Interesting take, it makes sense to be honest. Some of us are going in the no-lord goblin direction and it seems fit to do so. Also post a finished list on here when you are done.
Cool list, I never liked Tin Street to be honest, Destructive Revelry is just a better card. You taking out some token generators for piledrivers? You also have more fetches then you have lands to search for, try going down to just fetches and replace Bloodstained Mire with Copperline Gorge if you can get your hands on some. Even if we are fast, you don't wanna fetch too much with burn being around, because let's face it...everyone has a burn deck.
Picelli89, I get where you are coming from, I was so sceptical about removing Chieftain. I thought besides Goblin Guide and Loyalist he is the best goblin we have in the deck. With the release of Piledriver coming up, I was wrong.
Here's a view of my RB list and my RG list. With a couple of additions/subtractions for both decks, they have become super quick, consistent turn 4-6 kills, If left unchecked turn 3 at best.
As you can see both decks have a sort of template, pile driver will take the place over certain cards in both decks of course.
In the RB version, -1 Wardriver, -2 Mogg Fanatic, and -1 Mogg War Marshal for 4x Goblin Piledriver
In the RG version, -2 Dragon Fodder, and -2 Mogg Fanatic for 4 Goblin Piledriver.
Anyways, these are my current lists. Both versions have a higher win ratio then loss ratio and all this testing is done on MTGO.
Would love some input, I will post the final results once I reach 50 matches with each and go from there.
Ok so i think you are in the middle when it comes to a deck idea. You aren't quite token goblins, or tokenless gobos, also, you need to focus on what creatures you want in the deck. In order to effectively utilize goblin piledriver we need as much creatures attacking as fast as possible. With your deck it will be too slow to use piledrive effectively. Warren instigator is not good with cards like bushwhacker. You wouldn't want him coming into play with warren because he won't be kicked and loses his value. Also you have no removal for any creatures mainboard which is only going to screw you up in the end. Every deck that runs red needs Lightning Bolt, it is the best 1 drop instant in modern.
Reverberate seems bad to me, here's why. Why run a spell that costs RR when i can cast low casting goblin spells like Foundry Street Denizen or Goblin Guide which in turn help me boost piledriver? That, does not make sense in my mind. I get it, copying goblin grenade is nice, but i rather just pay R for a grenade and go from there. Consider it as a sideboard option though, test it, and see what your results are. .
Sword's are not good mainboard because we have no way of searching for them and they are a horrible top deck late game, we also don't have the mana curve to support casting a low mana creature and paying to attach an equipment piece all in the same turn.
You only run 19 lands but you are running 4 Rabble and 4 Chieftain and 3 Swords...you will get screwed on mana so many times, you need at least 20, 21 would be best. My advice, lower the curve, take out the swords and the rabbles. Chieftain is something thats a player call in my opinion, I myself have taken them out. But that's my choice.
To be honest green gives us Atarka's Command with sideboard, black gives us Spike Jester with sideboard. If people are going the green direction then it would be a token build, see primer. Black seems to go more a Tokenless goblin build.
Mono red is a stable version, unfortunately with enchantments like ghostly prison, there is no answer in mono red to that.
I would go with a splash, currently I am testing both the black splash as well as the green splash with different builds. I'll posts the lists once I tune them a bit more.
In the end StrichnineGaming, it is a meta call. If you have some control that plays enchantments go for the green splash. If you have more abzan and jund decks, I would suggest going for the black splash since it contains a better creature kill package. Or you could mono red if you have a lot of tron/combo in the format since speed is a must.
Ghor-Clan Rampager is an awesome card no doubt, I haven't really tested it to be honest. If you look at the primer under Splashing goblins you can get an example of RW list.
There has been a lot of discussion on the white splash but I don't remember anyone coming back with results.
All interesting ideas gentlemen, especially the summary by SoDamnLucky. All that is in the primer like just like you said. Were back on track now.
