what happens if you have Geralf's Messenger out that has undied (has a +1/+1 on it) and you Black Sun's Zenith for 1? Is he unable to undie again since he has both +1/+1 and -1/-1 on him?
Is the inclusion of the word "or" in Huntmaster of the Fells' first triggered ability of any significance with Torpor Orb out? If Huntmaster is flipped and then later flips back to the front side, does the first triggered ability trigger because it's not being triggered by ETB, but is being triggered by flipping (satisfying the latter of the "or" condition)? Or, does the fact that ETB is even in the wording shut down the entire triggered ability?
I wanted this to be a real board control deck that doesn't rely on cheap counterspells and relies on optimizing what Venser was meant to do. A typical board state of this deck has creatures, artifacts, enchantments, planeswalkers that all have independent interactions and synergy ... and with such a variety of permanents, it is hard to wipe my board. It doesn't try to control by countering things, it tries to take control by allowing opponents to play all the threats they want, and then eating away at their permanents.
Sundial of the Infinite: This is very useful to help keep the tempo in your favor. You can force your opponent to do things on their turn instead of yours. This card is also great with Glimmerpoint Stag, you can exile something and when the return to battlefield trigger goes on the stack during the end phase, you activate Sundial. In effect, you permanently exile a permanent and the return to battlefield won't happen. Secondly, Sundial has a good interaction with Oblivion Ring (and Fiend Hunter) because you can blink the O-Ring with Venser, and activate Sundial when the leave the battlefield trigger goes on the stack, and what you exiled with O-Ring will stay exiled, and at the end of the next turn, the O-Ring comes back to exile something new!
Essentially, Sundial + Stag lets you keep exiling any permanents for 5 mana. Also, with Sundial + O-Ring, you can blink an O-Ring onto a new (nonland) permanent every turn that will stay permanently exiled.
Spellskite: This card is very necessary here. They are going to go after your Venser, Sundial, and Stonehorn with removal, so best to have some bullet-takers on the board. This is good defense for the early aggro of red decks (Stromkirk) and the recent surge in Human decks (Mirran Crusader, Doomed Traveler, etc).
Stonehorn Dignitary: Tee-hee Obvious sideboard out vs creature-less control decks. Can be game-winning vs so many decks in the current meta as long as you can protect him (Spellskite) when you start blinking him with Venser.
Glimmerpoint Stag: Can do cool things like blink a Stonehorn or Blade Splicer. Can also be used to lock up a permanent with Venser blinking the Stag every turn.
Things to tweak:
The Land Base - Need to figure out the composition of nonbasic lands I want ... might go to 4 Ghost Quarter 1 Moorland Haunt 1 Buried Ruin instead of 3-2-1
Titans - Sun Titan seems like a good beater that can recur my O-Rings, Ratchet Bombs (SB), Blade Splicers, and Spellskites. Not sure if I want to maybe try and add a Phantasmal Image or 2, or maybe 1 Frost Titan.
Planeswalkers - Considering doing 3 Venser and 1 Gideon instead of 4 Venser ... sometimes I just see him too much. Also like Karn, you can exile and keep resetting him with a Venser blink.
Snapcaster Mage - Trying to think ways he can be worked in here and abused with Venser, and what Sorceries/Instants would be useful.
Sideboard - Still need to work on this quite a bit, haven't played enough of this deck to see which decks are its problem decks.
A player can only decline a shortcut by shortening it to a point where they want to make a different choice than what's in the proposed shortcut:
716.2b Each other player, in turn order starting after the player who suggested the shortcut, may either accept the proposed sequence, or shorten it by naming a place where he or she will make a game choice that's different than what's been proposed. (The player doesn't need to specify at this time what the new choice will be.) This place becomes the new ending point of the proposed sequence.
In the situation at hand, the player isn't planning to make a different choice; instead, he just wants to play out the proposed actions for the sole purpose of burning up time. That is stalling.
So if one decides to shorten the shortcut by saying "ok 1000 turns later (instead of a trillion), I will make a game choice that is different than what has been proposed" and you go ahead and take the shortcut and 1000 turns later, you instead cast the Blue Sun's Zenith (for 0 still) during a different phase than the one specified by the player who suggested the shortcut ... would that constitute "making a different choice" and thus satisfy the shortened shortcut's completion?
Tom Martell has it right, I think. No need to stretch the mana base to Esper colors ... stick to good ol UW, seems a lot more consistent. I also agree with him about why Snapcaster is bad in this kind of UW control list.
Question 1
If Karn Liberated's ultimate is activated, and Disperse is cast targeting Karn and resolves. Karn is returned to hand, but then does his ultimate resolve? It refers to cards exiled by Karn Liberated (an object that no longer exists). At that point, I would think the cards exiled by Karn (the no-longer-existing object) and cards exiled by other means, are just all one big exile stack that are indistinguishable.
