Well, all I can think is that draw-go is not a viable strategy, even when coupled with B2Basics. If were saying that we can't be Faeries, nor a decent Counter/Top, then were stuck being draw-go, which we secretly know isn't a viable option in a truly Tier 1 meta. I think the problem was always speed, the fact that Merfolk exist, and hyper aggressive aggro decks. The cards available to construct a MUC just aren't powerful enough I guess. I want FoFictions, and traditional countermagic plus Vedalken Shackles to be compettitve, but maybe it's just not, and B2Basics isn't strong enough to warrant building a deck using it. I'm sorry guys.
Kinda sad but true. Most of what we need to be on the board can't come out til turn 3, and with the meta the way it is right now that's a problem, especially when your opponent just Krosan Grips the next turn.
What about running phyrexian revoker either in the side or main deck.
its 2/1 pithing needle for 2.
It provides a clock while also hosing some cards.
Honestly, this is being discussed in like every thread has needle in sb. From what I've seen, everyone agrees needle is better because its faster and harder to remove.
I agree with the peasant. If you're going to go down the road of something like aggro or countertop than you might as well commit and go all the way.
I've tried testing countertop in the deck on MWS and it was horrible. I also tried Vclique with kira and sower, which had a little more favorable results, but in the end I couldn't stand up to most T1 decks.
Traditional MUC can still be somewhat competitive, but everytime I play its an uphill battle that leaves me frustrated, and after following this thread for a while, it seems like no one is really sure what to do to fix it.
dlites post shows that MU's finishers really aren't all that strong anymore. Morphling I would say is still the best, even if it is a little mana intensive. Meloku and Sphinx of Jwar Isle are #2 and anything without shroud is rather useless to us.
This deck has good combo matchups because of cards like daze, pierce and cursecatcher. FOWs are our hard counters sure but a combo player cant simply play around our soft counters. We provide a very fast clock and rush the combo player. Especially decks using ad naus. Plus we can even combine these soft counters. Double daze, curse + daze, pierce plus daze etc. If it stops the money spell it stops the money spell.
Saying combo can simply "play around" our soft counters is just flat out wrong.
This is the problem i've had versus combo.... I don't understand which is the money spell. I would guess ad nauseum
Has arcane laboratory been considered at all for sideboard against combo? Once you drop something like that, you basically win. The only answer they have is to bounce it.
Figured this would the better place to ask about this. I was playing on MWS a few days ago. My opponent was playing humility with mishra's factory, and say that the factories were still 2/2 when they turned into creatures. is this true?
The two big discard cards right now seem to be Hymm to Tourach (sp?) and thoughsieze. I haven't had much problem with him, I usually have a spell snare in hand. As for thoughtsieze well.... sometimes they just get through :/
I think Morphling by far is the best finisher for this deck. Protects himself, and he can be both offence and defense is still pretty insane. Sure, he did get a little weaker with the rule change, but he still a pretty insane creature that fits our role.
I agree, I think he is the most efficient, but he can't be the only one. I think the sphinx and morphling should be run together. Rather than 2-4 morphling, split it at 2/2 or 1/1 (however many wincon you prefer)
I would like to share my next control deck, I'm starting to test.
I is a metagame deck, ment to face goblins, merfolk, zoo and bant and has a chance vs control decks, but defenetly in not good vs high tide or show&sneek. It is white splashed but I hope you can excuse me.
4 brainstorm
1 sensei's divining top
3 relic of progenitus
3 fact or fiction
4 force of will
4 counterspell
1 forbid
4 swords to plowshares
2 path to exile
4 engineered explosives
3 vedalken shakles
2 morphling
2 jace, the mind sculptor
side:
2 back to basics
1 rainbow efreet
2 perish
2 ethernal canonist
4 meddling mage
4 perimeter captain
It's awesome looking at opponent's aggro player face when you reveal 5 cards with FoF.
just need to pay attention to counterbalance and natural order... but decks running those cards has no other cards that warry me.
what you think ?
This is more along the lines of what I was thinking after playtesting straight MU. What is the reasoning behind relic mainbord?
I've been thinking about going towards show and tell with emrakeul, but I'm not sure how well that would even work. The reason being that Diabolic Edict is such a relevant card right now. Furthermore Edict also tears up Morphling.
