Both Swords are amazing against control. U/B has no way to interact with equipment. In white-based decks, every O Ring pointed at a sword is one that isn't on a titan; every artifact destruction spell that hits a sword is one that doesn't hit inkmoth later. Swords help to give you an extra out if you've run out of steam.
You can Pod away emissary for exarch, untap pod, pod away exarch for a 4 drop, all in the same turn. He gets sick with sun titan too.
Didn't think about wing splicer. The only other 4 drops I saw as worthwhile on gatherer are
glimmerpoint stag - which might not do anything on his own
darkslick drake - better defender than solemn but overall I wouldn't run him
mausoleum guard - he's only cool with pod into geist-honored monk. I have to resist my cool-stuff urge.
Hero of Bladehold - stops pod chains but wins games.....
I've been having some fun with this version. I Basically took all the superfriends and shoved them into Bant Pod, then streamlined the creature list so that it could play like G/W midrange if you don't draw pod.
Mausoleum Guard could probably be something better for when you don't have a pod, but he's the best thing to pod away for GHM
Sideboard can be a toolbox of singletons or more concentrated responses, but I like the way the MD plays without all the clutter. Stonehorn against U/B control or spellskite against Township always plays to me like bad preboarding.
As mentioned before, Leonin Arbiter seems to be a really good choice ! Rampant growth, green zenith, titan, sad robot, emissary... not to mention that it's interact with ghost quarter very well.
Well the arbiter is easily shut down by slaggstorm and beast within, but by playing smartly around, can give the tempo needed.
Unless you can get it out before their turn 2, Leonin Arbiter isn't enough to waste a sideboard slot on. If you lose G1 and go first, and manage to get it out before they can cast their turn 2 search, you stalled for 2 turns or until they draw beast within or slagstorm (if they have a hand full of ramp). If you don't get it out before they cast their turn 2 ramp spell, they can just untap, play a land and have 4 mana on turn 3 to play around him. And that only really stops 3 of their cards for 2 turns. it doesn't shut down Thruns or Garruks. They can still attack you with inkmoths and they can still play their chumps, even if they have to wait to search with them.
I remember trying it out last season against Valakut when SoM first came out. If its ability triggered on each search, it would be playable.
Despise is pretty sick against this deck, as well as being a good card in general. Despise > Snapcaster (if you're playing him) > Despise wrecks face against midrange like this and pod, and it works against aggro decks too, if they still have a hand by turn 3.
I'm giving this deck a second look after its recent results. I've been playing Kuldotha red for the past 2 months, and I think there are some cards in kuldotha red that might have a home in this deck (aside from goblin guide and lightning bolt).
What are your thoughts on Molten-tail Masticore? This guy doesn't fit into every deck, but decks with more than 20 creatures and a low mana curve really help him shine. If you play him right he's nearly unkillable, and turns all of your earlier creatures who've bit the dust another use. <3 MtM
Another card I think deserves a spot that comes straight from Kuldotha red is Smoldering Spires. Glancing over the forum so far I see that for game 2, many players have either brave the elements or emerge unscathed to force damage through. When the dominant decks in the format are Valakut and Control, being able to get past their overgrown battlements, wall of omens, and calcite snappers is usually more damage than teetering peaks, which will usually get blocked anyway. When I have to play an effect at sorcery speed, I like one that my opponent has a harder time dealing with. I would either replace teetering peaks with smoldering spires or do a 1-1 split.
Again coming from a background as a Kuldotha player, why not play Goblin Bushwhacker and Devastating Summons? In the few games I have played with the deck, I usually hate the fact that the deck NEEDS to play at least 23 (and usually 24-25) lands, and while lands are never a dead draw in this deck, if the deck is stalled into late game by the rampant control decks in the format, drawing lands while you're sitting on 5+ seems like a waste. Even more so than in Kuldotha red, I feel Devastating Summons is an amazing fit in this deck because of its high land count, which help it easily recover, and the low mana curve, which is just about the same as kuldotha red.
