A friend of mine plays 4C Gifts and it can be an absolute monster if built and tailored to the meta correctly. I highly recommend the deck if you're not afraid of decision trees and control.
LANDS:
-I should not have to explain Tron
-4 Breeding Pool and 2 Yavimaya Coast: Breeding Pools hurt us once for 2 (or not at all if coming down turn 1), while Coasts hurt us as we need them. Coasts do not have basic land types so they're safe from Sundering Titan, but I have lost a game at 1 life because I did not have a second (third?) blue source to cast Evacuation, so your mileage may vary. I like the 4-2 split, but if you're going heavier on artifacts similar to G-base Tron, I could see 3-3 or even 2-4.
-2 Islands and 1 Forest: because opposing Ghost Quarters and Path to Exiles are most definitely a thing, also helps if you need colors and don't want to pay life for them God forbid you need to Map for a basic in dire circumstances. Also ramped by Solemn Simulacrum.
-1 Ghost Quarter: was originally Eye of Ugin, but I got tired of needing a land and drawing an Eye... GQ helps in any variant of the Tron mirror, and can potentially lead to interesting situations with Loam
-1 Academy Ruins: Mindslaver aside, this can recur Maps to assemble Tron, most of our fatties to replay, and soft-lock with Oblivion Stone.
SPELLS:
-Repeal and Condescend are U-Tron control staples. I run a set of each because they help us interact with the opponent and slow them down while giving us a bit of an advantage
-Remands are excellent for any deck that wants to assemble specific cards, delay the opponent, and/or push into the lategame. Oh, and it draws us a card, too.
-Explores are in because I wanted to use some sort of land acceleration from G, and it felt odd if the only reason the deck is green is for Loam and some cards in the side. While I'm a fan of them in theory, I could see myself dropping 1 in favor of something else, as they use a color and aren't guaranteed to get you anything useful - though they DO enable a turn 3 Sundering Titan, so that's something to keep in mind.
-I feel like I've said enough about Gifts in my earlier post, so I don't want to sound like a total fanboy (even though I probably am)
-Loam already discussed above
-Cyclonic Rift and Evacuation are there primarily for the "Gifts into 3 wipes" scenario so I always get one should I need one, but they are ever so slightly different: Rift will bounce everything but not manlands (!) while Evac bounces manlands but not the rest of their board which may include Blood Moon or Cranial Plating or planeswalkers or etc. Rift can also be used as emergency single-target bounce, while Evac cannot
-Fabricate is one that used to be in the board, and then crawled into the main and never left. It's a shame I didn't realize it sooner, but just about everything in the deck revolves around artifacts for it to fetch: Need a land? Expedition Map. Need a wipe? Oblivion Stone. Need a threat? Take your pick (except the Eldrazi). As mentioned in my previous comment, a turn 4 Tron + blue source Fabricates and plays Batterskull, which is often a powerplay.
THREATS:
-Flying death squid is flying death squid.
-Flying death squid's little cousin is primarily here because (A) we can cast him a good chunk of the time, and (B) because he reanimates through countermagic and (C) in a Gifts package of at least one other creature threat, it becomes a difficult choice for the enemy.
-Giant Metal Worm is also pretty self-explanatory at this point
-Batterskull, while on the slightly smaller end, is there for the purposes of staving off aggro and gaining us some life, but also because it is notoriously difficult to deal with (provided we have mana open) through its self-bouncing. If the Germ dies, just stick it onto something else and enjoy.
-Sundering Titan has the ability to win games by himself, or be nigh-irrelevant. The more shocks your opponents play, the better he gets, and best of all, he triggers again when the opponent decides they can't handle the 7/10 to take more of their lands away. I definitely would not leave home without one main, but he is generally the first thing to be sided out vs monocolor or Affinity.
-Inkwell Leviathan has the magic number 7 colorless in his mana cost, has two forms of evasion, and SHROUD. For the opponent, that brings a world of pain. For us, we're sad that we can't equip Batterskull to it.
SB:
-Aetherize against heavy aggro, like zoo or Affinity and Twin
-Squelch.. hurts just about anything. Stops a 'walker for a turn, stops fetches, stops manlands, stops Twin. And it draws us a card.
-Nature's Claim deals with hate cards of all colors. Blood Moon, Spreading Seas, Stony Silence, Choke are all valid targets, and bonus points vs Affinity
-Creeping Corrosion ... have you noticed I want to be prepared vs Affinity?
-Sundering Titans I've been a huge, huge fan of since I started the deck, and his ability to single-handedly end games just by hitting the board is undeniable. But 3 in the 75 can feel like a lot, even for a really good hitter, so I could see going down to 1 main 1 SB if you need to open some room.
-Tormod's Crypt is Fabricateable and gives us some level of protection against the occasional graveyard deck
-Platinum Emperion is my personal choice over Platinum Angel. They do have their differences, but what turns me off the Angel is the "bring you down to negative life, kill Angel" plan, while the Emperion keeps you alive and needs to be dealt with before anything else can hurt you. Having said that, Angel is probably the better choice in an Infect meta, but Emperion is definitely an alternative if Infect is not a concern for you.
-Thragtusk: yadda yadda, aggro, lifegain, leaves a body when dies.
-Gaea's Revenge is our universal answer to control. It can't be countered, can't be target-bounced, can't be Pathed, Bolted, and so on. It also has haste and kills them in 2-3 hits. For bonus points, you could try Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur in this spot, but I find Revenge to be much more threatening (pun intended)
-Negate is an afterthought because I had one spot left, I used to run 2 in here but 1 got removed for something else. Has its relevant matchups, but is totally removable for some secret tech
-Speaking of secret tech, my newest addition is Commandeer, primarily to deal with Gr Tron that assembles a lot quicker than this one does and doesn't really care about Condescends. Commandeer is to steal their Karn, or their Ugin, or their Oblivion Stone, or even a clutch Ancient Stirrings or Sylvan Scrying. Has yet to be tested, but I will report as soon as I have info on it.
