EDIT: Apparently there's a caveat here with undying. If the creature had a +1/+1 counter when it died - even if it also had -1/-1 counters to cancel - undying won't trigger. So this only works if geist hasn't already died once.
This is not correct. +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters dont just cancel each other, they actually remove each other from whatever permanent they're on so giving a -1/-1 counter to an undying creature will in fact bring it back with a +1/+1 counter again.
Nope, this is correct. The counters only cancel during the SBA check, and during that time, the game sees that the geist has 0 or less power and sends it to the graveyard. What happens is when geist dies, it checks the last known information, which it has BOTH the single +1/+1 counter AND the 3 -1/-1 counters, so it will not come back.
EDIT: relevant rules quoted
121.3. If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it. See rule 704.
704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanent’s last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.
Example: You control Young Wolf, a 1/1 creature with undying, and it has a +1/+1 counter on it. A spell puts three -1/-1 counters on Young Wolf. Before state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf has one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. After state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf is in the graveyard. When it was last on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying will not trigger.
EDIT: Apparently there's a caveat here with undying. If the creature had a +1/+1 counter when it died - even if it also had -1/-1 counters to cancel - undying won't trigger. So this only works if geist hasn't already died once.
This is not correct. +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters dont just cancel each other, they actually remove each other from whatever permanent they're on so giving a -1/-1 counter to an undying creature will in fact bring it back with a +1/+1 counter again.
Seriousl question; im currently running ob nixilis of the black oath and liliana vess. Im leaning towards cutting liliana vess so,im not running too many lilis but is the ob the better cut?
Looking for one or two people to join a mostly casual Wednesday night group in Chantilly, VA. We rotate format weekly between Powered Cube, multiplayer Commander and "60 card" multiplayer. Some of us also play competitively and would be interested in doing some testing for Standard, Modern, legacy and Vintage. PM me if you're interested.
If you got to put a +1/+1 counter on it as well as draw the card maybe.. but we have gotten a bunch of good 2 drops since I cut pain seer and blood scrivner. I just don't think this gets there.
That card would be insane. Evasion, draws cards, gets bigger, that would be an awesome and not really believable card to see printed.
I really don't think so. Becoming a 3/2 on turn 5 and a 4/3 on turn 7 isn't much a power level change but would be good to compensate for the fact that even when this goes off it is really slow. Energy is everywhere in standard where they are expecting this to be fine.
All of these bad Bobs udnerperform my expectations. I hope they bring back some Phyrexian rager style cards instead. Payoff for these is rarely more than one card anyway. (Which is the big difference from bob who nests me ~2 cards on average.)
I imagine if this card gave itself +1+1 counters in addition to the cards that it would be a ridiculous card in standard, especially if you can activate the trigger each turn instead of every other. I just find it hard to believe they would print a card that makes itself bigger, has evasion, and draws cards fairly effortlessly for two mana unless it was a mistake.
Tireless tracker was pretty close to what you just described and was honestly better than this card. I don't think it would have been unreasonable for this guy to grow himself.
At 720 I don't want this. I ALMOST want it but it's just not quite good enough.
Your manic vandal comparison is pretty on the nose. I cut vandal in my 720 a long time ago and haven't looked back and this is worse most of the time. Hitting multiple targets is nice but not really enough and no recurring nightmare shenanigans makes it even less appealing.
Doesn't seem great to me. Certainly doesn't feel better than tracker. Tracker's stats are good on their own plus it draws you cards. That much better than a little acceleration.
It's funny, metamind, while I agree with you, your argument against this card actually made me want to try it lol. Specifically the part about stifle not being played. That's true. Stifle on its own is not worth the slot in cube. But it is a relevant effect and will occasionally be backbreaking. But the occasionally part is why Stifle isn't played. This is a card that will be a counterspell 80% of the time, but having the Stifle option could be huge the few times that you need it and there isn't another place in most cubes where you can get that option.
How often do you actually want to tick your planeswalker down to crew this thing? In my experience, if you're ticking a planeswalker down, you're generally doing it to either get serious value or you're forced to do it out of necessity. If you're ticking your planeswalker up, you're often banking loyalty to reuse a minus ability (ajani vengeant, Jace beleren) or you're shooting for an ultimate. I'm sure there would be times when I would be fine with using loyalty to crew but I can't envision a scenario where that would be the actual game plan.
But more on topic, they're not going to move away from standard promos because they think that printing standard legal promos is more appealing to newer players. And they're probably right. They have started printing a couple of non-standard promos a year and I think that's great. It's also as much non-standard fnm promos as we are likely to see for the foreseeable future.
I do agree that ash Barrens could be a solid promo though.
Huh. TIL. Thank you for setting me straight.
This is not correct. +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters dont just cancel each other, they actually remove each other from whatever permanent they're on so giving a -1/-1 counter to an undying creature will in fact bring it back with a +1/+1 counter again.
Tireless tracker was pretty close to what you just described and was honestly better than this card. I don't think it would have been unreasonable for this guy to grow himself.
At 720 I don't want this. I ALMOST want it but it's just not quite good enough.
I do agree that ash Barrens could be a solid promo though.