Living end can't kill you on an early turn like dredge can if they unban the good dredgers. It will become like legacy where you basically just mulligan to a leyline.
If you can find me five people in the world who enjoy the experience of sitting across from legacy dredge than I guess you've got me, but I think that's highly implausible.
You're actually making my point for me, which is that current modern allows you to play cards like jund charm because the graveyard decks can't kill on turn 2 - that way, you get to play well rounded sideboard cards with other abilities. If you unban troll, you're going to see a lot of t1 faithless looting into something that a three mana jund charm won't ever stop. It would make leyline the only reliable gy hate in the format.
I question that you actually play either of these formats, and if you do, I would put you in the minority of players who enjoy dredge in any way. Obviously your signature indicates that you're not a big fan of modern, which is fine. But unbanning troll is the absolute worst thing you could ever wish on the format.
If you read more closely, I said that everyone will have to devote probably 6 card to the dredge matchup which has a bad effect on the format because the resultant sideboard for every other deck in the format is nine cards. It's not nine cards for dredge - it's six for dredge and nine for everything else, which is exactly what I said earlier.
Turn 1 Faithless looting leading to a turn two win has such an astronomically low chance of succeeding that you're more likely to pull off a turn 2 Griselbrand (which is apparently fair). Turn 3 is more likely to happen, but even then it relies on very vulnerable creatures and no interaction from your opponent. The only reason turn 1/2 wins are infrequent, or even rare, in Legacy is because of the existence of Lion's Eye Diamond, Breakthrough, and Cephalid Coliseum. Modern Dredge also relies on casting creatures and sacrificing them, as opposed to Legacy Dredge, which runs twice as many recursive creatures. Modern Dredge is also crippled by Surgical Extraction and Extirpate because of the lack of recursive beaters.
Jund Charm is played in two decks, Living End (because it costs 3), and Jund (I guess because it also helps against Tron?). It's not exactly the first thing I think of when I think of graveyard hate. Grafdigger's Cage and Relic of Progenitus are much more playable because they are quicker, tutorable with Trinket Mage, and in the case of Relic of Progenitus, maindeckable. Even Tormod's Crypt is better. All of these are played over Leyline of the Void. If you really want "well rounded" sideboard cards that are cheaper, run Rakdos Charm then.
As for Modern, I actually really enjoy playing it online. I find it disappointing that neither combo or control are not terribly viable at the moment (though I never liked Modern Storm to begin with), and I feel that the handling of the ban list is the cause for that. I wish that WotC had let Overextended lead by example and based Modern on the format, seeing how successful and interesting the format became.
So, basically you want them to allow a deck that nearly everyone agrees is miserable to play with and against in order to create a domino effect that makes other matchups miserable because people now have nine card sideboards because they're forced to devote 4-6 cards to fight the dredge deck?
"Nearly every one agrees is miserable to play with and against" - quite the blanket statement there. In any case, why AREN'T you packing graveyard hate in your sideboard? Melira Pod alone should make you run graveyard hate, let alone BUGw Gifts, Living End, and the remnants/offshoots of Storm and Second Sunrise. It's not like Dredge would be THE ONLY graveyard deck in the format. You WANT overlapping sideboard cards.
You are trying to validate your stance by comparing a 1 cmc casting cost spell that tutors an equipment, and a 2 cmc creature that not only tutors a creature, but can cheat equipment out past counter magic. I think it is perfectly clear why one is fine for the format, and the other can be seen as a bit much. SFM would warp the format toward her.
Really? So its fine to say I want this card in the format so I can play a certain deck, but it is not okay to say you dont want the card in the format because you dont want to play against a certain deck?
Both arguments come from personal feelings.
The argument isn't "I want this card back in the format because I like the deck," though some will use that rational to justify their fight for the card, the argument is "This card has no reason to be on the banned list because..."
It doesn't matter that someone feels one way or the other about the card if they argument is based on facts, statistics, testing, etc.
Sorry for using big words, it's the only one I could think of at the time. I guess just essence could work (albeit imperfectly) in retrospect, but it's rather moot.
While this argument is steering away from strictly banlist discussion, I'd like to direct you to comments made by Brain Kibler on a comparison of the two from his perspective as a game designer.
The fact is that it's the combination of tutoring and cheating that make SFM so good. If it was JUST tutoring, it might (and probably would) not be bankable. If it was JUST cheating out equipment, it would DEFINITELY not be bannable. It's the combination of the two that make it so potent. And Tinker is the only other comparable card that does both things.
