This is the most ridiculous statement without any analysis I've ever seen.
Ember Hauler ALWAYS gets in for 2. Unless of course you are a bad player, and play it turn 2 against a deck running removal. Scamp gets in for 4 SOMETIMES, and sometimes he gets in for 0. Scamp is just too situational. This deck relies on being consistent, and Furnace Scamp just isn't a consistent card.
Hauler can also be a great chump blocker, then fling 2 to the dome. He is the most versatile creature available to us right now.
I readily agree to your thoughts on hauler, but the consistent version is simply too slow. The thing to speed it up, IMO, is Scamp. The t1 scamp t2 guide is murderous. We can't afford to see a hand with a hauler, burn, and land. It's not creature-heavy enough. Once hauler's done, and our hand doesn't add to 20, we're in bad shape.
Scamp provides a faster, streamlined alternative.
@Tokwana, your analysis is usually good. I've heard your posts on WWQuest, etc. I think you need to test hauler a bit more.
These decks seem land/koth heavy. Staggershock is also shrine dependant. Otherwise staggershock can just clog your hand. A 3/3 split between dismember and flame slash solves the U/W problem quite handily. I would definately consider finding the slots for Leyline of Punishment as any sort of Lifelink will just roll you. I would quite happily drop Koth for the leyline. You have inevitability when the opponent has 8 life or less you should at least concentrate sum of your sideboards with keeping it that way.
I have been testing my current future league list (soon to be legal) on mws against Legacy decks online as that is the only format where you can play certain cards atm. With my current side and main i would say im about 40-60. Yes u read that right. I dont claim to be winning. However my list is playing a format with MUCH much harder competition and only with cards that are now or soon to be standard legal.
Ie Stoneforge/batterskull are widely used, and wide use of daze and force of will and brainstorm/jace. Tarmogoyf really needs no explanation.
I will post it for you guys to take a look at when it gets legal.
All i will say is that furnace scamp is a lot better for providing a lightning rod/forced block fodder for goblin guide than he looks.
Your decks need to run a lot more sligh and a lot less mid range red.
First of all... there is no UW problem. There is no caw problem. There is no jace problem. There is no stoneforge problem.
Second: Who the hell cares how your list does vs. tarmogoyf? We play standard here.
Third: Furnace Scamp belongs in sullired. Not MRS.
Fourth: Playing a leyline to counter lifegain... it'd be easier just to into the core the wurmcoil, etc.
Fifth: Koth is awesome. Quote "Koth is one of the few non-caw awesome cards in standard" ~Josh Silvestri. Koth is just so powerful... still perhaps I'd only use 2-3 and add some aggro, maybe cut some land.
Sixth: For B/r vamps, I have always loved arc trail and also tuk tuk the explorer, if you really have trouble. As sushi said, in the hands of a skilled pilot who knows what to do and what to kill, you should be fine.
Seventh: For the bit about vandal being a risk... well you answered it yourself :). We're playing RDW here.
On the whole, the deck is still sometimes too slow for me. Four spikeshots is too much. The card is not that powerful, and painfully slow. Hence the two Kiln Fiends.
Perhaps four Koth is excessive as well; cutting 1-2 Koths and a few lands to streamline the approach deserves to be tested at least.
This is the version of Shrine Red I have been playing. Let me explain the card choices.
4 Goblin Guide - This guy should be an obvious inclusion no matter what version of Red you are playing. T1 Goblin Guide will lead to the majority of your wins.
4 Spikeshot Elder- I honestly don't like this guy, but he does give you a way to get some reach without using your spells. Let's just say a strict upgrade is on the way.
4 Kiln Fiend - In my opinion, without having to worry about Hawks and Swords, this guy is easily better than Ember Hauler. With a 'nut' draw, this guy makes your deck capable of a turn 3 kill, although he will normally just hit for 4 following a removal spell. Alot of people do not like Kiln Fiend, and I would just tell them they aren't patient enough. Just because you have Kiln Fiend doesn't mean you have to dump all your burn unless you know he wont die(playing vs green, they tapped out, whatever). This guy allows you to get value from your Bolts, Dismembers, and Flame Slashes when you are on board clearing duty, turns your Searing Blazes into THREE bolts, gives you extra value off Staggershock, etc.
2 Flame Slash - For killing Spellskites and Walls of various types, mostly. 4 Dismembers just wasn't enough and I wanted to increase my percentages of being able to kill a wall on turn 2 or 3, which generally puts you way ahead of Valakut.
4 Searing Blaze - Probably the best follow up to T1 Guide is Blazing their blocker and getting in there. Just like Bolt is an auto-in, I think this should be also...because it is two bolts in one.
