i am really digging that red interaction with the nightmare... even though it takes away from the base mechanic it keeps the deck from being a 1 trick pony... imho. i used deckbuilder.net to create and test this little treasure
it runs very smooth and the rituals in this particular build are never a dead draw!!
is there a "reasonable" way to hasten the +1+1 counters on necroplasm he is a sick leveler across the board
Well after testing your list i agree that the ravenous rats are unnecessary, and in my opinion the spawning pits too, i would prefer runing zombie infestations instead, since we are already running squee and krovikan and cause i love that card, the singleton diabolic intent hasnt done anything for me so id cut it in the same way we cut the beseech the queen ofthe original posts.
What i really like about your list wa sthe solemn simulacrum and the necroplasm, although yeah i also believe hes a bit slow sometimes and i died too many times against angr elves cause i had to wait a whole turn to kill them, so maybe a plague spitter or the crypt rats are better for that?
The mogg war marshal is useful sometimes, but most of the times is overkill, the gargaddon doesnt really need it and is not really good for anything else.
I really believe that buried alive has to be at least a 3 of, if not 4... since it is our primary card advantage enabler and or tutor.
the oversold cemetery, or oath of ghouls is really a good choice, i would run it in the sb as a 3 of, and change the tortured existence for them in game 2 since everyone gets prepared against it mostly with pithing needle, although most of the times if they do that they also board tormods crypt or any other grave hate and that shuts tortured existence, oversold and oath of ghouls o im not sure if its worht it.
I really believe we should think of a plan aganst game 2 grave hate, being able to win without it, or even maybe do a deck transformation in game 2.
Hey man, well as far as i can see that is just a whole other deck hahaha..
I like the idea of the armaggedons, but it would be good if you could exploit them a bit more, and since you wont get any really good advantage by discarding the whole hand you could try precission discard again.
The Pikula build is really good at that, consider.
Tidehollow sculler
Flagstones of trokair
Smallpox
Tangle wire
Mindslicer
Just throwing ideas here, but i really think that if you are splashing white, there are cards that are auto includes, and those are Gerrards verdict, STP and Vindicate.
Keep working on it.. I will try to make one with Red splashed just cause blightning is soooo goood.
// Spells
4 [TSP] Smallpox
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [VI] Funeral Charm
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [AQ] The Rack
4 [GP] Cry of Contrition
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
So far i've been trying to make this kind of deck work so i will list the cards i put in my latest version and explain how it all work together.
Chrome mox: in this scenario a better accelerator than dark ritual, not more than 3 though.
Wasteland: a must
Urborg: helps to bypass the you draw too much colorless mana lands and make swamps so if needed you can get swampwalk with funeral charm
Dark confidant: He is a must because it is the best card to get card advantage at a small price.
Bloodghast: sinergy with cabal therapy, smallpox, innocent blood and its a constant pain in the ass,
Abyssal persecutor: big bad MOFO with practically no drawbacks.
Hymn to tourach: No brainer
Cabal therapy: Awesome because it lets you discard more than one card, if you are lucky guessing or you do your homework on your meta you can get a card advantage even greater than with hymn.
The Rack: My fave way of killing with this archetype.
Funeral charm: fast, reliable, instant discard, noble hierarch killer, and sometimes an evasion or boost enabler, whats not to love?
Cry of contrition: if played correctly you get a 2 for 1 constantly.
Smallpox: It does so much, helps cry of contrition, helps the land kill and helps if you play abyssal persecutor or if you need to get rid of confidant.
Innocent blood: read up.
Now for the cards that didnt made the cut.
Duress, Inquisition of Kozileck and all those pinpoint discard like thoughtseize:
These are no good i mean yeah they are great but you most likely want to discard a lot of cards not an specific one.
These would only be needed in a late game scenario when you face a wall and cannot hit your opponent, this meaning you dont have a rack or you didnt discarded his whole hand properly, if that is what happenned you are dead anyway so.. probably a couple on the SB i dunno.
Jitte: this is something that may be awesome but i just dont kow what to take out for it, and theres also the thing that i dont really have that many critters to fully exploit it.
