Post bans I've been looking at soul sisters due to it's inherently strong burn and twin matchup, and I was brainstorming a build based on return to the ranks, large numbers of creatures, and generally just trying to be more aggressive/proactive in order to still have decent control jund/junk and tron matchups. Its possible the returns and just too cute and that the deck needs path to function, also the horizon canopys are a little suspect but I feel may shore up this builds issue with gas in the mid and late game but the concept of just getting serra ascendent online asap and then bringing them back once they die quickly feels very strong to me.
I'm not the best at building control decks, but I think the idea has some potential. I'm not going to worry about the SB just yet, but there will probably be additional countermagic, hand disruption, anti-aggro cards, and Meddling Mage as opponents sb out creature removal.
True, I had not considered the use of spellskite against Mark of Mutiny. As for Beast Within against Splinter Twin, I worry about relying on a 3 mana instant against things like mana leak and spell pierce. This is why I'm using dismember instead.
As for Avenger, I agree he is great against Aggro, the biggest different of our list is not the use of Avenger but Summoning Trap / GSZ. Summoning Trap builds need a decent number of target to be viable (is 8 enough?) while GSZ builds don't.
I can understand how Summoning Trap is better verses Twin then GSZ, but I like the added consistency and find GSZ to be much better in the mirror as it acts as a 2nd battlement and you don't need a hand with multiple 6 drops in the mirror, nor against aggro.
Why do you think a Summoning Trap version is better in this meta, or do you expect very large numbers of twin in comparison to aggro / RDW?
Lastly, do you have any comments about my list in general? I like the idea of fitting spellskite somewhere in the SB, but am unsure if there is anything I can comfortably cut.
I feel like at least in my local metagame, there are going to be far less counterspells being played then before. As such I am shifting to the more consistant GSZ version. The MD Removal and singleton Obstinate Baloth are to combat the likely large amounts of aggro decks that I predict will be showing up.
I feel that Avenger is really slow right now, but I like the 1 of as it let's me GSZ for it and avoid Mark effects. While I would like to play Tumble Mangets in my SB, I feel the other cards are more useful right now.
When playing 28 Lands I haven't really felt the need to use Cultivate.
Beast Within seems depressing against aggro, too much mana to use against splinter twin. It seems fine in the mirror although awkward against open mana for Harrow.
4 Combust and 4 Spellskite is overkill, try Dismember as it can be in the MD as it kills Overgrown Battlement, various aggro creatures, and the Phyrexian Obliterator I know someone will try to use in my meta.
No it is bad. You have many less situational counters to the combo, and even a better trap (Whiplash Trap), and even those cards are mostly bad.
If most builds of the deck become grixis, the fact that whiplash trap is immune to both mental misstep and inquisition of kozilek is actually relevant. But I would much rather bring in spellskite and more countermagic (Negate) if I was playing a blue deck
The combo also folds to a timely nature's claim. With all the powerful artifacts and enchantments (Swords, Batterskull, Splinter Twin) there is little chance that it won't stay in my SB. Also if mental misstep becomes big somehow, running naturalize instead isnt the worst.
The deck also isn't very good against pyroclasm. I could see losing G1 to good draws but post-board we have a very large advantage.
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell while Pyromancer Ascension has two or more quest counters on it, you may copy that spell. You may choose new targets for the copy.
There is no "if" clause which would cause it to check if there were two counters on the Ascension during resolution. The player has casted the spell while there were two counters on the Ascension and may copy it regardless of the status of the Ascension.
Relevant rule:
603.4. A triggered ability may read "When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect]." When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn't true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the "intervening 'if' clause" rule. (The word "if" has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an "if" that immediately follows a trigger condition.)
Decree of Pain is also amazing due to it's ability to kill token rushes early the game, and provide insane card draw in the late game.
Otherwise that should be enough mass removal. I tend to not play much in my Karrthus deck as it is more threat based, but I can see the use of having ways to sweep the board.
Also in addition to the creatures mentioned, I intend on testing Sheoldred, Whispering One as edict effects can be especially powerfull against some decks.
I play 4 Battlement, 2 GSZ, 4 Explore, 3 Harrow, and 3 KHE. I find KHE to be very effective against control decks to reach 9 mana to avoid mana leak, and using it with explore + fetch or harrow still allows for the needed turn 4 titan.
I actually keep in 2 harrow against cawblade due to their tendancy to tap out at points in the game, or only leave up enough mana to spell pierce allowing me to cast harrow for 5 mana.