Hello, and welcome to my latest Modern brainchild. This'll start off just as an idea but will hopefully develop into a deck and maybe even a Feature! God forbid, this will actually pick up somewhere and actually move up a forum, which might just make me cry with joy. This is an idea based on an existing draft of a deck I had, just trying to give a nifty card a home and maybe it'll do better in a UR control shell. This is by no means a comprehensive list (unless a list of ideas counts?) so any and all constructive criticism is requested and welcome. Ideally, there would be a "slightly budgety" and a "bank account 0" version where you folks and your fancy Scalding Tarns and Snapcaster Mages can pick this up and double the dollar value of the deck and maybe actually win tournaments with this or something. I'm just a brewer, doing this for fun and trying to make something new and interesting to contribute to the community, the format, and the game.
Less talk, more magic! Welcome to Bomb Control! Tick
At its core, this would play as a UR Control list, which means we can start with a core of
Those of you with Tarns, Snaps, Cryptics and Cliques already have extra lines to this deck built, but for those of us that do not, we can start with this. Yes, Rune Snag is slightly more difficult to find than Leaks, but I feel like it is better for those of us without Snaps, as beyond the first they scale with the game and aren't "dead" in the late game. Technically Leaks aren't dead either, but lategame "Pay 3" is easier to punch a spell through than "Pay 4" or "Pay 6". Those with Snaps probably want the Leaks so you can flash them back without fear. This may also want some amount of Izzet Charm, but this is just me getting ideas out there for you guys to help add to.
Tick
We now have an early game, and control needs a way to win. You know what's fun? Big things that have a lot of the number 6 on them.
At this point you're probably thinking, "but so far this just looks like a terrible Twin deck. Where's the fun in making a good deck bad?" You've noticed the Sentinel, yes? Confused as to why he's even being considered, yes? Well, let me drop a few more to confuse you even more.
This puts us at 54 cards. Six away from blowing up Tolaria at your LGS. I will be adding more about rationale and why Obliterate, but I just wanted to get this out there before I forget and hopefully this piques someone's interest to embark on a creative collaboration with myself on this.
Cheers, hope you enjoyed my half-sleeping rambling, and I will hopefully come back to this tomorrow morning and make this slightly more coherent.
FAQ:
Q: Is this viable?
A: I have no idea. I got the idea for this about an hour ago, and the list was made literally while I was typing this
Q: Ugh, you're terrible at control - you are totally missing [insert card/combo/synergy here]!
A: Yes, I haven't played UR control in Modern since ever. I fully expect that there are numerous issues with this list as it stands, but that's where I'm hoping some of you guys will see the reason in my madness and help me make this ever so slightly more playable. You get to play Obliterate!
Q: Damnit, you're terrible at building! What about how about replacing [Card X] with [completely superior Card Y]?
A: Building is exactly what the name suggests - you take something small and gradually put effort into it to turn it into something cute and adorable that explodes and can't be countered. There are some cards I'd be interested in testing out on purpose (Sentinel), some cards I'm aware of that auto-fill into the deck (Cryptic, Snapcaster, Tarn) that I'm not considering for the "base" list, and some that are personal pet cards (Obliterate).
I also play UG Tron, have been for almost a year now. My list was developed completely independently from this thread, which I will post in the morning tomorrow.
My variant on it builds on the U-base and adds green (as opposed to G-base with blue), and I will admit one of the major reasons is the Gifts+Loam interaction. I also apologize for wordiness because sleepy.
First, I will just say that Gifts can be ridiculous in any control build. I firmly believe that unless you have a very particular U-based build, it should contain at least some amounts of Gifts. I don't know whether to recommend Gifts to the G-base, just because between Stirrings and Scrying they already have a lot of dig to the point of not even needing more than 1 Gifts, if any.
What makes Gifts absolutely dumb is the inclusion of Life from the Loam. Loam on its own is an answer to the first obvious enemy of Tron - land "destruction" that isn't Sowing Salt or Blood Moon. Beyond rescuing from land destruction, it is also reusable with Dredge. If you run a single Ghost Quarter or Tec Edge for the mirror, it becomes that much stronger a tool. Which all sounds like a card to come out of SB in response to mirrors or anticipated LD.
The issue with Gifts is that your opponent can and will deny you crucial pieces. The issue with Loam is that it doesn't do anything except let you recover, so you never really want more than 1. You can kind of see what I'm getting at by now, yes?
Putting anything land-based and Loam into a Gifts package makes the choice pretty awkward for the opponent, since you technically always get what you want.
Tron + Loam finds you the full Tron if needed. If you already have some of it, grab Academy Ruins. Grab Wurmcoil Engine. Make it a pile where no matter what your opponent gives you, you still have access to everything.
Loam + Academy Ruins + Slaver + [missing Tron piece/Tower/Wurmcoil/O-Stone] can be a silly pile that doesn't really have a way out.
I am very very pro-Loam in my own list, but unless Gifts is there for abuse, it would probably stick in the board as a very potent recursive recovery tool.
Also, I've played around with threat density and identity in my list, and here's a [very] brief summary noting the ones that have not really been discussed:
- Sundering Titan can be silly and can win games on his own (note that if both island and forest need to hit own lands, you can point to the same Breeding Pool)
- Artisan of Kozilek is a minor Eldrazi that nobody really remembers after the Big 3, but we're probably still accelling to 9 (7 with the Eye), 10/9 annihilator 2 is still not a joke, and the reanimation ability is on-cast, bypassing most counterspells. For extra fun, include him in a Gifts package with 3 other fatties and laugh as an opponent tries to figure that pile out.
-Batterskull is still a strong t3 play, and with tron+U comes out t4 off Fabricate.
-Control matchup? We are in the colors and mana amounts to run two fun cards: Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur and Gaea's Revenge. I've been leaning more toward the latter as it is near-impossible to deal with well.
That's all for tonight, will come back to answer questions and post my current list in the morning.
Red tron without Through the Breach? That card can just give you free wins.
