I'm just gonna repost this with a few changes, in response to anyone who thinks that SFM would increase deck diversity..
SFM would EASILY go in every deck and make aggro not running SFM a dog to every other deck.
Here's a list from Modern top 8 of archetypes. Let me try to show you how absurd this would be.
Jund - Sprit Jund would run SFM.
Affinity - It's not implausible that they would run SFM to get batterskull and cranial plating.
Gruul Aggro - Deck goes naya or dies to Bskull.
Aura Hexproof - Why not maybe put SFM package in your Sideboard now? A backup plan, and you can run Manriki Gusari.
Red Deck Wins - Now needs to race SFM batterskull in approximately 100 percent of it's matchups.
Merfolk - They can already splash white for PTE. This deck is very weak to SFM (batterskull specifically), so why not just run a couple yourself?
Doran & Junk - Would definitely run it.
4/5c Good Stuff - SFM would ofc go here.
Token - Sure, why not?
Hatebear - Would either keep running lots of search hate, or cut Leonin Arbiters for their own SFM. Which is probably better.
Zoo - Naya or bust.
URW - The control version would run it, the twin version would maybe run it as a backup win condition.
Martyr Proc - Would run it for sure.
And so on. It's really not a stretch to think that it would go in every deck that runs white / can splash white, so that excludes stuff like Scapeshift, Living End, Tron etc. and that's it.
But hey, that's only more than half of the meta, so what do I know. We should totally unban SFM and break the entire format for the sake of some niche Elbrus the Binding Blade deck that wouldn't even top 8 anything.
My question to you is: Why didn't we see this in Overextended? She was good, but she didn't flood the entire meta, and that was with Ponder, Preordain, and Jace the Mindsculptor. Even after Aether Vial was allowed back into the format, she still didn't go into "every deck." What tools did that format have that this one doesn't? Vindicate? Use Maelstrom Pulse or Abrupt Decay. Pernicious Deed? Didn't see much play. To bring my point home, not all zoo decks (which were all 3+ colors) ran her! This absurd notion that everyone and their mothers will cram SFM into every deck is just that, absurd.
Turns on metalcraft quicker, gives you 2 more artifacts for plating and to sac to ravager. I can play ravager turn 1 and hit for 18 turn 2 now (and its not really that hard to hit for between 15-18 on turn 2 as long as you get ravager on turn 1), give me 2 more artifacts and I am hitting for 20-22 on turn 2.
SFM is tinker on a stick. Do you think tinker would be safe to have in Modern right now? Now SFM is a stronger version of tinker.
You are free to feel as you wish, I just dont think SFM is ever coming off the list.
Just to clarify, did you just compare a card that cheats a sword, a Batterskull, or a Basilisk Collar to a card that grabs a Blightsteel Colossus against non-white decks, a Sphinx of the Steel Wind against aggro decks, or a Inkwell Leviathan against blue decks as early as turn 2?
It's the Wild Nacatl issue. Every control deck (and likely most combo decks) would play it, because it's too easy and too good. A life for every mana you spend? A 1/1 flier for every mana you spend? It's just too good to not run as some kind of 5/6-of, and even if it doesn't just flat out always win games, it buys too much time and is too effective to be considered anything close to innocuous.
If you don't agree with the WN ban, you won't agree with this one. That being said, both are good for the format, because they encourage diversity, which is one of modern's strongest suits.
I'd never play Bitterblossom in UWR Wafo-Tapa, Esper Teachings, or BUGw Gifts. Only decks I'd play Bitterblossom in are Tokens and Fae, and I'm not quite sure it's better than alternatives in either deck.
3 Jace and 1 Abrupt Decay is pretty much $40 in my book, which is the same as the STP.
If you play Standard and plan on using these cards, I'd say that you did fine. Jace is poised to rise and Abrupt Decay is played everywhere.
The STP does have a ceiling of $100 since the FNM foil is that much and the Judge one will never exceed or even get close to that. People like the old art too much and if they're pimping a $4 common, they probably don't mind spending an extra $20-30.
