I would then look at adding Absorb and maybe even some numbers of Quench, as right now (Arena) there is a flood of very fast red decks and you'll need those points of life.
Thanks for the advice... seems reasonable to just start with that French list and work from there. Absorb seems nice. Quench in SB for what matchups? We're not running it main are we? Diet Mana Leak
Hey all...
Long time player on a hiatus - just now coming back to competitive Magic.
Not quite up on exactly what all cards are legal in the current standard format.
Someone shoot me a list worth investing the money into, that I could basically just purchase and start playing.
Been a control player since 1993, so style-wise, I am familiar with these types of decks.
Card suggestions from the new set are also welcome. I really just want to get a proven shell and go from there.
Hit me!
Thought this list was good, but leaned a little too heavily on Jace.
Entreat needs to be a 3of IMO and not running 4 Terminus in a meta full of True Name + Equipment is a mistake.
Other than that, the list is solid. Of course any list being piloted by the Duke is solid.
I played in DC this last weekend and ended up losing my win&in (as well as 1 other round) to this new Bant deck. The lists were a bit different though. One heavier white (with mother of runes and vial), the other more like the black/duke list. Both had true name. Im sure some of that will change as a "best" list becomes settled on but it was pretty difficult to play around daze, vial in stuff like teeg, force, mother, greensun for pridemage/teeg/etc. Maverick was always a pain and this seems like a harder maverick matchup. Did anyone else have trouble or experience with this matchup? Any thoughts on it?
Some of these new developments have had me switch to Esper Miracles with lots of discard, counters and Toxic Deluge / Engineered Plague, Massacre etc. With the red in standard lists only being for Pyroblast and possibly Blood Moon, the black splash seems so much better positioned against Combo, Sneak & Show and the new problem of True-Name Nemesis. Seems pretty good to switch to black.
Much better against Maverick and Bant and anything trying to play good Green value creatures. (See also Perish though the above listed options are probably better and more versatile)
Well, for me I'm sticking to Rip+Helm for DC. Open metagame means anything goes. The only card I expect to really see breakthrough is True Name Nemesis in various bug and stoneblade decks.
I know one thing, if you can pack Moat mainboard. It really just hurts so many decks. Same goes for Rip+Energy Field. Sometimes it just wins games on its own.
The other thing is Vendilion Clique. I have to play 3. Its just so amazing in so many matches its sick. I'm not even play the Lossett version of 3 vendilion clique/1 venser, but I am playing 2 Karakas (because of wasteland, Gaddock Teeg, Thaliz and Sneak and Show). If anything I might sideboard venser (since I am running O-Ring in his place because I have enlightened tutor).
Overall I like rip+helm. I also love Moat. Moat. Moat.
I made some tweaks to my list above based on some conversation today...
-1 Entreat the Angels
-1 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Unexpectedly Absent
+1 Blood Moon
+1 Energy Field
+1 Vendilion Clique
In the SB
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Pyroblast
-1 Energy Field
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Blood Moon
+1 Oblivion Ring
Just feels right to have some more silver bullets in the board for Enlightened Tutor, and O-Ring seems like a strong catch all choice. Having the 2nd clique in the main means I can free up a slot in the board.
And I just thought the 3 Pyroblasts could be better as a mix so we are on 2 F-Storm and 2 P-Blast.
And as a partial hedge for TNN making a splash I have conceded a little and went the full RIP version with 3 copies, Helm and 2 Energy Field main board.
I would play a second Karakas, but I only have one, so I am going with Academy Ruins in that slot to recur Engineered Explosives, Helm if it gets countered or yanked from my hand, Pithing Needle etc.
I went down 1 Swords and an Entreat to make room because if you have those combos in place, they can serve as a win-con and extra removal making the 4th Swords not as must have. And with the extra Clique I felt I could go to 1 Entreat.
Moat is a card that I like and then don't and go back and forth.
Right now, with Delver, Sneak & Show & Reanimator being popular, the creatures that matter in those decks all fly. (Insectile Abberation, Griselbrand and Emrakul) I just think Humility is better right now.
When Goblins, Merfolk, Maverick, Elves and Punishing decks become more popular, I might go back to Moat - for now, I will stick with Humility.