4 Dismember - This and Kiln Fiend are the two cards I could see myself getting flak for playing, but honestly I think it is necessary. You have to be able to kill Walls, as I previously mentioned, but Dismember also pulls alot of extra duty. Baneslayer, Exarch, Firewalker, and Phyrexian Crusader are the main targets. It also gives us an out to Vulshok Refugee in the mirror.
4 Staggershock - This card is super flexible, and very powerful. Sometimes it kills two guys, sometimes it 4s the face, sometimes it does a combination of the two. I have killed multiple Titans off the rebound of this card coupled with Flame Slash or Dismember. Doubles up Shrine counters too, which cannot be ignored.
4 Shrine of Burning Rage - Speaking of Shrine, this card is the truth now. Prior to the bannings maindeck artifact removal was everywhere, so it could be hard to get full value, but that is no longer the case. The speed at which we accumulate counters is insane, and Shrining the opponent for 7+ on turn 6 isn't uncommon. One of the main ways to win the mirror match.
3 Koth of the Hammer - The other main way to win the mirror, and he also happens to be a dominating play against Control decks and Valakut if they are behind. I really wanted to play 4, but for land count reasons I had to have something give way, and 1 Koth is generally all the Koth you need.
Mountains - duh.
4 Teetering Peaks - Has synergy with Spikeshot while we are still playing that guy, lets guide attack for 4. Sometimes it is troubling to have multiples in your opening hand as it detempos you alot, but that risk it mitigated by the large amount of advantage the extra pressure gives.
8 Fetchlands - The deck thinning is negligible, but cannot be ignored. Gotta get every advantage you can. Also allows you to Blaze with landfall on the opponents turn.
OTHER CARDS TO CONSIDER
Burst Lightning - I, personally, hate this card. I do my best when playing red not to include Shocks in my deck. They just aren't efficient enough. The kicker is nice, but with Shrine and Koth we have plenty of late finishing power.
Ember Hauler - Lost alot of value when you worry less about equipment. As I said in the Burst Lightning section, 1 mana for 2 damage isn't that efficient a use of mana.
Plated Geopede - Gives us more value for our fetchlands and almost never loses combat. Could be played in place of Kiln Fiend.
SIDEBOARD OPTIONS
Vulshok Refugee - Either play this guy, or have answers to this guy. He decides the red mirror match like no other card.
Combust - More outs to Splinter Twin combo, except Spellskite and counter spells can't stop this one.
Tuktuk, The Explorer - Vampires is often a very rough match-up, and this guy gives us some power there. Since most lists prefer Go for the Throat over Doom Blade, that leaves them only 4 Dismember as outs to the token.
Arc Trail - I don't think this card is maindeckable as long as Twin and Valakut are major players, but it is a decent sideboard option for the mirror or Vampires.
Mark of Mutiny/Act of Aggression - Steals Titans and turns them to our uses. I prefer Mark for the power boost, but Act has applications in Splinter Twin also(although, in my opinion, if a Twin player loses to that card you would have beat them anyway because they are bad).
Shatter/Manic Vandal/Crush - Just because Caw-Blade is gone does not mean these aren't playable. Tezzeret exists, and there are enough playable artifacts I wouldn't be surprised to find value targets.
My thoughts:
Yes, you're going to get flack for playing the flame slashes. They were decent for caw, and now they're preetty bad. Especially with four dismembers in the main.
On that same train, four dismembers is two too many. the life loss seems excessive to me.
As for Kiln Fiend, I have no real objection. I just play two rather than four.
Ember Hauler is really good once you try it. Relying on Kiln Fiend is not a good way to win.
Burst is also a sweet shrine-juice, and can be kicked for the win.
3 Koth is really fine, when considering the land count and curve.
SIDEBOARD:
Act is better than mark. You can steal the win from PesterTwin, and otherwise it's really just as good.
2 Tuktuk seems good vs. vamps
I would add arc trail, sweet vs. mirror and aggro.
Vandal seems better than shatter, the 2/2 bear is actually a big part of RDW.
Having tested both (extensively), I would say that both are somewhat noob additons... geopede is really bad. Just bad. Chumpable, inconsistent, bad lategame (no lands).
Fiend is decent, but not consistent or reliable. I would go 2 or 0 Fiend and 0 geopede.
To adjust to the post ban meta, (valakut), we need to take out some slower cards and add faster ones. Kiln fiend is boss vs. vala. Koth, on the other hand, not so much. I mean he's rly good, but a BIT too slow for me. So -2 Koth, +2 Fiend. Also, 4 spikeshot is unnessecary. What you gon spike, the khalni garden plant? So perhaps add 2 Kargan? I really don't know...
she's amazing
splashable check
4cc check
can protect herself check
going to presell for 50$ check...
