So what's the thought on Inkmoth Nexus instead of Factory? If you're recurring it as a chump it leaves tokens, kills as fast as a single factory, flies over moat. Anyone thing this is worth playing?
Nah, the problem is the interactivity with other kill conditions. What happens if it gets StP'd/P2E'd? You'll feel like an idiot chipping away at 20 Life with Gargoyle Castle or some other win condition while they sit there with 6 useless poison counters.
@IMorphling
Going below 8 one mana cantrips is a really bad idea. You need to be able to sculpt your hand to be able to consistently go off. You also don't need more than 16-18 land in Sorcery speed tide builds. Personally I run an 8 island/8 fetch split and rarely have any mana problems. As for defense, Forces and Remand are more than enough, and Remand can serve multiple roles in the deck as well. Also, if you are splashing green you may want to try Explore in place of Summer bloom. While it can't have you drop a lot of lands, it cantrips which I've found from experiences to be very helpful.
Valid points. My logic on Bloom and the higher land count is this:
1) With 1 high tide active (generally the case early in the combo, when things matter most), 1 land drop has the same mana generation potential as a fae. With 4 Summer Bloom, I don't see 20 Land as excessive therefore, because each land can basically act like a Cloud of Faeries in terms of net mana generated. Furthermore, the land drop is actually much better than Faeries since it also vastly increases the potency of Time Spiral and Turnabout. Hence, if you conclude that Faeries are worth it for the deck, I'm pretty sure Bloom and the extra lands are DEFINITELY worth it.
2) The one card drawn off of Explore seems like a very, very poor deal. You have much more efficient card draw engines (Ideas Unbound/Meditate both cost 1 mana per card advantage gained). Bloom seems much better because it lets those cards do what they do best. Explore just seems mediocre at both drawing and land dropping, and although it's not a bad card I'd much rather have a bloom and know that I'll be able to drop most of the lands in a subsequent spiral / meditate.
Here's what I'm thinking. SB in a Stroke of Genius in case they have anti-mill.
Force of Will + Pact of Negation is plenty of defense, with Force being extremely useful against faster decks like Belcher. SB in a 4th FoW against Belcher/Ad Naseum ect.
Summer Bloom lets you go crazy with Time Spiral, and it's good even if you don't draw Spiral.
This list doesn't add to 60 because Time Spiral is counted under two sections.
black vise and world gorgor will never be unbanned
talking 3 damage on turn 1 is just cheap in my opinion, even before playing a move.
also, have you seen the insane combos with world gorgor, animate dead, wu spy, or bane fire?
Ugh, I don't like this logic and I hear it all the time.
If you start with Black Vise in your hand and go first, maybe it will do 5-6 damage. But plenty of time you will draw it and it will do nothing. Plus, if you aren't going first it is much, much worse. Even if you draw it in your opening hand and you are going second, it might do only 3 or so damage - and beyond turn 1 it's a terrible draw. Therefore, on average, it probably does quite a bit less than that, maybe around 3 damage. Not that great, when cards like Lightning Bolt are far more versatile.
I also don't think it's strong enough to build a deck around...not worth it to play suboptimal cards just to exploit Vise.
Here's what I've been thinking of - how about replacing Intuition/Bob with Enlightened Tutor. It's a lot faster than Intuition and it can get Crucible, Exploration, Manabond, and a bunch of nice 1-ofs like Ensnaring Bridge, Orb, Smokestack, ect. It seems like GUB, GUW, and GUR are all viable variants. In comparison to gamble, the advantage here is that you can thin the number of manabonds/explorations you play (so you don't have redundant cards in hand, and have space for other things). Fetching those with gamble is quite risky if you thin the number you play.
I've always found it annoying to have Intuition in an opening hand with Manabond - it slows down the use of manabond too much sometimes. Enlightened Tutor wouldn't be nearly as big of a problem. Tutor also helps a bunch in games 2 and 3 with the sideboard options it allows. With 4 Tutor and 4 Tolaria West, getting the Orb+Chasm+(Loam/Crucible) combo is a lot easier as well.