That being said, the judge foils will get to $60-70 easily within the next year (or even the next few months) and stay there as a budget/alternate art option for pimpers. Jace will plummet to a $3-5 mythic post RTR rotation.
If you're doing this trade solely on speculation instead of looking for cards to play with, I'd say it's a much harder decision. I'd say it's harder to trade the Standard cards back for a high demand Judge promo than it is to trade the Judge promo for Standard, but that's your call. If you don't care for pimp, then I think you're on the right track.
*****
Ahem, shameless bump on my post 1 post above...
If anyone could take a look at the trade I posted earlier today that'd be great! I really need a second opinion on this...:(:
Looks like worse case scenarion (valuing the Tabernacle low), you lost $70. I wouldn't have taken the deal, but I feel as though Tabernacle is a step down from P9 nowaways.
Only decks I really don't like to play against are R/G tron and Mill, but I play UWRb Teachings, so maybe I'm biased. R/G Tron is an unfair combination of blistering speed and inevitability, and Mill is a pet-peave deck for me. Most decks really aren't that bad to play against, even Storm or Breakfast at Urza's.
OK, question for the gang. Would sword of the meek warp the format? I think it would be fair in this format. Cashseize and IoK still get thopter foundry, and our best friend abrupt decay gets it all day err day. Yes, getting a 1/1 flyer and 1 life for 1 mana is a heck of a bargain, but there are a ton of decks which don't even care about life. Twin, pod and infect. Oh you have 67 life? Who cares you still lose. So, would SotM be a fair unban? I mean, GGT, BB and maybe AV are more obvious, but surely Erik Lauer and co can't see this durdly artifact being a huge threat to the format.
I feel as though Sword of the Meek would be a safe unban. It's a late game combo win condition that doesn't win on the spot. It can be used in a pinch to slow control's bleeding against aggro as well, but doesn't add inevitability until you can pour 5+ mana into the combo a turn. It can be attacked via graveyard hate, artifact hate, and permanent (Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse) hate. Most important of all, it is a clunky fit into UWR Midrange and UWR control, but would give Tezzerator a solid win condition that fits underneath an Ensnaring Bridge.
To be fair, there's a reasonable chance it wouldn't have won the second Grand Prix if its opponent hadn't made one of the biggest blunders in competitive Magic history.
Most people agree that given the players hands and board states, the pod player still had that game.
Legacy's banned list had minimal changes for a couple years after it and Vintage were created from the divorce of T1 and T1.5 in 2004. Here's the highlights:
2005 was the first change for Legacy with Imperial Seal being banned, because its functionally similar to other banned cards.
2007 saw Flash-Hulk rip the format apart with Turn 1 and Turn 0 combo kills; but Mind over Matter and Replenish were unbanned in the same announcement. This is the era that Legacy got its terrible reputation as an unfair, stupid-fast, coin-flip based combo format. Shaharazad was banned a few months later for logistic considerations.
2008 saw a spree of erratas being reversed in an effort to simplify the rules of the game. Time Vault is a casualty of the change and deservedly earns a ban for being bonkers as printed.
2009 saw the second major wave of unbannings as Metalworker, Dream Halls, and Entomb came off the list.
2010 saw Mystical Tutor banned after Entomb's unban the previous year helped to make reanimator ridiculously consistent. Grim Monolith and Illusionary Mask were unbanned. At the end of the year, Survival of the Fittest, which had slowly but steadily improving since the format's inception, finally reached a critical mass of dominance that had to be addressed with a banning. Time Spiral was unbanned at the same time though.
2011 saw Mental Misstep banned for format warping
*Also worthy of note, Skullclamp is missing from the Timeline of DCI Bans and Restrictions list on the salvation Wiki I looked at to confirm my memory.
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So, what parallels can we draw to Modern? Realistically, very little. Legacy's banned list at introduction was based on Type 1.5, so there was no reason for pre-emptive bans like we saw in Modern. But its fun to speculate so here goes:
IF (and that's a big IF) Modern follows in Legacy's footsteps, then we can speculate there will be....