Even when Devastating Summons doesn't come up, Goblin Bushwhacker is incredible. A few games I had 2 creatures out (let's say steppe lynx and goblin guide) on turn 3. I can play steppe lynx, pop a fetch to get RR, play bushwhacker. Not only is that 7 damage more that you couldn't do without him, but if you played t1 lynx t2 guide swing 6, that bushwhacker just allowed you to deal 21 damage by turn 3. I've seen some complaints about hitting RR, but in a deck that needs to hit a land every turn and has 8 red fetchlands and 7-8 actual red-producing lands, it's not too much of a stretch to hit him, especially considering that he's a late game play (well, late game for this deck).
P.S. While I haven't thought much about the Sideboard, Perilous Myr is great against Kor Firewalker and provides a nice little shock against pyroclasm, and I think he deserves a spot if Firewalker is in your meta. Kor Firewalker himself is great against other aggro decks, esp red ones herp derp. While I like the idea of siding out all red creatures and going for Brave the Elements, it is anti-synergistic with your firewalker and the fact that my list only has 8 white creatures. Sylvok Lifestaff might make an appearance against aggro, Refraction Trap for pyroclasm, Ricochet Trap for mana leak, maybe 1 more masticore in sb for control, and I do like Emerge Unscathed due to its versatility. Just spouting ideas here.
You're posting in the wrong thread. This thread is "Arid Mesa/Scalding Tarn - Do they belong in a mono-Red deck?" You just agreed with me that if you have landfall triggers you should play fetchlands. If you're in the RDW forums I can only assume that you're playing RDW. If you built your deck right you should be playing landfall triggers (fetchlands), in which case you should go beat this argument about loss of life to death somewhere else.
In a deck with none of these things, where the fetches do nothing but this your deck, is the case where that model applies
What RDW deck are you playing, that has none of these? You know you're in the RDW Forums? What is this I don't even...
I think we're talking about very different decklists. There seem to be 3 different versions of RDW being played, and fetchlands can't be justified in one of them.
In metal red goblins, where my only endgame is MtM and Chimeric Mass, your opponent is almost always on a 4 turn clock, or you kept a weak hand. Even when you play expecting to go to late game, what matchups are you so afraid of that you are unwilling to take advantage of 1 life lost per turn max? I play Adventuring Gear to ensure fetches have some use in my build - the alternatives, darksteel axe and trusty machete, cost 1 more to equip and do not help you more in late game - but even if you don't, building your deck with the intention of going to turn 6+ seems bad; you will get outclassed card for card, and every rip is worth less than your opponent's even if you fetch out lands for that .01 advantage.
In midrange red, you should be playing at least plated geopede, if not searing blaze and geopede. Not playing him because you are afraid of trading 1 life of yours for 2 of your opponents, or because your statistics argue against it, is wrong. The decks that run Kargan Dragonlord and Koth have mid and late game potential, so that 1 life might become relevent in the course of a game, but thinning your deck even slightly while adding 2 points of damage to cards that are nearly worthless without it is the only way to make them relevant late game, if you have to take a game that far.
In big red, where you hope to resolve wurmcoil engine and possibly inferno titan or hellkite charger, that life is relevant. I can't pretend that decks built this way have much hope of getting a turn 4 win like the first 2. I would never put fetches into mono-red big mana, and I would never argue that it's useful to.
I know I'm getting off topic, bringing in specific card and deck cases to talk about magic theory, but magic theory is only useful if it can help you win games, and the original topic asked why to play fetches in RDW. Your life total is a resource, especially for Red Deck Wins, and not taking advantage of it will help your opponent win more than helping you. I'm not talking to the people who think teetering peaks and smoldering spires can be fetched.
I was drunk last night when I posted about Thawing Glaciers Regardless, it is an example of how deckthinning can increase your topdecking power. It was a control deck that wanted to go to late game, so it's probably not a good example of why to play fetches in Red Deck Wins, but it does exist.