She is not preselling for $50. On ebay, most auctions sell 4x for $130. So that means... about 32-35 dollars each. And I don't even think she's that good, so she'll drop. The deck she would be used in I guess is RDW, and she's a lot worse than Koth for them... I mean really: get a ping and two twincasts, IF it doesn't just die? Compared to what something like Jace or even Koth or Garruk do, this lady's got nothin. Koth gets a MUCH better +1, a MUCH better -2, and a MUCH better final smash (it's actually gonna happen sometimes). You guys are just thrilled that she's not horribly unplayable, like the old chandra's are. I hope she goes up to 50 dollars, so my Koths might get cheaper.
Refugee was only boarded in once after playing the RDW mirror. It isn't a bad choice, but with shrine of burning rage and dismember's in the sideboard it didn't last long.
Also, Kiln fiend is a house against Valakut. Paul (the guy playing Valakut for 1st-2nd today) commented that Kiln fiend was really bad for his deck. Flame slash and kiln fiend can go the distance against Valakut.
Awesome job.
Now that Jace and Caw are gone, I find hauler unnessecary... thoughts?
Ember Hauler is really overrated. You have to keep mana up to ensure he has evasion, he's a completely obvious combat trick... fiend is a LOT better. This deck has enough burn to ensure he's sweet every single time.
I've been playing around with Furnace Scamp in RDW, and I have found it to be exceptionally useful. It is a nice Turn 1 Drop if you don't get a goblin Guide and can put opponents in tough spots. For example, if they have a lotus cobra on turn 2 and you dropped a t1 scamp. You swing t2 with the scamp (assuming on the draw) and either they will have to take the 4 or they will lose the lotus cobra. If you are on the play it just gets better. T1 Furnace Scamp, T2 Goblin Guide, swing for 6 on turn 2. That just puts you in a really good place to pull out a victory. At the worst, the scamp is a useful chump blocker against larger threats and left alone has the potential to be very damaging.
Also, I'm curious what people thing about the deck I've been playtesting.
The deck seems to be a bit different from what I've been seeing on this forum, so I'm curious. Having Played a more standard list as well, I prefer this one for a couple reasons.
1. Four Dragonlords is just awesome. Not only that, but if you notice the curve on this deck, I'm going to have lots of leftover Mana if games go past about turn 4 and Dragonlord is a perfect funnel. He also is like a gigantic target which will waste opponents resources while I can slowly whittle away at their Life. From testing various numbers of Dragonlords, a full set is the way to go.
2. Kiln Fiend is a really great way to get an extra mile out of your burn spells or Marks. Mark something big they have, bolt something else (even the thing you marked if it has >3 toughness) and you can swing with a very large Kiln Fiend.
3. Chandra Nalaar is just amazing. Either A) she will deflect Damage away from you in an attempt to kill her B) You will be able to go ultimate with her, which is just absolutely devastating. or C) She can help you by picking off big threats that are tough to handle without going ultimate.
4. Mark Of Mutiny is really fun. Either you can steal something (preferably big) from an opponent and beat them with it or boost your own creatures with it (if absolutely necessary), but either way it will cause harm. Especially with a Kiln Fiend Sitting there...
Also, what do people think of Obsidian Fireheart? I really haven't ever seen the fireheart appear on lists before and I am wondering why that is. It also puts a timer on the game which ups the pressure. Combined with other threats that put pressure on opponents (Koth and Chandra for Instance) The Fireheart ups the stakes just enough to be useful. It had a largeish body and can deal with excess mana in a painful way.
Sorry for double post, but this is not even RDW. That is some kind of bizarre control with goblin guide thrown in.
Mono Red Control or Big Red are very different from the aggro RDW.
Chandra's WAY too high on curve. Fireheart's WAY too slow. Same with Urubrask... overall deck is really clunky and bad.
Use the edit button instead of double posting next time.
Souleater/strobe isn't as good, because it's much more costly a loss than kiln fiend. Also, if you aren't looking for an aggro approach, maybe RDW is not the deck for you. Jeez.
I really hated hauler when I played it. Bear, shock, blah, blah. If you're careful with fiend, like me, you can deal absurd damage with it. I dealt 14 for lethal just now on cockatrice.
I'm not saying even as a 4-of, but...
4 Ember Hauler
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Chandra's Pheonix
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Incinerate
3 Staggershock
4 Shrine of Burning Rage
3 Koth of the Hammer
2 Dismember
Way I see it, it's like kudoltha pheonix except faster and sweeter. It turns a late-game bolt into a one land lava axe for lethal.