Do you have a list you can share (Razefire)?
Would love to see and compare notes...
That seems like a very good idea.
Thinking about fitting in the main.
Possibly a 2nd in the board.
Just wrecks so many decks if it sticks...
These decks just get shut off:
Esper Stone-Blade
Esper Deathblade
Shardless BUG
12 Post
RUG Delver
UWR Delver
BUG / Grixis Delver
Jund
And the Blood Moon really messes with
Mutavault
Creeping Tar Pit
City of Traitors
City of Brass
Rishadan Port
Wasteland
Ancient Tomb
Grove of the Burnwillows
Pendlehaven
Gaea's Cradle
Mishra's Factory
and on and on
and with this deck boasting 7 basics... we can really afford at the right moment to drop blood moon and have it be nearly as game over as RIP / Helm or a big Entreat... like the reach it gives.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Time to break out 2x Blood Moon
Curious... in the main what would you cut?
Looking at your list I am guessing the 3rd Counterbalance?
If not that tho - what other change might you recommend?
I ended up placing 14th at the Legacy Championships with something similar to the Joe Lossett version (I play 1-2 different cards, one of which replaces a land, because I prefer to play 22; sb deviates a bit more from his). So annoying that one of my two losses on the day was to Elves, a deck that I never lose to. The amount of play that Venser gives you is incredible. He's quickly become one of my favorite cards.
Mind sharing your list? Particularly your manabase?
Has anyone considered the possibility that you're being trolled in this thread?
Stirring up trouble? Who's the troll here?
I'm just an old school magic guy with an old school favorite card wondering if it could make the cut in any of today's meta games.
Seems like he's not, I can accept that - no need to come in and ugly up the thread with troll speech.
I do still love me some Juzam and at least will enjoy my opponent's face when I play him. Maybe that will be the turn I lose, but it will be cool to see my old friend on the board.
I figured Juzam would not really be a card anyone thought to be playable in current Legacy.
Though, to be very honest, I am still curious.
At the least, I would love to go to SCG Oakland in a few weeks and get a feature match on camera and have the commentators all excited about my spicy one-of during the coverage.
All in all, I do think he is very likely just not good enough anymore, but like Notion Thief, I will enjoy the stories I do get to tell when I "got em" with it. At least that will be fun.
Still my favorite card and magic art of all time. I am buying an absolutely perfect mint one to double sleeve up in my favorite Legacy decks and see what happens.
So... I've been playing around with Miracles for a while now and really love the deck - and it has been very cool to see some version of it in Top8 / Top16 in quite a few recent events.
I have really enjoyed some of the classic builds and lately I like what Joe Lossett has been doing with his lists. (More control, more counters, Venser)
Miracles is something I enjoy with or without Helm / RIP combo. Miracle-Blade ala Joe Bass is something I have played with as well. What I have not tried as of yet, is an Esper version of the deck that eschews red for REB / PBlast out of the SB (and possibly Blood Moon) and plays black for access to a lot of great disruption, removal and one of my favorite cards ever printed in Creeping Tar Pit. The 2 decks that Miracles seems to be a little slow to are Sneak & Storm. Black really gives us a lot of game against them.
The list I am currently toying around with is a combination of strict UW Miracle control with a strong counter package and the more "silver bullet" version with some combo pieces and Enlightened Tutor. This version also gives us a "Burning Wish-esque" SB package with an additional ET.
Comments, criticism, praise or puking all over it is all welcome.
I think an Esper version of this list can be very strong - help me make it work.
20 years ago when Magic came out, I fell in love right away.
Partly with the game and its tag-line "Simple Strategies - Infinite Possibilities" so you could have a new deck idea every 2 seconds if you wanted to... part with the collectible nature (I was a long time Baseball card guy) and I loved building sets but also speculating value and then another big part was the art/flavor that made it so much like D&D / Fantasy Adventure etc...
Finally a guy like me could have his D&D an Baseball cards together... this was the greatest thing ever.
One card I played in nearly every deck I built after it was printed was Juzam Djinn. He was the coolest art I'd ever seen, I loved the flavor text and it was really powerful stats for 4cmc.
