Boros- Knight
Dimir- Spider. The head is close to the middle of the keyrune, the tail is at the top. six legs? Kinda sketchy, but that's what's displayed.
Gruul - Rhino
Simic - I'd like to say Cephalid, but it's likely some sort of mollusk
Orzhov - Gargoyle or Bat
I woke up this morning to a Google Alert of a new webpage linking to me (yeah, I'm vain that way) and found this thread. It's actually awesome timing: I'm putting the finishing touches on a new version of the app, rewritten from the ground up, and updated with this missing cards. I hope to finish it in the next week, day job permitting. I'll come back and post when it's up.
I'm really flattered and honored by your comments. So glad it's been of use.
~ McGee
Awesome! Thanks for the update. We all appreciate it
This was likely posted over a year ago, but this is pretty awesome. The creator posted here about it, but I was wondering if this was still being updated?
Just sharing for a new crowd.
Also, I did not create this. That is a disclaimer from the start. Just looking to see if it was being updated on a per set basis
I will proceed, in order, from top quote to bottom:
1. Please provide quoted proof of where I said BBE was a modal spell. I do not appreciate words being stuffed into my mouth. I simply stated, and I shall quote myself:
Quote from Kyrillos »
I realize I have given a list of what could come from a BBE.
While I may be generalizing my statement from that quote, its the main part I'd like to use. I have never explicitly stated that BBE was a modal spell. I have acknowledged BBE's core weakness already.
2. I guess, as a counter argument to appease you, I'd play Mnemonic Wall as a body, early game, when I needed to block some serious heat coming in. I.E. Rafiq of the Many as a basic aggro example.
This is also supposed to be a point showing how a deck may not want to run it, do to say....construction limitations? That may be the best word to use. You'd not want to run Mnemonic Wall in a deck with few instants and sorceries. You'd not want to run Bloodbraid Elf in a deck with many cards that you dont want to cascade into, say...Counterspell's in a RUG setting. Just an example.
Also this:
Quote from therestless »
You don't get to make that determination with BBE.
Uh......ok? I could just, you know, NOT CAST BBE. Pretty easy to look through my GY and hand to see what I've casted and then go: "Oh, this looks like a terrible time to cast BBE!"
3. Without deck manipulation and properly considered construction, many things are terrible, even many cards within the top 50. It was merely a suggestion on how its singular shortcoming can be overcome.
4. I have listed cards out for BBE. You have listed none. Please provide proof.
As an aside, I feel it's also good to provide a few cards at each cmc, on curve, to ensure hitting a drop at that cmc. I feel that the cmc argument that I presented is largely irrelevant in this context. BBE is a 3/2 Haste with a Free Spell on top of it. A classic 2-for-1, better than a greed creature with an ETB effect. You're assured that when you cast BBE, that second spell will be cast, regardless of BBE's resolution. Saying it again...value. There are very few spells that provide a free, automatic spell upon casting of the original spell
5. Animar was an example. You are reading waaaaayyyy too far into said example. Here's a commander I'm not sure I'd fit BBE into, for synergistic reasons:
Rosheen Meanderer, since cascading into X spells is a known issue and limitation.
5. I'll assume that "..." means conceding the point.
6. You are taking the hypothetical in this situation way to seriously. I'm just going to ignore that part and then try to explain this, in terms that you will recognize:
If it's not a good time to cast Bloodbraid Elf you can easily determine that this is the case and just not cast Bloodbraid Elf.
---
We can propose situations possible situations all day.I urge you, please provide some substance and meat to your arguments. I can hardly take you for anything but a troll right now.
---
@Azure: I asked my playgroup about this, and we all agreed on this tonight:
Past the minor mana changes and the decently relevant everyone to you change, we all aren't big fans of Faith's Reward. Almost every deck that I play against has at least three to four sweeps. It's just that we all tutor for spot removal against the most annoying things (currently Avacyn, Angel of Hope and/or untargetable Bruna which is the only card on their field, AKA Diabolic Edict effect.) Afterall, many of us run relatively creature based strategies right now, and only one of us isnt in black. (I.E. some of the main engine pieces are creatures) The only true way to nuke our boards is with something that exiles. In that regard, sweeps become sort of an "emergency reset button" that most are afraid to push, because we'll just get something scary back again. Or someone ELSE will get YOUR scary thing easier.
