As for the ongoing Dack discussion, my deck runs him along with a suite of fetch lands, land destruction, and Crucible of Worlds. Dack's looting synergizes nicely there.
I like that Geralf & Gisa can play nicely together if you need them to. It's especially funny that Geralf stitches up a big zombie and then Gisa rips it apart to make an army. Oh you two.
I usually think of zombies as Grixis, but perhaps Sultai zombies (BUG) would be the best way to run these two together. You get the aforementioned Doubling Season as well as some ramp and Overrun effects. That was one of the problems I always had with Grixis zombie tribal: sometimes you'd build a board full of zombies but they just couldn't punch through effectively.
I went 2-2 yesterday choosing . My rares were Cruel Sadist in my seeded pack, Chief Engineer, 2 copies of Jalira, Master Polymorphist, Avacyn, Guardian Angel, and Garruk, Apex Predator. I decided to go B/G but my deck was very clumsy, with no 2 drops, no deathtouchers, and 3 Covenant of Blood to go with my other 7-drop, Garuuk. I did have 2 Elvish Mystic which was nice, as well as Ulcerate and Carrion Crow but the deck was just too expensive and other than a quick Crow I really couldn't pressure the board. My other colors offered no advantage either, and for a moment I pondered going B/U/G just to squeeze in a few extra low drops like a Jorubai Murk Lurker.
My 2nd round opponent chose and had a decent G/W deck with more than a few tricks. He beat me both games by convoking an early Siege Wurm and building off the resultant pressure. He saved his Wurm g1 from my Garruk with a Ranger's Guile and I just couldn't come back. I actually held on through both matches longer than I thought I deserved but it's hard to kill 5/5s or anything larger. Both games he exiled my Tormentor with Devouring Light.
A comment on Indulgent Tormentor: what a trap rare. This guy dies to everything, and to make matters worse my deck couldn't muster up a creature worth killing before Tormentor came down, so my opponents always had an appropriate removal spell saved for something like him. My 3rd round opponent was B/G and it was the same for him as well. We were both maindecking Plummet and neither of our Tormentors got to survive long enough to trigger. The times my Tormentor got to trigger against other opponents they just lost some life and promptly killed me a turn or two later lol. We were both super-slow and I managed to take this match on the back of Garruk.
My 4th round opponent was a nice guy - he was 0-3 and offered to concede so that at least 1 of us would get a prize (2-2 got 1 pack). That was real nice of him so I offered to split the value if we cracked a nice rare. We played for fun and he had what seemed like a decent B/R deck (chose ). His rares were Soul of Innistrad, Goblin Kaboomist, and Burning Anger to go with several deathtouchers. I managed to win 1 game with Crow beats and a Covenant of Blood to the dome but his Soul & Siege Dragon were too much for my deck to deal with in the other 2. Our 1 prize pack had Jace, the Living Guildpact so we split the $ value and both came away pretty happy, all things considered.
I think a better example would be the one at the top of this page, where someone had an army of tokens, but Moat was stopping them. Another example might be when someone drops a Disk or Oblivion Stone, but can't activate it this turn, while you currently have a dominating board position. Neither of those scenarios come up enough to warrant not running it by any means, and it's still a very good removal spell, but it is important to keep in mind the limitations that it works under. Being able to read your other players well enough to know when these sorts of scenarios are likely to come up will help keep you from wasting your judgement, is all.
Needless to say I was thinking about possible outs, and Council's Judgment popped into my mind. My initial idea would be to vote Roil Elemental so I'd reclaim my 3 creatures & prevent Roil from coming back due to Horde. The thing is, a vote in my favor would give me back those 3 mana divas, so the vote might actually end up exiling the Muse or even worse, multiple divas. I don't control them so they'd be valid choices.
In that situation I started thinking I should run a few more Wraths, but I still like the potential power of Council's Judgment. Cards that don't have such straight-forward results are interesting, especially ones whose results don't hinge on pure chaos but instead on measured aims and predictions.
Just a few nights ago one of my friends had Iona equipped with Lightning Greaves (naming green) and Avacyn on the board. It was just me (Selvala), him, and a 3rd buddy (Horde of Notions) left. I was glad to topdeck Council's Judgment in that situation.
Another time during a 4-player game I chose a permanent controlled by the next player in rotation. He then chose a permanent controlled by the next player. That player then chose a permanent controlled by the 4th player. The 4th player then chose another permanent controlled by player 2 and it was a 4-for-1. Not bad.
