Magmaquake could work in some scenarios, especially at instant speed.
But, Geist in a bant deck alongside cards like Wolfir Silverheart and Sigarda, Host of Herons seems pretty headache inducing (for black and red especially). I'm pretty sure that's where he'll fit into next - with plenty of mana fixing and combo options.
okay, so this guy DOESNT have trample...so why would you sac a creature JUST to put a +1/+1 counter on him? when you could just block with that creature? The only reason you would do this if you were winning with a ton of creatures and you just needed to tap it out. But really, the sac ability isnt that relavent. this card sucks
Assuming your creature has flying to block it with.
A lot of you are looking at this completely wrong. Printing silver bullets doesn't fix anything, it just allows decks that are already good to have better sideboards against each other. If you're really that sick of Jaces or Titans or whatever, the best solution would be to print cards that bring other archetypes to the top tier. I'd rather have a more diverse meta with a lot of different powerful decks.
I agree. But, I also think that (hopefully) other cards in the set will push said archetypes into tier1. Once there, it's nice to solidify things with solid sideboard hate. I think that's the point of my post and some of these other posts.
Mana barbs would be a great tool in any upcoming Tier1 red deck. That's the way I see it. But yes, the thread title is misleading as a few hoser cards aren't going to change standard.
Standard is fine right now, Its an incredibly diverse format, And if you think otherwise you just havent tried, At this point a good rogue deck can take a majority of the field 50/50 or at least thats what most the pros are saying. The only problem with standard is the lack of people trying to make new decks.
Are you talking about FNM or what? It isn't 'incredibly' diverse. Scars added very little to the format. There are a lot of decks that ramp with Jace or control with Jace into Titans. Then there's a deck that ramps into Titans and Valakut lands. The only diversity comes from the aggro decks in my opinion, as each one is fairly unique. Unfortunately those aren't tier 1. Rogue decks usually just hate on aggro, which certainly doesn't help anything.
Anyone with half a brain at this point knows the metagame is stale and needs a bit of change.
Whenever I read his brainstorm ability, I wish wotc would print a draw-damage instant or enchantment. A creature would probably be too vulnerable, but if it were an artifact creature it might even compliment the mediocre molten psyche in a deck.
The fact that Jace says 'draw 3 cards' seems to me like the damage on a draw-damage permanent (especially enchantment), would warrant usage.
Mana barbs obviously would make a great sideboard option as others have said.
I absolutely agree with MetalElvis about the Percy. He needs a deck that is built around him to work effectively.
@ MetalElvis
I'm just going to throw some statistics out there to back up my statements about your color screw issues. You seem to get highly defensive whenever I try to scrutinize your deck.
All stats assume you have 60 cards (which I believe you said you were running now):
(On the draw)
2 swamps on turn 3 for Nighthawk/Specter:
Your deck: 65% (ouch - even turn 5 is only 75%!)
My deck: 87%
2 plains on turn 4 for a Day Of Judgment:
Your deck: 71%
My deck: 83% (Closer to 90% would be better)
Having 2 plains on turn 6 for Sun Titan:
Your deck: 80%
Having 2 swamps on turn 6 for Grave Titan:
My deck: 96% (Now that's reliability!)
Conclusion: Your deck misses its turn 3 Nighthawk so much that their inclusion is just reckless. You will be unable to DoJ more than a quarter of the time. You will be sitting on a dead Titan 1 in 5 games. In a tournament setting, these numbers are incredibly important. These percentages also reflect the number of keepable hands. This doesn't even account for the fact that I have superior card draw over you.
Laughing is good for the body and mind, so I wholly approve of that!
NOTE: UW is a deck that sees top 8 often. Again, I mentioned that it's a meta call. If you plan to top 8, you can't go in weak against a top deck. The peewie league FNM 'combo' decks you play against aren't the meta everywhere kid. COMBO??? Who runs combo outside of super casual FNM? Gah, this kind of stuff ticks me off...
As for Mind Rot, I'm really worried about Leyline of Sanctity crushing our list. As it is, our player targeting is very high. I don't want to be stuck game 3 not able to side out enough of that stuff. Specter obviously gets around that.
Also, against any green deck, I have to seriously consider siding out Specters in the scenario where they side in Obstinate Baloth. The same is true with Mind rot.
But, perhaps it is worth the risk. Leylines would only be in UW lists. It's a meta call for sure.
You get color screw because of your mana base. How statistically oriented are you (not a jab, just curious)?
You have 5 colorless lands. That's a big deal, maybe you disagree. But I urge you to run the statistics. In my tests that's disgustingly unplayable. Perhaps think about the prophetics with those and your triple black drops.
