I lost my first match on Cockatrice with my BGw junk variant today.
Game one was petty even until he got out a bow with Archangel of Thune. I had a reaper, caryatid and Scooze to his Angel and Caryatid. For the next few turns I could only draw lands and even with read the bones I couldn't find the removal I needed.
In game two I got land screwed and had to mulligan twice. At this point I realize that he is playing a token deck as Advent of the Wurm and trostrani land quickly. I had a turn 4 demon out and managed to remove trostrani. He finds another archangel of thune and when I get removal he uses root born defense and that is pretty much all she wrote. I was kicking myself for siding out my Gaze because in the first game I saw no tokens and I wanted a way to get rid of the angels and bow.
Live and learn I guess. I am seriously second guessing Vraska in my sideboard. I will have to test out some Elspeth once I get my hands on her.
Vraska is only good against really slow decks. Not really playable in my opinion.
Isn't he a 5 mana doomblade? (how many times do we have 7 creatures in the grave?)
Usually used to break a line of defenders to finish off the game in a turn or two. You could also sacrifice it and use Whip of Erebos to use his ETB a second time, deal 5 damage, and gain 5.
if you play a gate/temple t1, you still put the 2drop on turn2. (regarding you have a land drop untapped - the same scenario with the elf).
but i can still play voice t2/doomblade if i drop the tapped land t1. if i have 2 tapped lands to play, having the elf its the same. if i have just one, having the elf its still the same at t2.
i prefer the new utopia tree than mystic elf.
i belive mystic elf doesn't belong in this deck, and time will prove me wrong/right.
You are either playing too many taplands or having really bad luck if all the land in your opening hand is tap lands. I'm not sure on the number of taplands can reliably have. Dan Musser had 4, some people say 6 is the extent you can go.
And as TakeYourShoesOff said, it can allow you to play on a normal land drop tempo if you do get a crazy amount of taplands early on. You don't have to play a tapland turn one. The better play would be to do a regular/shock land, play elvish mystic, then play a tapland turn 2. Your scenario is confusing, since it assumes you have at least one land that can come in untapped in your example with out the elf, and none if you do have an elf.
And the combination of Elf and Sylvan Caryatid allows you to drop 5 cmc on turn 3. or if you are extremely luck a 6cmc.
I'm confused by the inclusion of sylvan caryatid when your deck is very heavy on 2cmc, 14 in total. With another 10 3 cmc that you could play on turn two if you get an elvish mystic out turn one. You only have 8 cards that are 4+ cmc. You have so many turn 2 plays that are better then a sylvan caryatid, which is useful for a more later game oriented decks. On turn 2 you will want to play Voice of Resurgence, Loxodon Smiter, Sin Collector, or Scavenging Ooze instead of a sylvan. If I were you, I would put in some later game threats and remove some of your one/two of that you have at 2cmc. Or remove the caryatid and add some more aggresive cards, like maybe fleecemane lion. Though this is just some minor tweaking of changing 1-4 cards and if you like having a lower mana curve then you can run it. You should always play something you are happy with.
Yeah i dont get that. If you look at say this past weekends BW list, we are essentially taking out some removal and MD discard, and replacing it with mana dorks and loxodon smiters.....how is this strategy better against control...4 md sin colelctors and 3-4 md thoughtseize are controls worst nightmare...especially blue/rev decks.
Sylvan caryatid seems pretty good against rdw...and pretty good for dropping a DD on turn 2...but top decking this or an elvish mystic late game is pretty much a wasted draw step.
Green is basically here for ramp...and i get that. My concern is i think id rather be taking threats out of their hand early instead of trying to cheat a DD in one turn wuicker...just a thought.
I assumed a lot of lists would be running scavenging ooze...i see a lot of deck lists without it tho. Am IO missing something here? Decks are full of removal and creatures like DD that outclass anything at the 4cmc spot....seems like ooze could get out of control; not to mention it really hurts other black based control decks running whip...
The amount of removal varies from list to list. Some people play more, some less. It is up to their play style and meta. and the sideboard is made for different matchups. Main decking toughtseize in junk midrange would be a thing if it wasn't for the high amount of aggro people are feeling like they will be playing. Dan Musser even played 2 Sin Collector main board. Being able to play a creature that can't be countered is pretty powerful against a control deck. Along with the fact that Loxodon Smiter is aggressively priced so that it can put out an early threat. Instant speed creatures in the form of Advent of the Wurm are also though for control decks to deal with. And putting down your big threats on turn three can really hurt control, especially if you put down something like Blood Baron of Vizkopa or Obzedat, Ghost Council.