With all the criticism towards CoCo in goblins, I have come to agree with everyone, it just doesn't work. However Atarka's Command most definitely does, that and destructive revelry are the only reasons to run green with Gobos. That being said, we should all consider a few facts.
Even with goblin piledriver being reprinted, all in goblins doesn't work very well in this current meta. Aggro decks are on the rise, and more control is coming out to punish that. Mid-range is on the rise with Grixis Delver, Junk/Abzan, and Jund.
I think if anyone is considering the Green splash Cimu's RG deck is the best example we could use for goblins. It was solid, similar to the primer, and had a mild splash for certain cards that are needed to fight current tier 1 decks IE Destructive Revelry and Atarka's Command.
I have tested this card extensively and found it is always targeted, which is good because more removal spells targeted towards other lesser creature as opposed to our lord or battlecry effect is profit. In my opinion, i want every creature that comes into play to be a target, every creature should pose a huge threat, that's the direction i feel we should go in. All in goblins won't survive the aggro infested CoCo meta, I have tried extensively, now that being said, piledriver could change that. I still feel everyone should at least test this card before they knock it. I have never not wanted to see Instigator, its 1/1 with double strike for RR with an additional effect which helps goblins. I don't know guys, it just seems illogical not to run him, but i'm open to reasons for him not to see play.
Warren is good for two reasons. One, he gets attention away from lord effects because warren won't stay on the board long. Two, at worst, he's 1/1 double striker that can put two gobos into play from your hand.
Consider splash list guys, atarkas command is too good not to use.
Also, coco versions of goblins is running 21-22 lands, helping a turn 4 cast that much more helpful.
Let's not get away from the basis of goblins here guys. Which is always, play fast win fast. I'm thinking CoCo is too good right now to not play it, even with grafdigger's cage in recent sideboards it really doesn't hurt us all that much. So I'm thinking splashing is good for one reason only. If we don't have a way to kill enchantments, there really is no point to running mono red, ghostly prison is a real card, I wouldn't be surprised with piledriver being reprinted we don't see this card in a lot more sideboards. Splashing green for Collected Company/Atarka's Command or black for Spike Jester/Foul-Tongue Shriek seems like a solid direction for the mainboard.
Piledriver will give us the edge we need when it comes to the new upcoming modern metagame, just don't forget he doesn't take us all the way just yet. Basically, with the addition of piledrivers, we are finally able to draw more attention away from our lord affects, and add straight power to the deck. But that doesn't mean we should stop running lord affects all together, in my eyes thats silly.
Now heres a question we have to ask ourselves, should piledriver be used more with Token-Gobos or Tokenless-Gobos? My answer, we can use it in both. To be perfectly honest, i'm adding him to the staple section of the primer, if everyone is cool with that?
Now to my list, this deck is not end all be all, but it's consistent and I have been tuning it for quite awhile now.
Coco Gobo's is what I was calling it at the tournament.
I agree with Cimu, Atarka's Command has more options when it comes to the current meta. It can stop any lifegain strategy. It can help us defend against tokens with reach/+1+1. It bolts your opponents without targeting them (This gets around Leyline of Sanctity). It also puts an extra land which can help you ramp up.
I also agree in certain situations Shared Animosity is better when it comes to the surprise factor and combat damage. It is also the only option if you are running Mono Red.
Sidenote: I had pyrite spellsbombs but figured he wouldn't run Pro Red guys...but he did
Game 2 I took a one land hand consisting of Loyalist, bolt, 2 volleys, dolmen gate, blood moon. I could cast half my hand so I took it. Never drew another land, the hand of greed was against me. Same as first game, expect he comboed off with Kitchen finks, Viscera Seer, Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit. Couldn't do much, made a few mistakes that lost me the game because of it. I will know better for next time.
Round 3: Scapeshift (2-1)
Game 1 I rushed him with guide, and war driver second turn. Turn 3 Blood Moon, he looks at me and says "Mainboard? That sucks". He scoops after he drew.