Add to this the fact that you only run 4 fetches. I can't stress to you how ridiculous this is. You are so reliant on your lands coming up in the right order. You obviously undervalue the power of a fetch. 8 fetches is the minimum for this deck without prophetics (which I don't think is the right 2 drop for this deck anyway). I would say 8 fetches + 1 for every colorless land producer past 1. So 2 tecs = 9 fetch. Yeah, your colorless land options are that limited.
This list just wouldn't fly in a bigger tourney. If that isn't your goal, then that's fine. I really would like to see some representation of B/W though before Besieged.
@Kev
The more I have tested vat, the more I dislike it as a focus. I'm strongly considering going down to a 2-of on it. Now, Hexmage is a decent inclusion. I have a couple issues with it though. First, as a 2-drop it's really weak. It doesn't do a lot against aggro, and no evasion makes it even less appealing. Then, the conditional plainswalker snipe is an obvious counterspell target. So you have to play it turn 5+ to make it relevant against leaks. I'd rather take a more versatile, less specific chumper.
You need 26 lands for this deck to hit its 6 drop reliably. 24 definitely isn't enough. However, if you're stuck on 2 lands, that's something else.
Sign in blood helps me keep 2 land hands. Maybe this sounds bad. Having a reliable card drawing spell like this seems to help consistency for me though. In B/W, I think cards that help you keep hands is severely important in your ability to keep up.
Shuffling can be the case as well. But as long as you shuffle a lot, and vary up your shuffling techniques, it's probably just bad luck.
Heavy white is too passive for this format. Once you let some things resolve (PET, Jace, Frost Titan), you can be well on your way to a loss. Counters are an excellent solution to not letting something resolve.. and it's something W/B doesn't have access to.
The only way to contend with a deck that doesn't use counters is to use duress effects to grab their answers. Not having a hard to answer, card drawing engine like Jace is another problem though.
So why IoK? The way I see it, if you can suck up all the counters and/or removal from a control deck, you will have free reign over the board. Since IoK also works excellent against Aggro and Ramp, I feel it is the safest tool to use. The other advantage is: you know their hand. A late duress/iok will let you know what the right play is, if you are walking into a trap.
The plan: This deck needs to have as little fat on it as possible. Every drop needs to be as big of a threat to your matchups as possible. It can't spend time setting up or digging (because it just can't do these things well). Control is going to have to think about countering IoK, Specter, Memoricide every time they are played. These things constrict their options. The idea is to hit turns 5 and 6 having disrupted all of their answers.
I also just want to say that my mana base is very consistent.
Ratchet bomb and Percy seem like way too much of a liability in your list. Ratchet hits too many drops of your own (imagine trying to kill a geopede at the expense of your wall and your own journey, seems inefficient no?). On the other hand, I think percy is too weak to use against control and Mark of Mutiny (aggro/valakut shenanigans). I personally like ratchet bomb as a 2-of, but I made sure to minimize hitting my own permanents. I think B/W lists are too sparse on CA to be recklessly sweeping their own board.
Why Liliana over Gideon? Why BSA over gideon? Your DoJ is going to hit your own creatures too often. Don't always count on Sun Titan and Mimic Vat recurring stuff. Liliana's -8 is cute with this deck, but her other abilities just seem completely underwhelming.
Do you just like losing life with your irrelevant fetchlands? Or am I missing something there? Replace them with relevant fetchlands?
The prophetic prism tech is mildly interesting. I might test it out, but I'm not sure I like non-ramping mana artifacts. I do like that it allows for 4 tectonic edges more comfortably, however.
I think it's always in good taste to explain your card choices, rather than ignoring an entire post worth of analysis and just slapping yours down.
You said aggro and 'combo'? Is that pyro decks then? I assumed too much maybe.
I would never fetch a swamp if I didn't have to in my deck. That's my main point. It's too inconsistent. I still think Memoricide is the better card overall. The fact that it hits hands makes it more threatening in the control matchup(especially with turn 1 duress/iok) and more versatile in the Vengevine matchups. If you don't play against control at all, then that's irrelevant for you of course.
I guess I came across too strong and I appologize for that.
BSA is a solid 5 drop, I don't think anyone is arguing that. For me, after the sideboard, I hate agonizing over plopping her down because of cards like Mark of Mutiny and Act of Treason. If I had both in my hand, Gideon is going down first every time. This is pretty much always true regardless of the matchup.
Based on your list, you have a total of 7 white cards which all contain double white. Comparably, my list is quite a bit more even on the breakdown between b/w, with 17 spells white and 13 black. Thus, I run a more even spread of mana between my colors. This still results in some color screw, but its not all that bad.