Its also awesome when they tap out into your untapped 4 mana post board. He's only going to have 5 mana next turn, right?
Played at National Qualifiers, went 6-1 beating 2 Mono Red Decks, 2 Cawblade Decks, a UB Poison deck, and a Naya Vengevine deck. Lost to a classic UW deck.
Mono Red:
+2-4 Pyroclaim (Some people side out goblins expecting this, which can make 4 bad. Try to get a read on the player and if incorrect, side better for G3) +3 Obstinate Baloth +2 Tumble Magnet
-2 Green's Sun Zenith -1 Avenger of Zendikar -3 Khlani Heart Expedition -1-2 Summoning Trap -0-1 Explore (I like the ability of Summoning Trap to play around Threaten effects, and have tried leaving 1-2 in)
Caw Blade:
+3 Nature's Claim +2 Tumble Magnet +1 Acidic Slime +1 Viridian Corruptor
-2 Green's Sun Zenith -1 Avenger of Zendikar -3 Khlani Heart Expedition -1 Harrow (I like the instant spead power of Harrow, Cawblade likes to tap out sometimes post board)
On the Draw
-1 Harrow +1 Khlani Heart Expedition
Boros: See mono red, but always bring in 4 pyroclasm
Vengvine Decks: See mono red, don't bring in Magnets, keep in Khalni Heart's and 4th explore, play 4 pyroclaims
RUG:
-2 Green's Sun Zenith
+2 Tumble Magnet
Thoughts on how build worked
Viridian Corrupter seems poor, originally I thought of it's use with GSZ, but I'm siding that out due to it's weakness to Spell Pierce.
Terastadon is just too much mana, I don't have enough cards to side out to bring it in against anything but non-cobra Valakut
Avenger was never used, but I need a 9th fatty to keep summoning trap consistant. Needs to pass jace test as well.
MD Harrow, Bolts, and Inferno was amazing. Harrow is fine against blue decks, especially because if they tap out you can cast 2 of them in a single turn if you have too. Also they don't expect you to leave them in, and will tap out when you have only 4 mana.
I've been noticing some people playing only 7 fatties. Having 9 was great for me as I had games in which I just cast 3 Titans in a row even if the first two were countered, and my Summoning Traps never missed.
I play 4 Inferno Titan, 3 Traps, and 4 Bolts MD to help with this matchup.
I bring in 2 Tumble Magnets, 3 Nature's Claim, 1 Acidic Slime, and 1 Viridian Corruptor.
I keep in Harrows due to the explosiveness with Expedition, and their tendancy to tap out at some point. Instant speed ramp is huge, especially if they expect you to side it out. Post board they will sometimes tap out for Jace into your 4 Mana, leading into an end of turn Harrow and a Titan.
Artifact Destruction buys me the extra turns to play around mana leak, and to draw enough titans to push one through countermagic.
Took Valakut and came third going 6-1. Beat Naya Vengvine, 2 Mono Red Decks, UB Poison, and 2 Cawblade decks. Lost to a classic UW control deck, due to a misplay of my own.
Didn't play any Cobra's, played 4 Inferno Titans, 3 Traps, and 3 Harrows MD plus most of the usual stuff.
Nice to see another deck running big green creatures! Here are some suggestions including some fatties I run in my Karrthus deck. Obviously this is more then 9 cards, but I think each of them is worth looking at.
Primeval Titan - Obvious, Expensive, still worth working towards at some point, but no rush.
Scourge of Kher Ridges - A dragon that sweeps the sky and group alike, great utility and crushes token decks.
Fracturing Gust - Seems like you aren't playing that many artifacts and enchantments. Many players like to play lots and the lifegain is no joke.
Myojin of Life's Web - A good way of emptying your hand of fatties at instant speed. Cast this when the blue player can't counter and suddenly who care's about counterspells.
Primal Command - Find creatures, deal with troublesome permenants, hate on graveyards, recycle your gy, gain life. The card does it all.
4 Ajani's Pridemate
4 Ranger of Eos
4 Soul Warden
4 Soul's Attendant
4 Serra Ascendant
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Martyr of Sands
3 Return to the Ranks
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
Lands
7 Plains
4 Mutavault
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Mistveil Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Rest in Peace
4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Celestial Purge
3 Stony Silence
1 Return to the Ranks
This deck attempts to do that with the Gifts Package of
This allows you to get Enduring Renewal + Blasting Station with any naturally drawn 0 mana creature to do infinite damage.