Sideboard: Nothing (I really didn't need one considering blood moon mb)
Game 2 I came at him with a loyalist, rushed him quick with an instigator. Got in a Chieftain and war driver. But 2 Baloth's and 2 Anger of the Gods later, I was a sad panda.
Game 3 I only had a loyalist in play for a few turns, I'm putting pressure on him with bolts, he casts his baloth, i respond with Atarka's command. I then proceed with a goblin king when he had mountains in play. Loyalist and a bolt win the day.
Round 4: Living End (2-1)
Game 1 I was to fast for him, guides, loyalist wardriver, goblin king, and goblin grenade. He couldn't combo off.
Game 2 He was able to combo off, removing my board leaving me with a loyalist back from the yard. Couldn't get a blood moon or and goblin king.
Game 3 Again too fast for him, he living ends when he was at 1 health. I get a guide back, top deck a blood moon with a goblin grenade in hand. Morale of this game...No one ever expects the Goblin Grenade.
All in all I did well against the decks I knew, poorly against the deck I didn't. I will be more prepared for it next game when I put torpor orb in the sideboard instead of dolmen gate and something else.
List is the same as stated before, I have added Back to Nature in the sideboard removing pithing needle in fear of boggles which I did see yesterday when I was at my LGS. Either way they do this every Thursday, so if I can get it off I will be posting a lot more reports in the times to come.
What is Phyrexian Revoker for Engineered Explosives/Ratchet bomb?
Here's a view of my RB list and my RG list. With a couple of additions/subtractions for both decks, they have become super quick, consistent turn 4-6 kills, If left unchecked turn 3 at best.
RB List:
4x Foundry Street Denizen
4x Goblin Guide
4x Legion Loyalist
4x Goblin Bushwhacker
2x Mogg Fanatic
4x Mogg War Marshal
1x Goblin Wardriver
4x Spike Jester
1x Devastating Summons
2x Forked Bolt
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Goblin Grenade
2x Titan's Strength
1x Terminate
4x Mountain
4x Auntie's Hovel
3x Blackcleave Cliffs
2x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Cavern of Souls
RG List
4x Foundry Street Denizen
4x Goblin Guide
4x Legion Loyalist
4x Goblin Bushwhacker
2x Mogg Fanatic
4x Mogg War Marshal
1x Devastating Summons
2x Forked Bolt
4x Lightning bolt
4x Goblin Grenade
2x Titan's Strength
2x Dragon Fodder
3x Atarka's Command
6x Mountain
4x Copperline Gorge
3x Stomping Ground
3x Cavern of Souls
4x Wooded Foothills
As you can see both decks have a sort of template, pile driver will take the place over certain cards in both decks of course.
In the RB version, -1 Wardriver, -2 Mogg Fanatic, and -1 Mogg War Marshal for 4x Goblin Piledriver
In the RG version, -2 Dragon Fodder, and -2 Mogg Fanatic for 4 Goblin Piledriver.
Anyways, these are my current lists. Both versions have a higher win ratio then loss ratio and all this testing is done on MTGO.
Would love some input, I will post the final results once I reach 50 matches with each and go from there.
Ok so i think you are in the middle when it comes to a deck idea. You aren't quite token goblins, or tokenless gobos, also, you need to focus on what creatures you want in the deck. In order to effectively utilize goblin piledriver we need as much creatures attacking as fast as possible. With your deck it will be too slow to use piledrive effectively. Warren instigator is not good with cards like bushwhacker. You wouldn't want him coming into play with warren because he won't be kicked and loses his value. Also you have no removal for any creatures mainboard which is only going to screw you up in the end. Every deck that runs red needs Lightning Bolt, it is the best 1 drop instant in modern.
Reverberate seems bad to me, here's why. Why run a spell that costs RR when i can cast low casting goblin spells like Foundry Street Denizen or Goblin Guide which in turn help me boost piledriver? That, does not make sense in my mind. I get it, copying goblin grenade is nice, but i rather just pay R for a grenade and go from there. Consider it as a sideboard option though, test it, and see what your results are. .
