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  • posted a message on Turbo Moon
    Quote from crunkyeah »
    Seems like it would be wickedly fun to play if you ask me. Especially against tron players. Not only do you have all the Moon effects but you also have the shaman there to make them take more damage off the karn/map/o-stone activations. I guess the same could be said for Twin and Pod.

    I have a few questions though:

    1. How does the bashing plan compete with RDW in terms of speed? RDW is based all around mountains obviously so it doesn't hinder them at all. At that point you're really looking for a faster clock. Spellskite can't really be relied upon to save the day every game.
    2. Do the moon effects slow down robots/affinity enough to where you can create a bigger board presence? Seems like a single Cranial Plated Ornithopter can be pretty nasty if you can't find a Lightning Bolt.
    3. No Pithing Needle in the 75 to deal with Liliana of the Veil? She seems pretty popular these days and a completed ultimate might not be a good thing for you. Seems like there has to be something other than Shaman to keep PW in check.

    Overall though I could see how this could have lots of success in the meta. The only bad thing about it is if you play casual with it at all you're bound to run into a bunch of decks that don't use non-basics. Although I will say since the reprinting of the shock lands it's a lot more common to see non-basics but there are a bunch of budget decks out there playing only basics.

    P.S. Ever thought about Acidic Slime? I could see some artifacts/enchantments giving you a hassle, such as Ensnaring Bridge or Ghostly Prison.

    Yes man it is wicked fun but also pretty hard in some matches, lets address your questions for this.

    1.- The RDW and Burn decks are ok since we do get a lot of card that get us life and but we do have 8 almost dead cards in our main deck, so i guess its like 40%-%60 in their favor for the first game it is not unwinnable but we do rely on a second turn blocker third turn huntmaster some oozes and race them to the finish, this is why the baloths ar eso important they really turn the tables along with the other guys so i mostly side 4 blood moon and 2 magus of the moon out and bring 2 spellskites 2 baloths and 2 relic of progenitus ( if there is a lavamancer in sight and because it is better than having the magus and if its a RDW variant with a lot of critters anger of the gods most likely will seal the deal, after sb i would say its somehting like %70-%30 in our favor.

    2.- The robots/affinity Match has been a nightmare for me and this is not really because we have a really bad match against them it is just that they can get those nut hands and if we don't get a hold of 2 bolts and any card on our SB we will be dead, so if you know you are against robots in game one mulligan until you get at least a bolt, for the most part the match is something like " the first to tremble loses". the SB plan is very simple: 4 magus of the moon, 1 Beast within and 3 Sword of war and peace out. 3 anger of the gods, 3 Shatterstorm and 2 Obstinate Baloth in.
    Pre SB it ssomething like %60 -%40 on their favor and Post SB something like %70-%30 in ours but you have to mulligan heavily to get a SB piece this is very important. Oh and in cas eyour wondering yeah i leave the blood moons in because stopping those Nexus is a must.

    3.- No pithing needle on the deck because although its a great card and Liliana is really something to be reckoned with, we do have bolt and beast within ( see? beast within catches everything). and Baloths on the SB, still JUND which is the deck that uses her to her full extent its a tricky match up. but if you know how to play it and you can lock them with a moon they will not be able to do anything.. they do pack 3-4 Abrupt decay on main to deal with them but they have to be prepared and never tap out 2 lands and even if they do that you can always abuse Beast within at the end of turn.

    As for the playing this deck in a casual environment.. well i would suggest not to do it since casual players are more about having fun and this deck will not let them do so if they are playing a lot of nonbasics and if they have a lot of basics you will have a mediocre deck, as Ive said this is a deck that aims to wreck the Modern metagame.

    I have thought about acidic slime and believe me i think that card is bonkers, but i believe he is not needed here and that there are better and cheaper/faster ways to do what he does here,since for the most part nobody plays ghostly prision, and ensnaring bridge is easy to get rid of with DA BEAST :P. i do feel that a deck like The Rack could be hard to beat since they do not rely on nonbasics and i cannot interact with its main plan but i would still had to test against it and i guess i will worry when everybody starts playing it.

    Thanks for the comments and the questions.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Turbo Moon
    Quote from VidarThor »

    How is stormbreath dragon?