Main Deck
# Name Expansion
6 Island Fifth Edition
6 Mountain Fifth Edition
4 Plain Fifth Edition
1 City of Brass Fifth Edition
4 Thawing Glaciers Aliances
1 Undiscovered Paradise Visions
4 Impulse Visions
4 Counterspell Fifth Edition
4 Force of Will Alliances
4 Wildfire Emisary Mirage
4 Incenerate Fifth Edition
2 Hammer of Borgarden Mirage
1 Pillage Aliances
2 Disintegrate Fifth Edition
4 Swords to Plowshares Ice Age
3 Abeyance Weatherlight
2 Disenchant Fifth Edition
4 Frenetic Efreet Mirage
Sideboard
1 Kjeldoran Outpost Aliances
2 Political Trickery Mirage
3 Pyroblast Mirage
2 Earthquake Fifth Edition
2 CoP: Black Fifth Edition
3 CoP: Red Fifth Edition
2 Disenchant Fifth Edition
If you're reading this forum, either you're trolling or you're playing Red Deck Wins. Do you think that 4 life you paid to win by turn 4 is really going to come back to haunt you?
In a control match - where you've already won (if you haven't, you have half a dozen chances to sling a burn spell before they kill you).
ramp match - where if you don't kill them before they go off they will do more damage than is necessary to kill you even if you didn't play them.
mirror match - where matches are either decided by who went first or who devoted more sideboard cards to dragon's claw.
Any advantage is an advantage worth taking. What else are you using your life for?
I'm a new poster, so please move this if I posted in the wrong spot.
I saw Elspeth and Venser on the spoiler list and noticed that landfall works great with both of them. Venser obviously works because of his ability to create landfall, and Elspeth because of her ability to interact well with many of the finishers that landfall has to offer: Rampaging Baloths, Emeria Angel, and Avenger of Zendikar jump to mind. Add big Jace because we're in his colors and he's an auto-include.
Any comments or suggestions are welcome. There is so much more that the community can do with this idea than I can alone. A discussion over whether titans belong, which landfall creature is the best finisher, whether the walls (overgrown battlement and wall of omens) are necessary against RDW and Elves, and many other questions I probably didn't think about.
Your list is short 4 Preordain If you have the first turn blue often enough to support it.
JtMS isn't just good because of his abilities either; keeping another Jace off the field is worth not digging 3 cards deeper a lot of times - those 4 mana leak probably won't save you from some mind sculpting, especially if you're spending the first few turns ramping.
If you have the first turn blue often enough to support it.
Didn't think about wing splicer.
glimmerpoint stag - which might not do anything on his own
darkslick drake - better defender than solemn but overall I wouldn't run him
mausoleum guard - he's only cool with pod into geist-honored monk. I have to resist my cool-stuff urge.
Hero of Bladehold - stops pod chains but wins games.....
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Seachrome Coast
6 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Viridian Emissary
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Blade Splicer
1 Deceiver Exarch
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Wing Splicer
1 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Geist-Honored Monk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Sun Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Birthing Pod
3 Garruk Relentless
2 Gideon Jura
2 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Elspeth Tirel
Thoughts?
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Seachrome Coast
7 Forest
2 Plains
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Viridian Emissary
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Blade Splicer
1 Deceiver Exarch
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Mausoleum Guard
2 Geist-Honored Monk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Sun Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Birthing Pod
3 Garruk Relentless
2 Gideon Jura
2 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Elspeth Tirel
I've been having some fun with this version. I Basically took all the superfriends and shoved them into Bant Pod, then streamlined the creature list so that it could play like G/W midrange if you don't draw pod.
Mausoleum Guard could probably be something better for when you don't have a pod, but he's the best thing to pod away for GHM
Sideboard can be a toolbox of singletons or more concentrated responses, but I like the way the MD plays without all the clutter. Stonehorn against U/B control or spellskite against Township always plays to me like bad preboarding.
Unless you can get it out before their turn 2, Leonin Arbiter isn't enough to waste a sideboard slot on. If you lose G1 and go first, and manage to get it out before they can cast their turn 2 search, you stalled for 2 turns or until they draw beast within or slagstorm (if they have a hand full of ramp). If you don't get it out before they cast their turn 2 ramp spell, they can just untap, play a land and have 4 mana on turn 3 to play around him. And that only really stops 3 of their cards for 2 turns. it doesn't shut down Thruns or Garruks. They can still attack you with inkmoths and they can still play their chumps, even if they have to wait to search with them.