Your comparison between Memoricide and Sacrament is pretty ridiculous though, especially considering your build appears as though it would rather see BBB that early. Based on the matchup I specified Sacrament for, I'm sure both options (sacrament or memoricide) can work. I merely prefer Sacrament. It specifically hits Valakut in that matchup. Every test I've done where I have resolved Sacrament and hit trip Valakut, I have won. I'm sure Memoricide naming Titan puts quite the crimp in their gameplan, but they can still run their strategy if they happen to draw it. If I resolve Sacrament, they absolutely have to depend on a beatdown strategy. Looking at my list, I have everything I need to handle that. 5 wrath effects in the main plus 12 point and click removal spells.
As far as the Specter vs. Nighthawk argument, IMO Nighthawk is the champ. It trades with just about anything and gains life, which is pretty relevant against decks like red, r/w, r/b and sometimes even Valakut.
Sun Titan is basically a house in my build, recurring things like Wall, Nighthawk, Mimic Vat, lands. I'm not sure how creating card advantage is bad...
That said, my meta is basically aggro and combo, with myself and maybe one or two other control decks showing up. This is why I have built my deck in the manner I have. If I had to guess, I would say your meta is much more control than anything else. If that were the case, I'd probably run a red deck of some sort.
Sacrament IS bad for B/W though man(It's a great card in MBC though). You winning with it doesn't convince me one bit. To hit triple black, you have to most likely pop a fetch or two for a swamp after drawing into swamps. This will result in not hitting your white drops - very consistently. Not hitting your drops = DEAD cards. This is a losing strategy. Drop white if you like Sacrament, you'll gain access to some nice cards in black too. The fact is, ramp only typically runs 7 bombs these days, 4 of which being PET. PET is the only way for them to tutor Valakut... how is memoricide not a GREAT solution here?
Why do you run so many DEAD cards versus ramp and control? Is your meta only aggro? Both Nighthawk and WoO won't put ANY pressure on control or ramp at all. They will be relieved to see those on your side. 17 removal slots is ridiculously high, you will be holding a fistfull of removal while they're resolving Jace or PET (this is bad). Your game 1 versus both these decks is beyond weak. In fact, it is an autoloss.
Nighthawk vs. Liliana's Specter
The reason why Specter is better than Nighthawk in B/W is tricky. Nighthawk is a very solid creature. I gave him more than a shot, trust me. But, the fact is, he's only useful against aggro. Imagine these scenarios:
Against control, Nighthawk first seemed like an awesome inclusion to me because, while deathtouch wasn't really relevant, he could outrace Tar Pits and/or kill jace. If you're on the draw, and you turn 3 Nighthawk, even with no removal, a Jace bounce is going to give you headaches. In fact, your whole list dies to Jace bounces. You dont have enough threats in between counters and removal to ever stick a creature that can do damage.
Against ramp, Nighthawk is a fairly weak play as well. Are you going to drop him on turn 3 while they ramp? Do you really think they will care about 2-4 damage? Once again, Specter will give them less options immediately.
Against aggro, Nighthawk is a house. Or is he? Boros will gladly lay a Journey on him. RDW will gladly bolt him if they can swing for more. I like the fact that Specter will immediately effect their hand.
On a vat, specter gives you instant speed hand disruption.... the choice is clear. But, I'm not decided against Nighthawk for the sideboard yet. Most likely no, however.
Props to raistlin for starting the thread, but I've seen dozens of B/W control threads over the course of the last month or so - most (if not all) of them very unrefined. Most of them center around Mimic vat shenanigans.
I have a good amount of confidence in my list atm and have tested it thoroughly. I think the ideal list isn't too far from the one I have above... but Conley might have some tricks up his sleeve.
But, Geist in a bant deck alongside cards like Wolfir Silverheart and Sigarda, Host of Herons seems pretty headache inducing (for black and red especially). I'm pretty sure that's where he'll fit into next - with plenty of mana fixing and combo options.
Assuming your creature has flying to block it with.
I agree. But, I also think that (hopefully) other cards in the set will push said archetypes into tier1. Once there, it's nice to solidify things with solid sideboard hate. I think that's the point of my post and some of these other posts.
Mana barbs would be a great tool in any upcoming Tier1 red deck. That's the way I see it. But yes, the thread title is misleading as a few hoser cards aren't going to change standard.
Are you talking about FNM or what? It isn't 'incredibly' diverse. Scars added very little to the format. There are a lot of decks that ramp with Jace or control with Jace into Titans. Then there's a deck that ramps into Titans and Valakut lands. The only diversity comes from the aggro decks in my opinion, as each one is fairly unique. Unfortunately those aren't tier 1. Rogue decks usually just hate on aggro, which certainly doesn't help anything.