Effective use of Through the Breach would require a much greater threat density than what this deck wants to do, I think. Especially when it only really gives free wins when Emrakul jumps through, which would need 4 of him/her/it, and then 4 Breaches, and a bunch more dig to find them, and I feel like that becomes a completely different deck at that point. I could definitely see a BreachTron variant, and TtB is an excellent card, I just don't feel this is its home.
Why not just load up on the Wurmcoils? When you obliterate you leave behind two tokens and your opponents has no lands, which should seal up the game quickly.
You're right. There should be more Wurms. The list I put up is what I currently run on Cockatrice, which I try to match with my budget (or something more or less realistic). The Wurms would probably take over the Doom Engine slots, if I could afford them. Guess I should put up an "ideal" and "budgeted list" up there.
Herp derp, lame YuGiOh joke, I know, but it's the catchiest name for a deck utilizing the bomb of all bombs, the ultimate boardwipe, the largest nuke this side of Decree of Annihilation and Worldfire.
If you follow my latest posts at all, you know I am a huge fan of Tron. And not just the pre-established versions, I think there is so much more that Tron can do that just needs a bit of creativity and tinkering with to discover and put together. I currently have way more Tron ideas in my head than any sane person should, most likely not viable outside of casual games. Red being my favorite single color in magic, I felt that it didn't quite get the justice it merits from the KarnTron lists as being an auxiliary color for Pyroclasm and some other shenanigans out of the board, so mono-Red Tron was born.
The key with Tron is to find obscene things to do with colorless mana that can be aided by your colors in question. Green as a primary color gives you land searches through Sylvan Scrying and Ancient Stirrings. Blue gives you access to Academy Ruins and its interaction with Mindslaver requiring the Ruins and 12 mana.
What can Red do? It can throw damage straight at you with X-spells like Blaze or it can blowuptheworld.
This is the "ideal" list I would play if I could afford all of the pieces. The main things out of reach for me right now are the Wurmcoils, so this is the list I am actually playing:
Under construction But feel free to let me know what you think anyway
I've only had a few games with it, but I really enjoy the direction this is taking. I'll be working on this as time allows, but feel free to jump in and help out
The way Sundering Titan works is that on entry or leaving, you get to point at a Plains, an Island, a Swamp, a Mountain, and a Forest and blow them up. Since the only color you play is Black, then at worst you lose a Swamp. At best, you're up against BGW and the Swamp you choose is their Overgrown Tomb. With Urborg, you get bonus points against non-Black decks, because vs URW they suddenly have Islands, Mountains, Plains AND Swamps, so if you make the correct calls, it blows up up to four lands and doesn't touch your own.
Sure, the Mirror package is a bit cute. But Mirror can be a legit card even without Worst Fears. How about imprinting an Inquisition to hit them every turn? Damnation every turn? In theory, Mirror can provide a true Slave lock with Noxious Revival. Also, 8 mana to imprint WF on your upkeep in response to the trigger is conveniently the 7B required to flashback Increasing Ambition and tutor for 2 cards. At the end of the day, it's another thing they need to stop or else you just win with anything that can hit them for damage.
How's the deck run without Lilianas? You still keeping Boseiju mainboard for the single Exsanguinate?
To start off, I love Tron as a deck type, and I'm really glad that people other than myself are tinkering with it and coming up with *new* builds and not just variants of existing Gr KarnTron, U SlaveTron, and UW RitesTron. I appreciate that, I really do, so please take this post as constructively as you can, and I'll try to phrase it as constructively as I can from my end.
24 lands (with 12 Tron) sounds about right to me. Basics and Urzas are fine, Urborg, Eye of Ugin, and Boseiju require specific things in the deck so we'll keep them in mind for later on. Ghost Quarter is probably fine as a tech land, though I think it should be up to 2 for it to be any effective, but I digress.
Here are what I found to be the main "hitters" of the deck. Either things that actively win you the game or things that can hamstring the opponent enough so they're far enough behind that they cannot catch up (main reason why I consider Karn a threat). While they are fine cards on their own, only one of them is a sorcery that Boseiju is relevant for. Generally, it's not the Damnation that NEEDS to be made uncounterable, it's your Exsanguinate for 12. Is the Boseiju necessary? I hold no issue with anything else except Karn, who I believe does not belong outside "aggressive" Tron lists. More on that later, but I also heavily disagree with your valuation of Karn. Yes, he's a powerhouse against control with his +4. Yes, he can blow up permanents at will. But that's against control. When Zoo is beating you down with a Tarmogoyf and a Nacatl and Karn drops down, the tempting play is to exile one of the offenders so they stop hitting you - except that puts him at a convenient 3 loyalty. Guess what removes 3 loyalty and is commonly played in red aggro decks?
I went and separated the "tech" section into sections so we can compare and see where this deck totally breaks down. Starting from the bottom (because I was too lazy to rearrange them), your dig, which consists of the set of expedition maps, Solemn death triggers, and Lili Vess -2. To be perfectly honest, I don't think that's enough. I feel this deck wants some sort of tutor or draw power in addition to 4 maps and 3 death triggers. Though I definitely see the Trading post and its potential to loop Solemns in and out of play.
Next, we have 9 pieces of removal, 4 of them en masse. Oblivion Stone is a fantastic card in Tron that's able to deal with anything that isn't a planeswalker, but I'm afraid that 3 Damnations might be a bit much.
Thoughtseize and the Lilis round it out with a bit of a disruption package, but I can't say I'm a fan of the Lilis in Tron. Lili of the Veil has been shown to be brutal in the early game (if you were around when Deathrite Shaman into turn 2 Liliana was a thing, you know what I mean), but in Tron, you're either running her out way past turn 2 or 3, where +1 up to 4 could just end in her being run over next turn, or if you're sitting on double-color turn 3, then I can't imagine you're casting any of your big things anytime soon. Lili Vess I feel is just a bit too slow outside of monoblack or Dimir control that can use her to finish ripping apart someone's hand and start tutoring up win conditions.