Tombstalker: call me crazy but Dark Confidant+Tombstalker is a no no, besides with 3 sacrifice outlets persecutor is better in everyway.
Hypnotic Specter: well it is a fact that if you dont run dark ritual, you dont run hippie so...
What do you guys think.. ill be waiting for some input..
Well i modified my black list, i havent bothered in testing the Red/Black option, this mainly cause as you said, it is almost another deck all together.
So far i love the viscera seer addition, hes a lot better than the feeder, right now im using a 3-3 combination this just to be sure to draw a sac outlet each game.. but i may up the viscera to a 4 and down the feeder im not sure right now.
I really believe wastelands are an option.
The zombie infestation is the bomb, it has literally changed my whole game when i draw it.. its like changing gears.. ill put an example.
plays fetch, goes for volcanic island and plays ponder.
t1- swamp, carrion feeder
He lands an ancient tomb and plays a brainstorm
t2 - cabal therapy (naming FOW, i saw a sneak attack emrakul and progenitus in hand plus a fetchland and an ancient tomb and a lotus petal), sac feeder to cabal naming sneak attack, play wasteland destroy volcanic.
he draws another sneak attack plays fetch to go for another volcanic island , lotus petal and plays sneak attack.
t3 - Viscera seer, Wasteland to another volcanic.
He dosent get the land and passes,
t4 - I get a swamp play shriekmaw for evoke and sac to scry a feeder.
he gets a city of traitors.
t5 - I draw zombie infestation.. play it discard 2 krovikan put a zombie, at end step i get one back
he gets an island but dont pay it cause he only has emrakul progenitus, and island, with one city of traitors in play.
t6.- i scry a zombie and get a mesmeric after i put a swamp at the bottom. play it and nightmare effect on emrakul. i get my 2 krovikans
after that he scooped when he saw the zombie recurr effect.
Ok its not an ideal game.. but as i see this deck can win games with a not so good hand and that is what matters.
For now i believe 3-2 shriekmaw and gatekeeper combination is th best way to go.
As for the planeswalker kill options well, at least 3 pithing needle in sideboard are a must so theres one, you could always include vampire hexmage at least one, buried alive is a great tutor here, im currently running crypt rats as it does the same as thrashing wumpus cost less and it dies by itself which is good in this deck.
Im not sure about the twisted abomination i havent tested it so ill try.. and 1 avatar of woe is really a classy thing to ad in my opinion id use him instead of pathhazer, but maybe not instead of terastodon.
another tech im trying is to use the snow covered swamps instead of normal swamps to abuse Withering wisps in the sideboard...
And i may be wrong but i propose a real debate on dark ritual, although i really like the fact that i can go carrion cabal TE firtst turn, or the ability to play corpsedance with buyback faster im not sure if its worth the loss of a card.. plus it is a horrendous draw in a late game ( and late games are what we get the most.)
It's not infinite because the end step only happens once. As soon as you bring the horror back to your hand, pitching it again won't bring it back till next end step.
As i see it it happens like this.
you have 3 krovikan in grave all right on top of each other, so a the beginning of the end step the abillity triggers you return 1 to your hand and pitch it with infestation with some other card while the bottom horror abillity is still on the stack then the top horror will triggering by having the one you just thrown in there, so you return both and so on.
Im not sure but since it says during the end of the turn.. or am i missing some errata here?
Well either way if its not infinite itsmaybe 2 or 3 zombies per end step and thats not bad either right?
Well i've been following this thread for the past week and i must say im really into this idea.
so far i've tested almost all of what you guys have thrown in here, and i must say i found some things better than others.. as for example i was sure that vial must be here, but not even in the Black/Red list has proven to be worthy.
also the gargadon idea is pretty neat.. and the fact that you can put a nightmare effect by removing a counter on him is amazing. so thats a plus on that build.
although i must say i believe im a lot more into the Mono black version cause it is harder to disrupt, ive been testing a list and it has proven to be the best for me ill put it here along with my version of the BR build, but before that correct me if im wrong here..
zombie infestation + 3 krovikan horror = infinite zombie tokens at the end of turn right?... i am pretty sure but i mean did i miss this interaction in the post, did someone wrote it and i just overlooked?.. cause that is sick.
