So I am retiring this Primer effective today. Ever since moving back in 2016, I have not played nearly as much MTG and have slowly been scaling back on my cards, selling some off or just giving to close friends, to the point now I haven't even purchased or put any effort into recent sets at all. I continued to maintain effort into this site, but I can clearly tell that I am not that into it anymore...
To whomever reads this material and finds any future inspirations, I am glad you utilized my thread in any way possible. May your future games go awesomely!
So, somewhat necro, but I am retiring this Primer effectively today. Ever since moving back in 2016, I have not played nearly as much MTG and have slowly been scaling back on my cards, selling some off or just giving to close friends, to the point now I haven't even purchased or put any effort into recent sets at all. I continued to maintain effort into this site, but I can clearly tell that I am not that into it anymore...
To whomever reads this material and finds any future inspirations, I am glad you utilized my thread in any way possible. May your future games go awesomely!
If you wanted to run Blood Moon, what card would you take out?
Quicksmith Genius honestly. If you want to be competitive still, then I'd probably cut Aetherworks Marvel instead. I really liked Blood Moon for my competitive games, but it was just too mean for the more casual setting, which is where this deck exists now.
This card has consistently been a problem in any deck willing to invest in any amount of mana dorks/mana rocks and a small amount of draw. It takes a comically small board state to suddenly "go off". I'm talking 1-2 mana rocks and 1-2 mana dorks. This is a problem, both for cEDH and casual. Whereas Prophet of Kruphix provides a lot of midrange/controllish value, this card absolutely puts some combo decks over the top just by its mere presence. I'd like to see a ban on this card. Hell, i'd accept a Prophet unbanning just to see this card gone.
Edit:
After reading through some of the dissension on this thread about it being banned or considered to be banned, why is the general argument against its banning: "Well, it doesn't do anything if you don't build your deck around it". Why is that the point? I get that that was the criteria for the banning of Sylvan Primordial, Primeval Titan, and Prophet of Kruphix, but that is not the only criteria for a card needing to be banned. Look at Coalition Victory. You can't just throw that in a deck and have it be over powered. Same with Painter's Servant, Biorhythm, Worldfire and many others. Believe it or not, cards can be problematic even if throwing them into a casual deck doesn't break them.
The fact that it doesnt do anything on it's own is the critical reason why it won't be banned. The cards you all listed either 1) were insanely strong on their own, 2) are poor for the nature of the format, or 3) poor for a multiplayer game. I don't see Paradox Engine falling into those categories.
If Paradox Engine is able to ruin a game of mine it means I let someone have insane amount of ramp and access to card draw with no repercussions, which is on me as a player to be better about.
You are greatly overstating how much of a board presence one needs to take advantage of PE. Unless you are literally blowing up every mana rock and dork that your opponents play(you aren't), then it is extremely easy for someone to assemble infinite mana and/or card draw with Paradox Engine and a pretty limited board state. Hell, I've seen people go off with a single Selvala, Explorer Returned.
On the contrary, I think you are overstating the 'broken' value of this. I ran it in my Selvala deck and more often than not it led to me getting one extra untap and then nothing else. Artifact board wipes are VERY common, so mana rocks getting pwned is not uncommon around my parts because many people play artifacts and thus they get nuked. I also see the same thing on MTGO.
This card has consistently been a problem in any deck willing to invest in any amount of mana dorks/mana rocks and a small amount of draw. It takes a comically small board state to suddenly "go off". I'm talking 1-2 mana rocks and 1-2 mana dorks. This is a problem, both for cEDH and casual. Whereas Prophet of Kruphix provides a lot of midrange/controllish value, this card absolutely puts some combo decks over the top just by its mere presence. I'd like to see a ban on this card. Hell, i'd accept a Prophet unbanning just to see this card gone.