I remember trying it out last season against Valakut when SoM first came out. If its ability triggered on each search, it would be playable.
Despise is pretty sick against this deck, as well as being a good card in general. Despise > Snapcaster (if you're playing him) > Despise wrecks face against midrange like this and pod, and it works against aggro decks too, if they still have a hand by turn 3.
What are your thoughts on Molten-tail Masticore? This guy doesn't fit into every deck, but decks with more than 20 creatures and a low mana curve really help him shine. If you play him right he's nearly unkillable, and turns all of your earlier creatures who've bit the dust another use. <3 MtM
Another card I think deserves a spot that comes straight from Kuldotha red is Smoldering Spires. Glancing over the forum so far I see that for game 2, many players have either brave the elements or emerge unscathed to force damage through. When the dominant decks in the format are Valakut and Control, being able to get past their overgrown battlements, wall of omens, and calcite snappers is usually more damage than teetering peaks, which will usually get blocked anyway. When I have to play an effect at sorcery speed, I like one that my opponent has a harder time dealing with. I would either replace teetering peaks with smoldering spires or do a 1-1 split.
Again coming from a background as a Kuldotha player, why not play Goblin Bushwhacker and Devastating Summons? In the few games I have played with the deck, I usually hate the fact that the deck NEEDS to play at least 23 (and usually 24-25) lands, and while lands are never a dead draw in this deck, if the deck is stalled into late game by the rampant control decks in the format, drawing lands while you're sitting on 5+ seems like a waste. Even more so than in Kuldotha red, I feel Devastating Summons is an amazing fit in this deck because of its high land count, which help it easily recover, and the low mana curve, which is just about the same as kuldotha red.
Even when Devastating Summons doesn't come up, Goblin Bushwhacker is incredible. A few games I had 2 creatures out (let's say steppe lynx and goblin guide) on turn 3. I can play steppe lynx, pop a fetch to get RR, play bushwhacker. Not only is that 7 damage more that you couldn't do without him, but if you played t1 lynx t2 guide swing 6, that bushwhacker just allowed you to deal 21 damage by turn 3. I've seen some complaints about hitting RR, but in a deck that needs to hit a land every turn and has 8 red fetchlands and 7-8 actual red-producing lands, it's not too much of a stretch to hit him, especially considering that he's a late game play (well, late game for this deck).
Sorry for the wall of text. Lmk your thoughts.
Potential Decklist
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Marsh Flats
4 Plains
2 Smoldering Spires
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Plated Geopede
3 Goblin Bushwhacker
2 Kor Skyfisher
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Spikeshot Elder
1 Molten-tail Masticore
2 Burst Lightning
2 Journey to Nowhere
2 Devastating Summons
3 Adventuring Gear
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Basilisk Collar
P.S. While I haven't thought much about the Sideboard, Perilous Myr is great against Kor Firewalker and provides a nice little shock against pyroclasm, and I think he deserves a spot if Firewalker is in your meta. Kor Firewalker himself is great against other aggro decks, esp red ones herp derp. While I like the idea of siding out all red creatures and going for Brave the Elements, it is anti-synergistic with your firewalker and the fact that my list only has 8 white creatures. Sylvok Lifestaff might make an appearance against aggro, Refraction Trap for pyroclasm, Ricochet Trap for mana leak, maybe 1 more masticore in sb for control, and I do like Emerge Unscathed due to its versatility. Just spouting ideas here.
What RDW deck are you playing, that has none of these? You know you're in the RDW Forums? What is this I don't even...
In metal red goblins, where my only endgame is MtM and Chimeric Mass, your opponent is almost always on a 4 turn clock, or you kept a weak hand. Even when you play expecting to go to late game, what matchups are you so afraid of that you are unwilling to take advantage of 1 life lost per turn max? I play Adventuring Gear to ensure fetches have some use in my build - the alternatives, darksteel axe and trusty machete, cost 1 more to equip and do not help you more in late game - but even if you don't, building your deck with the intention of going to turn 6+ seems bad; you will get outclassed card for card, and every rip is worth less than your opponent's even if you fetch out lands for that .01 advantage.