// Spells
3 [OD] Zombie Infestation
3 [WL] Buried Alive
3 [TE] Corpse Dance
4 [SH] Tortured Existence
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [DDC] Dark Ritual
I will explain why did i choose those questionable cards.. It is pretty simple Cabal therapy is the best discard outlet you can have in this deck caus eit doesnt affect you if you need to sac a creature and if you can take 2 or 3+ cards with one single therapy its ☺☺☺☺ing great.
The mesmeric is there cause even if it takes a card temporarily you will be able to re use him most of the time in a more permanent way later.
The zombie infestation is for that combo i mentioned earlier.
Im not sure about the buried alive as a 3 of, i mean it is so ☺☺☺☺ing important to cast one of this most of the times that i may put the 4th one in there.
I just swear that testing in MWS is really not reliable for this deck, most of the times i get hands that ar ejust outright unbearable, so i recomend you all to try it on real cards.
As for the sb well it will all depend on the meta, but im sure 3 to 4 pithing needle are a must here ( to stop tormods, survival etc).. and i saw in some other forum a guy that wanted to throw in the doomsday combo in this deck.. well that could be a great idea if you just transfomrm your deck using 6 to 7 cards in your sb hehe.
as for the 4CMC walkeR? whats the deal with that? im curious?.. hehe
waiting for your next post...
Well after testing your list i agree that the ravenous rats are unnecessary, and in my opinion the spawning pits too, i would prefer runing zombie infestations instead, since we are already running squee and krovikan and cause i love that card, the singleton diabolic intent hasnt done anything for me so id cut it in the same way we cut the beseech the queen ofthe original posts.
What i really like about your list wa sthe solemn simulacrum and the necroplasm, although yeah i also believe hes a bit slow sometimes and i died too many times against angr elves cause i had to wait a whole turn to kill them, so maybe a plague spitter or the crypt rats are better for that?
The mogg war marshal is useful sometimes, but most of the times is overkill, the gargaddon doesnt really need it and is not really good for anything else.
I really believe that buried alive has to be at least a 3 of, if not 4... since it is our primary card advantage enabler and or tutor.
the oversold cemetery, or oath of ghouls is really a good choice, i would run it in the sb as a 3 of, and change the tortured existence for them in game 2 since everyone gets prepared against it mostly with pithing needle, although most of the times if they do that they also board tormods crypt or any other grave hate and that shuts tortured existence, oversold and oath of ghouls o im not sure if its worht it.
I really believe we should think of a plan aganst game 2 grave hate, being able to win without it, or even maybe do a deck transformation in game 2.
I like the idea of the armaggedons, but it would be good if you could exploit them a bit more, and since you wont get any really good advantage by discarding the whole hand you could try precission discard again.
The Pikula build is really good at that, consider.
Tidehollow sculler
Flagstones of trokair
Smallpox
Tangle wire
Mindslicer
Just throwing ideas here, but i really think that if you are splashing white, there are cards that are auto includes, and those are Gerrards verdict, STP and Vindicate.
Keep working on it.. I will try to make one with Red splashed just cause blightning is soooo goood.
first my current list.
13 [TSP] Swamp (1)
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures
3 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
// Spells
4 [TSP] Smallpox
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [VI] Funeral Charm
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [AQ] The Rack
4 [GP] Cry of Contrition
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
1 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
So far i've been trying to make this kind of deck work so i will list the cards i put in my latest version and explain how it all work together.
Chrome mox: in this scenario a better accelerator than dark ritual, not more than 3 though.
Wasteland: a must
Urborg: helps to bypass the you draw too much colorless mana lands and make swamps so if needed you can get swampwalk with funeral charm
Dark confidant: He is a must because it is the best card to get card advantage at a small price.
Bloodghast: sinergy with cabal therapy, smallpox, innocent blood and its a constant pain in the ass,
Abyssal persecutor: big bad MOFO with practically no drawbacks.