Edit:
After reading through some of the dissension on this thread about it being banned or considered to be banned, why is the general argument against its banning: "Well, it doesn't do anything if you don't build your deck around it". Why is that the point? I get that that was the criteria for the banning of Sylvan Primordial, Primeval Titan, and Prophet of Kruphix, but that is not the only criteria for a card needing to be banned. Look at Coalition Victory. You can't just throw that in a deck and have it be over powered. Same with Painter's Servant, Biorhythm, Worldfire and many others. Believe it or not, cards can be problematic even if throwing them into a casual deck doesn't break them.
The fact that it doesnt do anything on it's own is the critical reason why it won't be banned. The cards you all listed either 1) were insanely strong on their own, 2) are poor for the nature of the format, or 3) poor for a multiplayer game. I don't see Paradox Engine falling into those categories.
If Paradox Engine is able to ruin a game of mine it means I let someone have insane amount of ramp and access to card draw with no repercussions, which is on me as a player to be better about.
I tried playing Paradox engine in two different decks and both times the card strait up won me the game. All it requires is a couple mana rocks and some draw power. The first time I tried it, I was playing a wheel deck with Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix and Vial Smasher the Fierce. I think I had one or two rocks out with Kydele and that was enough. I decided to pull Paradox Engine from the deck after that.
My second attempt to use Paradox was in a Samut, Voice of Dissent deck with a bunch of creatures with tap abilities. I dropped Paradox and was able to win that turn with Selvala, Heart of the Wilds and a couple draw spells. I pulled it from the deck after that. The card is just too good and even without trying to build combo, it ends up doing exactly that.
I loved Prophet of Kruphix but it wasn't near as busted as Paradox Engine is. There were plenty of times where I didn't win with Prophet and even when I did, it typically took a full round of turns where my opponents had a chance to deal with Prophet. Paradox typically wins without instant speed removal.
A couple mana rocks and consistent draw power are not an easy accomplishment in most decks. Just my 2cents.
There has to be a 3rd card, a haste enabler involved, otherwise your attacking with a large Hoof, which is unspectacular at best. I mean, to entwine T&N with 9 lands, your attacking with a 15/15 Trampler. For 11, you get a permanent 15/15 with upside to boot in Worldspine Wurm... To further that point, I routinely attack with a 10+ power creature in my Xenogod deck, and I spend a heck of a lot less mana than 9 to do so.
I just don't see how he's an issue, obviously. There are answers. There are strategies that neuter him. There are strategies that make him totally useless. The only time I could see him being an issue is if the rest of the table does nothing to impact their board at all, which is hard to imagine, even for a "casual" table.
My point was a board with maybe 1-3 small creatures suddenly becomes an issue right away with the T&N resolution for those targets. Assuming you have 7 lands and a Sol ring, including the Hulk as an attacker you go, in order of # of available attacking creatures, from 14 power (Hoof alone), to 26 (Hoof + a 1/1), then to 37 (Hoof + 2 1/1's), and finally to 56 power (Hoof + 3 1/1's).
I get you're adding cards to get lethal and it's silly to say a card needs to be banned in those situations (when lethal takes a decent board state), but again the problem to me is that a stale, 3 1/1's in play board state (an arbitrary example) immediately became 56 power to fire at people. To me, that isn't something normally accomplished by other cards and is something that could need to be addressed - either the card itself or the tutor mechanic to suddenly cause that change.
Ok, you dissected, so where is the problem with that?
Honestly, yeah I probably would "windmill slam" a wrath at that point. Because this is multi-player, I'm sure I'd catch a few other "problems" with it as well. Considering that 5 creatures enables Beastmaster Ascesion, creates a swarm of 4/4 tramplers with Overrun, etc., I'd be doing myself a disservice by allowing that player to proceed with his game plan.
Also, for this to be a problem, it has to kill you. I could list pages worth of interactions that "almost" get the job done.
Just take a step back and think of how many resources are going into a Craterhoof board kill. Being a proactive opponent, it should never get to that point, and if it does, you were probably going to be dead soon anyways.