Second playgroup sweeps were as common, and used quite often. There was a large political issue with people having more than others, and a threatened player would tutor for a sweep to remove the remaining players stuff. The decks were terribly more brutal than the first playgroups. Diamond Valley+Yosei is a bit rough. So was T1. Entomb->Jin-Gitaxis, T2->Reanimate->Jin-Gitaxis. So I guess I'll throw some words in here and say:
I don't live in a magical Christmas land with no combos and no sweeps. There's very much combo, control, sweeps, and aggro. A bloody lot of it as well. There are dedicated control decks to control the meta.
Faith's Reward isn't anything close to "almost functional reprint of Second Sunrise". It's so, so much better because it's one-sided. That alone is huge, and puts it well above it in terms of utility and power. Playing it EoT after someone else wipes the board is INCREDIBLE, and I'm completely and utterly shocked by how underplayed that card is. Played at the right time, it can practically win the game by itself.
In regards to Coiling Oracle, the only deck I'd rather have it than any of its alternatives is Momir Vig, and even then it's kinda iffy as such a worthless creature to play that late in the game. It should probably come off in favor of something else.
...
Almost function meaning the changed the mana cost around and changed some wording. It's the exact same effect, only for you. I don't think its significantly better thanSecond Sunrise. It belongs in the same class of cards as Second Sunrise. To be even more brutally honest, its just a souped up version of Second Sunrise.
@therestless:
I realize I have given a list of what could come from a BBE. I think it is staggering the amount of good stuff that can come from a BBE. It's not just a "oh, I got a utility creature/instant/sorcery" from it. There are relevant spells that can come from a BBE Cascade. Sure, you've shown a few examples of how BBE could fizzle. There are limitations, as there are with many other cards on the Top 50. I.E. Mnemonic Wall in a deck with few instants/sorceries. The precedent of including a card that could fizzle/be dead is already set.
You can abuse the top of your deck with BBE with very little manipulation. BBE remains dangerous, no matter how you approach the arguement. It requires very little setup, in terms of deck construction, to easily abuse. It fits well into the 4cmc slot. If you start looking at the variety of tutors/effects in allied tri color decks, White and Black, you'll notice that you can very easily set the top of your deck, cast BBE, and the get something great. Sensei's Divining Top helps to set the top of your deck, and is included in a vast majority of Commander lists. It provides a body and a free spell. It's great in all-creature Animar lists for starters. I run a copy in my derping around Progenitus deck.
...It can cascade INTO Dauntless Escort, if you play Naya. I don't think the lack of "control" is terribly worrying. I think the scary thing is the possibilities, which what this format is about. BBE can have a significant impact on the game state, in a far more timely manner than Dauntless Escort or Coiling Oracle.
I do not think that BBE should be ignored. It has the potential to be far stronger than Dauntless Escort, consistency ignored. Dauntless Escort could easily be a fizzle anyways. Tuck effect, counter spell, it has to be resolved and then sacrificed, Abuseability is not on an ETB trigger...
Countering BBE will still let the second spell go. You're likely getting at least one spell, unless the opponent wastes 2 counters on the BBE+trigger. I call that value. The number of ways that Dauntless Escort can be prevented is far higher than BBE. The cascade trigger will go off, unless it's Hushed, Stifle'd, Bound, or Slime'd. A small subset of cards.
Coiling Oracle removed; Bloodbraid Elf added. Please. If you're decrying the possibility of a fizzle, I've cited at least one case of situational precedent already. I'm willing to cite more, as well a more great cards that BBE can cascade into, from within colors. What more do you need to be convinced?