In midrange red, you should be playing at least plated geopede, if not searing blaze and geopede. Not playing him because you are afraid of trading 1 life of yours for 2 of your opponents, or because your statistics argue against it, is wrong. The decks that run Kargan Dragonlord and Koth have mid and late game potential, so that 1 life might become relevent in the course of a game, but thinning your deck even slightly while adding 2 points of damage to cards that are nearly worthless without it is the only way to make them relevant late game, if you have to take a game that far.
In big red, where you hope to resolve wurmcoil engine and possibly inferno titan or hellkite charger, that life is relevant. I can't pretend that decks built this way have much hope of getting a turn 4 win like the first 2. I would never put fetches into mono-red big mana, and I would never argue that it's useful to.
I know I'm getting off topic, bringing in specific card and deck cases to talk about magic theory, but magic theory is only useful if it can help you win games, and the original topic asked why to play fetches in RDW. Your life total is a resource, especially for Red Deck Wins, and not taking advantage of it will help your opponent win more than helping you. I'm not talking to the people who think teetering peaks and smoldering spires can be fetched.
I was drunk last night when I posted about Thawing Glaciers
Hi Thawing Glaciers
Main Deck
# Name Expansion
6 Island Fifth Edition
6 Mountain Fifth Edition
4 Plain Fifth Edition
1 City of Brass Fifth Edition
4 Thawing Glaciers Aliances
1 Undiscovered Paradise Visions
4 Impulse Visions
4 Counterspell Fifth Edition
4 Force of Will Alliances
4 Wildfire Emisary Mirage
4 Incenerate Fifth Edition
2 Hammer of Borgarden Mirage
1 Pillage Aliances
2 Disintegrate Fifth Edition
4 Swords to Plowshares Ice Age
3 Abeyance Weatherlight
2 Disenchant Fifth Edition
4 Frenetic Efreet Mirage
Sideboard
1 Kjeldoran Outpost Aliances
2 Political Trickery Mirage
3 Pyroblast Mirage
2 Earthquake Fifth Edition
2 CoP: Black Fifth Edition
3 CoP: Red Fifth Edition
2 Disenchant Fifth Edition
If you're reading this forum, either you're trolling or you're playing Red Deck Wins. Do you think that 4 life you paid to win by turn 4 is really going to come back to haunt you?
In a control match - where you've already won (if you haven't, you have half a dozen chances to sling a burn spell before they kill you).
ramp match - where if you don't kill them before they go off they will do more damage than is necessary to kill you even if you didn't play them.
mirror match - where matches are either decided by who went first or who devoted more sideboard cards to dragon's claw.
Any advantage is an advantage worth taking. What else are you using your life for?
I saw Elspeth and Venser on the spoiler list and noticed that landfall works great with both of them. Venser obviously works because of his ability to create landfall, and Elspeth because of her ability to interact well with many of the finishers that landfall has to offer: Rampaging Baloths, Emeria Angel, and Avenger of Zendikar jump to mind. Add big Jace because we're in his colors and he's an auto-include.
Any comments or suggestions are welcome. There is so much more that the community can do with this idea than I can alone. A discussion over whether titans belong, which landfall creature is the best finisher, whether the walls (overgrown battlement and wall of omens) are necessary against RDW and Elves, and many other questions I probably didn't think about.
The list so far
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
1 Marsh Flats or Arid Mesa
7 Forest
2 Plains
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
2 Rampaging Baloths
4 Primeval Titan
1 Avenger of Zendikar
2 Overgrown Battlement
4 Preordain
2 Explore
4 Mana Leak
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Venser, the Sojourner
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Elspeth Tirel
SB
1 Ulamog
4 Flashfreeze
3 Negate
2 Perimeter Captain
3 Summoning Trap
2 Gaea's Revenge
Thank you