I wanted a combo that would not be vulnerable to creature removal that could fit into a control shell.
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Open the Vault
1 Sins of the Past
1 Blasting Station
1 Enduring Renewal
3 Ornithopter
Card Draw:
3 Peer through Depths
2 Thirst for Knowledge
Removal:
3 Path to Exile
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Wrath of God
4 Remand
4 Thoughtseize
Ramp:
2 Azorius Signet
2 Dimir Signet
2 Coalition Relic
Land:
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Godless Shrine
2 Watery Grave
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Sunken Ruins
1 Mystic Gate
1 Academy Ruins
I'm not the best at building control decks, but I think the idea has some potential. I'm not going to worry about the SB just yet, but there will probably be additional countermagic, hand disruption, anti-aggro cards, and Meddling Mage as opponents sb out creature removal.
As for Avenger, I agree he is great against Aggro, the biggest different of our list is not the use of Avenger but Summoning Trap / GSZ. Summoning Trap builds need a decent number of target to be viable (is 8 enough?) while GSZ builds don't.
I can understand how Summoning Trap is better verses Twin then GSZ, but I like the added consistency and find GSZ to be much better in the mirror as it acts as a 2nd battlement and you don't need a hand with multiple 6 drops in the mirror, nor against aggro.
Why do you think a Summoning Trap version is better in this meta, or do you expect very large numbers of twin in comparison to aggro / RDW?
Lastly, do you have any comments about my list in general? I like the idea of fitting spellskite somewhere in the SB, but am unsure if there is anything I can comfortably cut.
1 Avenger of Zendikar
4 Primeval Titan
4 Overgrown Battlement
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Obstinate Baloth
[ 3 enchantments ]
3 Khalni Heart Expedition
[ 10 instants ]
3 Dismember
3 Harrow
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Explore
[ 28 lands ]
7 Forest
11 Mountain
3 Evolving Wilds
3 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Combust
2 Obstinate Baloth
4 Pyroclasm
4 Summoning Trap
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Viridian Corrupter
I feel like at least in my local metagame, there are going to be far less counterspells being played then before. As such I am shifting to the more consistant GSZ version. The MD Removal and singleton Obstinate Baloth are to combat the likely large amounts of aggro decks that I predict will be showing up.
I feel that Avenger is really slow right now, but I like the 1 of as it let's me GSZ for it and avoid Mark effects. While I would like to play Tumble Mangets in my SB, I feel the other cards are more useful right now.
When playing 28 Lands I haven't really felt the need to use Cultivate.
Beast Within seems depressing against aggro, too much mana to use against splinter twin. It seems fine in the mirror although awkward against open mana for Harrow.
4 Combust and 4 Spellskite is overkill, try Dismember as it can be in the MD as it kills Overgrown Battlement, various aggro creatures, and the Phyrexian Obliterator I know someone will try to use in my meta.
If most builds of the deck become grixis, the fact that whiplash trap is immune to both mental misstep and inquisition of kozilek is actually relevant. But I would much rather bring in spellskite and more countermagic (Negate) if I was playing a blue deck
The deck also isn't very good against pyroclasm. I could see losing G1 to good draws but post-board we have a very large advantage.
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell while Pyromancer Ascension has two or more quest counters on it, you may copy that spell. You may choose new targets for the copy.
There is no "if" clause which would cause it to check if there were two counters on the Ascension during resolution. The player has casted the spell while there were two counters on the Ascension and may copy it regardless of the status of the Ascension.
Relevant rule:
Otherwise that should be enough mass removal. I tend to not play much in my Karrthus deck as it is more threat based, but I can see the use of having ways to sweep the board.
Also in addition to the creatures mentioned, I intend on testing Sheoldred, Whispering One as edict effects can be especially powerfull against some decks.
I actually keep in 2 harrow against cawblade due to their tendancy to tap out at points in the game, or only leave up enough mana to spell pierce allowing me to cast harrow for 5 mana.
Its also awesome when they tap out into your untapped 4 mana post board. He's only going to have 5 mana next turn, right?