    He is amazing as i have told before he not only is a fast and synergistic clock he is also very hard to get rid of... trust me on this one he is there to stay.

    Quote from VidarThor »
    What about Xenagos the planewalker?

    Well I have thought about him and i have also though and used some other planeswalkers like Chandra Pyromaster and Garruk Relentless, and Garruk Primal Hunter being this last one by far the better choice for this deck, but in the end i cut it just because he is not fast enough at least in the current meta i always wanted to play something with a lot more impact than him by the time i hit 5 mana. That being said i could see xenagos being a good choice if the field was all about control but it isnt.

    Quote from VidarThor »

    Also, would it not be better with sword of ice and fire? Or one or two swords of ice and fire. I am also not sold on beast within. What is it there for besides stooping combo creature decks (pod/splinter twin) What about flame slash? Although this last card does not smash the birthing pod. Perhaps Kitchen finks, they seem always good.

    Well as i have said before the Sword of War and Peace is just bonkers here and it serves 3 purposes, protecting a magus of the moon or your beater of choice, Giving you life against some decks that could get a better board position faster than you and to put a lot of pressure on the opponent that will not be bale to play anything under a moon effect. The sword of fire and ice has always been tempting but i don't think that it can be better in any case here, but hey.. try it and let me know.
    As for the Beast within well, i have thought about cutting it a lot of times but there is not a better card for this slot, if you use flameslash you dont have any responses to a pod on the main deck and flameslash most of the times doesn't kill a tarmogoyf anyway so.. i would rather give them a 3/3 beast than losing to an active deceiver exarch/Restoration Angel or to lose against an ensnaring bridge, karn, and that big ETC... but if you know of abetter card to be ready to defend ourselves against almost anything and to be bale to trump the basic lands the opponents get in order to play under a moon let us know :).
    The Kitchen Finks wel they could be great in the sb but as i explained above, the baloths serve a better purpose than just giving life and we already have the centaur in the 3cmc slot so i dont think we need them.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Turbo Moon
    I.- Introduction

    I bet a lot of us thought that Blood Moon was a crappy rare back in the day right?, well I'm sure a lot of us don't think that way anymore. That being said it is outstanding the amount of frustration this card can give to some people because it just seems unfair to not be able to play anything while your opponent bash you in the face, and although in legacy it is a very proven archetype and in Modern things like the Blue Moon deck has been trying to do this for a while now, or even having something like 80% of the decks running red having it on their sideboard... well... It just doesn't cut it for me.
    This is a mere intro for an idea that i wont say its revolutionary in any way, but it aims to push that wrecking ball of an effect on a format filled with nonbasic lands.

    II - The Core
    The core of the deck is divided in 2 things

    - Blood Moon
    - Acceleration to Blood Moon


    Are by far the best choice for this. (I must say i used to play deathrite shaman instead of noble hierarch before he was banned, but i know now that hierarch is by far the better choice even if the shaman wasn't banned anymore).

    III - Protect the Core

    In order to be able to land a 2nd turn Moon we have it covered with our 8 1st turn accelerators, but sometimes we have to wait in order to be able to protect our goal and seal the deal.

    The justification for each of these cards is quite simple.

    -Lightning Bolt is one of the best cheap removals and it helps to finish the opponent sooner when you are racing him to recover under a moon.

    -Beast Within is a catch em all joker card, the amount of games this card wins alone is outstanding, either destroying the sole basic land an
    opponent has in play, or playing it at the end of turn to trump a Telegraphed counterspell, to getting rid of that big creature you cannot handle
    with a bolt.

    -The sword of war and Peace it is also a multi purpose card, it can help you protect any creature from almost any removal played on Modern
    (being Vapor Snag and Dismember the only ones that can handle a creature with this protection in the current meta), so its great but it is also
    synergistic with the idea that your opponent most likely will be stuck with a lot of cards in hand not being able to play them, so any creature
    even a Bird of paradise is a great clock.

    IV - The Bashers

    Here the options are a bit sketchy to some people and although the obvious inclusions (for some), tarmogoyf and kitchen finks were tested at some point, in the end i decided to cut them off for far superior choices according to the meta since well at its core it is what the deck is aiming to wreck the metagame.

    As i said Tarmogoyf and Kitchen Finks was tested on the slots of the ooze, shaman and huntmaster and they were ok but not great so ill explain why did i make those changes.