Slight correction, it takes 7, attack ready, 1/1's to suddenly make Beastmaster Ascension be a threat. But I will agree, I would also strongly be considering a windmill slam of a wrath if I saw a board loaded with creatures simply because I know several spells, all of them previously discussed here, that could make those dudes lethal.
The issue I have with Hoof in general is the interaction of him + Avenger of Zendikar off an entwined Tooth and Nail. Now, a lot of the severity of that play is depending on land count and initial creatures, but I can say without a doubt that resolving T&N for those two creatures is the #1 method people are killed (or tables are wiped) in the semi-casual games I play. I know all groups are not made equal, but I feel like Hoof plays are probably a regular thing many people experience. Back to the example though, I personally say T&N is the problem card but knowing that the RC has unbanned Protean Hulk, I doubt this card will ever be 'addressed' down the road. This is why Hoof will always fall into the area of a card I would love to see gone, but won't be shocked if it is never touched.
I honestly don't care if Wizards chooses to push this banlist onto paper multiplayer Commander. In some ways it is better, in other ways it is worse. It solves some of the problems that I have with the current multiplayer banlist - Fast Mana, Necropotence, Hermit Druid, but at the same time creates new problems - Upheaval, Primeval Titan, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Sylvan Primordial, and ignores some rather glaring problems - Iona, Shield of Emeria.
Are they for sure getting rid of the established banlist or just adding to it? I couldn't quite tell based on their official post (or I skim read too quickly...)
They're replacing it on MTGO only.
Than I completely agree with you - there are some cards added back into the fold that are going to be issues, most notably PrimeTime and Prophet. I imagine emergency bans will take place shortly to address that.
At the same time, I am also pissed that 2/3 of my decks on MTGO (Derevi Bird Tribal and Zur Astral Slide) just got destroyed because the Commanders were removed. I get the issue they are for 1v1, and that even in multiplayer they can be brutal, but applying the same BL of 1v1 for multiplayer is recipe for disaster and I am one of probably few (because I intentionally played 2 commanders as not oppressive) that just lost out big on decks :/
I honestly don't care if Wizards chooses to push this banlist onto paper multiplayer Commander. In some ways it is better, in other ways it is worse. It solves some of the problems that I have with the current multiplayer banlist - Fast Mana, Necropotence, Hermit Druid, but at the same time creates new problems - Upheaval, Primeval Titan, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Sylvan Primordial, and ignores some rather glaring problems - Iona, Shield of Emeria.
Are they for sure getting rid of the established banlist or just adding to it? I couldn't quite tell based on their official post (or I skim read too quickly...)
Have you ever been interested in being a part of the team that manages the [Primer] application process? Well guess what, we're looking for people that would like to join us! We're a rag-tag group of Commander players that have our own Primers, though having one is not a requirement to join, and we work as a team to maintain the Primer quality on MTGSalvation.
What we do:
We review user applications to have their decklist thread become a Primer based on the guidelines found here.
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Committee time commitment is roughly one hour a week checking the sub-forum, reviewing applications, and assisting with QA checks.
If you're interested, please create a post in the Primer Committee sub-forum, found here, with the title as [your username]'s Primer Committee Application, and tell us a little about yourself and why you're interested!
If you have any questions, feel free to contact any of the following Committee members:
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Also I feel like the art shows what happens when you cast Giant Growth on a dismembered *****. Bleugh.
This made me laugh WAY too hard lol... But seconding your point Professor, the card is a boring wincon for creature decks and is more of a 'problem' in areas where people play non-interactive, battle-cruiser, Commander. I'd be happy to see it leave, but not at the forefront trying to push for it to go.
ISB, your point is valid. Partial Paris let you increase the average quantity of a specific type of card in your opening hand, compared to the standard mulligan. This has a direct effect on the potency of Academy in the early game; the same decks will find fewer cheap artifacts in the early turns to power their Academies.
I do not feel as strongly about Academy as I do certain other cards on the ban list, but I still believe the Academy ban is collateral damage from the presence of certain controversial artifacts.
Bonus question: Can anyone give a realistic example of Academy tapping for problematic amounts, without resorting to fast mana?