I'm also testing out the following UG variant with Treasure Hunt. Treasure Hunt actually gives more card advantage than Life from the Loam here (draws more than 3.5 cards on average), although Loam is of course recurring and awesome. Treasure hunt is definitely better than Mulch:
I made some changes to my W-splashed MUC in order to rend it lighter and a little more " universal "
In the specific I add 3 trinket mage + 3 trinket targets (+ 3 E.E. also) to encrease also the card atvantage (14 cards say "draw")
- Obviously is still a deck ment to defeat aggro and aggro control decks.
(peacekeeper is there vs merfolk, dredge and show and tell decks)
- I think it has quite good chance against other control decks even with 8 counters only (side 4 meddling + 2 b2b +1 ray of distorsion for 7 anti-creatures cards)
- It has quite bad combo match up. (side + 4 meddling + 2 b2b + 1 CotV - 2 path - 2 StP - 3 shackles)
My votes to consider for unbanning. My list goes from most reasonable to least reasonable (i.e. I consider Black Vise the most reasonable to unban):
1. Black Vise
2. Hermit Druid
3. Worldgorger Dragon
4. Earthcraft
5. Mind Twist
6. Mystical Tutor
7. Frantic Search
8. Land Tax
9. Vampiric Tutor
10. Memory Jar
I realize pretty much everyone would disagree with unbanning Memory Jar or Vampiric Tutor. I think that Tutor isn't nearly as broken in Legacy as Vintage, though. Memory Jar at five mana is strong - but is it really better than Time Spiral? Each has their strengths and weaknesses. I don't want Skullclamped unbanned just because it would make StP/P2E way better compared to other removal (Snuff Out, ect). Those cards are strong enough as they are, and unbanning Clamp would just dilute the diversity of the metagame.
So if you're running Factory as a kill condition that taps for mana, why not run Keldon Megaliths?
Megaliths is very mediocre.
1) It citp
2) You need to be playing red (there's some good stuff like Gamble / Burning Wish but it's definitely not an automatic color)
3) Costs 2 to activate, only does one damage.
4) Having Hellbent is a big assumption. You can't count of getting Manabond, and Life from the loam usually keeps your hand pretty full if you don't have bond in play.
Only real advantage is the versalitiy of pinging anything.
Well, I think Worm Harvest is better than relying on getting Dark Depths+Hezmage. Personally I wouldn't run Worm Harvest though. I'd rather have Gargoyle Castle and Factory, since they are actually lands and tutorable.
Just wondering, if you are already running the stronghold, why not run depths/hexmage? Seems better than gargoyle castle, anyway.
The problem is hexmage is a dead draw w/out Dark Depth, and if you only play 1 Hexmage you have no way to tutor it so the only way to get it is through lucky dredging/drawing and having both Stronghold and Dark Depths in hand/play/grave. Plus, then why not play Wurm Calling which can give you a bunch of 1/1s if you dredge it into your grave, while with Hexmage you need the combo for it to be worthwhile.Wurm Calling you don't need either Dark Depths or Stronghold.
1. Drop the Tolaria West. It's fun, but a limited 3 mana sorcery speed tutor ain't worth it, even if it can be a cipt land instead. I know, Crucible+Tolaria is lolz, but they are both 1-ofs, so it generally won't happen. Too slow. Add another wasteland instead.
2. You should have 4 standstill in your list, it's such a nice draw spell.
3. My opinion on cunning wish is that if you're gonna run it and build your SB around it, you might as well run 4. I'd say run 4 or 0 - my advice is 0. Cut they 2 wishes and you can play a better sideboard that's more useful in games 2 and 3. Plus, Wish is fun but a little slow. For 1 more mana, you could play Fact or Fiction!
I've been running a creature heavy version of this with Terravore. Terravore is a great card for this deck imo (your fetchlands+his fetchs+wastelands on both sides + knight of the reliquary fetchning wastelands (gives terravore +3/+3)), and gets much much larger than knight. It's a great finisher, especially with the trample.
I was also thinking Unearth might be a cool card to try, but it dilutes your threats too much imo (sometimes it'll be a dead draw and you wish you just had more threats instead).
The sb is quite thrown together.