My main problem with the deck is its relative lack of internal synergy. You want to play high-mana-cost cards, yet you are barely able to draw cards or search of Tron pieces. You capitalize on creature kill while you are barely advancing your own plan, it seems. Karn seems to stand out in particular. In my personal testing, he hasn't been particularly spectacular outside of his Green-based home, since he generally comes down too late and either pluses not affecting the board, or blows up one thing before eating a bolt or an attack. I really don't like him. If you want another threat, consider Sundering Titan. He's been an absolute beast for me, drastically altering the game and often creating a dilemma for the opponent - if they get rid of him, they lose more lands, if they don't, they need to deal with a 7/10. It's a "leave play" trigger too, so regardless of combat, Path to Exile, Doom Blade - he will eat their lands, at the cost of a single swamp from you. Hell, if Urborg's in play, you just pick one of their "swamps". Sometimes, the destruction and presence will be enough to win games on its own against decks that like playing too many shocklands.
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On the other hand, what you do not capitalize on are Black's other strengths that are more relevant - namely, hand disruption and tutoring. You do run the Lilis, but their double-color requirement leaves them either coming down too late or as a sign that Tron isn't happening. I would personally replace the Lilis with something like Inquisition of Kozilek that are light on the color (pun) and fulfill the same purpose. For tutors, I would probably recommend one or two copies of Increasing Ambition, since it grabs up to three cards in installments, off a single card.
Also, just wanted to mention that Black Tron gets a "Mindslaver Lock" in imprinting Worst Fears onto Panoptic Mirror.
I feel like Black Tron really wants to splash another color if it wants to get anywhere. Blue provides more powerful draw as well as Mindslaver, and Green gives land search and interesting threats like Garruk, Apex Predator. On its own, B-Tron either wants to go full-combo with tutors and disruption and no middle-ground beaters or threats, or something with a bunch more draw and have it resemble mono-black control of old except with a strong late-game Eldrazi plan.
I will probably come back to this post later after I write my finals and make it more coherent, and I hope the dream of Black Tron lives on!
So I've been playing around with various Tron variants (because I think that there is more viable than the Big 3), and I've come up with this monstrosity:
This list aims to stall/protect itself early, assemble Tron either naturally or with Gifts into Loam, and then proceed to start dropping threats:
-Emrakul, Mindslaver, and Wurmcoil are self-explanatory;
-Sundering Titan blows up lands on entry and on exit attached to a huge body, creating "deal with an 7/10 and lose even more land or else" scenarios;
-Batterskull comes down relatively early, helps preserve life vs aggro/burn, resilient, Ruins target;
-Thragtusk comes down relatively early, helps preserve life, is not Path'd profitable
-Triskelion provides late-game reach, shoots down tokens, Ruins target;
-Simic Sky Swallower flies, tramples, and is hard to deal with - but you could've gotten that by just reading the card Can be an absolute powerhouse once it lands because some decks apparently have trouble dealing with 6/6 flying trample shroud.
-Artisan of Kozilek is probably the biggest question mark for everyone, and in live games he tends to be the big underdog. Sure, he's not Ulamog or Kozilek, but he still beats for 10 with annihilator, reanimates any non-Path'd threats, and creates awkward Gifts piles - unless you're searching for no creatures and there are none in your grave, he will generally be sent to the grave netting you a "free card"
The sideboard is something that's in constant flux and I change up from time to time, here's what it looks like now:
Explanation:
-Extra Titans vs decks that need mana or play 2+ colors, generally as "replacement" threats if any MB threats aren't effective/relevant;
-Emperion to clog the board vs non-control, non-combo decks;
-Gaea's Revenge is a near-autowin vs control as they have no way of interacting with it outside of Wrath/global effects;
-Nature's Claim vs Pod, Twin, Affinity, Blood Moon + other relevant things that may need destruction;
-Aetherize vs Zoo, Affinity, Living End, fast, creature-based aggro;
-Negate to replace Condescend vs control, considering trying out Commandeer in this slot just for laughs;
-Creeping Corrosion because I'm that afraid of Affinity;
-Fabricate because slight package, also allows for "direct" tutoring into Batterskull/Triskelion/Slaver, generally if I feel that I need Batterskull ASAP or if something needs to come out that has no direct replacement;
-Pithing Needle is quick and easy solution to problem permanents, Fabricateable, Gifts-able, Ruins-able;
-Tormod's Crypt gets tutored quick and deals with graves
-Chalice of the Void set to the right value can do a lot of damage to decks, and values even up to 4 are somewhat reasonable in a Tron build.
Hooray! New Tron builds! Will definitely think on this because I love novel decks, but for now I'll suggest 1 more Worst Fears (I've seen it absolutely wreck in black Tron) as well as casually note that Black Tron gets a "Mindslaver Lock" with Worst Fears and Panoptic Mirror and 8 mana. 8 is also conveniently the amount of mana needed to flashback Increasing Ambition and tutor for two cards.
Also perhaps Phyrexian Arena over Connections? Doesn't force you to waste a land tap to draw..
You need to ask yourself, "Do I want to play Tron or do I want to build the white enchantment deck?"
The issue with doing both is the fact that Tron requires a very specific build. I'm a Tron player and a brewer, and I've tried so many different Tron builds and brews before settling on the one I'm with now, so trust me on the following Tron-related blurb: Tron can only really exist as a "get Tron online as soon as humanly possible" build (RG) or "take your time and have all of the mana in the world for the late-game" (U/UW). The first assembles Tron before turn 5, plays a huge colorless threat (Karn/Wurmcoil/Titan/etc) and tries to get there with it. This is something you clearly cannot do, as your enchantments are all colored (meaning you have no plays before turn 3, short of a map) and your major win condition (Sigil) involves playing multiple enchantments, requiring multiple colored mana, which is another thing that "ASAP" ComboTron will not and cannot do consistently. This brings us to the "take your time" Tron, which again doesn't quite get there because you have no way of impacting the board until turn 3 with an O-Ring effect - the removal of a single threat at sorcery speed will often not be enough, however. You will need more defensive enchantments, such as Ghostly Prison to not die before you get your Sigil online. Also, with only 11 plains, Emeria will never trigger, but even then, the targets you have for it are very lacking for the amount of work you need to do to get Emeria up.