Sword's are not good mainboard because we have no way of searching for them and they are a horrible top deck late game, we also don't have the mana curve to support casting a low mana creature and paying to attach an equipment piece all in the same turn.
You only run 19 lands but you are running 4 Rabble and 4 Chieftain and 3 Swords...you will get screwed on mana so many times, you need at least 20, 21 would be best. My advice, lower the curve, take out the swords and the rabbles. Chieftain is something thats a player call in my opinion, I myself have taken them out. But that's my choice.
Mono red is a stable version, unfortunately with enchantments like ghostly prison, there is no answer in mono red to that.
I would go with a splash, currently I am testing both the black splash as well as the green splash with different builds. I'll posts the lists once I tune them a bit more.
In the end StrichnineGaming, it is a meta call. If you have some control that plays enchantments go for the green splash. If you have more abzan and jund decks, I would suggest going for the black splash since it contains a better creature kill package. Or you could mono red if you have a lot of tron/combo in the format since speed is a must.
There has been a lot of discussion on the white splash but I don't remember anyone coming back with results.
With all the criticism towards CoCo in goblins, I have come to agree with everyone, it just doesn't work. However Atarka's Command most definitely does, that and destructive revelry are the only reasons to run green with Gobos. That being said, we should all consider a few facts.
Even with goblin piledriver being reprinted, all in goblins doesn't work very well in this current meta. Aggro decks are on the rise, and more control is coming out to punish that. Mid-range is on the rise with Grixis Delver, Junk/Abzan, and Jund.
I think if anyone is considering the Green splash Cimu's RG deck is the best example we could use for goblins. It was solid, similar to the primer, and had a mild splash for certain cards that are needed to fight current tier 1 decks IE Destructive Revelry and Atarka's Command.
(Here's his list)
4x Goblin Guide
4x Foundry Street Denizen
4x Legion Loyalist
2x Spikeshot Elder
4x Goblin Bushwhacker
4x Goblin Chieftain
Sorceries/Instants:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Goblin Grenade
4x Krenko's Command
4x Dragon Fodder
3x Atarka's Command
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Stomping Ground
2x Cavern of Souls
10x Mountain
4x Pyrite Spellbomb
4x Rending Volley
4x Destructive Revelry
3x Skullcrack
Subterranean Scout
Its a good card, it works with our theme, and making a creature unblockable is always good and can help in certain match ups. Now that being said, it also makes us more susceptible to Torpor Orb, which stops Foundry Street Denizen, Goblin Bushwhacker, and Mogg War Marshal already.
Everyone should come up with ideas for a black splash with pile driver. Would love to see some lists so I can add some them to the primer.
Keep the ideas coming guys!
Consider splash list guys, atarkas command is too good not to use.
Also, coco versions of goblins is running 21-22 lands, helping a turn 4 cast that much more helpful.
Piledriver will give us the edge we need when it comes to the new upcoming modern metagame, just don't forget he doesn't take us all the way just yet. Basically, with the addition of piledrivers, we are finally able to draw more attention away from our lord affects, and add straight power to the deck. But that doesn't mean we should stop running lord affects all together, in my eyes thats silly.
So my suggestion, or at the least the route i'm going, is to stick with CoCo Gobos for three reasons. First, helps us recover faster after board wipes, IE Collected Company. Secondly, has mainboard answers to decks like Soul Sisters, Martyr Proc, and CoCo Podless, IE Atarka's Command. Lastly, it also gives the opponents more threats to deal with, IE Goblin Rabblemaster, Goblin King, Goblin Chieftain, Warren Instigator, and now Goblin Piledriver.
Now heres a question we have to ask ourselves, should piledriver be used more with Token-Gobos or Tokenless-Gobos? My answer, we can use it in both. To be perfectly honest, i'm adding him to the staple section of the primer, if everyone is cool with that?