Top decking useless cards is part of magic and you have to play around it. Like Top decking an obzedat after already playing an obzedat. or drawing thoughtseize late game, especially if your opponent is playing on the draw or would gladly play a counterspell at that point to protect something in their hand.
Again, you could be playing thoughtseize MD if you want. Its a judgement call based on what you will be facing. Like playing 4 Sin Collector in main deck when you can be facing decks that have little to no instant or sorcery in their main deck. Like some mono green or gruul aggro decks. And you aren't only playing a Desecration Demon a turn earlier. You could be playing big threats like Obzedat or Blood Baron a whole 2 turns earlier.
Ooze does seem some moderate play. But as you said, there is a lot of removal that can hit it. And not a lot of incentive to taking creatures out of the graveyard since Unburial Rites is no longer in Standard. It could see a resurgence because of Whip of Erebos as you said, but it depends on the meta. 2nd place of the SCG open at cleveland ran ooze main deck.
Really it just comes down to your play style and what you like to play. Its too early to say that this deck is totally better then that deck. We could see even better decks come along that would blow bot B/W and Junk midrange out of the water. I prefer Junk because it gives me more options to play with. I have even played 5 color control and Omni door when they were in standard.
What are the advantages to the junk build vs just bw midrange? I see lists all over the place in regards to card selection in this thread. Im just curious if its worth stretching the mana base to run the third color?
Adding Green gives you access to things like Loxodon Smiter, Abrupt Decay, Advent of the Wurm, Boon Satyr, and mana accleration/fixing for that third color. Its better against control and other midrange decks. Though I would say BW would probably be better against aggro because of its simpler mana base.
This is what I have been play testing with my friend who is about to go to PT Theros. The surprise favorite for me is Sylvan Caryatid. Not only does it help with mana acceleration and mana fixing which 3 color desperately needs, it is a wonderful defender. It easily blocks most RDW creatures, can't be removed except by an anger of the gods or overloaded Mizzium Mortars, and can't be targeted by Firefist Striker. I've even been able to power out turn 3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion with 2 Elvish Mystics and a Sylvan Caryatid. Though that is extremely rare, only about a 5% chance of it happening with my current deck.
My biggest problem has been dealing with Ætherling. The only way I can seem to beat him is to win the game before my opponent can put me onto a clock with him. Which can be extended if i get a Blood Baron or a Whip of Erebos out. How are you guys dealing with him?
Hi, everyone. I'm currently playing GW Aggro, but I'm seriously considering switching to Junk to take advantage of all the sweet removal and disruption in black, where it is seriously lacking in GW.
I am very concerned, however, about the amount of damage I will have to take from lands to keep things running smoothly. Here is the list I think I'll be sleeving up:
After some playtesting, I'm taking 4 damage on average to keep up a T1 and T2 play. If I'm playing against a slower deck, usually 2-4 damage through lands after a T1 tapped shockland. Is this average, and is this manageable in the long-game? I haven't played 3 colors very much, and before I sleeve up I'd like some people to tell me their results with life totals and a 3 color manabase.
I do have Ooze to gobble Decayed and Bladed critters to gain back some life, but is this enough at FNM?
Thanks.
With your lands, thoughtseize isn't going to do you much good except against control. And having it as a one of isn't worth it. Same with Read the Bones.
I would drop putrefy in favor of Hero's Downfall. Most enchantments you will run into will be 3 cmc or less, ie Detention Sphere and Chained to the Rocks. If you are worried, you can keep putrefy in your side board. Better yet, you can put golgari charm in your side board. It will also double as a sweeper defense instead of rootborn defense, albeit you won't be able to populate. But you have more choices and cheaper cost.
edit: just remembered that putrefy is destroy artifact/creature, not enchantment. But I still think putrefy is better off in the side board and golgari charm is still a good side board card.
One thing that is interesting about the SCG Cleveland top 8 list is no mainboard draw that I saw. I am currently MB 2x underworld connections and I am not sure if I want more draw. I have been following the rock thread and most of those decks are running 2x underworld connections and 3x read the bones. But they are digging more for the Gray Merchant. So do you guys think in a deck that isn't looking for devotion, is Read the bones or underworld connections better?
The reason why you don't see junk with read the bones or underworld connections is that it has to run 12 shocklands. And sacrificing more health to draw cards puts you in a very precarious spot against aggro and other midrange decks. Though its not too bad against control decks.