If you just want to go with the Enchantment theme, I'd recommend taking a look at the "Enduring Ideal" thread somewhere in this forum as well. Even without the Form of the Dragon/Dovescape combo, the amount of disruption that deck provides is ridiculous, with mainboard Leyline of Sanctity, Runed Halo, Rest in Peace while the opponent is just unable to pay to attack through Ghostly Prisons and Sphere of Safety... A very strong choice, one that you may regret helping her build! (It plays a very slow, grindy game to nearly lock the opponent out of doing anything productive though, and that playstyle isn't for everyone)
If you want to stick with the Enchantment Tron, then you will definitely need more defences. Also, I'd recommend cutting some of the lower-impact things like the Eidolon and Archon and adding things that can either get you to survive to getting your game-enders online (Elspeth and/or Sigil) or things that can use the amount of mana your deck can generate, such as Shining Shoal or White Sun's Zenith.
Finally, some White-specific things Tron can do (you can tell I've already tried to brew this at some point haha) are Boonweaver Giant into Eldrazi Conscription, or Bringer of the White Dawn can continuously revive Expedition Map until you can lock them out with a Mindslaver - don't particularly recommend playing any of these cards without a pair though, haha.
Hope that helped and gave you a bit to think about, happy brewing!
Now, this is an idea I've had for a while, and I feel that it might have some merit and develop into something cool if given the attention and testing.
NOTE: This is purely an idea and has not been built or tested. The purpose of this thread is to generate more ideas and hopefully flesh a deck out of this.
So back when JOU spoilers were being announced, of course everyone wanted to see the Gods. I was definitely not an exception. And given that the "minor" gods were generally in the midrange (cmc 4+) category, I was very surprised to see two at cmc 3. Even more so, both of those actually seemed pretty good and playable to me. Then, the more I thought about it, the more I realized an interesting synergy between Athreos and Pharika. When a creature of yours dies, it returns to your hand unless an opponent pays 3. Assuming your opponent doesn't like a steady stream of creatures to endlessly block/attack, they'll pay and leave it in the grave. Once in the grave, Pharika makes even more use out of it by turning it into a Snake.
So then, if we want to play around this synergy, we need ways to assemble specific creatures on the board. There's one very good way of doing that in Modern: Birthing Pod.
The one thing that I'm kind of at a loss for here is how the deck would do this nifty game action called "winning". I've had two ideas for that so far:
1) The Snakes that Pharika makes are enchantment creatures. That means they will trigger from any sort of constellation, including Underworld Coinsmith.
2) Extend the Pod chain beyond Athreos and Pharika - up to Gods that can actually win the game. This could be a fantastic defense/recursion engine, so it would need something that could hurt the opponent while we're sitting behind our snakes. Going up to cmc 4 we have access to Mogis, and one more at 5 we can try to squeeze Keranos in.
Ideally, the deck would play some sort of slight aggro backed by the recursion/defense engine of the Gods. Ideal play could be something like:
t1 - Overgrown Tomb, BoP
t2 - land, Pod
t3 - Tomb and BoP for Bloodghast (example), Pod Bloodghast into Athreos. Landfall Bloodghast back.
Potential (reusable) higher drops would be Kitchen Finks for Mogis, and I haven't quite figured out how (or even if) I'd pull out Keranos.
Budget for suggestions: Anything that's more than $20 a card that isn't integral (Gods or Pod) is probably off limits - for me anyway. Feel free to suggest anything for now, and we can figure it out together!
I'll try to come up with a (very) rough draft of this tomorrow, when I'm slightly more awake than I am now. Just wanted to put this here to get people thinking.
Hey all! Haven't posted here in almost a year haha how have you all been?
So I've been watching Travis Woo stream a bunch in the past while. What particularly caught my eye was a variant on Living End he suggested. It was the All-In Blood Moon idea, but what I found really interesting was the inclusion of Rest in Peace, Kataki, Stony Silence, and another strange card in there.
I have no idea if other people have seen this and whether it's been brought up before, but it got me thinking.
Living End is essentially known for being a solid and strong gameplan pre-board, but postboard has to be able to fight through grave hate, extraction effects, you name it. What if we use our sideboard to (almost) entirely switch gears into the hardcast plan?
Sure, some matchups, like Zoo or Tron, might still be favorable and we might not even need to board in the first place. But there are undoubtedly some where we could use an extra push in our direction. The deck will no longer vomit dudes out of the grave, but the idea is that if it disrupts them enough, it might not need to.
Completely fictitious example #1: Affinity
After seeing that you play Living End, the Affinity/Robots player knows to keep a few things in hand. Lays down some non-creature artifacts, plays a creature, plays a Cranial Plating. Meanwhile, you're cycling away a few dudes, laying some land, the generic non-greedy early game. Then you decide to cascade .. into Kataki. The only real thing that can save them is Galvanic Blast, which they may or may not have or even see that game.
Completely fictitious example #2: Twin
They know you play the End. It's turn three, you pass turn with 3 lands. At end of turn, they flash in Pestermite because they already have another Exarch in hand if need be. In response, you Outburst and cascade into .. Torpor Orb.
I can go on and on with examples, but you all get the point. So before I totally bore you, I present the "I don't care what you're playing, I hate it already" variant of Living End, otherwise known as the "Hateboard"
Here you will find anything from broad use (Slaughter Games) to nonspecific (Torpor Orb) to very specific (Illness in the Ranks). Twin is probably the specific matchup I am most afraid of, as well as Control, but I'm not sure if Control has any specific cards to counter it :/
I'll be testing the Hateboard over the next few times I do Magic, any suggestions for alterations or cries of how silly it is are welcome
What would you use it for? I'm not seeing any sort of utility from the Extraction, to be honest. Countering threats and removing them hinders our own post-Fate plan?
