies going by current prices. Maybe more. The last 9.5 Serra on eBay sold for $385, which is pretty crazy. Anything less than 8.5 is fair for cracking.
I was actually watching that auction (not because I had any intention of bidding on it, was more a curiosity). Seller had a 9 and a 9.5 (both BGS) and the 9.5 went for literally $300 more than the 9. Crazy. I've busted a number of slabs for this format so far (including many BGS 9's), but most of them inexpensive Umlimited cards. I feel like 9.5 is where the really serious collectors get involved, unless you're talking about super rare stuff like AB rares and Summer.
I liked your comment, GumgodMTG, about wanting to sell your modern cards every time you see oldschool pics. I'm the same. I love Modern, Legacy, etc., but I've definitely gutted some of the Modern stuff I wasn't using to help fund 93/94. I haven't yet devolved to selling off eternal staples like Force and LotV to get into power, but it seems like it gets more tempting every day.
I got my Chaos Orb from PucaTrade. To get there, I gave up Deathrite Shamans, Caverns of Souls, Abrupt Decays, Steam Vents and other goodies. I love having a Chaos Orb though, and would probably do it again, even with the current value of the caverns... (They basically doubled since I've traded them) I've just had so much fun flipping that card. Oh and I gave up a Liliana of the Veil and Dark Depths when I got my Time Vault (there was a whole pile of other stuff lumped in there too, but I ended up selling that one a couple months back). So yeah, when I say I'm giving up new staples for old cards, I mean it.
I haven't ditched primary playsets of staples yet. Lots of trades into stores of lower value, half-playable stuff like Jace Beleren, an extra set of Deathrites that never amounted to much after it was banned in Modern, etc. It adds up quick. Splurged a little on a BGS 9 artist-signed Beta Serra Angel that I still need to bust out of the case. From a play value standpoint, some of the trades I've made feel ridiculous. Totally worth it though.
The guys who run this format are awesome. They're admittedly elitist within their own playgroup, but absolutely encourage other groups to legalize whatever they want, so long as it maintains an oldschool feel. Also worth mentioning that Magnus (the primary oldschool blog author) recently ran a crowdsourced campaign called MtgForLife, in which participants sold off Magic cards and donated the proceeds to Doctors Without Borders. It was a totally selfless undertaking, and ended up raising over $12,000. The whole mindset behind 93/94 is incredible.
A couple friends and I have been working at the format for a couple months. I've been playing since '94, but didn't have any carryover from those years aside from a handful of Revised duals. I've got a B/W deadguy deck in pretty solid form, a few cards away from being "legit" oldschool (though most of it's still white-bordered). Playing with original art proxies is completely fine - it's better to be able to play at all than not - but part of the appeal is also working to acquire the ABU versions. I don't think the allure would be the same using a pile of $0.25 4th Edition cards.
I liked your comment, GumgodMTG, about wanting to sell your modern cards every time you see oldschool pics. I'm the same. I love Modern, Legacy, etc., but I've definitely gutted some of the Modern stuff I wasn't using to help fund 93/94. I haven't yet devolved to selling off eternal staples like Force and LotV to get into power, but it seems like it gets more tempting every day.
Bummed to hear all this. Have had many positive experiences with this seller, including when I ordered 4x Wasteland Strangler from them. By accident they shipped me a different BFZ rare playset. Contacted them and they quickly mailed out the correct cards and let me keep the others.
That said, I recently started a thread in this sub about a different seller due to having a similar experience as the OP. This kind of attitude from a seller (especially on a repeated basis) is unprofessional and simply inexcusable and will make me think twice before ordering in the future.
I'd not be surprised if it's Old School. Very playable in white weenie, which is an entry level deck. Be annoyed with the OS crowd if you want, but as you said, you could've gotten the card cheaply for years. Unfortunately it takes very little OS demand to wipe out the supply of a card like that.
By all means it can be discussed, as long as the topic stays on track. This thread is not in violation of our rules; it is actually very helpful in trying to stop the counterfits from making it into circulation. A big "high 5" goes out to the OP for bringing it to the community's attention.