Question 2 Olivia Voldaren is out and she gets targeted with Go for the Throat. In response, her second ability is activated and she targets herself. That would mean you have control over your own Olivia for as long as you control Olivia. Once GftT resolves, you no longer control Olivia so would control be given back to you even though it's in the graveyard?
No sideboard currently... Been testing against U/W humans, Wrr and U/W control. Good matchups against all of them. Not amazing but bearable. I need to test against some hyper aggro decks like rdw and tempered steel. Any suggestions or questions are welcomed. Oh and how do you format decklists into two rows?
How do you win games? Karn is marginal. You need Nephalia Drownyard maybe for mill as an alternate wincon. You might want to consider some fatties (Grave Titan, Consecrated Sphinx) in your Ponder slot.
Right, but you're only talking about Wolfrun. Against every other aggro deck it is too slow and I still think Dissipation Field is better overall. With Wolfrun, there are easier tools to break this deck. Wolfrun's Inkmoth isn't the only wincon and there are other things you need to worry about other than the Inkmoth. If it takes you 5 mana enchantment to kill an Inkmoth, you got other things to worry about. The Curse is really only effective against the Inkmoth which is really a very narrow angle of the deck.
so why is Curse of Death's Hold any better than Dissipation Field? you drop it a turn earlier turn 4, if you have lethal damage on turn 5 (after you cast the Field), then you're dead anyway even if you had the Curse to drop on your turn 5.
the way I see it ... if you haven't controlled the board enough by turn 5, you're probably dead anyway. but if you have managed to control the board a bit and survive aggro until T5, why not have them bounce everything back and have to recast and go through summoning sickness. it buys you time to try to re-answer their threats.
I see how in specific situations you might want the Curse over the Field (Wolf Ramp) but overall I like the Field especially against aggro. against Wolf Ramp there are easier tools than the Curse.
Thrun, the Last Troll is on my opponents board. I attack with Grave Titan and tokens and he blocks a Zombie with Thrun. I then Black Sun's Zenith for 2. What happens? Does it matter if he regens before or after BSZ resolves?
Here is a list I've been grinding with. So I ditched Karn for Sorin's Vengeance. It just seems so much better vs our bad matchups. Some lists have been dropping to 3 Snappy but I want to keep mine at 4, snapping back a Vengeance can be lethal.
I have been having trouble with aggro a lot and tokens has gotten popular along with tempered steel. UB decks have been resorting to Curse of Death's Hold but I think Dissipation Field is a much better option vs tokens and heavy early aggro so I've bumped the curse out of the SB and running the Dissipation Field instead.
A few awesome 1-ofs that I'm piloting are: Disperse, Negate, and Frightful Delusion. Frightftul can be a good surprise out of nowehere when they tap out for something and you 2-for-1 them (at worst, they still discard). Negate just seems good in this meta right now ... almost every tourney deck runs at least one slot of noncreature spell. Disperse is just the nuts ... this card has helped me flip tempo so many times and ended up winning me many games.
Is he only considered to have the +1/+1 counters on him if he's dying to the BSZ but not later on when dying to combat?
4 Sundial of the Infinite
Creature
4 Blade Splicer
3 Glimmerpoint Stag
4 Spellskite
3 Stonehorn Dignitary
2 Sun Titan
Enchantment
4 Oblivion Ring
Planeswalker
4 Venser, the Sojourner
3 Day of Judgment
4 Ponder
Land (25)
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Moorland Haunt
4 Island
7 Plains
1 Buried Ruin
2 Celestial Purge
2 Divine Offering
3 Flashfreeze
2 Revoke Existence
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tumble Magnet
1 Stonehorn Dignitary
Sundial of the Infinite: This is very useful to help keep the tempo in your favor. You can force your opponent to do things on their turn instead of yours. This card is also great with Glimmerpoint Stag, you can exile something and when the return to battlefield trigger goes on the stack during the end phase, you activate Sundial. In effect, you permanently exile a permanent and the return to battlefield won't happen. Secondly, Sundial has a good interaction with Oblivion Ring (and Fiend Hunter) because you can blink the O-Ring with Venser, and activate Sundial when the leave the battlefield trigger goes on the stack, and what you exiled with O-Ring will stay exiled, and at the end of the next turn, the O-Ring comes back to exile something new!
Essentially, Sundial + Stag lets you keep exiling any permanents for 5 mana. Also, with Sundial + O-Ring, you can blink an O-Ring onto a new (nonland) permanent every turn that will stay permanently exiled.