    - Scavenging Ooze is one of those cards nowadays that is just better than everything and it is not only a big booty for 2 mana (read Tarmogoyf),
    so he went from a 1 of to 3 and sometimes i would just want to push one more but it is not possible since the deck is pretty tight as it is.

    - Huntmaster of The Fells is one of those cards that is great when you can find him a good spot on a deck and not great, that being said he shines
    on this deck since you have somehow the same synergy that you get with the sword playing him under a moon effect,
    "T1. land+mana dude, T2. land+moon, T3. land+huntmaster" This gives you a pretty good chance he will flip on your next upkeep because they
    will be stuck not able to playing anything, and if that perfect curve doesn't happen he can always be a good defense strategy so he fits perfectly.

    -Burning-Tree Shaman, he is the most recent addition i made and here is where the Tarmogoyfs sat for almost the entirety of this deck creation.
    The thing with the tarmos is that although they are a good clock and an excellent blocker, they do not help us a lot more than that and in my search
    for optimization i found this forgotten gem that it seems even better than when he was rampant all over T2 back in the day.
    The centaur is awesome at blocking it is immune to Bolts and although Path to exile, Abrupt Decay and Dismember get rid of him he is not a joke on
    the body department, but his ability is awesome, he keeps most of the Planeswalkers in check, he gives an extra damage when a fetchland is
    sacrificed, he forces the Splinter Twin, Birthing Pod matches to our favor essentially having 3 spellskites on our main deck. so for all that he
    gets the spot.

    -Stormbreath Dragon, well he is just what the doctor ordered why?... Well a lot of people that has seen the deck makes this same question
    "Why Stormbreath Dragon over lets say Thundermaw Hellkite?" the answer is pretty simple and it has to do with the same principle as the
    Sword of War and Peace. he is immune to Bolt, Path and Decay. and his monstrosity ability is also synergistic with the core of the deck so
    there is no better creature for this deck than him.

    V - The Mana Base

    - The Mana base is quite simple and it cannot be different since every land has to be able to give us green mana and everything needs to enter the battlefield untapped, as for the Fetchlands you want to almost always go for a forest and maximize the amount of those before landing the Moon in play.

    VI - Decklist

    VII - The Sideboard

    The SB as always its a meta call but since we are a meta deck by itself and we have some cards on main that could be considered SB cards ill post here my current SB and explain my choices.

    -The options here are addressing not what hits us the most but instead the things that really couldnt care less about our main plan.

    -Spellskite: help protect our core but also to help against the Infect and Twin matchups.

    -Torpor Orb: for the Splinter Twin match as well as for the Birthing Pod decks out there and arguably helps against snapcaster decks.

    -Boil: This could easily be the 4th beast within but since you want that card for the same matches that this card can be great it is a better
    choice, this matches being UW control, American Control, Blue Moon, and Scapeshift. (yes scapeshift although it is one of the best
    matchups for the deck they can always get basic islands pretty easily if they are prepared for it).

    -Relic of progenitus: I do need some graveyard hate in here and it is also great to get Tarmogoyfs and Snapcasters in check even more now that I'm not playing Tarmos myself.

    -Obstinate Baloth: this guy here is to help us against that fast Red decks and also against Jund because they cant kill him with abrupt decay nor
    bolt, and he just loves to be played for free when they activate Liliana, he is also synergistic with our next card choice.

    -Anger of the Gods: This card is a must against Birthing Pod decks because removing a kitchen finks or a voice of resurgence its always great, Hatebears and all things aggro, but it also helps with the deck that can wreck anything without caring about our plan if he gets the right hand... AFFINITY... hence...

    -Shatterstorm: There is no better card for this plain and simple, for some time i played creeping corrosion, Ancient grudge and even Vandalblast (for its versatility). but there is no better choice than this and we do need at least 3 because having it or not having it on turn 2 ts almost the only chance we have of winning, since the first game its most likely 70%-30% in their favor.

    As i said the SB is always a meta call but this so far is the best 15 i have found for the current Meta as of 25-08-2014.