Now to my list, this deck is not end all be all, but it's consistent and I have been tuning it for quite awhile now.
Creatures (26)
4x Goblin Guide
4x Legion Loyalist
3x Goblin Wardriver
2x Warren Instigator
2x Goblin Rabblemaster
4x Goblin Chieftain
3x Goblin King
4x Goblin Piledriver
Spells (13)
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Goblin Grenade
2x Atarka's Command
2x Blood Moon
2x Collected Company
7x Mountain
3x Stomping Ground
3x Copperline Gorge
1x Forest
3x Cavern of Souls
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pyrite Spellbomb
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Rending Volley
2x Back to Nature
2x Destructive Revelry
2x Choke
I took out -1 Rabblemaster, -1 wardriver, -1 Goblin King, and -1 Warren instigator for +4 Piledrivers, i believe that is the right choice.
Tell me what you guys think, as well as any solid opinion for the future of the primer.
I agree with Cimu, Atarka's Command has more options when it comes to the current meta. It can stop any lifegain strategy. It can help us defend against tokens with reach/+1+1. It bolts your opponents without targeting them (This gets around Leyline of Sanctity). It also puts an extra land which can help you ramp up.
I also agree in certain situations Shared Animosity is better when it comes to the surprise factor and combat damage. It is also the only option if you are running Mono Red.
First Round: Zombies(2-0)
He was new to modern, never participated in a tournament, so this was pretty much a bye for me.
I killed him in 3-4 each game, he couldn't cast zombies fast enough to make it past the speed of goblins. I didn't sideboard because I didn't need to
Sideboard: Nothing
Second Round: CoCo Podless Pod (0-2)
Game 1 I bolted his voice of resurgence on his turn not reading the card properly. My fault, lost me the game and he trucked me with tokens.
Sideboard: -3 Rabble Master -1 Goblin wardriver, +3 Rending Volley, +1 Dolmen Gate
Sidenote: I had pyrite spellsbombs but figured he wouldn't run Pro Red guys...but he did
Game 2 I took a one land hand consisting of Loyalist, bolt, 2 volleys, dolmen gate, blood moon. I could cast half my hand so I took it. Never drew another land, the hand of greed was against me. Same as first game, expect he comboed off with Kitchen finks, Viscera Seer, Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit. Couldn't do much, made a few mistakes that lost me the game because of it. I will know better for next time.
Round 3: Scapeshift (2-1)
Game 1 I rushed him with guide, and war driver second turn. Turn 3 Blood Moon, he looks at me and says "Mainboard? That sucks". He scoops after he drew.
Sideboard: Nothing (I really didn't need one considering blood moon mb)
Game 2 I came at him with a loyalist, rushed him quick with an instigator. Got in a Chieftain and war driver. But 2 Baloth's and 2 Anger of the Gods later, I was a sad panda.
Game 3 I only had a loyalist in play for a few turns, I'm putting pressure on him with bolts, he casts his baloth, i respond with Atarka's command. I then proceed with a goblin king when he had mountains in play. Loyalist and a bolt win the day.
Round 4: Living End (2-1)
Game 1 I was to fast for him, guides, loyalist wardriver, goblin king, and goblin grenade. He couldn't combo off.
Sideboard: -3 Rabble master +2 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Dolmen Gate
Game 2 He was able to combo off, removing my board leaving me with a loyalist back from the yard. Couldn't get a blood moon or and goblin king.
Game 3 Again too fast for him, he living ends when he was at 1 health. I get a guide back, top deck a blood moon with a goblin grenade in hand. Morale of this game...No one ever expects the Goblin Grenade.
All in all I did well against the decks I knew, poorly against the deck I didn't. I will be more prepared for it next game when I put torpor orb in the sideboard instead of dolmen gate and something else.
List is the same as stated before, I have added Back to Nature in the sideboard removing pithing needle in fear of boggles which I did see yesterday when I was at my LGS. Either way they do this every Thursday, so if I can get it off I will be posting a lot more reports in the times to come.