Hymn to tourach: No brainer
Cabal therapy: Awesome because it lets you discard more than one card, if you are lucky guessing or you do your homework on your meta you can get a card advantage even greater than with hymn.
The Rack: My fave way of killing with this archetype.
Funeral charm: fast, reliable, instant discard, noble hierarch killer, and sometimes an evasion or boost enabler, whats not to love?
Cry of contrition: if played correctly you get a 2 for 1 constantly.
Smallpox: It does so much, helps cry of contrition, helps the land kill and helps if you play abyssal persecutor or if you need to get rid of confidant.
Innocent blood: read up.
Now for the cards that didnt made the cut.
Duress, Inquisition of Kozileck and all those pinpoint discard like thoughtseize:
These are no good i mean yeah they are great but you most likely want to discard a lot of cards not an specific one.
Smother, diabolic Edict, Doom blade, snuffout etc...:
These would only be needed in a late game scenario when you face a wall and cannot hit your opponent, this meaning you dont have a rack or you didnt discarded his whole hand properly, if that is what happenned you are dead anyway so.. probably a couple on the SB i dunno.
Jitte: this is something that may be awesome but i just dont kow what to take out for it, and theres also the thing that i dont really have that many critters to fully exploit it.
Tombstalker: call me crazy but Dark Confidant+Tombstalker is a no no, besides with 3 sacrifice outlets persecutor is better in everyway.
Hypnotic Specter: well it is a fact that if you dont run dark ritual, you dont run hippie so...
What do you guys think.. ill be waiting for some input..
or maybe i should wite a primer over this?..
Well i modified my black list, i havent bothered in testing the Red/Black option, this mainly cause as you said, it is almost another deck all together.
So far i love the viscera seer addition, hes a lot better than the feeder, right now im using a 3-3 combination this just to be sure to draw a sac outlet each game.. but i may up the viscera to a 4 and down the feeder im not sure right now.
I really believe wastelands are an option.
The zombie infestation is the bomb, it has literally changed my whole game when i draw it.. its like changing gears.. ill put an example.
Hand:
carrion feeder
shriekmaw
swamp
wasteland
cabal therapy
viscera seer
krovikan horror
first 3 draws:
krovikan horror
swamp
wasteland
zombie infestation
Turns breakdown:
He starts
plays fetch, goes for volcanic island and plays ponder.
t1- swamp, carrion feeder
He lands an ancient tomb and plays a brainstorm
t2 - cabal therapy (naming FOW, i saw a sneak attack emrakul and progenitus in hand plus a fetchland and an ancient tomb and a lotus petal), sac feeder to cabal naming sneak attack, play wasteland destroy volcanic.
he draws another sneak attack plays fetch to go for another volcanic island , lotus petal and plays sneak attack.
t3 - Viscera seer, Wasteland to another volcanic.
He dosent get the land and passes,
t4 - I get a swamp play shriekmaw for evoke and sac to scry a feeder.
he gets a city of traitors.
t5 - I draw zombie infestation.. play it discard 2 krovikan put a zombie, at end step i get one back
he gets an island but dont pay it cause he only has emrakul progenitus, and island, with one city of traitors in play.
t6.- i scry a zombie and get a mesmeric after i put a swamp at the bottom. play it and nightmare effect on emrakul. i get my 2 krovikans
after that he scooped when he saw the zombie recurr effect.
Ok its not an ideal game.. but as i see this deck can win games with a not so good hand and that is what matters.
For now i believe 3-2 shriekmaw and gatekeeper combination is th best way to go.
As for the planeswalker kill options well, at least 3 pithing needle in sideboard are a must so theres one, you could always include vampire hexmage at least one, buried alive is a great tutor here, im currently running crypt rats as it does the same as thrashing wumpus cost less and it dies by itself which is good in this deck.
Im not sure about the twisted abomination i havent tested it so ill try.. and 1 avatar of woe is really a classy thing to ad in my opinion id use him instead of pathhazer, but maybe not instead of terastodon.
another tech im trying is to use the snow covered swamps instead of normal swamps to abuse Withering wisps in the sideboard...