Me: "So, you want *censored* unblocked? What, and let you roam online looking at *censored*?"
Guy: *holds out FTV SDT*
Me: "Goddammit." *take* "It'll be up in the morning. Get the hell out of my office."
(I'll shut up now, I promise.)
I generally tell people where I work that I'll go hide outside in the "quad" and sit at a table in the shade to get work done. They ask me why and I say "because if I didnt tell you this, you'd never find me"
If your network admin is scottish, theres always bribing him with a sheep.... ( )
So, what is everyones most expensive/prized card. Mine is honestly a workshop I picked up yesterday, followed by the RUS Foil Elspeth I pulled in a pack....
Dauntless Escort is better than Bloodbraid, in EDH. As therestless mentioned, being able to have one-sided Wraths is gamebreaking, and the fact that Sun Titan brings him back is pure gravy.
BBE can get things that are more than just "utility instants/sorceries" anyways. There are plenty of good 1, 2, and 3 drops in R/G/Colorless. Heck, you can cascade in to a the much maligned Taurean Mauler. Open your mind to the possibility that BBE can get more than "utility instant and sorceries". On a curve, Bloodbraid Elf will always be my 4cmc choice over Dauntless Escort at 2cmc. The 2cmc slot is too crowded. I'd rather play Elfhame Sanctuary over Dauntless Escort. I'd rather play a Fauna Shaman over a Dauntless Escort. There's too much at 2cmc. If your anti-sweep strategy is Escort, I dare say you'll have a bad time. I'll repeat myself time and time again and say something outlandish right now:
Coiling Oracle is better than Dauntless Escort, in my opinion. I would rather set my hand than protect my field. If we include methods to recur effects, Coiling Oracle will have increasing gains, while Dauntless Escort prolongs the inevitable. Winning>Turtling. I can protect my field with my hand in almost every instance. have your field long enough to win you the game, I'd think you're mistaken. Things get blown up all the time. DE would be a very quick cut for me, and it SCREAMS Hidden Gem. It provides no instant value, does not give you a chance to get an extra spell, etc.etc.etc. It may save you for a turn or two, sure, but once that wrath hits the field, you WILL be the target, the removal WILL be used on you, and people WILL play around Dauntless Escort. There's no "maybe" factor like there is with Counterspells and Spot Removal. Your opponents will KNOW that Dauntless Escort will trigger when a wrath hits the field.
The only thing, in my opinion, that makes Dauntless Escort mildly attractive is its mana cost. It can be recurred by Sun Titan. Whoop-ee. I'm excited. So many other things can be recurred by Sun Titan that are much more interesting things to do. I'll give a resounding "no" vote to Dauntless Escort. It's sweet tech, for the right deck, but BBE's potential is far more than what people realize.
Here's a list of cards, on the top 50 that can be hit by Bloodbraid Elf, staying in G/R/Colorless:
This is a long list, and I skipped over the cards like Banefire and Fork/Reverberate that would fizzle when cascaded into. BTW, that list was....5-7 cards long. I stopped caring. It pales in comparision to the one I just made of in color/artifacts that can be cascaded into.
I can go dig up a list of more cards if I need to. Just saying. Dauntless Escort is too gem-like. I'll be calling for its removal by the end of year.
---
Faith's Reward is sweet, but if Second Sunrise isn't on there, an almost? functional repeat will not make it at +1.
Can be recurred with Sun Titan. Amazing, and easy to manage, as a surprise Chord of Calling hit. Soaks a sweeper from your opponent (excepting a select few) or lets you break the symmetry on your own sweeper.
I have a major dislike for Dauntless Escort. Does little to further your strategy. There's better options in those colors for protection/indestructibility from sweeps. The forced decision is nice, but it makes you a giant target afterwards. It doesn't protect against tuck/exile/sacrifice etc. Not a fan
I bet more people thought you were hot in your Taurus than me.