Those are my only experiences with it so far, but I've been very pleased. Voting is fun IMO, and a 3-mana sorcery that exiles, doesn't target, and can potentially kill several permanents is good in my book.
I'm pretty sure that the rules insert that came with the first set of Commander decks describes the mulligan rules in that fashion. That's how we've been playing it for a long time, and how almost everyone at my FLGS does it as well. Some people are used to different rules, like putting all the mulliganed cards on the bottom instead of shuffling as a time-saver.
Went and found on of them and opened it up. (Like the wrapping of the rues insert) and nope there is nothing about the mulligan on the commander sheet, and the other sheet is traditional magic rules.)
Hmmm, wonder where I remember it from then. You're talking about the rules from the 2011 decks btw, not 2013 right?
I think the veil would be a decent include in super friends decks without only using it as a combo piece, but it's basically terrible everywhere else. Even in the super friends decks, it is not going to be that powerful simply because of the mana cost (essentially 8 to use right away - and all you get is extra planeswalker abilities). I think it is similar to extra attack steps - it's super powerful when it works, but without enough useful creatures, it is not that good. There's ways to possibly get infinite attack steps, but they are hardly the most efficient combos.
Agreed. Even something as simple as the one-time investment to cast Doubling Season in a Superfriends deck can seem bad in certain situations. The eventual payoff can be absurd, but it basically does nothing otherwise, and either you or the enchantment become a big target. Veil is even costlier than that, and I think most players will perceive it as a similar kind of threat.
Even still, if you can get set up with, say, three PWs and one Veil activation a turn I think you're sufficiently living the dream.
If someone tries to interrupt your Chain Veil abuse with instant-speed removal you can always respond appropriately, and all the activations you put on the stack will still resolve and be tracked. I'm not sure what the safest order to do things would be - if you're using things like Rings of Brighthearth and Strionic Resonator it's probably wise to use your PWs as soon as the stack clears before moving on to more Veil abuse. It's costly, and if you stack up a bunch of Veil activations before digging into your PWs someone could overload Cyclonic Rift or Beast Within your key PW. Sure they could do it anyway at any time, but you might as well try to get maximum value up front before someone goes for disruption.
I think Gaka accurately analyzed the Veil's worth. It's a clunky artifact with lots of clunky combo potential, but on the surface it seems fun and flavorful. If you're going to run Superfriends EDH I see no reason not to run the Veil, and some cards that you'll already likely be running will have some decent synergy with it - the aforementioned Rings/Resonator duo, as well as Tezz 1.0.
I still dont get it. Aren't all planeswalkers abilities used as sorcery?
So if you stack infinite The Chain Veil, and then you use some planeswalker, wouldn't all the stacks just dissapear?
It appears that each Chain Veil activation creates a condition that persists until EOT. For each activation you get an additional use out of your Planeswalkers, and they stack despite the ability's slightly-questionable wording. For reference:
Tabak (rules manager) regarding Chain Veil - "From the upcoming M15 Release Notes: Each additional time The Chain Veil’s last ability resolves will allow you to activate a loyalty ability of each planeswalker you control an additional time. For example, if you activate The Chain Veil’s last ability, untap it, then activate it again, you can activate a loyalty ability of a planeswalker you control three times that turn."
I didn't know it was written anywhere. I thought it was just a common house rule or something. That makes a lot of sense, then. Can't blame people if they read that that's how it is supposed to work. I still don't like being able to look at that much of the deck, though :/
I throw away all those folded-up rules inserts but I vividly remember reading the ones that came with the first Commander decks and learning about free partials from there. I don't think the new Commander deck rules inserts have the same mulligan rules. If anyone saved these things I'd like to hear if I'm remembering correctly or not.
I'm pretty sure that the rules insert that came with the first set of Commander decks describes the mulligan rules in that fashion. That's how we've been playing it for a long time, and how almost everyone at my FLGS does it as well. Some people are used to different rules, like putting all the mulliganed cards on the bottom instead of shuffling as a time-saver.
The only time I've seen this card in play is from someone's Krenko, Mob Boss deck at my FLGS. It was pretty disgusting, but fair. He got to activate it 2 or 3 times before everyone at the table took him out. Each time he activated it the damage went to someone's dome so he had to go.
Somehow I don't think a guy with a sling really fits the flavor of the spell. Maybe the sling bullet is magical, and if it gets destroyed the creature it sealed away is released? Seems a big miss in any case.