That's powerful, sure, but as I (and a few others) have repetitively said, what she gets is not broken in the slightest. There is a reason that no one Tinkers for a Batterskull in vintage. It just isn't that back breaking, compared to much of the tier one decks. In a format with Melira Pod, Splinter Twin, Scapeshift, Open the Vaults, Goryo's Vengeance and Through the Breach, a turn 3 or 4 uncounterable 4/4 is just not back breaking. It's not card advantage that deals with threats or disrupts your opponent's game plan (unless that game plan is to punch your face in by turn 4), it's a moderate sized dumb creature, or a sword that takes several turns to connect. We're not talking about Demonic Tutor here, we're talking about Steelshaper's Gift. If there was an equipment that you could sac and destroy a creature, I'd be willing to argue that you can have a fairly powerful toolbox there, but as it stands, relying on being able to equip a 1/2 with a sword, especially if you cheat said sword into play, costing you another turn, doesn't sound appealing early game. She is a good late game threat. In a format so OBSESSED with the first 4 turns of the format, why is that bad, let alone ban worthy?
EDIT: On the topic of card advantage, the card advantage Stoneforge Mystic offers is only good as long as you have a creature. That's what makes Stoneforge Mystic so much worse than Tinker when it comes to finding things, and worse than say Kitchen Finks or Lingering Souls when it comes to pure card advantage. Her advantage requires either her or another creature to be in play (when it comes to the swords) or for her to stay in play long enough to cheat Batterskull into play (a whole 1 or 2 turns earlier than on curve).
trust me i played this deck a lot. AV doesn't need Shardless Agent to be powerful. Ancestral Vision is a Midrange card so why should non Midrange blue decks play it? Control decks need Card Selection more than Card Advantage.
Not in this format they don't! The Wafo-Tapa UWR deck evolved out of a control deck that consisted of 33%+ cantriping spells. Control can only survive in this format through raw card advantage.
Planeswalkers in general cost more than SFM, as does finks (which can be profitably interacted with), souls, snappy into flashback (and is terrible without the mana to flashback a spell), tusk (which doesn't even see play), huntmaster, Grave titan (comparing a 2cc card to a 6cc is not fair).
Stoneforge Mystic costs 2. Sure. It also costs 2 to activate. "But it's over 2 turns!" So is the advantage granted by Finks, and Lingering Souls.
Not only is she giving you +1 card if you don't counter her (barring something like electrolyze), the card is not randomly selected from the deck. The card is from her powerful toolbox, how does junk deal with a sword of light and shadow? Or control deal with Feast and famine/skull?
"Her powerful toolbox" is a set or artifacts, barring Batterskull, that do NOTHING on their own. They are effective useless without the creatures holding them. A "toolbox" is a set of cards that deal with things. (Non-Living weapon) Equipment inherently do nothing until equipped. Even ignoring that fact, what exactly does a SoFeast and Famine do against Jund/Junk? How does it save you? Give you a blocker? That's very weak. Give you a way to attack through their blockers? Sure, but that's assuming both players have established threats and neither hold answers (ie, a late game standstill), in which case that power level is perfectly acceptable. Sure, you can fetch up a Batterskull against an aggro deck, but every aggro deck in the format is running removal. They'll clear a path through you SFM regardless of what creature it was, in which case your batterskull is hitting turn 5, 1 turn after the fundamental turn in the format.
Combo is the only deck that doesn't mind too much, but the SFM player does not have to immediately throw something out, they can wait hold counterspells and throw it out when it is safe to do.
So, combo doesn't care what you're doing, and Stoneforge Mystic is just another finisher in this matchup? Welcome to non-rotating formats!
I feel like Stoneforge is a deceptively powerful card, there is really no comparable card that does as much as her and provides her level of options. That comes down as early as her (someone laying a t2 SFM against you on the play is horrible to view in modern what can you do? Spell snare it?), and that doesn't require much deck design around.
Stoneforge Mystic is a powerful card, no question. The closest analogy I can think of for her is Goblin Matron (effect wise). However, seeing her across from you, on any turn, is really not that scary. She is a SLOW clock (minimum 4 turns), she comes down on turn 2 unprotected (win on turn 6) or turn 3 protected (win on turn 7), and she can't grab the one card that could actually qualify as a toolbox card: Umezawa's Jitte. Swords aren't that scary in a format this fast, this grindy, and this Jund/Junk heavy (funny how Abrupt Decay could keep many of the permanents on the banned list in check, right?).