Basically to play this deck competitively it needs to be able to keep up with tier1 decks. Whats the point of playing if you know you really cannot beat one certain deck (and a heavily played one at that). First off, we need more than 1 creature because of cards like edict. Secondly, I personally think Morphling is totally out of the running as our win con. CB decks just keep a Force of Will in their hand/ in the top 3 cards as soon as they see Morphling.
Also at the talk about Sower of Temptation. Its a great card, and a really good utility, but everytime I get it on the board its immediately removed whether it be StP, lightning bolt, or even just a Grim Lavamancer.
Kira however keeps us in the running. I ordered 3x Kira, 3x VClique, and 2x Sower a few weeks ago to use in this deck but I think I got scammed..... which really sucks. I also really wish I had Jace.
Hey I was running Back to Basics, I didn't add it to the list on accident. I believe the list I went 3-2 with was 63 cards. But again, my mistake I meant to add it since its an obvious must have for this deck.
I've pretty much given up on Chalice of the Void. Personally, I'm going to continue to use Arcane Laboratory against combo decks. Aside from being 3cc, this card is just amazing. Their only hope in winning after you land this is bouncing it with echoing truths. All you have to do is save a Spell Snare and I don't see how you could lose.
I played this deck again today, cut a few things, and did really, really bad. I drew against T.E.S, lost 2-1 to 4c countertop, lost 2-0 to NO Bant (dunno if counterbalance was in it or not), Beat mono green aggro 2-0 (hardly worth mentioning.) and lost 2-1 to burn although by that time I playing sloppy due to frustration.
Honestly, it doesn't seem like MUC is something worth playing competitively anymore. It really just can't keep up and doesn't have enough options. Counter decks are more or less irrelevant now that you can just stick counterbalance + top in a deck and along with FoW, that's all you really need for counters. Add a whole lotta dual and fetchlands and you can play a more effective counter deck with 3 other colors for endless options.
I'd like to continue to build off the overall theme of the deck, which for me was Back to Basics, and start splashing some other colors.
I'd rather play Vendilion Clique / other flash threats to beat the combo decks, assuming we're talking about non-belcher decks.
VClique is great and something that I've already adopted into my deck (whenever it comes in the mail) and most muc players probably will too. However, hes obviously not a permanent solution to stopping combo decks, and furthermore I'm focusing on fitting CoTV into the sideboard on the assumption that its worth using.
So the question is still up regarding if chalice is really worth it in the sideboard. It will def help against burn, but how often do you really see burn anymore? Furthermore, is setting it to 0 something that will truly be devastating against combo? Specifically T.E.S
Against Zoo you must must must eliminate pridemage + somehow keep grip away. 1cc is their focal point. If 1 guy gets through at the beginning, they also have the might to race you. 3/3 nacatl from turn 2 onward is problematic.
Against TES, 0cc stops storm copies. It also stops petal and LED, which is phenomenal. This is the correct play.
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Has anyone considered Psionic Blast? It has a wide range of uses, can shoot down x/4's which is very relevant, and can even help against TES. Just wondering if this has been discussed. The -2 life is worth the effects if you build around it.
Also, for Spellstutter Sprite (fae focus) to work, how many total faeries do you need? I'm looking for a ballpark number -- like when people ask how to effectively slip in FoW how many blue spells you need. Any idea on Fae to aid spellstutter? Clique + Sower is already 5+, 4x Sprite makes 9+. Do we need more on top of this?
Now we're talking.
So first off with chalice vs zoo, right off the bat im concerned about the loss of Spell Snare just because its so extremely effective at stopping the pridemage. If we set chalice at 1, than a counter must always be saved for when pridemage comes. Also, Krosan Grip is damn near impossible to stop, but I'm thinking VClique might as well be added to the deck for things of this nature.
I also didn't realize a chalice at 0 stopped storm, that's incredible.
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Now on to Psionic Blast . This is a card I've been debating about for a while now. However, I don't have room to SB it, so maybe just running it as a 2 of tops would be helpful (-2 isn't all that much damage as we don't use fetchlands). Still, I've been hesitant about trading for them and thus haven't been able to test with it.
Lastly about Spellstutter Sprite , I really don't see this card being to relevant in the deck. I wanted to use it but without Bitterblossom its just not all that effective. Keep in mind VClique is legendary, and sower sits at 4cc (not to mention you're probably only running 2 of them). More than not when I tried testing it it turned out to just be a dead card.