    VIII - Notes and Results

    So far i have won several FNM, Some Modern League tournaments and Cash prices with it and recently i lost the final of PTQ Khans of Tarkir to a very, very lucky Infect Player going 6-1 in the rounds and losing only 6 games total in the whole tournament. I'm sure that the Shamans were the better choice vs the Tarmogoyfs i used to run but that could change if the format keeps morphing.

    I was asked to write this Primer for almost 4 months now but i haven't been able due to work and stuff, but since now after the PTQ a lot of people have asked me for the list i figured it would be better to write it and share it with everyone. I hope people like my idea and really test it through before commenting, that being said i would love to see what everyone thinks of this.


    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on THS pics and Masterbase
    ok links fixed.. sorry bout that.
    Posted in: Third Party Products
  • posted a message on THS pics and Masterbase
    Well since the full spoiler is out....

    Here is the low res version of the pics and an Edited Masterbase (fixed some bad names), taken from this forum.. so al lcredit to chaosof99 here

    anyway here is the file, just unpack and replace master.mwbase Pics Masterbase
    Posted in: Third Party Products
  • posted a message on Box Mapping Thread - GTC Gatecrash Edition
    i cant see the 1.2.1 version on the store yet.. im guessing we have to wait a bit?.. im talking about the andrid version...

    EDIT: So it appears that it is there.. i just couldnt update.. but i uninstalled and re installed an di have the newest version.. great
    Posted in: New Card Discussion
  • posted a message on Box Mapping Thread - GTC Gatecrash Edition
    hehe ok i fugured it out.. it worked ok.. although one of the predictions were off but just 1 of them and for the better.. ( predicted high priest of penance and it was a breeding pool) after that it went smooth...

    Still... worst box i have ever opened.. damn....
    Posted in: New Card Discussion
  • posted a message on Box Mapping Thread - GTC Gatecrash Edition
    ok i have just opened the box no 2 and with that swap it worked like a charm.. awesome..

    im still unsure about the box no 1...
    Posted in: New Card Discussion
  • posted a message on Box Mapping Thread - GTC Gatecrash Edition
    Quote from Vinzito
    Actually, if you just swap the 2 and 5 that I've highlighted in box 2, it should work.

    Box 1 looks like it has 4 removals, which isn't too bad, you could probably just space them out.


    Actually, just space two of them out and you'll be fine. Like this:


    The two red packs are the empty spaces we've made. But you'll still put them in your sleeve map.

    The two green packs are the extras we have left over after shifting everything.

    Ok ill try this.. but.. in the box 1 what i do is.. move the 6th row to the first row? so originally like this?


    to something like this?


    then rmove the two packs you told me? like this?


    or how did you come up with the pattern?


    where do the 5,1,2 from the first row came from?...
    Posted in: New Card Discussion
  • posted a message on Box Mapping Thread - GTC Gatecrash Edition
    Ok so i have cracked 2 boxes perfectly.. then i got 2 more.. and WHOa.. this things are beyond scrambled .. neither the app nor me have a clue on how to Unscramble this.. PLEASE HELP.

    Here are the sleeve maps.

    Being: 1.- Boros 2.-Orzhov 3.-Simic 4.- Gruul 5.-Dimir

    Box 1:


    Box 2:


    From the first one i can figure out maybe some row shifting and some pack removals.. but the second one?..OMFG whats up with that box...

    Please help..
    Posted in: New Card Discussion
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer]The Nightmare Effect
    Hey guys.. i couldnt type before.. but here are my thoughts..

    Ok Enchantress (probably one of my top 3 all time fave decks).. is not really big on any meta.. in a 100 people tournament youll probably see 1 2 if lucky.. so i wouldnt worry, and the only card that i could recomend using against it is dystopia because it also covers some other decks. Irini seems like a cool idea if you run an entomb toolbox package but if not, forget it.

    As for the Removal i believe in the main 4 shriekmaw 4 gatekeeper, 3 horror (ping) Vampire nighthawk and Stinkly are pretty much enough removal.. but i have needed some more in the past mostly against goblins.. i used to ran 2 smothers on the Sb but in the end i cut them to put my secret tech back then wich was to splash blue to take affinity down, as for the gobs i ran 2 eng plagues but that was never enough and my matches were pretty even specially against the Red black version of goblins.

    Ratchet bomb is not really working, and ill probably ran powder keg instead just because it hits artifact lands, you could also try to splash green for pernicious deed, but this has been discussed before and to me is not worth it.