4 Primeval Titan
4 Inferno Titan
1 Avenger of Zendikar
4 Overgrown Battlement
Sorceries: 6
4 Explore
2 Green's Sun Zenith
Instants: 10
3 Harrow
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Summoning Trap
3 Khlani Heart Expedition
Land: 28
1 Raging Ravine
4 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Evolving Wilds
3 Terramorphic Expanse
6 Forest
11 Mountain
4 Pyroclasm
3 Nature's Claim
2 Tumble Magnet
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Terastadon
1 Viridian Corruptor
1 Acidic Slime
Boarding
Mono Red:
+2-4 Pyroclaim (Some people side out goblins expecting this, which can make 4 bad. Try to get a read on the player and if incorrect, side better for G3) +3 Obstinate Baloth +2 Tumble Magnet
-2 Green's Sun Zenith -1 Avenger of Zendikar -3 Khlani Heart Expedition -1-2 Summoning Trap -0-1 Explore (I like the ability of Summoning Trap to play around Threaten effects, and have tried leaving 1-2 in)
Caw Blade:
+3 Nature's Claim +2 Tumble Magnet +1 Acidic Slime +1 Viridian Corruptor
-2 Green's Sun Zenith -1 Avenger of Zendikar -3 Khlani Heart Expedition -1 Harrow (I like the instant spead power of Harrow, Cawblade likes to tap out sometimes post board)
On the Draw
-1 Harrow +1 Khlani Heart Expedition
Valakut Mirror: (Non Cobra)
-4 Lightning Bolt
+2 Tumble Magnet +1 Acidic Slime +1 Terastadon
Valakut Mirror: Cobra
-3 Summoning Trap
+2 Tumble Magnet +1 Acidic Slime
Boros: See mono red, but always bring in 4 pyroclasm
Vengvine Decks: See mono red, don't bring in Magnets, keep in Khalni Heart's and 4th explore, play 4 pyroclaims
RUG:
-2 Green's Sun Zenith
+2 Tumble Magnet
Thoughts on how build worked
Viridian Corrupter seems poor, originally I thought of it's use with GSZ, but I'm siding that out due to it's weakness to Spell Pierce.
Terastadon is just too much mana, I don't have enough cards to side out to bring it in against anything but non-cobra Valakut
Avenger was never used, but I need a 9th fatty to keep summoning trap consistant. Needs to pass jace test as well.
MD Harrow, Bolts, and Inferno was amazing. Harrow is fine against blue decks, especially because if they tap out you can cast 2 of them in a single turn if you have too. Also they don't expect you to leave them in, and will tap out when you have only 4 mana.
I've been noticing some people playing only 7 fatties. Having 9 was great for me as I had games in which I just cast 3 Titans in a row even if the first two were countered, and my Summoning Traps never missed.
I bring in 2 Tumble Magnets, 3 Nature's Claim, 1 Acidic Slime, and 1 Viridian Corruptor.
I keep in Harrows due to the explosiveness with Expedition, and their tendancy to tap out at some point. Instant speed ramp is huge, especially if they expect you to side it out. Post board they will sometimes tap out for Jace into your 4 Mana, leading into an end of turn Harrow and a Titan.
Artifact Destruction buys me the extra turns to play around mana leak, and to draw enough titans to push one through countermagic.
Didn't play any Cobra's, played 4 Inferno Titans, 3 Traps, and 3 Harrows MD plus most of the usual stuff.
Primeval Titan - Obvious, Expensive, still worth working towards at some point, but no rush.
Scourge of Kher Ridges - A dragon that sweeps the sky and group alike, great utility and crushes token decks.
Mana Reflection - Only thing better then 1 Wake, is 2!
Savage Beating - Another finsiher like Overwhelming Stampede, but the instant speed plus ability to kill multiple players is worth it.
Avenger of Zendikar - An army in a single card, and amazing with Overwhelming Stampede
Spinerock Knoll - 7 Damage seems like a lot, but I still reccomend looking into the last of your 3 Hideaway lands.
Dragon Broodmother - Tokens are also good with overruns, and give you blockers when you need it.
Akroma's Memorial - Why only have 2 Akroma's? Avoids the flying problem and the Vigilance problem as well as giving Haste and 2 Relevant Protections.
Greater Good - Card is busted, turns every creature into insane card advantage and makes removal a joke.
More Non-Artifact Ramp
Fracturing Gust - Seems like you aren't playing that many artifacts and enchantments. Many players like to play lots and the lifegain is no joke.
Myojin of Life's Web - A good way of emptying your hand of fatties at instant speed. Cast this when the blue player can't counter and suddenly who care's about counterspells.
Primal Command - Find creatures, deal with troublesome permenants, hate on graveyards, recycle your gy, gain life. The card does it all.
Enjoy!