There are others (like the OP!) who say that all counterfeits are proxies.
I used the term proxy as that's how these are being marketed, and didn't want to use harsher language before verifying their [il]legality. I suppose all counterfeits could be considered a subset of all proxies... but that doesn't make them OK, or not fakes, or whatever.
If you want to pay a craftsman to make you up a cool looking proxy, then you're in luck: there are lots of people who do exactly this. Here, I'll even give you a link to a bunch of em: https://www.etsy.com/search?q=magic the gathering proxy
Of note, there's at least one seller on that Etsy link (USProxyShop) selling what appear to be counterfeits.
An Ebay Seller has listed tons of proxies (labeled as "reproductions"). Is it actually legal to create and sell these, regardless of disclosing their nature? I've seen alt-art and anime foil proxies and whatnot, but this is basically putting counterfeits into circulation via eBay. Should this be reported?
There's just no winning on the condition front. I've offered high res scans of my cards and people still complain ask for a partial discount after they already have my cards.
It's incredibly frustrating as a seller because there is little more I can do than offer a scan and let the scan speak for itself.
I sell cards on eBay all the time. A person or business takes on the inherent risks of dealing with card condition simply by choosing to be an online seller of Magic cards. My request for pics is made with the intention of avoiding a condition dispute, not justifying one.
In any case, this is more about the seller having a poor attitude and being unprofessional. The seller's negative feedback ratings in recent months show a track record of the same.
Thought I'd share a message exchange I had today with this seller. This was in regards to a listing of an old card that he had two quantity of, but only a picture of a single card front. To be fair, the pic provided is very high res, but also at an angle in not the best light. Anyway, readers can make their own judgment as to whether they'd want to deal with someone like this. (Overall feedback % is good, but the negative comments are pretty consistent and telling.)
From: bigheartmagic
To: ***********
Subject: Re: *********** has sent a question about item #231757136647, ending on Dec-17-15 22:21:44 PST - #YHK MTG Magic Sol Ring x1 Unlimited NM
Sent Date: Dec-02-15 20:15:28 PST
Dear ***********,
And you're a nit-picker, someone I have no interest in dealing with anyway. Thanks, B
- bigheartmagic
From: ***********
To: bigheartmagic
Subject: Re: *********** has sent a question about item #231757136647, ending on Dec-17-15 22:21:44 PST - #YHK MTG Magic Sol Ring x1 Unlimited NM
Sent Date: Dec-02-15 20:13:53 PST
Dear bigheartmagic,
Cool, I won't waste my time with your listings anymore. That was a really rude response.
- ***********
From: bigheartmagic
To: ***********
Subject: Re: *********** has sent a question about item #231757136647, ending on Dec-17-15 22:21:44 PST - #YHK MTG Magic Sol Ring x1 Unlimited NM
Sent Date: Dec-02-15 19:49:07 PST
Dear ***********,
I don't know how I can get a closer picture of the front than the one I have up, and I could send you a stock photo for the back since it's NM, so no, I won't waste my time with this request. B
- bigheartmagic
From: ***********
To: bigheartmagic
Subject: *********** has sent a question about item #231757136647, ending on Dec-17-15 22:21:44 PST - #YHK MTG Magic Sol Ring x1 Unlimited NM
Sent Date: Dec-02-15 09:26:38 PST
Dear bigheartmagic,
Hi - would it be possible to provide close up front and back pics of these? Thanks!
Chances for BFZ is very, very low. Two different cycles of rare lands in a single set is something they just don't do.
It was done in Innistrad (enemy buddy lands + allied utility lands).
It was done in original Zendikar as well,but.....the distinction is that its only ever five dual lands and another non dual cycle. They wont ever put 10 dual lands in a single set, especially not two enemy dual land cycles. That would be shooting yourself in the foot, since you just made it hard to sell the next set or made the previous on not have any chase duals in it.
I think the stronger argument for no enemy manlands in BFZ is that you'd then have consecutive sets in the same block with enemy dual cycles (assuming enemy slowlands in OGW). I don't really agree with the reasoning that enemy duals and allied slowlands aren't different enough to occupy the same set... but that's neither here or there since it almost assuredly won't happen in BFZ.