Spellskite: This card is very necessary here. They are going to go after your Venser, Sundial, and Stonehorn with removal, so best to have some bullet-takers on the board. This is good defense for the early aggro of red decks (Stromkirk) and the recent surge in Human decks (Mirran Crusader, Doomed Traveler, etc).
Stonehorn Dignitary: Tee-hee Obvious sideboard out vs creature-less control decks. Can be game-winning vs so many decks in the current meta as long as you can protect him (Spellskite) when you start blinking him with Venser.
Glimmerpoint Stag: Can do cool things like blink a Stonehorn or Blade Splicer. Can also be used to lock up a permanent with Venser blinking the Stag every turn.
Things to tweak:
Would love some feedback guys, thanks.
So if one decides to shorten the shortcut by saying "ok 1000 turns later (instead of a trillion), I will make a game choice that is different than what has been proposed" and you go ahead and take the shortcut and 1000 turns later, you instead cast the Blue Sun's Zenith (for 0 still) during a different phase than the one specified by the player who suggested the shortcut ... would that constitute "making a different choice" and thus satisfy the shortened shortcut's completion?
His list can be found here http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/feature-article-pristine-control/
Here is my tweak to the list:
meow
4 Pristine Talisman
3 Ratchet Bomb
Creature
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Enchantment
3 Oblivion Ring
Planeswalker
2 Gideon Jura
1 Elspeth Tirel
1 Karn Liberated
Instant
4 Mana Leak
2 Dissipate
1 Negate
4 Think Twice
3 White Sun's Zenith
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Day of Judgment
Land (26)
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Ghost Quarter
6 Island
8 Plains
3 Timely Reinforcements
3 Celestial Purge
2 Flashfreeze
1 Divine Offering
2 Phantasmal Image
1 Dissipate
1 Dismember
2 Negate
If Karn Liberated's ultimate is activated, and Disperse is cast targeting Karn and resolves. Karn is returned to hand, but then does his ultimate resolve? It refers to cards exiled by Karn Liberated (an object that no longer exists). At that point, I would think the cards exiled by Karn (the no-longer-existing object) and cards exiled by other means, are just all one big exile stack that are indistinguishable.
Question 2
Olivia Voldaren is out and she gets targeted with Go for the Throat. In response, her second ability is activated and she targets herself. That would mean you have control over your own Olivia for as long as you control Olivia. Once GftT resolves, you no longer control Olivia so would control be given back to you even though it's in the graveyard?
How do you win games? Karn is marginal. You need Nephalia Drownyard maybe for mill as an alternate wincon. You might want to consider some fatties (Grave Titan, Consecrated Sphinx) in your Ponder slot.
Right, but you're only talking about Wolfrun. Against every other aggro deck it is too slow and I still think Dissipation Field is better overall. With Wolfrun, there are easier tools to break this deck. Wolfrun's Inkmoth isn't the only wincon and there are other things you need to worry about other than the Inkmoth. If it takes you 5 mana enchantment to kill an Inkmoth, you got other things to worry about. The Curse is really only effective against the Inkmoth which is really a very narrow angle of the deck.
the way I see it ... if you haven't controlled the board enough by turn 5, you're probably dead anyway. but if you have managed to control the board a bit and survive aggro until T5, why not have them bounce everything back and have to recast and go through summoning sickness. it buys you time to try to re-answer their threats.
I see how in specific situations you might want the Curse over the Field (Wolf Ramp) but overall I like the Field especially against aggro. against Wolf Ramp there are easier tools than the Curse.
I have been having trouble with aggro a lot and tokens has gotten popular along with tempered steel. UB decks have been resorting to Curse of Death's Hold but I think Dissipation Field is a much better option vs tokens and heavy early aggro so I've bumped the curse out of the SB and running the Dissipation Field instead.
A few awesome 1-ofs that I'm piloting are: Disperse, Negate, and Frightful Delusion. Frightftul can be a good surprise out of nowehere when they tap out for something and you 2-for-1 them (at worst, they still discard). Negate just seems good in this meta right now ... almost every tourney deck runs at least one slot of noncreature spell. Disperse is just the nuts ... this card has helped me flip tempo so many times and ended up winning me many games.
2 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Grave Titan
4 Snapcaster Mage
Instant (22)
3 Dissipate
1 Doom Blade
3 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Mana Leak
4 Think Twice
2 Wring Flesh
1 Dismember
1 Disperse
1 Negate
1 Go for the Throat
1 Frightful Delusion
2 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Sorin's Vengeance
Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (26)
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Ghost Quarter
8 Island
2 Nephalia Drownyard
6 Swamp
1 Negate
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Wring Flesh
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Batterskull
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Disperse
2 Dissipation Field