(Early 2014) - an insane combo deck pops up and breaks the Turn 4 rule in half around year 3, similar to Flash-Hulk in 2007 ((this likely already occurred ahead of schedule with the series of bans related to UR Storm)). Someday, we'll get back a card or two that didn't deserve to be on the list in the first place. I'll speculate GGT, BB, and AV.
(Late 2014) - a deck that takes too long will get a piece banned just like Shaharazad was banned for logistic reasons. ((This likely already happened with Second Sunrise))
(2016) - A few cards long thought to be too powerful to ever be reintroduced are successfully unbanned. I'll guess this is SFM, JTMS, Sword of the Meek, BBE, Nacatl etc to mirror Legacy powerhouses Dream Halls, Entomb, and Metalworker.
(Early 2017) - A card related to the 2016 unbans proves to bee too much to handle. Turns out SFM into Batterskull (or whatever you want to pick) is just too good, so Batterskull is banned rather than re-banning SFM, just as Entomb combined with Mystical Tutor to make reanimator insane before Mystical Tutor was banned to correct the mistake.
(Late 2017) - Birthing Pod finally reaches a critical mass of dominance to be considered 'too consistent' and eats a ban just as Survival of the Fittest did 6 years into Legacy.
(2018) - WotC tries to be cheeky and print a spell they fully understand will have a huge impact on Modern, just for the lols of it because its needed in Standard to counteract some stupid card no one will play anyways, like Mental Misstep. Chaos ensues until the card can be banned at the first update following its release.
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Yeah. Sounds just as stupid and baseless as I thought it would as a comparison, but it is kinda funny to play with the parallels. If anything, it seems like Modern is teething faster than Legacy did, probably because its a high-interest PTQ format from the get-go rather than a rare and celebrated oddity at the highest level. Modern has already arguably gone through its 'too fast combo phase' (UR Storm vs. Flash Hulk), its 'we're banning this because it takes too long' card (Second Sunrise vs. Shaharazad), and are quickly approaching the point where its format defining engine transforms from 'too cute and unique to this format to too consistent and winning lots of events' (Birthing Pod vs. Survival of the Fittest). That said, unbans have been surprisingly sluggish in Modern given how quickly Modern has paralleled some of the banning phases that we've seen in Legacy before.
At the very least, looking at Legacy is a reminder that lots of the 'Ban Everything anyways!' pro-active perspective we see can largely be written off as unprecedented. Also critics of the banned list have good reason to be hopeful that WotC will someday reverse some of the more controversial banning decisions....but it'll take time and continued pressure to get it done.
Also, as an aside, if Modern was introduced as a 'tweener alternative format 7 years into Legacy's existence, then it bodes well for the idea of WotC reintroducing Old Extended as a 'tweener format between Standard and Modern someday when the card pool is much larger and the transition is more daunting than today. So that way as power level continues to creep forward, eventually there will be a place for some of the more vocal members of this discussion that want a larger card pool with a lower power level.
To be fair, Hulk-Flash taking over in '07 was caused by Flash being re-errata'd back to it's original functionality.
Manamorphose drew into another Manamorphose which drew into a Goblin Bushwhacker.
So Storm Count was at 6 + the original copy = 14 tokens + Bushwhacker Kicked = actually 30 damage on T2.
It was lucky, but no luckier than your examples which you reckoned warranted a ban. Every part of that combo is pretty innocuous.
I'm totally confused here. Mountain x2 gives you RR, plus 2 desperate rituals gives you RRRR, Geosurge gives you RRRRRRR, but you can't use it to play Empty the Warrens.
So because I am in favor of bannings and you are not I am a troll.. gotcha.:rolleyes: Just because you have one view of how things should work, doesnt mean its the only one. I understand banning is the only way Wotc has to regulate the format. The policing cards needed to self regulate are not in the format.