Yes I'm aware t2 Lil is scary (but you need a deck built with dorks and ways to take advantage of Lil's discard like bob or souls), as is t3 karn (in a deck designed to maximize its chance of playing t3 Karn). But those decks are built around such interactions (ok maybe Lil not so much), which provides a good sideboard a chance to attack. What do you side in against a SFM deck? Ancient grudge? For its 3-5 artifact cards?
The argument that "You need setup and to be running certain cards to get the scary turn 2 Liliana, turn 3 Karn, turn 3 Wurmcoil Engine, turn 3 Infect win" is flat out wrong because that's exactly what the deck is designed to do! That's like saying that Splinter Twin shouldn't be considered scary because it's built to be a Splinter Twin deck. A Deceiver Exarch at the end of my third turn almost certainly means I lose. That's the extreme. To argue that it's not a scary play because it needs setup is illogical. Siding against SFM, I probably wouldnt'. If my deck folds to a single resolved sword, I need to rethink my deck. It's as simple as that. I need to either go bigger, or hit harder, or deal with it effeciently. This contrived dribble of "I don't know how to deal with this, keep it out of my format!" coming from the same people who say "Dies to removal is not an argument" is getting really old.
I think there are many other safer cards to come off than SFM as of right now.
I'm not going argue safer or less safe. A card is or it isn't.
If a card like Bloodbraid Elf is too powerful for the format, there is absolutely no way that Stoneforge Mystic is acceptable. There are a bunch of cards that are inoffensive enough to potentially come of in the near future and SFM is not one of them. Something drastic would have to change in the format for her to be acceptable and I do not see that happening based on Wizards track record with the format.
Bloodbraid Elf: 3/2 Haste creature that plays a second random spell without even resolving in decks full of back-breaking spells.
Stoneforge Mystic: 1/2 Creature that "casts" one specific spell when it resolves and enters the battlefield. It then has the ability to "cast" a second spell the next turn if it survives.
To recap: One is stopped by Trickbind, Mindbreak Trap, and Counterflux and/or multiple counterspells/removal and who's second effect is a total wildcard, while the other is stopped by a single counterspell, or heavily slowed down (i.e. made fair) by a removal spell. You can't compare the two.
People seem to think you can "answer" SFM with cards like lightning bolt. Even if you bolt the mystic, you're already down a card since they've grabbed the best equipment against your deck that they can possibly play.
Look at it in another way - if Steelshaper's Gift was turned into "Search your library for an equipment card, target opponent then discards a spell" that would be equivalent to this scenario, and it would be busted. That doesn't even account for the case where you don't have the removal spell and subsequently die to jitte eating your creatures, or sword of fire and ice 2 for 1'ing you.
As it's been said, SFM breaks midrange and control strategies in half, and gives whoever opens a hand with her has a huge advantage. Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf can be traded for 1 for 1 with removal. The only way to trade with a mystic evenly is to spell snare it, or mana leak it on the play.
"Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf can be traded 1 for 1 with removal. The only way to trade with a (Planeswalker, Kitchen Finks, Lingering Souls, Snapcaster Mage, Thragtusk, Huntmaster of the Fells, Grave Titan, etc) is to (counter it) on the play."
Okay, so we've established that spell-creatures are powerful. In raw card advantage, she's no worse than what I've listed. If anything, she'll punish decks that run removal and not counterspells, which could be a good thing seeing as the counterspells in this format are incredibly fair compared to the removal in the format.
No, it (and GW Aggro) was defintiely a thing between October and Janurary of last year. She only saw a decline in play (and price) once GTC hit.
I don't understand how 3 months out of the year, in a deck that won (I believe) 2 SCG Opens qualifies as "heavily played." She rode her $20 price tag for months and months based purely on price memory. It was quite to anomaly to be honest.
My only issue with unbanning SFM is that most midrange/control decks are just going to jam in 4 SFM, Batterskull, and a sword.
Junk-Absolutely.
Jund-Probably not. Doesn't really need it, to be honest.
Naya/Big Zoo would probably add it
Wafo-Tapa Control-No room.
UW Resto or Sun Titan Control- Maybe? Some people will try it, sure, but I honestly don't think it'd become a mainstay.
Pod doesn't want or need it.
Teachings doesn't need it.
Might make Pikula Dead Guy Ale viable as well as Death and Taxes tier 1.
To be honest, the package seems less appealing overall without Jitte. Batterskull fills a beater roll, Swords fill the "guarenteed to connect" roll, but you don't have the "I win combat for the rest of the game" edge from Jitte.