I actually think you're car is pretty cool. I have a soft spot for old, American made cars that are well maintained and have been driven around the world
I'm trained as a Civil Engineer, but I'm working at the Corporate HQ of a Large Insurance Firm in IT right now.
Dimir- Spider. The head is close to the middle of the keyrune, the tail is at the top. six legs? Kinda sketchy, but that's what's displayed.
Gruul - Rhino
Simic - I'd like to say Cephalid, but it's likely some sort of mollusk
Orzhov - Gargoyle or Bat
Awesome! Thanks for the update. We all appreciate it
Just sharing for a new crowd.
Also, I did not create this. That is a disclaimer from the start. Just looking to see if it was being updated on a per set basis
I will proceed, in order, from top quote to bottom:
1. Please provide quoted proof of where I said BBE was a modal spell. I do not appreciate words being stuffed into my mouth. I simply stated, and I shall quote myself:
While I may be generalizing my statement from that quote, its the main part I'd like to use. I have never explicitly stated that BBE was a modal spell. I have acknowledged BBE's core weakness already.
2. I guess, as a counter argument to appease you, I'd play Mnemonic Wall as a body, early game, when I needed to block some serious heat coming in. I.E. Rafiq of the Many as a basic aggro example.
This is also supposed to be a point showing how a deck may not want to run it, do to say....construction limitations? That may be the best word to use. You'd not want to run Mnemonic Wall in a deck with few instants and sorceries. You'd not want to run Bloodbraid Elf in a deck with many cards that you dont want to cascade into, say...Counterspell's in a RUG setting. Just an example.
Also this:
Uh......ok? I could just, you know, NOT CAST BBE. Pretty easy to look through my GY and hand to see what I've casted and then go: "Oh, this looks like a terrible time to cast BBE!"
3. Without deck manipulation and properly considered construction, many things are terrible, even many cards within the top 50. It was merely a suggestion on how its singular shortcoming can be overcome.
4. I have listed cards out for BBE. You have listed none. Please provide proof.
As an aside, I feel it's also good to provide a few cards at each cmc, on curve, to ensure hitting a drop at that cmc. I feel that the cmc argument that I presented is largely irrelevant in this context. BBE is a 3/2 Haste with a Free Spell on top of it. A classic 2-for-1, better than a greed creature with an ETB effect. You're assured that when you cast BBE, that second spell will be cast, regardless of BBE's resolution. Saying it again...value. There are very few spells that provide a free, automatic spell upon casting of the original spell
5. Animar was an example. You are reading waaaaayyyy too far into said example. Here's a commander I'm not sure I'd fit BBE into, for synergistic reasons:
Rosheen Meanderer, since cascading into X spells is a known issue and limitation.
5. I'll assume that "..." means conceding the point.
6. You are taking the hypothetical in this situation way to seriously. I'm just going to ignore that part and then try to explain this, in terms that you will recognize:
If it's not a good time to cast Bloodbraid Elf you can easily determine that this is the case and just not cast Bloodbraid Elf.
---
We can propose situations possible situations all day.I urge you, please provide some substance and meat to your arguments. I can hardly take you for anything but a troll right now.
---
@Azure: I asked my playgroup about this, and we all agreed on this tonight:
Past the minor mana changes and the decently relevant everyone to you change, we all aren't big fans of Faith's Reward. Almost every deck that I play against has at least three to four sweeps. It's just that we all tutor for spot removal against the most annoying things (currently Avacyn, Angel of Hope and/or untargetable Bruna which is the only card on their field, AKA Diabolic Edict effect.) Afterall, many of us run relatively creature based strategies right now, and only one of us isnt in black. (I.E. some of the main engine pieces are creatures) The only true way to nuke our boards is with something that exiles. In that regard, sweeps become sort of an "emergency reset button" that most are afraid to push, because we'll just get something scary back again. Or someone ELSE will get YOUR scary thing easier.