It's a fair question. I like owning/playing with NM cards, and go to lengths to keep my cards in nice shape, even when using in decks. Plus, especially for older stuff, the resale value is way better, along with being easier to move, if I ever care to. I don't spend tons more for graded (above 9 is pure collectors' territory), but I've often found I can get an 8.5 or 9 for a few more dollars than "ungraded NM" (which sometimes isn't available at all). So I guess, paying/trading a little more to put some nice-but-not-pristine cards back into circulation has some appeal to me as part of the format.
Up until a couple months ago, I'd only ever owned/busted one graded card - a PSA 9 Revised Underground Sea that I bought a few years back because the price was the same as ungraded at the time. Even including the cards pictured from today, I think I've only busted a dozen cases. It makes a sharp plastic mess if I'm not careful, and I definitely hedged a bit on the Serra Angel, but ultimately decided it was too cool to stay encased in plastic.
GumgodMTG, you'll appreciate what happened at my house this afternoon:
I was actually watching that auction (not because I had any intention of bidding on it, was more a curiosity). Seller had a 9 and a 9.5 (both BGS) and the 9.5 went for literally $300 more than the 9. Crazy. I've busted a number of slabs for this format so far (including many BGS 9's), but most of them inexpensive Umlimited cards. I feel like 9.5 is where the really serious collectors get involved, unless you're talking about super rare stuff like AB rares and Summer.
I haven't ditched primary playsets of staples yet. Lots of trades into stores of lower value, half-playable stuff like Jace Beleren, an extra set of Deathrites that never amounted to much after it was banned in Modern, etc. It adds up quick. Splurged a little on a BGS 9 artist-signed Beta Serra Angel that I still need to bust out of the case. From a play value standpoint, some of the trades I've made feel ridiculous. Totally worth it though.
A couple friends and I have been working at the format for a couple months. I've been playing since '94, but didn't have any carryover from those years aside from a handful of Revised duals. I've got a B/W deadguy deck in pretty solid form, a few cards away from being "legit" oldschool (though most of it's still white-bordered). Playing with original art proxies is completely fine - it's better to be able to play at all than not - but part of the appeal is also working to acquire the ABU versions. I don't think the allure would be the same using a pile of $0.25 4th Edition cards.
I liked your comment, GumgodMTG, about wanting to sell your modern cards every time you see oldschool pics. I'm the same. I love Modern, Legacy, etc., but I've definitely gutted some of the Modern stuff I wasn't using to help fund 93/94. I haven't yet devolved to selling off eternal staples like Force and LotV to get into power, but it seems like it gets more tempting every day.
That said, I recently started a thread in this sub about a different seller due to having a similar experience as the OP. This kind of attitude from a seller (especially on a repeated basis) is unprofessional and simply inexcusable and will make me think twice before ordering in the future.
This is due to Old School, I'm fairly certain.
Appreciate it, Duxx.
I used the term proxy as that's how these are being marketed, and didn't want to use harsher language before verifying their [il]legality. I suppose all counterfeits could be considered a subset of all proxies... but that doesn't make them OK, or not fakes, or whatever.
Of note, there's at least one seller on that Etsy link (USProxyShop) selling what appear to be counterfeits.
I did as well. Thanks for the replies.
Link Removed.
- Rai
I sell cards on eBay all the time. A person or business takes on the inherent risks of dealing with card condition simply by choosing to be an online seller of Magic cards. My request for pics is made with the intention of avoiding a condition dispute, not justifying one.
In any case, this is more about the seller having a poor attitude and being unprofessional. The seller's negative feedback ratings in recent months show a track record of the same.
I think the stronger argument for no enemy manlands in BFZ is that you'd then have consecutive sets in the same block with enemy dual cycles (assuming enemy slowlands in OGW). I don't really agree with the reasoning that enemy duals and allied slowlands aren't different enough to occupy the same set... but that's neither here or there since it almost assuredly won't happen in BFZ.