Anyone with half a brain at this point knows the metagame is stale and needs a bit of change.
Whenever I read his brainstorm ability, I wish wotc would print a draw-damage instant or enchantment. A creature would probably be too vulnerable, but if it were an artifact creature it might even compliment the mediocre molten psyche in a deck.
The fact that Jace says 'draw 3 cards' seems to me like the damage on a draw-damage permanent (especially enchantment), would warrant usage.
Mana barbs obviously would make a great sideboard option as others have said.
@ MetalElvis
I'm just going to throw some statistics out there to back up my statements about your color screw issues. You seem to get highly defensive whenever I try to scrutinize your deck.
All stats assume you have 60 cards (which I believe you said you were running now):
(On the draw)
2 swamps on turn 3 for Nighthawk/Specter:
Your deck: 65% (ouch - even turn 5 is only 75%!)
My deck: 87%
2 plains on turn 4 for a Day Of Judgment:
Your deck: 71%
My deck: 83% (Closer to 90% would be better)
Having 2 plains on turn 6 for Sun Titan:
Your deck: 80%
Having 2 swamps on turn 6 for Grave Titan:
My deck: 96% (Now that's reliability!)
Conclusion: Your deck misses its turn 3 Nighthawk so much that their inclusion is just reckless. You will be unable to DoJ more than a quarter of the time. You will be sitting on a dead Titan 1 in 5 games. In a tournament setting, these numbers are incredibly important. These percentages also reflect the number of keepable hands. This doesn't even account for the fact that I have superior card draw over you.
Laughing is good for the body and mind, so I wholly approve of that!
NOTE: UW is a deck that sees top 8 often. Again, I mentioned that it's a meta call. If you plan to top 8, you can't go in weak against a top deck. The peewie league FNM 'combo' decks you play against aren't the meta everywhere kid. COMBO??? Who runs combo outside of super casual FNM? Gah, this kind of stuff ticks me off...
Also, against any green deck, I have to seriously consider siding out Specters in the scenario where they side in Obstinate Baloth. The same is true with Mind rot.
But, perhaps it is worth the risk. Leylines would only be in UW lists. It's a meta call for sure.
You get color screw because of your mana base. How statistically oriented are you (not a jab, just curious)?
You have 5 colorless lands. That's a big deal, maybe you disagree. But I urge you to run the statistics. In my tests that's disgustingly unplayable. Perhaps think about the prophetics with those and your triple black drops.
Add to this the fact that you only run 4 fetches. I can't stress to you how ridiculous this is. You are so reliant on your lands coming up in the right order. You obviously undervalue the power of a fetch. 8 fetches is the minimum for this deck without prophetics (which I don't think is the right 2 drop for this deck anyway). I would say 8 fetches + 1 for every colorless land producer past 1. So 2 tecs = 9 fetch. Yeah, your colorless land options are that limited.
This list just wouldn't fly in a bigger tourney. If that isn't your goal, then that's fine. I really would like to see some representation of B/W though before Besieged.
@Kev
The more I have tested vat, the more I dislike it as a focus. I'm strongly considering going down to a 2-of on it. Now, Hexmage is a decent inclusion. I have a couple issues with it though. First, as a 2-drop it's really weak. It doesn't do a lot against aggro, and no evasion makes it even less appealing. Then, the conditional plainswalker snipe is an obvious counterspell target. So you have to play it turn 5+ to make it relevant against leaks. I'd rather take a more versatile, less specific chumper.
Sign in blood helps me keep 2 land hands. Maybe this sounds bad. Having a reliable card drawing spell like this seems to help consistency for me though. In B/W, I think cards that help you keep hands is severely important in your ability to keep up.
Shuffling can be the case as well. But as long as you shuffle a lot, and vary up your shuffling techniques, it's probably just bad luck.
Heavy white is too passive for this format. Once you let some things resolve (PET, Jace, Frost Titan), you can be well on your way to a loss. Counters are an excellent solution to not letting something resolve.. and it's something W/B doesn't have access to.
The only way to contend with a deck that doesn't use counters is to use duress effects to grab their answers. Not having a hard to answer, card drawing engine like Jace is another problem though.
So why IoK? The way I see it, if you can suck up all the counters and/or removal from a control deck, you will have free reign over the board. Since IoK also works excellent against Aggro and Ramp, I feel it is the safest tool to use. The other advantage is: you know their hand. A late duress/iok will let you know what the right play is, if you are walking into a trap.