Instead of the Wall, you could try Spellskite? same body, but also protects Fate from rogue artifact/enchant destruction, but that's the best I can think of. I'm curious to see the final list!
So lets eschew the thought of a transformation side board. My reasoning for evening bringing up Mana Tithe was that its sub optimal and just like our friends Monty Python taught us "NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!" Or sub optimal cards. Having 1 white up when you pass the turn the thought of you holding a tax spell for white isn't going to even cross the mind of your opponent.
I feel that Mana Tithe works best not when it (the card) is unexpected but when counters in general are unexpected. In Mono-W Tithe is hilarious because holding up a Plains generally threatens Path, not a counter. In order to play Fate though, we *must* be in blue. When you hold up mana in blue, the expectation is that there's a counterspell. And when we're already expected to have a counterspell, blue is already better.
While I like this deck and I think it's hilarious, I have to ask a couple of things:
-has anyone ever tried a mirror match?
-how does this deck behave against graveyard-based decks like the ones who play Bloodghasts and similar stuff?
In order:
-Nobody has tried a mirror match because there is about 0% chance of that happening, as this deck doesn't exist in the metagame yet. If, say, at GP Richmond (which I think is the largest Modern event to date) there is a Fate mirror I will be more surprised that there are two Fate players in the same room.
-Recursive threats generally beat this deck down; but White gives us Path to Exile, and Red has Anger of the Gods. If you're splashing for one of those colors, don't leave home without those included - they're solid options regardless of the grave decks.
12 Tron
4 Breeding Pool
2 Yavimaya Coast
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ghost Quarter
Utility Artifacts:6
4 Expedition Map
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Solemn Simulacrum
Spells:24
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Remand
4 Condescend
4 Repeal
4 Explore
1 Life from the Loam
1 Evacuation
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Fabricate
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Batterskull
1 Sundering Titan
1 Artisan of Kozilek
1 Mindslaver
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Aetherize
2 Squelch
2 Nature's Claim
2 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Gaea's Revenge
1 Thragtusk
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Negate
1 Commandeer
Brief breakdown and explanation:
LANDS:
-I should not have to explain Tron
-4 Breeding Pool and 2 Yavimaya Coast: Breeding Pools hurt us once for 2 (or not at all if coming down turn 1), while Coasts hurt us as we need them. Coasts do not have basic land types so they're safe from Sundering Titan, but I have lost a game at 1 life because I did not have a second (third?) blue source to cast Evacuation, so your mileage may vary. I like the 4-2 split, but if you're going heavier on artifacts similar to G-base Tron, I could see 3-3 or even 2-4.
-2 Islands and 1 Forest: because opposing Ghost Quarters and Path to Exiles are most definitely a thing, also helps if you need colors and don't want to pay life for them God forbid you need to Map for a basic in dire circumstances. Also ramped by Solemn Simulacrum.
-1 Ghost Quarter: was originally Eye of Ugin, but I got tired of needing a land and drawing an Eye... GQ helps in any variant of the Tron mirror, and can potentially lead to interesting situations with Loam
-1 Academy Ruins: Mindslaver aside, this can recur Maps to assemble Tron, most of our fatties to replay, and soft-lock with Oblivion Stone.
SPELLS:
-Repeal and Condescend are U-Tron control staples. I run a set of each because they help us interact with the opponent and slow them down while giving us a bit of an advantage
-Remands are excellent for any deck that wants to assemble specific cards, delay the opponent, and/or push into the lategame. Oh, and it draws us a card, too.
-Explores are in because I wanted to use some sort of land acceleration from G, and it felt odd if the only reason the deck is green is for Loam and some cards in the side. While I'm a fan of them in theory, I could see myself dropping 1 in favor of something else, as they use a color and aren't guaranteed to get you anything useful - though they DO enable a turn 3 Sundering Titan, so that's something to keep in mind.
-I feel like I've said enough about Gifts in my earlier post, so I don't want to sound like a total fanboy (even though I probably am)
-Loam already discussed above
-Cyclonic Rift and Evacuation are there primarily for the "Gifts into 3 wipes" scenario so I always get one should I need one, but they are ever so slightly different: Rift will bounce everything but not manlands (!) while Evac bounces manlands but not the rest of their board which may include Blood Moon or Cranial Plating or planeswalkers or etc. Rift can also be used as emergency single-target bounce, while Evac cannot
-Fabricate is one that used to be in the board, and then crawled into the main and never left. It's a shame I didn't realize it sooner, but just about everything in the deck revolves around artifacts for it to fetch: Need a land? Expedition Map. Need a wipe? Oblivion Stone. Need a threat? Take your pick (except the Eldrazi). As mentioned in my previous comment, a turn 4 Tron + blue source Fabricates and plays Batterskull, which is often a powerplay.
THREATS:
-Flying death squid is flying death squid.
-Flying death squid's little cousin is primarily here because (A) we can cast him a good chunk of the time, and (B) because he reanimates through countermagic and (C) in a Gifts package of at least one other creature threat, it becomes a difficult choice for the enemy.
-Giant Metal Worm is also pretty self-explanatory at this point
-Batterskull, while on the slightly smaller end, is there for the purposes of staving off aggro and gaining us some life, but also because it is notoriously difficult to deal with (provided we have mana open) through its self-bouncing. If the Germ dies, just stick it onto something else and enjoy.
-Sundering Titan has the ability to win games by himself, or be nigh-irrelevant. The more shocks your opponents play, the better he gets, and best of all, he triggers again when the opponent decides they can't handle the 7/10 to take more of their lands away. I definitely would not leave home without one main, but he is generally the first thing to be sided out vs monocolor or Affinity.
-Inkwell Leviathan has the magic number 7 colorless in his mana cost, has two forms of evasion, and SHROUD. For the opponent, that brings a world of pain. For us, we're sad that we can't equip Batterskull to it.