Kinda sad but true. Most of what we need to be on the board can't come out til turn 3, and with the meta the way it is right now that's a problem, especially when your opponent just Krosan Grips the next turn.
Honestly, this is being discussed in like every thread has needle in sb. From what I've seen, everyone agrees needle is better because its faster and harder to remove.
I've tried testing countertop in the deck on MWS and it was horrible. I also tried Vclique with kira and sower, which had a little more favorable results, but in the end I couldn't stand up to most T1 decks.
Traditional MUC can still be somewhat competitive, but everytime I play its an uphill battle that leaves me frustrated, and after following this thread for a while, it seems like no one is really sure what to do to fix it.
Maybe we should just play painter grind
This is the problem i've had versus combo.... I don't understand which is the money spell. I would guess ad nauseum
I agree, I think he is the most efficient, but he can't be the only one. I think the sphinx and morphling should be run together. Rather than 2-4 morphling, split it at 2/2 or 1/1 (however many wincon you prefer)
This is more along the lines of what I was thinking after playtesting straight MU. What is the reasoning behind relic mainbord?
Basically to play this deck competitively it needs to be able to keep up with tier1 decks. Whats the point of playing if you know you really cannot beat one certain deck (and a heavily played one at that). First off, we need more than 1 creature because of cards like edict. Secondly, I personally think Morphling is totally out of the running as our win con. CB decks just keep a Force of Will in their hand/ in the top 3 cards as soon as they see Morphling.
Also at the talk about Sower of Temptation. Its a great card, and a really good utility, but everytime I get it on the board its immediately removed whether it be StP, lightning bolt, or even just a Grim Lavamancer.
Kira however keeps us in the running. I ordered 3x Kira, 3x VClique, and 2x Sower a few weeks ago to use in this deck but I think I got scammed..... which really sucks. I also really wish I had Jace.
I've pretty much given up on Chalice of the Void. Personally, I'm going to continue to use Arcane Laboratory against combo decks. Aside from being 3cc, this card is just amazing. Their only hope in winning after you land this is bouncing it with echoing truths. All you have to do is save a Spell Snare and I don't see how you could lose.
I played this deck again today, cut a few things, and did really, really bad. I drew against T.E.S, lost 2-1 to 4c countertop, lost 2-0 to NO Bant (dunno if counterbalance was in it or not), Beat mono green aggro 2-0 (hardly worth mentioning.) and lost 2-1 to burn although by that time I playing sloppy due to frustration.
Honestly, it doesn't seem like MUC is something worth playing competitively anymore. It really just can't keep up and doesn't have enough options. Counter decks are more or less irrelevant now that you can just stick counterbalance + top in a deck and along with FoW, that's all you really need for counters. Add a whole lotta dual and fetchlands and you can play a more effective counter deck with 3 other colors for endless options.
I'd like to continue to build off the overall theme of the deck, which for me was Back to Basics, and start splashing some other colors.
VClique is great and something that I've already adopted into my deck (whenever it comes in the mail) and most muc players probably will too. However, hes obviously not a permanent solution to stopping combo decks, and furthermore I'm focusing on fitting CoTV into the sideboard on the assumption that its worth using.
So the question is still up regarding if chalice is really worth it in the sideboard. It will def help against burn, but how often do you really see burn anymore? Furthermore, is setting it to 0 something that will truly be devastating against combo? Specifically T.E.S
Well that's a bummer, i thought it was to good to be true
Now we're talking.
So first off with chalice vs zoo, right off the bat im concerned about the loss of Spell Snare just because its so extremely effective at stopping the pridemage. If we set chalice at 1, than a counter must always be saved for when pridemage comes. Also, Krosan Grip is damn near impossible to stop, but I'm thinking VClique might as well be added to the deck for things of this nature.
I also didn't realize a chalice at 0 stopped storm, that's incredible.
----
Now on to Psionic Blast . This is a card I've been debating about for a while now. However, I don't have room to SB it, so maybe just running it as a 2 of tops would be helpful (-2 isn't all that much damage as we don't use fetchlands). Still, I've been hesitant about trading for them and thus haven't been able to test with it.
Lastly about Spellstutter Sprite , I really don't see this card being to relevant in the deck. I wanted to use it but without Bitterblossom its just not all that effective. Keep in mind VClique is legendary, and sower sits at 4cc (not to mention you're probably only running 2 of them). More than not when I tried testing it it turned out to just be a dead card.