And i may be wrong but i propose a real debate on dark ritual, although i really like the fact that i can go carrion cabal TE firtst turn, or the ability to play corpsedance with buyback faster im not sure if its worth the loss of a card.. plus it is a horrendous draw in a late game ( and late games are what we get the most.)
anyway heres my list.
// Lands
18 [IA] Snow-Covered Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures
4 [AL] Krovikan Horror
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
3 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend
3 [SC] Carrion Feeder
1 [VI] Crypt Rats
1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
2 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 [SC] Twisted Abomination
1 [PY] Avatar of Woe
3 [M11] Viscera Seer
// Spells
3 [OD] Zombie Infestation
3 [WL] Buried Alive
2 [TE] Corpse Dance
4 [SH] Tortured Existence
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [IA] Withering Wisps
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
As i see it it happens like this.
you have 3 krovikan in grave all right on top of each other, so a the beginning of the end step the abillity triggers you return 1 to your hand and pitch it with infestation with some other card while the bottom horror abillity is still on the stack then the top horror will triggering by having the one you just thrown in there, so you return both and so on.
Im not sure but since it says during the end of the turn.. or am i missing some errata here?
Well either way if its not infinite itsmaybe 2 or 3 zombies per end step and thats not bad either right?
so far i've tested almost all of what you guys have thrown in here, and i must say i found some things better than others.. as for example i was sure that vial must be here, but not even in the Black/Red list has proven to be worthy.
also the gargadon idea is pretty neat.. and the fact that you can put a nightmare effect by removing a counter on him is amazing. so thats a plus on that build.
although i must say i believe im a lot more into the Mono black version cause it is harder to disrupt, ive been testing a list and it has proven to be the best for me ill put it here along with my version of the BR build, but before that correct me if im wrong here..
zombie infestation + 3 krovikan horror = infinite zombie tokens at the end of turn right?... i am pretty sure but i mean did i miss this interaction in the post, did someone wrote it and i just overlooked?.. cause that is sick.
ok heres my Black version.
// Lands
22 [SHM] Swamp (1)
// Creatures
4 [AL] Krovikan Horror
1 [ALA] Fleshbag Marauder
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend
4 [SC] Carrion Feeder
1 [ROE] Pathrazer of Ulamog
// Spells
3 [OD] Zombie Infestation
3 [WL] Buried Alive
3 [TE] Corpse Dance
4 [SH] Tortured Existence
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [DDC] Dark Ritual
I will explain why did i choose those questionable cards.. It is pretty simple Cabal therapy is the best discard outlet you can have in this deck caus eit doesnt affect you if you need to sac a creature and if you can take 2 or 3+ cards with one single therapy its ☺☺☺☺ing great.
The mesmeric is there cause even if it takes a card temporarily you will be able to re use him most of the time in a more permanent way later.
The zombie infestation is for that combo i mentioned earlier.
Im not sure about the buried alive as a 3 of, i mean it is so ☺☺☺☺ing important to cast one of this most of the times that i may put the 4th one in there.
I just swear that testing in MWS is really not reliable for this deck, most of the times i get hands that ar ejust outright unbearable, so i recomend you all to try it on real cards.
As for the sb well it will all depend on the meta, but im sure 3 to 4 pithing needle are a must here ( to stop tormods, survival etc).. and i saw in some other forum a guy that wanted to throw in the doomsday combo in this deck.. well that could be a great idea if you just transfomrm your deck using 6 to 7 cards in your sb hehe.
ok now heres my B/R list.
// Lands
11 [UG] Swamp
4 [ZEN] Mountain (3)
4 [B] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
// Creatures
1 [ALA] Fleshbag Marauder
1 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
2 [SC] Carrion Feeder
4 [TSP] Greater Gargadon
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
1 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend
3 [SHM] Demigod of Revenge
1 [ARB] Anathemancer
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [UL] Avalanche Riders
4 [AL] Krovikan Horror
// Spells
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [SH] Tortured Existence
3 [WL] Buried Alive
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
I havent tested this.. so im just throwing it in..
well.. lets keep polishing this idea guys it might be competitive if we manage to make the sinergy at 100%
cheers