Second playgroup sweeps were as common, and used quite often. There was a large political issue with people having more than others, and a threatened player would tutor for a sweep to remove the remaining players stuff. The decks were terribly more brutal than the first playgroups. Diamond Valley+Yosei is a bit rough. So was T1. Entomb->Jin-Gitaxis, T2->Reanimate->Jin-Gitaxis. So I guess I'll throw some words in here and say:
I don't live in a magical Christmas land with no combos and no sweeps. There's very much combo, control, sweeps, and aggro. A bloody lot of it as well. There are dedicated control decks to control the meta.
...
Almost function meaning the changed the mana cost around and changed some wording. It's the exact same effect, only for you. I don't think its significantly better than Second Sunrise. It belongs in the same class of cards as Second Sunrise. To be even more brutally honest, its just a souped up version of Second Sunrise.
@therestless:
I realize I have given a list of what could come from a BBE. I think it is staggering the amount of good stuff that can come from a BBE. It's not just a "oh, I got a utility creature/instant/sorcery" from it. There are relevant spells that can come from a BBE Cascade. Sure, you've shown a few examples of how BBE could fizzle. There are limitations, as there are with many other cards on the Top 50. I.E. Mnemonic Wall in a deck with few instants/sorceries. The precedent of including a card that could fizzle/be dead is already set.
You can abuse the top of your deck with BBE with very little manipulation. BBE remains dangerous, no matter how you approach the arguement. It requires very little setup, in terms of deck construction, to easily abuse. It fits well into the 4cmc slot. If you start looking at the variety of tutors/effects in allied tri color decks, White and Black, you'll notice that you can very easily set the top of your deck, cast BBE, and the get something great. Sensei's Divining Top helps to set the top of your deck, and is included in a vast majority of Commander lists. It provides a body and a free spell. It's great in all-creature Animar lists for starters. I run a copy in my derping around Progenitus deck.
...It can cascade INTO Dauntless Escort, if you play Naya. I don't think the lack of "control" is terribly worrying. I think the scary thing is the possibilities, which what this format is about. BBE can have a significant impact on the game state, in a far more timely manner than Dauntless Escort or Coiling Oracle.
I do not think that BBE should be ignored. It has the potential to be far stronger than Dauntless Escort, consistency ignored. Dauntless Escort could easily be a fizzle anyways. Tuck effect, counter spell, it has to be resolved and then sacrificed, Abuseability is not on an ETB trigger...
Countering BBE will still let the second spell go. You're likely getting at least one spell, unless the opponent wastes 2 counters on the BBE+trigger. I call that value. The number of ways that Dauntless Escort can be prevented is far higher than BBE. The cascade trigger will go off, unless it's Hushed, Stifle'd, Bound, or Slime'd. A small subset of cards.
Coiling Oracle removed; Bloodbraid Elf added. Please. If you're decrying the possibility of a fizzle, I've cited at least one case of situational precedent already. I'm willing to cite more, as well a more great cards that BBE can cascade into, from within colors. What more do you need to be convinced?
I generally tell people where I work that I'll go hide outside in the "quad" and sit at a table in the shade to get work done. They ask me why and I say "because if I didnt tell you this, you'd never find me"
I have a Scroll Rack right now....
I have some shocks as well, an Urborg, Tomb or Yawgmoth, other stuff.... FtV: Exile Sensei's Divining Top...
I have never wanted/needed a Dauntless Escort when I am in colors. I have always wanted a Bloodbraid Elf.