The plan: This deck needs to have as little fat on it as possible. Every drop needs to be as big of a threat to your matchups as possible. It can't spend time setting up or digging (because it just can't do these things well). Control is going to have to think about countering IoK, Specter, Memoricide every time they are played. These things constrict their options. The idea is to hit turns 5 and 6 having disrupted all of their answers.
I also just want to say that my mana base is very consistent.
Ratchet bomb and Percy seem like way too much of a liability in your list. Ratchet hits too many drops of your own (imagine trying to kill a geopede at the expense of your wall and your own journey, seems inefficient no?). On the other hand, I think percy is too weak to use against control and Mark of Mutiny (aggro/valakut shenanigans). I personally like ratchet bomb as a 2-of, but I made sure to minimize hitting my own permanents. I think B/W lists are too sparse on CA to be recklessly sweeping their own board.
Why Liliana over Gideon? Why BSA over gideon? Your DoJ is going to hit your own creatures too often. Don't always count on Sun Titan and Mimic Vat recurring stuff. Liliana's -8 is cute with this deck, but her other abilities just seem completely underwhelming.
Do you just like losing life with your irrelevant fetchlands? Or am I missing something there? Replace them with relevant fetchlands?
The prophetic prism tech is mildly interesting. I might test it out, but I'm not sure I like non-ramping mana artifacts. I do like that it allows for 4 tectonic edges more comfortably, however.
I think it's always in good taste to explain your card choices, rather than ignoring an entire post worth of analysis and just slapping yours down.
You said aggro and 'combo'? Is that pyro decks then? I assumed too much maybe.
I would never fetch a swamp if I didn't have to in my deck. That's my main point. It's too inconsistent. I still think Memoricide is the better card overall. The fact that it hits hands makes it more threatening in the control matchup(especially with turn 1 duress/iok) and more versatile in the Vengevine matchups. If you don't play against control at all, then that's irrelevant for you of course.
I guess I came across too strong and I appologize for that.
BSA is a solid 5 drop, I don't think anyone is arguing that. For me, after the sideboard, I hate agonizing over plopping her down because of cards like Mark of Mutiny and Act of Treason. If I had both in my hand, Gideon is going down first every time. This is pretty much always true regardless of the matchup.
Sacrament IS bad for B/W though man(It's a great card in MBC though). You winning with it doesn't convince me one bit. To hit triple black, you have to most likely pop a fetch or two for a swamp after drawing into swamps. This will result in not hitting your white drops - very consistently. Not hitting your drops = DEAD cards. This is a losing strategy. Drop white if you like Sacrament, you'll gain access to some nice cards in black too. The fact is, ramp only typically runs 7 bombs these days, 4 of which being PET. PET is the only way for them to tutor Valakut... how is memoricide not a GREAT solution here?
4 Wall of Omens
4 Vampire Nighthawk
17 sources of removal!
Why do you run so many DEAD cards versus ramp and control? Is your meta only aggro? Both Nighthawk and WoO won't put ANY pressure on control or ramp at all. They will be relieved to see those on your side. 17 removal slots is ridiculously high, you will be holding a fistfull of removal while they're resolving Jace or PET (this is bad). Your game 1 versus both these decks is beyond weak. In fact, it is an autoloss.
Nighthawk vs. Liliana's Specter
The reason why Specter is better than Nighthawk in B/W is tricky. Nighthawk is a very solid creature. I gave him more than a shot, trust me. But, the fact is, he's only useful against aggro. Imagine these scenarios:
Against control, Nighthawk first seemed like an awesome inclusion to me because, while deathtouch wasn't really relevant, he could outrace Tar Pits and/or kill jace. If you're on the draw, and you turn 3 Nighthawk, even with no removal, a Jace bounce is going to give you headaches. In fact, your whole list dies to Jace bounces. You dont have enough threats in between counters and removal to ever stick a creature that can do damage.
Against ramp, Nighthawk is a fairly weak play as well. Are you going to drop him on turn 3 while they ramp? Do you really think they will care about 2-4 damage? Once again, Specter will give them less options immediately.
Against aggro, Nighthawk is a house. Or is he? Boros will gladly lay a Journey on him. RDW will gladly bolt him if they can swing for more. I like the fact that Specter will immediately effect their hand.
On a vat, specter gives you instant speed hand disruption.... the choice is clear. But, I'm not decided against Nighthawk for the sideboard yet. Most likely no, however.
Props to raistlin for starting the thread, but I've seen dozens of B/W control threads over the course of the last month or so - most (if not all) of them very unrefined. Most of them center around Mimic vat shenanigans.
I have a good amount of confidence in my list atm and have tested it thoroughly. I think the ideal list isn't too far from the one I have above... but Conley might have some tricks up his sleeve.