    Nantuko shade is a really bad card in this deck, too mana intensive and with no evasion.. Shade was made to be in Control decks period.

    Victim of night could be a good option since it hits everything in affinity and most of the other decks in any meta.

    Here is the last Sb i played competively.

    2 Pithing Needle
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Energy Flux
    2 Dystopia
    3 Smother
    2 Engineered Plague

    Pithing needles are pretty pretty good even if you ran revokers in main.. i would change it a bit nowadays.. a light splash is fine with me.. and you can always think of cards to fit in the sb that totally hose decks like enchantress.. but i dont think is worth it..

    Im tired but ill try to post what it could be my new sb tomorrow.. cheers
    Posted in: Legacy Archives
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer]The Nightmare Effect
    Well im an advocate of the leyline now.. although i have used the faerie with some success in the past ( mostly when i ran an entomb package).. as for the mindbreak trap well its good, but only against one deck so its probably not worth it now, it all depends on your meta, but you could always pack some more disruption against those decks ( cabal therapy perhaps.. lol...).

    As for affinity well, that has been by far (with goblins) my hardest matchups in the past.. im not sure what list ar eyou using but for me affinity game 1 is almost unwinnable, and game 2 and 3 were hard enough for me to splash blue for energy flux.

    And if there werent for Drawma the humanity will be pretty dull so.. let there be Dramatic... cause we are all (as John Lovitz put it) ACTING!!!
    Posted in: Legacy Archives
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer]The Nightmare Effect
    Quote from votan

    About Therapy: I'm sorry, but the argument that a card is great for some people and not to others doesn't cut it. It's either worth it or not, we can't have both. Someone is playing the card wrong or someone is playing the whole deck wrong and seeing the Therapy as a great card when it's not. I don't know which is the right choice (playing or cutting it), but they can't both be right...

    Well i must repeat myself again here, Cabal theraphy is not an easy card to play, and im not saying im the absolute master here but if you are not good on reading game scenarios or you are not familiar with your metagame i would suggest to cut it.

    The only way that you are going to know if its good for you is testing.. i came to my conclusion by testing the deck through a whole season of tournaments and i did pretty well, i cant remember a time where therapy was a bad draw, and i can remember a lot of times that it potentially won me the game.

    Quote from martian007
    I think that it can't be so difficult to arrive to an agreement on Cabal Therapy. I agree with all the Namida's arguments so far: we don't want potentially useless cards, and we don't want to kill our own creatures, since we don't run creatures that come back to the battlefield every turn as Pox does

    Quote from Namida
    at best, Cabal Therapy is a powerful card that strips your opponent's hand and also functions as a sacrifice outlet for your creatures. At worst, it's a gimmicky card that is strictly worst than a Peek that lets you kill creatures (in a deck that I maintain shouldn't be wanting to kill its own creatures).

    As for these comments well, it is not that you WANT to kill your creatures badly and therefore i need a card that allows me to do that lol, the thing is.. that Tortured Existence+Krovikan Horror allows me to be able to sac any creature i want if i need to take something from my opponents hand, now im losing a creature here.. or lets say a body.. but with the main engine of TE and KH ill get it back, im also getting back the comes into play ability of that creature and im taking something that may disrupt my plans from my opponents hand.. now im no mathematician here but to me it is well worth it.

    Now i will also say that i only play 2 of them because you generally dont want to have it on your first hand, but if you do is not abad thing and as Namida says in this scenario it is like a peek, im not saying its worst cause you have flashback instead of a cantrip, but i digress..

    I don't know why people underestimate the fact that you are seeing your opponent hand, i mean that is e very powerful effect and to this day not many people realize this, imagine you playing a blind therapy on turn 2 after you have seen at least one of his lands... imagine you didnt hit nothing ( most likely you will cause everyone plays almost the same metadecks.. for this ill list some choices below).. ok you hit nothing but you got to see his hand, now you know if yoou can safely play your TE, or if he has a counter for ir, or a qasali pridemage or if you can play your horror on turn 4 without fear of getting it Sworded.. that is big advantage.. not to mention that in the mid to late game they have to focus on so many things from our side and the therapy will help you wreck any answer he may have for either your horror, the tortured existence, the nighthawk equipped with jitte, liliana or the confidant... most of the times is just too much to handle.

    as i say the therapy is a skill intensive card, and most of the times its potential is reduced by the turn where yo play it and the game scenario itself.