SB:
-Aetherize against heavy aggro, like zoo or Affinity and Twin
-Squelch.. hurts just about anything. Stops a 'walker for a turn, stops fetches, stops manlands, stops Twin. And it draws us a card.
-Nature's Claim deals with hate cards of all colors. Blood Moon, Spreading Seas, Stony Silence, Choke are all valid targets, and bonus points vs Affinity
-Creeping Corrosion ... have you noticed I want to be prepared vs Affinity?
-Sundering Titans I've been a huge, huge fan of since I started the deck, and his ability to single-handedly end games just by hitting the board is undeniable. But 3 in the 75 can feel like a lot, even for a really good hitter, so I could see going down to 1 main 1 SB if you need to open some room.
-Tormod's Crypt is Fabricateable and gives us some level of protection against the occasional graveyard deck
-Platinum Emperion is my personal choice over Platinum Angel. They do have their differences, but what turns me off the Angel is the "bring you down to negative life, kill Angel" plan, while the Emperion keeps you alive and needs to be dealt with before anything else can hurt you. Having said that, Angel is probably the better choice in an Infect meta, but Emperion is definitely an alternative if Infect is not a concern for you.
-Thragtusk: yadda yadda, aggro, lifegain, leaves a body when dies.
-Gaea's Revenge is our universal answer to control. It can't be countered, can't be target-bounced, can't be Pathed, Bolted, and so on. It also has haste and kills them in 2-3 hits. For bonus points, you could try Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur in this spot, but I find Revenge to be much more threatening (pun intended)
-Negate is an afterthought because I had one spot left, I used to run 2 in here but 1 got removed for something else. Has its relevant matchups, but is totally removable for some secret tech
-Speaking of secret tech, my newest addition is Commandeer, primarily to deal with Gr Tron that assembles a lot quicker than this one does and doesn't really care about Condescends. Commandeer is to steal their Karn, or their Ugin, or their Oblivion Stone, or even a clutch Ancient Stirrings or Sylvan Scrying. Has yet to be tested, but I will report as soon as I have info on it.
Ta-da! I can answer any and all questions now.
Hello, and welcome to my latest Modern brainchild. This'll start off just as an idea but will hopefully develop into a deck and maybe even a Feature! God forbid, this will actually pick up somewhere and actually move up a forum, which might just make me cry with joy. This is an idea based on an existing draft of a deck I had, just trying to give a nifty card a home and maybe it'll do better in a UR control shell. This is by no means a comprehensive list (unless a list of ideas counts?) so any and all constructive criticism is requested and welcome. Ideally, there would be a "slightly budgety" and a "bank account 0" version where you folks and your fancy Scalding Tarns and Snapcaster Mages can pick this up and double the dollar value of the deck and maybe actually win tournaments with this or something. I'm just a brewer, doing this for fun and trying to make something new and interesting to contribute to the community, the format, and the game.
Less talk, more magic! Welcome to Bomb Control!
Tick
At its core, this would play as a UR Control list, which means we can start with a core of
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Shivan Reef
7 Island
5 Mountain
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Remand
4 Rune Snag
3 Electrolyze
3 Anger of the Gods
Those of you with Tarns, Snaps, Cryptics and Cliques already have extra lines to this deck built, but for those of us that do not, we can start with this. Yes, Rune Snag is slightly more difficult to find than Leaks, but I feel like it is better for those of us without Snaps, as beyond the first they scale with the game and aren't "dead" in the late game. Technically Leaks aren't dead either, but lategame "Pay 3" is easier to punch a spell through than "Pay 4" or "Pay 6". Those with Snaps probably want the Leaks so you can flash them back without fear. This may also want some amount of Izzet Charm, but this is just me getting ideas out there for you guys to help add to.
Tick
We now have an early game, and control needs a way to win. You know what's fun? Big things that have a lot of the number 6 on them.
2 Inferno Titan
1 Darksteel Sentinel
Tick
At this point you're probably thinking, "but so far this just looks like a terrible Twin deck. Where's the fun in making a good deck bad?" You've noticed the Sentinel, yes? Confused as to why he's even being considered, yes? Well, let me drop a few more to confuse you even more.
2 Honden of Infinite Rage
Tick
Ral? HONDEN? What is this madness? What connects these two to Darksteel Sentinel? They don't die to "The Bomb".
Wait, you were thinking the Titans were the bombs I had in mind?
You think too small, my friend.
Putting it all together, we get a pile of jank that looks something like:
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Shivan Reef
7 Island
5 Mountain
4 Rune Snag
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Electrolyze
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Inferno Titan
1 Batterskull
1 Darksteel Sentinel
3 Ral Zarek
2 Honden of Burning Rage
2 Obliterate
This puts us at 54 cards. Six away from blowing up Tolaria at your LGS. I will be adding more about rationale and why Obliterate, but I just wanted to get this out there before I forget and hopefully this piques someone's interest to embark on a creative collaboration with myself on this.
Cheers, hope you enjoyed my half-sleeping rambling, and I will hopefully come back to this tomorrow morning and make this slightly more coherent.
FAQ:
Q: Is this viable?
A: I have no idea. I got the idea for this about an hour ago, and the list was made literally while I was typing this
Q: Ugh, you're terrible at control - you are totally missing [insert card/combo/synergy here]!
A: Yes, I haven't played UR control in Modern since ever. I fully expect that there are numerous issues with this list as it stands, but that's where I'm hoping some of you guys will see the reason in my madness and help me make this ever so slightly more playable. You get to play Obliterate!
Q: Damnit, you're terrible at building! What about how about replacing [Card X] with [completely superior Card Y]?
A: Building is exactly what the name suggests - you take something small and gradually put effort into it to turn it into something cute and adorable that explodes and can't be countered. There are some cards I'd be interested in testing out on purpose (Sentinel), some cards I'm aware of that auto-fill into the deck (Cryptic, Snapcaster, Tarn) that I'm not considering for the "base" list, and some that are personal pet cards (Obliterate).