So uhh... I guess in EDH with Doubling Season this Jace would be kinda fun in a trololo sort of way? Just the pits otherwise, unless you have a serious graveyard theme. I'm sad that they wasted such a grand name on these abilities. It should really be named Jace the Don't Make Me Get Off This Couch.
I've been away for a few sets - what's the flavor fail here?
As for the ongoing Dack discussion, my deck runs him along with a suite of fetch lands, land destruction, and Crucible of Worlds. Dack's looting synergizes nicely there.
I usually think of zombies as Grixis, but perhaps Sultai zombies (BUG) would be the best way to run these two together. You get the aforementioned Doubling Season as well as some ramp and Overrun effects. That was one of the problems I always had with Grixis zombie tribal: sometimes you'd build a board full of zombies but they just couldn't punch through effectively.
My 1st round opponent chose
My 2nd round opponent chose
A comment on Indulgent Tormentor: what a trap rare. This guy dies to everything, and to make matters worse my deck couldn't muster up a creature worth killing before Tormentor came down, so my opponents always had an appropriate removal spell saved for something like him. My 3rd round opponent was B/G and it was the same for him as well. We were both maindecking Plummet and neither of our Tormentors got to survive long enough to trigger. The times my Tormentor got to trigger against other opponents they just lost some life and promptly killed me a turn or two later lol. We were both super-slow and I managed to take this match on the back of Garruk.
My 4th round opponent was a nice guy - he was 0-3 and offered to concede so that at least 1 of us would get a prize (2-2 got 1 pack). That was real nice of him so I offered to split the value if we cracked a nice rare. We played for fun and he had what seemed like a decent B/R deck (chose
So true. A buddy of mine had stolen my Seedborn Muse with a Roil Elemental. The problem was that he was playing Horde of Notions and could loop Fertilid from his graveyard every untap. To make matters worse he had stolen my Oracle of Mul Daya AND Azusa, Lost But Seeking.
Needless to say I was thinking about possible outs, and Council's Judgment popped into my mind. My initial idea would be to vote Roil Elemental so I'd reclaim my 3 creatures & prevent Roil from coming back due to Horde. The thing is, a vote in my favor would give me back those 3 mana divas, so the vote might actually end up exiling the Muse or even worse, multiple divas. I don't control them so they'd be valid choices.
In that situation I started thinking I should run a few more Wraths, but I still like the potential power of Council's Judgment. Cards that don't have such straight-forward results are interesting, especially ones whose results don't hinge on pure chaos but instead on measured aims and predictions.
Another time during a 4-player game I chose a permanent controlled by the next player in rotation. He then chose a permanent controlled by the next player. That player then chose a permanent controlled by the 4th player. The 4th player then chose another permanent controlled by player 2 and it was a 4-for-1. Not bad.
Those are my only experiences with it so far, but I've been very pleased. Voting is fun IMO, and a 3-mana sorcery that exiles, doesn't target, and can potentially kill several permanents is good in my book.
Hmmm, wonder where I remember it from then. You're talking about the rules from the 2011 decks btw, not 2013 right?
Agreed. Even something as simple as the one-time investment to cast Doubling Season in a Superfriends deck can seem bad in certain situations. The eventual payoff can be absurd, but it basically does nothing otherwise, and either you or the enchantment become a big target. Veil is even costlier than that, and I think most players will perceive it as a similar kind of threat.
Even still, if you can get set up with, say, three PWs and one Veil activation a turn I think you're sufficiently living the dream.
I think Gaka accurately analyzed the Veil's worth. It's a clunky artifact with lots of clunky combo potential, but on the surface it seems fun and flavorful. If you're going to run Superfriends EDH I see no reason not to run the Veil, and some cards that you'll already likely be running will have some decent synergy with it - the aforementioned Rings/Resonator duo, as well as Tezz 1.0.
It appears that each Chain Veil activation creates a condition that persists until EOT. For each activation you get an additional use out of your Planeswalkers, and they stack despite the ability's slightly-questionable wording. For reference:
~~~
But you could, and it would work just fine.
I throw away all those folded-up rules inserts but I vividly remember reading the ones that came with the first Commander decks and learning about free partials from there. I don't think the new Commander deck rules inserts have the same mulligan rules. If anyone saved these things I'd like to hear if I'm remembering correctly or not.
Haha, oh wow. I've only ever given the card a passing glance and never noticed the HUGE SLING in the foreground.