Seriously I cannot remember all the games I won on the back of this monster. Sure he dies to stuff, but so many others do as well. And back in the old school days when you could Lotus, Land, Mox, double Ritual, double Juzam on the play, or do the same and then Time Walk on the draw... yummy. I know those days are gone, but it seems like he should or could still be good.
Look it up, all the other creatures even close have some horrible upkeep, enter with a bunch of shrivel counters, give your opponent a lot of control or just plain suck.
So my question is... why in the world is this guy not played in Legacy?
Especially in creature / value decks? The one life? Who cares? Bob does a whole lot more damage than that. Maybe its just bad and I can't see why... but he was such a house in his day and I just figured he's been outclassed since then but not really. 5/5 for 4 mana? So good.
So I will leave it up to the forum gallery... someone tell me why this card is not in any list I can find anywhere for Vintage / Legacy / Cube / EDH - not the competitive ones anyway.
I am looking forward to giving him a whirl as a one or 2 of in an Esper-Blade, Esper control or BUG control or value creature list. I'm sure he can be sick somewhere else as well, but this is where I will start.
Imagine:
Baleful Strix
Snapcaster Mage
Vendilion Clique
Geist of Saint Traft
Juzam Djinn
Or the green version with Tarmogoyf and DRS for a turn 3 Juzam... tasty.
Let me know what you think.
1) Boon Satyr is being cast for its bestow cost, and according to the official Theros FAQ - its either a Creature -or- an Aura on the stack and is never both, can Swan Song counter it ?
2) If Boon Satyr has no legal target (either because the player did not know, or because of some response killing the intended target) but the card was paid for its bestow cost, does it just fizzle?
Thanks in advance for any illumination on this - trying to decide on Swan Song or Dispel in my SB.
Thanks for the advice... seems reasonable to just start with that French list and work from there. Absorb seems nice. Quench in SB for what matchups? We're not running it main are we? Diet Mana Leak
Long time player on a hiatus - just now coming back to competitive Magic.
Not quite up on exactly what all cards are legal in the current standard format.
Someone shoot me a list worth investing the money into, that I could basically just purchase and start playing.
Been a control player since 1993, so style-wise, I am familiar with these types of decks.
Card suggestions from the new set are also welcome. I really just want to get a proven shell and go from there.
Hit me!
1 snapcaster mage
4 sylvan caryatid
1 grave titan
1 elesh norn, grand cenobite.
Other Spelss : 28
1 engineered explosives
1 darkblast
2 inquistion of kozilek
2 path to exile
1 raven's crime
2 thoughtseize
3 abrupt decay
1 life from the loam
2 drown in sorrow
3 liliana of the veil
2 lingering souls
2 sultai charm
4 gifts ungiven
1 batterskull
1 unburial rites
1 academy ruins
1 breeding pool
1 creeping tar pit
1 forest
1 godless shrine
1 hallowed fountain
1 island
2 marsh flats
1 plains
3 polluted delta
1 stirring wildwood
1 swamp
1 tectonic edge
1 temple garden
1 twilight mire
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 verdant catacombs
1 watery grave
1 dispel
2 duress
1 swan song
1 spellskite
1 stony silence
2 tarmogoyf
1 torpor orb
1 ghostly prison
1 rule of law
3 timely reinforcements
1 clever impersonator
Thought this list was good, but leaned a little too heavily on Jace.
Entreat needs to be a 3of IMO and not running 4 Terminus in a meta full of True Name + Equipment is a mistake.
Other than that, the list is solid. Of course any list being piloted by the Duke is solid.
Some of these new developments have had me switch to Esper Miracles with lots of discard, counters and Toxic Deluge / Engineered Plague, Massacre etc. With the red in standard lists only being for Pyroblast and possibly Blood Moon, the black splash seems so much better positioned against Combo, Sneak & Show and the new problem of True-Name Nemesis. Seems pretty good to switch to black.
Much better against Maverick and Bant and anything trying to play good Green value creatures. (See also Perish though the above listed options are probably better and more versatile)
Anyone else agree with this?
I made some tweaks to my list above based on some conversation today...