Thoughts?
I readily agree to your thoughts on hauler, but the consistent version is simply too slow. The thing to speed it up, IMO, is Scamp. The t1 scamp t2 guide is murderous. We can't afford to see a hand with a hauler, burn, and land. It's not creature-heavy enough. Once hauler's done, and our hand doesn't add to 20, we're in bad shape.
Scamp provides a faster, streamlined alternative.
@Tokwana, your analysis is usually good. I've heard your posts on WWQuest, etc. I think you need to test hauler a bit more.
First of all... there is no UW problem. There is no caw problem. There is no jace problem. There is no stoneforge problem.
Second: Who the hell cares how your list does vs. tarmogoyf? We play standard here.
Third: Furnace Scamp belongs in sullired. Not MRS.
Fourth: Playing a leyline to counter lifegain... it'd be easier just to into the core the wurmcoil, etc.
Fifth: Koth is awesome. Quote "Koth is one of the few non-caw awesome cards in standard" ~Josh Silvestri. Koth is just so powerful... still perhaps I'd only use 2-3 and add some aggro, maybe cut some land.
Sixth: For B/r vamps, I have always loved arc trail and also tuk tuk the explorer, if you really have trouble. As sushi said, in the hands of a skilled pilot who knows what to do and what to kill, you should be fine.
Seventh: For the bit about vandal being a risk... well you answered it yourself :). We're playing RDW here.
On the whole, the deck is still sometimes too slow for me. Four spikeshots is too much. The card is not that powerful, and painfully slow. Hence the two Kiln Fiends.
Perhaps four Koth is excessive as well; cutting 1-2 Koths and a few lands to streamline the approach deserves to be tested at least.
My thoughts:
Yes, you're going to get flack for playing the flame slashes. They were decent for caw, and now they're preetty bad. Especially with four dismembers in the main.
On that same train, four dismembers is two too many. the life loss seems excessive to me.
As for Kiln Fiend, I have no real objection. I just play two rather than four.
Ember Hauler is really good once you try it. Relying on Kiln Fiend is not a good way to win.
Burst is also a sweet shrine-juice, and can be kicked for the win.
3 Koth is really fine, when considering the land count and curve.
SIDEBOARD:
Act is better than mark. You can steal the win from PesterTwin, and otherwise it's really just as good.
2 Tuktuk seems good vs. vamps
I would add arc trail, sweet vs. mirror and aggro.
Vandal seems better than shatter, the 2/2 bear is actually a big part of RDW.
My sideboard:
3 Vulshok Refugee
4 Act of Aggression */meta is twin heavy */
2 TukTuk
2 Dismember
2 Manic Vandal
2 Combust
And the main:
4 Ember Hauler
2 Kiln Fiend
2 Spikeshot Elder
4 Searing Blaze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burst Lightning
3 Staggershock
4 Shrine of Burning Rage
4 Koth of the Hammer
4 Teetering Peaks
19 Mountain
2 Dismember
Fiend is decent, but not consistent or reliable. I would go 2 or 0 Fiend and 0 geopede.
Thoughts?
3 Arc Trail
3 Manic Vandal
3 Combust
2 Goblin Ruinblaster
Thoughts of taking it down to 2.
Suggestions?
She is not preselling for $50. On ebay, most auctions sell 4x for $130. So that means... about 32-35 dollars each. And I don't even think she's that good, so she'll drop. The deck she would be used in I guess is RDW, and she's a lot worse than Koth for them... I mean really: get a ping and two twincasts, IF it doesn't just die? Compared to what something like Jace or even Koth or Garruk do, this lady's got nothin. Koth gets a MUCH better +1, a MUCH better -2, and a MUCH better final smash (it's actually gonna happen sometimes). You guys are just thrilled that she's not horribly unplayable, like the old chandra's are. I hope she goes up to 50 dollars, so my Koths might get cheaper.
Awesome job.
Now that Jace and Caw are gone, I find hauler unnessecary... thoughts?
EDIT: well most times :P.
Sorry for double post, but this is not even RDW. That is some kind of bizarre control with goblin guide thrown in.
Mono Red Control or Big Red are very different from the aggro RDW.
Chandra's WAY too high on curve. Fireheart's WAY too slow. Same with Urubrask... overall deck is really clunky and bad.
Use the edit button instead of double posting next time.
I really hated hauler when I played it. Bear, shock, blah, blah. If you're careful with fiend, like me, you can deal absurd damage with it. I dealt 14 for lethal just now on cockatrice.
Also, aggro approach has better mu vs. valakut.