Glad to see other people are interested in the deck though.
Also very happy to see it succeed.
I noticed, which is why I deleted it.
Though I think Voice of Resurgence should be dropped for Blood Baron of Vizkopa. He already has a ton of two drops and the games he did play it, VoR had very little impact. While Blood Baron is very strong, stabilizes the board when he hits, and only really falls to mizzium mortars.
Definetly proven
- Esper Control
- U/W Control
- RDW
Maybe, depends on the SCG open and need more results
- Naya
- Gruul
- G/W
- Junk
Definetly not proven material
- U/W/R Control
- Jund
Though this is still pretty early in this standard and all of this could change in a couple weeks.
I was just saying the exact same thing to a buddy of mine about how absolutely awesome Theros has been and what a great standard season this is shaping up to be.
While Im not really a big fan of Esper I'm sure this isn't the last we've seen of those type of control decks. They'll adjust and be back again at the pro tour next week, which only makes the format even more healthy than it already is.
Really am enjoying Theros, more than any other set in recent memory actually (and I've been playing a long, LONG, time)....
I personally think that the reason why we don't see a lot of control up top is everyone was ready for them and rdw. Which didn't have a strong showing either. Also those three decks played off each other quite a bit. esper beats UW, UW beats rdw, rdw beats esper.
Players are allowed access to a Gatherer definition of a card at any time during a game.
The vast majority of US players have smartphones.
You can also ask a judge to give you that definition if you want. Though it is really annoying when someone plays a really complicated and/or rarely played card in a foreign language.
Vraska is only good against really slow decks. Not really playable in my opinion.
I think he was talking about the sacrifice trigger, not the ETB.
Usually used to break a line of defenders to finish off the game in a turn or two. You could also sacrifice it and use Whip of Erebos to use his ETB a second time, deal 5 damage, and gain 5.
You are either playing too many taplands or having really bad luck if all the land in your opening hand is tap lands. I'm not sure on the number of taplands can reliably have. Dan Musser had 4, some people say 6 is the extent you can go.
And as TakeYourShoesOff said, it can allow you to play on a normal land drop tempo if you do get a crazy amount of taplands early on. You don't have to play a tapland turn one. The better play would be to do a regular/shock land, play elvish mystic, then play a tapland turn 2. Your scenario is confusing, since it assumes you have at least one land that can come in untapped in your example with out the elf, and none if you do have an elf.
And the combination of Elf and Sylvan Caryatid allows you to drop 5 cmc on turn 3. or if you are extremely luck a 6cmc.
I'm confused by the inclusion of sylvan caryatid when your deck is very heavy on 2cmc, 14 in total. With another 10 3 cmc that you could play on turn two if you get an elvish mystic out turn one. You only have 8 cards that are 4+ cmc. You have so many turn 2 plays that are better then a sylvan caryatid, which is useful for a more later game oriented decks. On turn 2 you will want to play Voice of Resurgence, Loxodon Smiter, Sin Collector, or Scavenging Ooze instead of a sylvan. If I were you, I would put in some later game threats and remove some of your one/two of that you have at 2cmc. Or remove the caryatid and add some more aggresive cards, like maybe fleecemane lion. Though this is just some minor tweaking of changing 1-4 cards and if you like having a lower mana curve then you can run it. You should always play something you are happy with.
The amount of removal varies from list to list. Some people play more, some less. It is up to their play style and meta. and the sideboard is made for different matchups. Main decking toughtseize in junk midrange would be a thing if it wasn't for the high amount of aggro people are feeling like they will be playing. Dan Musser even played 2 Sin Collector main board. Being able to play a creature that can't be countered is pretty powerful against a control deck. Along with the fact that Loxodon Smiter is aggressively priced so that it can put out an early threat. Instant speed creatures in the form of Advent of the Wurm are also though for control decks to deal with. And putting down your big threats on turn three can really hurt control, especially if you put down something like Blood Baron of Vizkopa or Obzedat, Ghost Council.
Top decking useless cards is part of magic and you have to play around it. Like Top decking an obzedat after already playing an obzedat. or drawing thoughtseize late game, especially if your opponent is playing on the draw or would gladly play a counterspell at that point to protect something in their hand.
Again, you could be playing thoughtseize MD if you want. Its a judgement call based on what you will be facing. Like playing 4 Sin Collector in main deck when you can be facing decks that have little to no instant or sorcery in their main deck. Like some mono green or gruul aggro decks. And you aren't only playing a Desecration Demon a turn earlier. You could be playing big threats like Obzedat or Blood Baron a whole 2 turns earlier.