Punishing Fire also dodges Extirpate, which is a claim to fame that no other graveyard based engine can be attributed to. The only cards that "beat" Punishing Fire 100% are Leyline of the Void and Rest in Peace.
Goblins is held back by 2 factors. It's creatures are slower and smaller than Jund/Junk/UWR, and it has no way to slow said decks down. Not being able to chain Ringleaders and much more removal in this format don't help either.
Turn 1 Faithless looting leading to a turn two win has such an astronomically low chance of succeeding that you're more likely to pull off a turn 2 Griselbrand (which is apparently fair). Turn 3 is more likely to happen, but even then it relies on very vulnerable creatures and no interaction from your opponent. The only reason turn 1/2 wins are infrequent, or even rare, in Legacy is because of the existence of Lion's Eye Diamond, Breakthrough, and Cephalid Coliseum. Modern Dredge also relies on casting creatures and sacrificing them, as opposed to Legacy Dredge, which runs twice as many recursive creatures. Modern Dredge is also crippled by Surgical Extraction and Extirpate because of the lack of recursive beaters.
Jund Charm is played in two decks, Living End (because it costs 3), and Jund (I guess because it also helps against Tron?). It's not exactly the first thing I think of when I think of graveyard hate. Grafdigger's Cage and Relic of Progenitus are much more playable because they are quicker, tutorable with Trinket Mage, and in the case of Relic of Progenitus, maindeckable. Even Tormod's Crypt is better. All of these are played over Leyline of the Void. If you really want "well rounded" sideboard cards that are cheaper, run Rakdos Charm then.
As for Modern, I actually really enjoy playing it online. I find it disappointing that neither combo or control are not terribly viable at the moment (though I never liked Modern Storm to begin with), and I feel that the handling of the ban list is the cause for that. I wish that WotC had let Overextended lead by example and based Modern on the format, seeing how successful and interesting the format became.
"Nearly every one agrees is miserable to play with and against" - quite the blanket statement there. In any case, why AREN'T you packing graveyard hate in your sideboard? Melira Pod alone should make you run graveyard hate, let alone BUGw Gifts, Living End, and the remnants/offshoots of Storm and Second Sunrise. It's not like Dredge would be THE ONLY graveyard deck in the format. You WANT overlapping sideboard cards.
The argument isn't "I want this card back in the format because I like the deck," though some will use that rational to justify their fight for the card, the argument is "This card has no reason to be on the banned list because..."
It doesn't matter that someone feels one way or the other about the card if they argument is based on facts, statistics, testing, etc.
That's powerful, sure, but as I (and a few others) have repetitively said, what she gets is not broken in the slightest. There is a reason that no one Tinkers for a Batterskull in vintage. It just isn't that back breaking, compared to much of the tier one decks. In a format with Melira Pod, Splinter Twin, Scapeshift, Open the Vaults, Goryo's Vengeance and Through the Breach, a turn 3 or 4 uncounterable 4/4 is just not back breaking. It's not card advantage that deals with threats or disrupts your opponent's game plan (unless that game plan is to punch your face in by turn 4), it's a moderate sized dumb creature, or a sword that takes several turns to connect. We're not talking about Demonic Tutor here, we're talking about Steelshaper's Gift. If there was an equipment that you could sac and destroy a creature, I'd be willing to argue that you can have a fairly powerful toolbox there, but as it stands, relying on being able to equip a 1/2 with a sword, especially if you cheat said sword into play, costing you another turn, doesn't sound appealing early game. She is a good late game threat. In a format so OBSESSED with the first 4 turns of the format, why is that bad, let alone ban worthy?
EDIT: On the topic of card advantage, the card advantage Stoneforge Mystic offers is only good as long as you have a creature. That's what makes Stoneforge Mystic so much worse than Tinker when it comes to finding things, and worse than say Kitchen Finks or Lingering Souls when it comes to pure card advantage. Her advantage requires either her or another creature to be in play (when it comes to the swords) or for her to stay in play long enough to cheat Batterskull into play (a whole 1 or 2 turns earlier than on curve).
Not in this format they don't!
Stoneforge Mystic costs 2. Sure. It also costs 2 to activate. "But it's over 2 turns!" So is the advantage granted by Finks, and Lingering Souls.