I like the Hierarchs / BoPs since they make the deck a lot faster - drop a 3cc on turn 2 and two 2cc on turn 3. BoP is probably the most questionable choice, though. Pridemage I feel can cover a lot of the same ground as Vindicate but keep the deck more aggresive.
Kor Haven might be a decent 1 of. It has some advantages compared to Maze, namely it generates mana, it doesn't untap an opponent's attacking creature and it lets you kill an attacker if you block and haven it The disadvantages are, of course, the activation cost and you can't protect your own attackers.
Nah, the problem is the interactivity with other kill conditions. What happens if it gets StP'd/P2E'd? You'll feel like an idiot chipping away at 20 Life with Gargoyle Castle or some other win condition while they sit there with 6 useless poison counters.
Valid points. My logic on Bloom and the higher land count is this:
1) With 1 high tide active (generally the case early in the combo, when things matter most), 1 land drop has the same mana generation potential as a fae. With 4 Summer Bloom, I don't see 20 Land as excessive therefore, because each land can basically act like a Cloud of Faeries in terms of net mana generated. Furthermore, the land drop is actually much better than Faeries since it also vastly increases the potency of Time Spiral and Turnabout. Hence, if you conclude that Faeries are worth it for the deck, I'm pretty sure Bloom and the extra lands are DEFINITELY worth it.
2) The one card drawn off of Explore seems like a very, very poor deal. You have much more efficient card draw engines (Ideas Unbound/Meditate both cost 1 mana per card advantage gained). Bloom seems much better because it lets those cards do what they do best. Explore just seems mediocre at both drawing and land dropping, and although it's not a bad card I'd much rather have a bloom and know that I'll be able to drop most of the lands in a subsequent spiral / meditate.
Force of Will + Pact of Negation is plenty of defense, with Force being extremely useful against faster decks like Belcher. SB in a 4th FoW against Belcher/Ad Naseum ect.
Summer Bloom lets you go crazy with Time Spiral, and it's good even if you don't draw Spiral.
This list doesn't add to 60 because Time Spiral is counted under two sections.
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
8 Island
4 High Tide
4 Summer Bloom
3 Cloud of Faeries
4 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
4 Time Spiral
3 Meditate
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Ideas Unbound
3 Force of Will
1 Brain Freeze
Ugh, I don't like this logic and I hear it all the time.
If you start with Black Vise in your hand and go first, maybe it will do 5-6 damage. But plenty of time you will draw it and it will do nothing. Plus, if you aren't going first it is much, much worse. Even if you draw it in your opening hand and you are going second, it might do only 3 or so damage - and beyond turn 1 it's a terrible draw. Therefore, on average, it probably does quite a bit less than that, maybe around 3 damage. Not that great, when cards like Lightning Bolt are far more versatile.
I also don't think it's strong enough to build a deck around...not worth it to play suboptimal cards just to exploit Vise.
I've always found it annoying to have Intuition in an opening hand with Manabond - it slows down the use of manabond too much sometimes. Enlightened Tutor wouldn't be nearly as big of a problem. Tutor also helps a bunch in games 2 and 3 with the sideboard options it allows. With 4 Tutor and 4 Tolaria West, getting the Orb+Chasm+(Loam/Crucible) combo is a lot easier as well.
Preliminary idea:
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Life from the Loam
3 Manabond
2 Exploration
1 Smokestack
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
4 Mox Diamond
Lands (40):
3 Maze of Ith
1 Kor Haven
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Gargoyle Castle
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
3 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tabernacle of the Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Tolaria West
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Karakas
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Meekstone
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Moat
1 Humility
1 Trinisphere
1 Maze of Ith
I'm also testing out the following UG variant with Treasure Hunt. Treasure Hunt actually gives more card advantage than Life from the Loam here (draws more than 3.5 cards on average), although Loam is of course recurring and awesome. Treasure hunt is definitely better than Mulch:
4 Treasure Hunt
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
4 Manabond
1 Engineered Explosives
--43 Lands--
4 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tolaria West
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Savannah
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Kor Haven
1 Gargoyle Castle
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tabernacle of the Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
Eh...once you start down that road and think about it enough you just end up with Landstill or Countertop lol.
MUC's major advantage is Back to Basics. If you splash, you might as well go all the way and make a different deck.