-1 Entreat the Angels
-1 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Unexpectedly Absent
+1 Blood Moon
+1 Energy Field
+1 Vendilion Clique
In the SB
-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Pyroblast
-1 Energy Field
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Blood Moon
+1 Oblivion Ring
Just feels right to have some more silver bullets in the board for Enlightened Tutor, and O-Ring seems like a strong catch all choice. Having the 2nd clique in the main means I can free up a slot in the board.
And I just thought the 3 Pyroblasts could be better as a mix so we are on 2 F-Storm and 2 P-Blast.
And as a partial hedge for TNN making a splash I have conceded a little and went the full RIP version with 3 copies, Helm and 2 Energy Field main board.
I would play a second Karakas, but I only have one, so I am going with Academy Ruins in that slot to recur Engineered Explosives, Helm if it gets countered or yanked from my hand, Pithing Needle etc.
I went down 1 Swords and an Entreat to make room because if you have those combos in place, they can serve as a win-con and extra removal making the 4th Swords not as must have. And with the extra Clique I felt I could go to 1 Entreat.
Moat is a card that I like and then don't and go back and forth.
Right now, with Delver, Sneak & Show & Reanimator being popular, the creatures that matter in those decks all fly. (Insectile Abberation, Griselbrand and Emrakul) I just think Humility is better right now.
When Goblins, Merfolk, Maverick, Elves and Punishing decks become more popular, I might go back to Moat - for now, I will stick with Humility.
Do you have a list you can share (Razefire)?
Would love to see and compare notes...
Thinking about fitting in the main.
Possibly a 2nd in the board.
Just wrecks so many decks if it sticks...
These decks just get shut off:
Esper Stone-Blade
Esper Deathblade
Shardless BUG
12 Post
RUG Delver
UWR Delver
BUG / Grixis Delver
Jund
And the Blood Moon really messes with
Mutavault
Creeping Tar Pit
City of Traitors
City of Brass
Rishadan Port
Wasteland
Ancient Tomb
Grove of the Burnwillows
Pendlehaven
Gaea's Cradle
Mishra's Factory
and on and on
and with this deck boasting 7 basics... we can really afford at the right moment to drop blood moon and have it be nearly as game over as RIP / Helm or a big Entreat... like the reach it gives.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Time to break out 2x Blood Moon
Curious... in the main what would you cut?
Looking at your list I am guessing the 3rd Counterbalance?
If not that tho - what other change might you recommend?
Cheers
I play 3, plus 1 Karakas and no Mystic Gate and I have not had any problems.
An additional white source you can fetch for is key IMO.
Another Mystic Gate has to be naturally drawn to get the use out of it.
My 2 cents.
Like the list though.
I am running Miracles at a Legacy event near me this weekend.
For this weekend, I am going the combo route - here's my current list.
Thoughts / helps welcome
Lands 22
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
4 Island
1 Karakas
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
1 Academy Ruins
Creatures 2
2 Vendilion Clique
Spells 18
3 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Helm of Obedience
Enchantments 10
3 Counterbalance
3 Rest in Peace
1 Detention Sphere
2 Energy Field
1 Blood Moon
Planeswalkers 3
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Blood Moon
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Pyroblast
1 Humility
1 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear // Tear
1 Misdirection
1 Enlightened Tutor
Mind sharing your list? Particularly your manabase?
Stirring up trouble? Who's the troll here?
I'm just an old school magic guy with an old school favorite card wondering if it could make the cut in any of today's meta games.
Seems like he's not, I can accept that - no need to come in and ugly up the thread with troll speech.
I do still love me some Juzam and at least will enjoy my opponent's face when I play him. Maybe that will be the turn I lose, but it will be cool to see my old friend on the board.
Though, to be very honest, I am still curious.
At the least, I would love to go to SCG Oakland in a few weeks and get a feature match on camera and have the commentators all excited about my spicy one-of during the coverage.
All in all, I do think he is very likely just not good enough anymore, but like Notion Thief, I will enjoy the stories I do get to tell when I "got em" with it. At least that will be fun.
Still my favorite card and magic art of all time. I am buying an absolutely perfect mint one to double sleeve up in my favorite Legacy decks and see what happens.
Thanks for the comments everyone.