Ooze does seem some moderate play. But as you said, there is a lot of removal that can hit it. And not a lot of incentive to taking creatures out of the graveyard since Unburial Rites is no longer in Standard. It could see a resurgence because of Whip of Erebos as you said, but it depends on the meta. 2nd place of the SCG open at cleveland ran ooze main deck.
Really it just comes down to your play style and what you like to play. Its too early to say that this deck is totally better then that deck. We could see even better decks come along that would blow bot B/W and Junk midrange out of the water. I prefer Junk because it gives me more options to play with. I have even played 5 color control and Omni door when they were in standard.
Adding Green gives you access to things like Loxodon Smiter, Abrupt Decay, Advent of the Wurm, Boon Satyr, and mana accleration/fixing for that third color. Its better against control and other midrange decks. Though I would say BW would probably be better against aggro because of its simpler mana base.
I have to say that I forgot about those two cards for control match ups. Big over-site on my part.
4 Swamp
2 plains
4 forest
4 temple of silence
4 overgrown tomb
4 temple garden
4 godless shrine
Creatures
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Slyvan Caryatid
4 Desecration Demon
4 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Spells
2 Hero's downfall
2 Doom Blade
2 Whip of Erebos
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Advent of the Wurm
4 Precinct Captain
4 Golgari Charm
2 Soldier of the Pantheon
3 putrefy
This is what I have been play testing with my friend who is about to go to PT Theros. The surprise favorite for me is Sylvan Caryatid. Not only does it help with mana acceleration and mana fixing which 3 color desperately needs, it is a wonderful defender. It easily blocks most RDW creatures, can't be removed except by an anger of the gods or overloaded Mizzium Mortars, and can't be targeted by Firefist Striker. I've even been able to power out turn 3 Elspeth, Sun's Champion with 2 Elvish Mystics and a Sylvan Caryatid. Though that is extremely rare, only about a 5% chance of it happening with my current deck.
Thinking of droppping 1 or 2 Blood Barons for another Elspeth and another Obzedat, Ghost Council or another Advent of the Wurm.
My biggest problem has been dealing with Ætherling. The only way I can seem to beat him is to win the game before my opponent can put me onto a clock with him. Which can be extended if i get a Blood Baron or a Whip of Erebos out. How are you guys dealing with him?
With your lands, thoughtseize isn't going to do you much good except against control. And having it as a one of isn't worth it. Same with Read the Bones.
As Complex pants said, you want some ramp. Elvish Mystic and Sylvan Caryatid are very powerful and can power out things like turn 3 obzedat, ghost council or Blood Baron of Vizkopa. If you want to keep Polukranos, mana ramp is really good for his monstrous ability.
I would drop putrefy in favor of Hero's Downfall. Most enchantments you will run into will be 3 cmc or less, ie Detention Sphere and Chained to the Rocks. If you are worried, you can keep putrefy in your side board. Better yet, you can put golgari charm in your side board. It will also double as a sweeper defense instead of rootborn defense, albeit you won't be able to populate. But you have more choices and cheaper cost.
edit: just remembered that putrefy is destroy artifact/creature, not enchantment. But I still think putrefy is better off in the side board and golgari charm is still a good side board card.
The reason why you don't see junk with read the bones or underworld connections is that it has to run 12 shocklands. And sacrificing more health to draw cards puts you in a very precarious spot against aggro and other midrange decks. Though its not too bad against control decks.
I noticed, which is why I deleted it.
Though I think Voice of Resurgence should be dropped for Blood Baron of Vizkopa. He already has a ton of two drops and the games he did play it, VoR had very little impact. While Blood Baron is very strong, stabilizes the board when he hits, and only really falls to mizzium mortars.
- Esper Control
- U/W Control
- RDW
Maybe, depends on the SCG open and need more results
- Naya
- Gruul
- G/W
- Junk
Definetly not proven material
- U/W/R Control
- Jund
Though this is still pretty early in this standard and all of this could change in a couple weeks.
I personally think that the reason why we don't see a lot of control up top is everyone was ready for them and rdw. Which didn't have a strong showing either. Also those three decks played off each other quite a bit. esper beats UW, UW beats rdw, rdw beats esper.
You can also ask a judge to give you that definition if you want. Though it is really annoying when someone plays a really complicated and/or rarely played card in a foreign language.