1. Black Vise
2. Hermit Druid
3. Worldgorger Dragon
4. Earthcraft
5. Mind Twist
6. Mystical Tutor
7. Frantic Search
8. Land Tax
9. Vampiric Tutor
10. Memory Jar
I realize pretty much everyone would disagree with unbanning Memory Jar or Vampiric Tutor. I think that Tutor isn't nearly as broken in Legacy as Vintage, though. Memory Jar at five mana is strong - but is it really better than Time Spiral? Each has their strengths and weaknesses. I don't want Skullclamped unbanned just because it would make StP/P2E way better compared to other removal (Snuff Out, ect). Those cards are strong enough as they are, and unbanning Clamp would just dilute the diversity of the metagame.
Megaliths is very mediocre.
1) It citp
2) You need to be playing red (there's some good stuff like Gamble / Burning Wish but it's definitely not an automatic color)
3) Costs 2 to activate, only does one damage.
4) Having Hellbent is a big assumption. You can't count of getting Manabond, and Life from the loam usually keeps your hand pretty full if you don't have bond in play.
Only real advantage is the versalitiy of pinging anything.
Well, I think Worm Harvest is better than relying on getting Dark Depths+Hezmage. Personally I wouldn't run Worm Harvest though. I'd rather have Gargoyle Castle and Factory, since they are actually lands and tutorable.
The problem is hexmage is a dead draw w/out Dark Depth, and if you only play 1 Hexmage you have no way to tutor it so the only way to get it is through lucky dredging/drawing and having both Stronghold and Dark Depths in hand/play/grave. Plus, then why not play Wurm Calling which can give you a bunch of 1/1s if you dredge it into your grave, while with Hexmage you need the combo for it to be worthwhile.Wurm Calling you don't need either Dark Depths or Stronghold.
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tolaria West
4 Rishadan Port
4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Gargoyle Castle
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdent Catacombs
4 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
4 Manabond
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
1 Zuran Orb
3 Mox Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mutavault
1 Nantuko Monastary
1 Treetop Village
1 Karakas
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Vesuva
2 Mulch
1 Summer's Bloom
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Dust Bowl
1 Mox Diamond
Hope this helps
1. Drop the Tolaria West. It's fun, but a limited 3 mana sorcery speed tutor ain't worth it, even if it can be a cipt land instead. I know, Crucible+Tolaria is lolz, but they are both 1-ofs, so it generally won't happen. Too slow. Add another wasteland instead.
2. You should have 4 standstill in your list, it's such a nice draw spell.
3. My opinion on cunning wish is that if you're gonna run it and build your SB around it, you might as well run 4. I'd say run 4 or 0 - my advice is 0. Cut they 2 wishes and you can play a better sideboard that's more useful in games 2 and 3. Plus, Wish is fun but a little slow. For 1 more mana, you could play Fact or Fiction!
Summary:
-2 Wish
-1 Tolaria West
+1 Wasteland
+1 Standstill
+1 Spell Snare
P.S. Personally I would also recommend -1 Top +1 Counterspell, esp since you are running Enlightened Tutor, but others may disagree.
I was also thinking Unearth might be a cool card to try, but it dilutes your threats too much imo (sometimes it'll be a dead draw and you wish you just had more threats instead).
The sb is quite thrown together.
I like the Hierarchs / BoPs since they make the deck a lot faster - drop a 3cc on turn 2 and two 2cc on turn 3. BoP is probably the most questionable choice, though. Pridemage I feel can cover a lot of the same ground as Vindicate but keep the deck more aggresive.
Kor Haven might be a decent 1 of. It has some advantages compared to Maze, namely it generates mana, it doesn't untap an opponent's attacking creature and it lets you kill an attacker if you block and haven it The disadvantages are, of course, the activation cost and you can't protect your own attackers.
My decklist:
4 Verdent Catacombs
4 Windswept Hearth
4 Scrublands
4 Bayou
1 Savanah
1 Kor Haven
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Terravore
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Path to Exile
4 Thoughtseize
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Mindbreak Trap
Instant
Metalcraft — Stoic Rebuttal costs less to cast if you control three or more artifacts.
Counter target spell.