"Her powerful toolbox" is a set or artifacts, barring Batterskull, that do NOTHING on their own. They are effective useless without the creatures holding them. A "toolbox" is a set of cards that deal with things. (Non-Living weapon) Equipment inherently do nothing until equipped. Even ignoring that fact, what exactly does a SoFeast and Famine do against Jund/Junk? How does it save you? Give you a blocker? That's very weak. Give you a way to attack through their blockers? Sure, but that's assuming both players have established threats and neither hold answers (ie, a late game standstill), in which case that power level is perfectly acceptable. Sure, you can fetch up a Batterskull against an aggro deck, but every aggro deck in the format is running removal. They'll clear a path through you SFM regardless of what creature it was, in which case your batterskull is hitting turn 5, 1 turn after the fundamental turn in the format.
So, combo doesn't care what you're doing, and Stoneforge Mystic is just another finisher in this matchup? Welcome to non-rotating formats!
Stoneforge Mystic is a powerful card, no question. The closest analogy I can think of for her is Goblin Matron (effect wise). However, seeing her across from you, on any turn, is really not that scary. She is a SLOW clock (minimum 4 turns), she comes down on turn 2 unprotected (win on turn 6) or turn 3 protected (win on turn 7), and she can't grab the one card that could actually qualify as a toolbox card: Umezawa's Jitte. Swords aren't that scary in a format this fast, this grindy, and this Jund/Junk heavy (funny how Abrupt Decay could keep many of the permanents on the banned list in check, right?).
The argument that "You need setup and to be running certain cards to get the scary turn 2 Liliana, turn 3 Karn, turn 3 Wurmcoil Engine, turn 3 Infect win" is flat out wrong because that's exactly what the deck is designed to do! That's like saying that Splinter Twin shouldn't be considered scary because it's built to be a Splinter Twin deck. A Deceiver Exarch at the end of my third turn almost certainly means I lose. That's the extreme. To argue that it's not a scary play because it needs setup is illogical. Siding against SFM, I probably wouldnt'. If my deck folds to a single resolved sword, I need to rethink my deck. It's as simple as that. I need to either go bigger, or hit harder, or deal with it effeciently. This contrived dribble of "I don't know how to deal with this, keep it out of my format!" coming from the same people who say "Dies to removal is not an argument" is getting really old.
I'm not going argue safer or less safe. A card is or it isn't.
Bloodbraid Elf: 3/2 Haste creature that plays a second random spell without even resolving in decks full of back-breaking spells.
Stoneforge Mystic: 1/2 Creature that "casts" one specific spell when it resolves and enters the battlefield. It then has the ability to "cast" a second spell the next turn if it survives.
To recap: One is stopped by Trickbind, Mindbreak Trap, and Counterflux and/or multiple counterspells/removal and who's second effect is a total wildcard, while the other is stopped by a single counterspell, or heavily slowed down (i.e. made fair) by a removal spell. You can't compare the two.
EDIT: Not to mention, of course, that we ALREADY HAVE a 4/4 uncounterable creature in the format.
"Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf can be traded 1 for 1 with removal. The only way to trade with a (Planeswalker, Kitchen Finks, Lingering Souls, Snapcaster Mage, Thragtusk, Huntmaster of the Fells, Grave Titan, etc) is to (counter it) on the play."
Okay, so we've established that spell-creatures are powerful. In raw card advantage, she's no worse than what I've listed. If anything, she'll punish decks that run removal and not counterspells, which could be a good thing seeing as the counterspells in this format are incredibly fair compared to the removal in the format.
I don't understand how 3 months out of the year, in a deck that won (I believe) 2 SCG Opens qualifies as "heavily played." She rode her $20 price tag for months and months based purely on price memory. It was quite to anomaly to be honest.
The SFM player has a Batterskull stranded in hand for 3 turns, mind you. Still not that scary or disadvantageous.
Personally, I doubt it. Jund still tears these decks apart. I'd rather face a turn 3 Batterskull over a turn 2/3 Liliana or Karn any day.
Junk-Absolutely.
Jund-Probably not. Doesn't really need it, to be honest.
Naya/Big Zoo would probably add it
Wafo-Tapa Control-No room.
UW Resto or Sun Titan Control- Maybe? Some people will try it, sure, but I honestly don't think it'd become a mainstay.
Pod doesn't want or need it.
Teachings doesn't need it.
Might make Pikula Dead Guy Ale viable as well as Death and Taxes tier 1.
To be honest, the package seems less appealing overall without Jitte. Batterskull fills a beater roll, Swords fill the "guarenteed to connect" roll, but you don't have the "I win combat for the rest of the game" edge from Jitte.