BBE can get things that are more than just "utility instants/sorceries" anyways. There are plenty of good 1, 2, and 3 drops in R/G/Colorless. Heck, you can cascade in to a the much maligned Taurean Mauler. Open your mind to the possibility that BBE can get more than "utility instant and sorceries". On a curve, Bloodbraid Elf will always be my 4cmc choice over Dauntless Escort at 2cmc. The 2cmc slot is too crowded. I'd rather play Elfhame Sanctuary over Dauntless Escort. I'd rather play a Fauna Shaman over a Dauntless Escort. There's too much at 2cmc. If your anti-sweep strategy is Escort, I dare say you'll have a bad time. I'll repeat myself time and time again and say something outlandish right now:
Coiling Oracle is better than Dauntless Escort, in my opinion. I would rather set my hand than protect my field. If we include methods to recur effects, Coiling Oracle will have increasing gains, while Dauntless Escort prolongs the inevitable. Winning>Turtling. I can protect my field with my hand in almost every instance. have your field long enough to win you the game, I'd think you're mistaken. Things get blown up all the time. DE would be a very quick cut for me, and it SCREAMS Hidden Gem. It provides no instant value, does not give you a chance to get an extra spell, etc.etc.etc. It may save you for a turn or two, sure, but once that wrath hits the field, you WILL be the target, the removal WILL be used on you, and people WILL play around Dauntless Escort. There's no "maybe" factor like there is with Counterspells and Spot Removal. Your opponents will KNOW that Dauntless Escort will trigger when a wrath hits the field.
The only thing, in my opinion, that makes Dauntless Escort mildly attractive is its mana cost. It can be recurred by Sun Titan. Whoop-ee. I'm excited. So many other things can be recurred by Sun Titan that are much more interesting things to do. I'll give a resounding "no" vote to Dauntless Escort. It's sweet tech, for the right deck, but BBE's potential is far more than what people realize.
Here's a list of cards, on the top 50 that can be hit by Bloodbraid Elf, staying in G/R/Colorless:
Dwarven Blastminer
Dwarven Miner
Goblin Welder
Magus of the Moon
Squee, Goblin Nabob
Taurean Mauler
Viashino Heretic
Dosan the Falling Leaf
Eternal Witness
Fauna Shaman
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
Sakura Tribe-Elder
Scavenging Ooze
Wood Elves
Yavimaya Elder
Blood Moon
Boom/Bust
Chaos Warp
Gamble
Price of Progress
Recoup
Shattering Spree
Wheel of Fortune
Beast Within
Eartcraft
Exploration
Krosan Grip
Life from the Loam
Regrowth
Survival of the Fittest
Sylvan Library
Worldly Tutor
Lightning Greaves
Expedition Map
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Pithing Needle
Sol Ring
Skullclamp
Relic of Progenitus
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
Umezawa's Jitte
Scroll Rack
Mimic Vat
Sensei's Divining Top
This is a long list, and I skipped over the cards like Banefire and Fork/Reverberate that would fizzle when cascaded into. BTW, that list was....5-7 cards long. I stopped caring. It pales in comparision to the one I just made of in color/artifacts that can be cascaded into.
I can go dig up a list of more cards if I need to. Just saying. Dauntless Escort is too gem-like. I'll be calling for its removal by the end of year.
---
Faith's Reward is sweet, but if Second Sunrise isn't on there, an almost? functional repeat will not make it at +1.
---
To wit, nominees thus far:
Rafiq of the Many
Dauntless Escort
Bloodbraid Elf
Card to Remove (consensus):
Coiling Oracle
I have a major dislike for Dauntless Escort. Does little to further your strategy. There's better options in those colors for protection/indestructibility from sweeps. The forced decision is nice, but it makes you a giant target afterwards. It doesn't protect against tuck/exile/sacrifice etc. Not a fan
What about Bloodbraid Elf. It was a fairly popular standard card, it works well for cascading into a variety of threats in GR like Lightning Bolt. It can grab a creature like Yavimaya Elder, Goblin Matron, Goblin Welder, Sakura Tribe Elder, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Omnath, Locus of Mana etc. etc. It's a 2-for-1 spell, haste. Decent body for the casting cost. Better than Rafiq of the Many since it has an ETB?
Case in point, Norin the Wary decks.
You can make up for most color shortcomings through Colorless Cards.
It's a good start and its worth seeing what others thing
I actually think you're car is pretty cool. I have a soft spot for old, American made cars that are well maintained and have been driven around the world
I wrecked it the week before Junior Prom
Skill, I know.
Figured that was relevant since we were going from new cars to first cars.....