My hunch is that if you are playing fair, Academy is both slower than Gaea's Cradle and less reliable than Urborg-Coffers.
I didn't get exactly into specific hands, but I did a generic percentage on the likelihood of being able to hit high amounts of mana early.
I appreciated Sheldon's input a couple posts back, but frankly I disagree entirely on his point and I don't think the statistics support his statement - cramming low cost creatures can turn into big creatures very easily off the backs of the numerous Overrun-type cards and the ramp Cradle provides ensures you can smash someone extremely quickly. In my experiences, I get so much value out of an early Gaea's Cradle in my Selvala, Explorer Returned deck due to the numerous 1 and 2 drop creatures the deck runs, which I don't consider to be 'God Hands'. A T3 tap for 3 G is not uncommon or unheard of to do for my deck.
Where the argument has some vague validity is in leveraging U mana is more 'deadly/broken/unfair' than the same amount of G mana on the same turn. But if that was a true component of the banning, I would think it would need to be addressed in the reasons for bans.
To whomever reads this material and finds any future inspirations, I am glad you utilized my thread in any way possible. May your future games go awesomely!
To whomever reads this material and finds any future inspirations, I am glad you utilized my thread in any way possible. May your future games go awesomely!
I'll definitely be trying it out for sure
If Paradox Engine is able to ruin a game of mine it means I let someone have insane amount of ramp and access to card draw with no repercussions, which is on me as a player to be better about.
I get you're adding cards to get lethal and it's silly to say a card needs to be banned in those situations (when lethal takes a decent board state), but again the problem to me is that a stale, 3 1/1's in play board state (an arbitrary example) immediately became 56 power to fire at people. To me, that isn't something normally accomplished by other cards and is something that could need to be addressed - either the card itself or the tutor mechanic to suddenly cause that change.
The issue I have with Hoof in general is the interaction of him + Avenger of Zendikar off an entwined Tooth and Nail. Now, a lot of the severity of that play is depending on land count and initial creatures, but I can say without a doubt that resolving T&N for those two creatures is the #1 method people are killed (or tables are wiped) in the semi-casual games I play. I know all groups are not made equal, but I feel like Hoof plays are probably a regular thing many people experience. Back to the example though, I personally say T&N is the problem card but knowing that the RC has unbanned Protean Hulk, I doubt this card will ever be 'addressed' down the road. This is why Hoof will always fall into the area of a card I would love to see gone, but won't be shocked if it is never touched.
At the same time, I am also pissed that 2/3 of my decks on MTGO (Derevi Bird Tribal and Zur Astral Slide) just got destroyed because the Commanders were removed. I get the issue they are for 1v1, and that even in multiplayer they can be brutal, but applying the same BL of 1v1 for multiplayer is recipe for disaster and I am one of probably few (because I intentionally played 2 commanders as not oppressive) that just lost out big on decks :/
What we do:
If you're interested, please create a post in the Primer Committee sub-forum, found here, with the title as [your username]'s Primer Committee Application, and tell us a little about yourself and why you're interested!
If you have any questions, feel free to contact any of the following Committee members:
gromgrom
jenncertainty
OutcryQQ
razzliox
scoeri
Ulka
VashBismark
I appreciated Sheldon's input a couple posts back, but frankly I disagree entirely on his point and I don't think the statistics support his statement - cramming low cost creatures can turn into big creatures very easily off the backs of the numerous Overrun-type cards and the ramp Cradle provides ensures you can smash someone extremely quickly. In my experiences, I get so much value out of an early Gaea's Cradle in my Selvala, Explorer Returned deck due to the numerous 1 and 2 drop creatures the deck runs, which I don't consider to be 'God Hands'. A T3 tap for 3 G is not uncommon or unheard of to do for my deck.
Where the argument has some vague validity is in leveraging U mana is more 'deadly/broken/unfair' than the same amount of G mana on the same turn. But if that was a true component of the banning, I would think it would need to be addressed in the reasons for bans.