I have really enjoyed some of the classic builds and lately I like what Joe Lossett has been doing with his lists. (More control, more counters, Venser)
Miracles is something I enjoy with or without Helm / RIP combo. Miracle-Blade ala Joe Bass is something I have played with as well. What I have not tried as of yet, is an Esper version of the deck that eschews red for REB / PBlast out of the SB (and possibly Blood Moon) and plays black for access to a lot of great disruption, removal and one of my favorite cards ever printed in Creeping Tar Pit. The 2 decks that Miracles seems to be a little slow to are Sneak & Storm. Black really gives us a lot of game against them.
The list I am currently toying around with is a combination of strict UW Miracle control with a strong counter package and the more "silver bullet" version with some combo pieces and Enlightened Tutor. This version also gives us a "Burning Wish-esque" SB package with an additional ET.
Comments, criticism, praise or puking all over it is all welcome.
I think an Esper version of this list can be very strong - help me make it work.
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
3 Tundra
2 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Creatures 3
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Spells 31
3 Force of Will
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate
4 Brainstorm
2 Rest in Peace
1 Energy Field
2 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere
Artifacts 4
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Helm of Obedience
Planeswalkers 4
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Flusterstorm
1 Energy Field
1 Humility
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Rest in Peace
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Misdirection
2 Meddling Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Unexpectedly Absent
Partly with the game and its tag-line "Simple Strategies - Infinite Possibilities" so you could have a new deck idea every 2 seconds if you wanted to... part with the collectible nature (I was a long time Baseball card guy) and I loved building sets but also speculating value and then another big part was the art/flavor that made it so much like D&D / Fantasy Adventure etc...
Finally a guy like me could have his D&D an Baseball cards together... this was the greatest thing ever.
One card I played in nearly every deck I built after it was printed was Juzam Djinn. He was the coolest art I'd ever seen, I loved the flavor text and it was really powerful stats for 4cmc.
Seriously I cannot remember all the games I won on the back of this monster. Sure he dies to stuff, but so many others do as well. And back in the old school days when you could Lotus, Land, Mox, double Ritual, double Juzam on the play, or do the same and then Time Walk on the draw... yummy. I know those days are gone, but it seems like he should or could still be good.
I just looked on gatherer the other day (like 2 days ago) and looked at every single creature ever printed to see anything with power and toughness at 5/5 or better with cost 4 or lower. There is not one card I could find with as little drawback like taking 1 life per turn with these kind of stats for this cost.
Here is the list... tell me what creature is better bang for the buck - I would at least like the discussion... //gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?page=0&action=advanced&cmc=+%3C[5">&power=+%3E[4]&tough=+%3E[4]"]http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?page=0&action=advanced&cmc=+%3C[5]&power=+%3E[4]&tough=+%3E[4]
Look it up, all the other creatures even close have some horrible upkeep, enter with a bunch of shrivel counters, give your opponent a lot of control or just plain suck.
So my question is... why in the world is this guy not played in Legacy?
Especially in creature / value decks? The one life? Who cares? Bob does a whole lot more damage than that. Maybe its just bad and I can't see why... but he was such a house in his day and I just figured he's been outclassed since then but not really. 5/5 for 4 mana? So good.
So I will leave it up to the forum gallery... someone tell me why this card is not in any list I can find anywhere for Vintage / Legacy / Cube / EDH - not the competitive ones anyway.
I am looking forward to giving him a whirl as a one or 2 of in an Esper-Blade, Esper control or BUG control or value creature list. I'm sure he can be sick somewhere else as well, but this is where I will start.
Imagine:
Baleful Strix
Snapcaster Mage
Vendilion Clique
Geist of Saint Traft
Juzam Djinn
Or the green version with Tarmogoyf and DRS for a turn 3 Juzam... tasty.
Let me know what you think.
Thanks for your time all.
Really helpful info.
Peace
1) Boon Satyr is being cast for its bestow cost, and according to the official Theros FAQ - its either a Creature -or- an Aura on the stack and is never both, can Swan Song counter it ?
2) If Boon Satyr has no legal target (either because the player did not know, or because of some response killing the intended target) but the card was paid for its bestow cost, does it just fizzle?
Thanks in advance for any illumination on this - trying to decide on Swan Song or Dispel in my SB.
Peace