    My scale of efficiency would be something like this.

    turn 1 blind = 05% turn 1 while on the draw = 20%
    turn 2 blind = 15% turn 2 while on the draw = 35%
    turn 3 blind = 40% turn 3 while on the draw = 45%
    turn 4 blind = 60% turn 4 while on the draw = 70%

    turn 2 flashback = 100% turn 2 flashback while on the draw = 100%
    turn 3 flashback = 100% turn 3 flashback while on the draw = 100%
    turn 4 flashback = 100% turn 4 flashback while on the draw = 100%

    after a duress, iok etc = 100%

    so tell me why is that bad?..

    It is obvious what cards you are looking for in a blind therapy situation, if you have only seen a tropical island, or even a plains.. you will always say cards that may either win the game for the opponent or prevents you from winning,, and the later option doesnt have that many.. to list a few.

    force of will
    swords to plowshares
    qasali pridemage
    senseis divining top
    goblin lackey
    arcbound ravager
    cranial plating
    dark confidant

    those help the opponent win the game and positively disrupt us if they land it on the table so to me they are the things i fear the most, but here is where i have to say that you need a lot of skill on knowing what the opponent is playing, because if they play a tropical island they are playing some sord of threshold or zoo, maybe counterbalanc ein my opinion.. but if they play an underground sea they could be playing control, reanimator, ad nauseamor even Pox.. so it gets tricky.. still dont be afraid of just.. naming a black lotus and seeing their hand.. because that is something you shouldnt look down on.

    again never play more than 2.. unless you end up loving what this card does against combo and you play one more in the side..

    Still dont believe me go try it.. and like Pingu said if it feels right for you fine if it doesnt.. cut it..

    To answer Namida in a nutshell.. Cabal therapy is Good in fact i is one of the best disruption cards ever, but it is skill intensive and it is not for everyone.. at least in this deck..

    then again this deck is not for everyone, i have stated before that this deck is pretty skill intensive and it handles like if you were in a surgery room.. you have to be precise and be aware of all the things happening in the game or youll miss some sweet sweet plays.

    Im going to be testing it on Mws if anyone cares to join me PM me..

    If anyone wants my latest build let me know..

    cheers and keep the debate going.. Smile
    Posted in: Legacy Archives
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer]The Nightmare Effect
    well well as i said i like percy as a card but in this deck he is not needed, as for the therapy hell yes on its own its always good its a potential 2 for 1 at least and sometimes alot more than that if it happens to give you some interaction bonuses with the rest of your cards thats just swell for me.. i must say that it is a very slill intensive card and im not under estimating anyone but to me that could be the only reason not to run it.

    as for me not running 4 hymns, well i played a lot last uear with aun full set and i always hated to draw one of those when i have wrecked my opponnents hand so i did some maths and i came woth that distribution, things have changed nowadays and i probablu need to re think about running thoughtseizes instead of iok but since where i live now there are nl legacy tourneys i dont play this fpomat that often...

    oh and please please play and test this deck before even considering to post your opinions because on paper it is really deceiving.

    anyway keep the nightmare alive...
    Posted in: Legacy Archives
  • posted a message on [Deck/Primer]The Nightmare Effect
    Quote from votan

    I had to quote this, because I think it's a mistake people make too often. A lot of times you see this cool combo and you want to put it in your deck. This is actually a good combo, but the thing you should be thinking about is "can any of these cards justify its slot on its own?". The answer is no, thus, you shouldn't run them. You want consistency in your decks and whenever you are putting a bad (or non-optimal) card in your list so that another bad card becomes playable, you're better off cutting both.

    i must agree with the main point here.. i do like percy but he is not needed at all, i disagree with the therapy though as a 2 of it is amazingly good against combo and or control decks and having a quick way to sac a bob that could kill you an imp to get more beef or even a gatekeeper to recurr him while wrecking an opponnents hand is not bad at all.

    alas the disruption suite has been discussed a lot and it all depends on taste or metagame calla.. for me 4 inquisition 2 therapy and 3 hymn plus 2 liliana is the way to go at the moment..
    Posted in: Legacy Archives
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