Turn 1, thought scour yourself, hit a GGT, dredge for the draw step off scour, hit a bridge, 3 nacros, DR and Flame-kin, opponent takes 12 damage before they can play a land. You can say more or less you win turn 1. Granted its a specific set of cards needed, but if this can happen on turn 1, it gets easier turns 2 and 3. I understand thats magical christmasland, but it is possible on turn 1. Still think Dread Return is a safe unban?
Absolutely. You can literally win turn 1 with Paradise Mantle, Simian Spirit Guide x2, steam vents, Blistercoil Weird, and Crimson Wisps, drawing into more cantrips. Just as magical Christmas land, just as ridiculous. Or how about Simian Spirit Guide x2, Watery Grave, Faithless Looting, Griselbrand, Pentad Prism, Goryo's Vengeance? Just because the scenario exists, doesn't mean it's plausible.
My question to you is: Why didn't we see this in Overextended? She was good, but she didn't flood the entire meta, and that was with Ponder, Preordain, and Jace the Mindsculptor. Even after Aether Vial was allowed back into the format, she still didn't go into "every deck." What tools did that format have that this one doesn't? Vindicate? Use Maelstrom Pulse or Abrupt Decay. Pernicious Deed? Didn't see much play. To bring my point home, not all zoo decks (which were all 3+ colors) ran her! This absurd notion that everyone and their mothers will cram SFM into every deck is just that, absurd.
Just to clarify, did you just compare a card that cheats a sword, a Batterskull, or a Basilisk Collar to a card that grabs a Blightsteel Colossus against non-white decks, a Sphinx of the Steel Wind against aggro decks, or a Inkwell Leviathan against blue decks as early as turn 2?
I'd never play Bitterblossom in UWR Wafo-Tapa, Esper Teachings, or BUGw Gifts. Only decks I'd play Bitterblossom in are Tokens and Fae, and I'm not quite sure it's better than alternatives in either deck.
(average ebay values)
My:
1x Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (MP) ($300)
2x Misty Rainforest (70)
1x Arid Mesa (25)
His:
1x Gaea's Cradle (NM) (100)
1x Underground Sea (UNL NM-) ($150 average)
1x Survival of the Fittest (Judge Foil, NM) (85)
Looks like worse case scenarion (valuing the Tabernacle low), you lost $70. I wouldn't have taken the deal, but I feel as though Tabernacle is a step down from P9 nowaways.
That title goes to Lands, by far.
Not a god, no stars in the body. The other 3 gods all have stars throughout their art.
I feel as though Sword of the Meek would be a safe unban. It's a late game combo win condition that doesn't win on the spot. It can be used in a pinch to slow control's bleeding against aggro as well, but doesn't add inevitability until you can pour 5+ mana into the combo a turn. It can be attacked via graveyard hate, artifact hate, and permanent (Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse) hate. Most important of all, it is a clunky fit into UWR Midrange and UWR control, but would give Tezzerator a solid win condition that fits underneath an Ensnaring Bridge.
Most people agree that given the players hands and board states, the pod player still had that game.
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Griselbrand
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Terastodon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Dig (12)
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Shambling Shell
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Breaking // Entering
4 Living End
3 Unburial Rites
Cascade (12)
4 Demonic Dread
4 Violent Outburst
To be fair, Hulk-Flash taking over in '07 was caused by Flash being re-errata'd back to it's original functionality.
I'm totally confused here. Mountain x2 gives you RR, plus 2 desperate rituals gives you RRRR, Geosurge gives you RRRRRRR, but you can't use it to play Empty the Warrens.
Absolutely. You can literally win turn 1 with Paradise Mantle, Simian Spirit Guide x2, steam vents, Blistercoil Weird, and Crimson Wisps, drawing into more cantrips. Just as magical Christmas land, just as ridiculous. Or how about Simian Spirit Guide x2, Watery Grave, Faithless Looting, Griselbrand, Pentad Prism, Goryo's Vengeance? Just because the scenario exists, doesn't mean it's plausible.