Q: Obliterate? Really?
A: Yes, really.
My variant on it builds on the U-base and adds green (as opposed to G-base with blue), and I will admit one of the major reasons is the Gifts+Loam interaction. I also apologize for wordiness because sleepy.
First, I will just say that Gifts can be ridiculous in any control build. I firmly believe that unless you have a very particular U-based build, it should contain at least some amounts of Gifts. I don't know whether to recommend Gifts to the G-base, just because between Stirrings and Scrying they already have a lot of dig to the point of not even needing more than 1 Gifts, if any.
What makes Gifts absolutely dumb is the inclusion of Life from the Loam. Loam on its own is an answer to the first obvious enemy of Tron - land "destruction" that isn't Sowing Salt or Blood Moon. Beyond rescuing from land destruction, it is also reusable with Dredge. If you run a single Ghost Quarter or Tec Edge for the mirror, it becomes that much stronger a tool. Which all sounds like a card to come out of SB in response to mirrors or anticipated LD.
The issue with Gifts is that your opponent can and will deny you crucial pieces. The issue with Loam is that it doesn't do anything except let you recover, so you never really want more than 1. You can kind of see what I'm getting at by now, yes?
Putting anything land-based and Loam into a Gifts package makes the choice pretty awkward for the opponent, since you technically always get what you want.
Tron + Loam finds you the full Tron if needed. If you already have some of it, grab Academy Ruins. Grab Wurmcoil Engine. Make it a pile where no matter what your opponent gives you, you still have access to everything.
Loam + Academy Ruins + Slaver + [missing Tron piece/Tower/Wurmcoil/O-Stone] can be a silly pile that doesn't really have a way out.
I am very very pro-Loam in my own list, but unless Gifts is there for abuse, it would probably stick in the board as a very potent recursive recovery tool.
Also, I've played around with threat density and identity in my list, and here's a [very] brief summary noting the ones that have not really been discussed:
- Sundering Titan can be silly and can win games on his own (note that if both island and forest need to hit own lands, you can point to the same Breeding Pool)
- Artisan of Kozilek is a minor Eldrazi that nobody really remembers after the Big 3, but we're probably still accelling to 9 (7 with the Eye), 10/9 annihilator 2 is still not a joke, and the reanimation ability is on-cast, bypassing most counterspells. For extra fun, include him in a Gifts package with 3 other fatties and laugh as an opponent tries to figure that pile out.
-Batterskull is still a strong t3 play, and with tron+U comes out t4 off Fabricate.
-Control matchup? We are in the colors and mana amounts to run two fun cards: Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur and Gaea's Revenge. I've been leaning more toward the latter as it is near-impossible to deal with well.
That's all for tonight, will come back to answer questions and post my current list in the morning.
Peace out and happy Tronning!
Effective use of Through the Breach would require a much greater threat density than what this deck wants to do, I think. Especially when it only really gives free wins when Emrakul jumps through, which would need 4 of him/her/it, and then 4 Breaches, and a bunch more dig to find them, and I feel like that becomes a completely different deck at that point. I could definitely see a BreachTron variant, and TtB is an excellent card, I just don't feel this is its home.
You're right. There should be more Wurms. The list I put up is what I currently run on Cockatrice, which I try to match with my budget (or something more or less realistic). The Wurms would probably take over the Doom Engine slots, if I could afford them. Guess I should put up an "ideal" and "budgeted list" up there.
Thanks a lot, I appreciate the input
What do you get when you combine Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict, Armageddon, and Creeping Corrosion, and then give it to the best color in magic?
"Exodia, Obliterate!!!"
If you follow my latest posts at all, you know I am a huge fan of Tron. And not just the pre-established versions, I think there is so much more that Tron can do that just needs a bit of creativity and tinkering with to discover and put together. I currently have way more Tron ideas in my head than any sane person should, most likely not viable outside of casual games. Red being my favorite single color in magic, I felt that it didn't quite get the justice it merits from the KarnTron lists as being an auxiliary color for Pyroclasm and some other shenanigans out of the board, so mono-Red Tron was born.
The key with Tron is to find obscene things to do with colorless mana that can be aided by your colors in question. Green as a primary color gives you land searches through Sylvan Scrying and Ancient Stirrings. Blue gives you access to Academy Ruins and its interaction with Mindslaver requiring the Ruins and 12 mana.
What can Red do? It can throw damage straight at you with X-spells like Blaze or it can blow up the world.
12x Tron
4x Darksteel Citadel
6x Mountain
Artifact: 12
4x Expedition Map
4x Ichor Wellspring
2x Mycosynth Wellspring
2x Trading Post
Creature: 10
1x Artisan of Kozilek
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Greater Gargadon
1x Sundering Titan
4x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Honden of Infinite Rage
Sorcery: 4
2x Obliterate
2x Red Sun's Zenith
Instant: 10
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Shrapnel Blast
2x Volcanic Fallout
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Shatterstorm
1x Volcanic Fallout
3x Faithless Looting
1x Anarchist
4x Combust
This is the "ideal" list I would play if I could afford all of the pieces. The main things out of reach for me right now are the Wurmcoils, so this is the list I am actually playing:
4x Darksteel Citadel
6x Mountain
Artifact: 12
4x Expedition Map
4x Ichor Wellspring
2x Mycosynth Wellspring
2x Trading Post
1x Artisan of Kozilek
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Greater Gargadon
1x Sundering Titan
1x Wurmcoil Engine
3x Scuttling Doom Engine
2x Honden of Infinite Rage
Sorcery: 4
2x Obliterate
2x Red Sun's Zenith
Instant: 10
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Shrapnel Blast
2x Volcanic Fallout
Under construction
I've only had a few games with it, but I really enjoy the direction this is taking. I'll be working on this as time allows, but feel free to jump in and help out
Sure, the Mirror package is a bit cute. But Mirror can be a legit card even without Worst Fears. How about imprinting an Inquisition to hit them every turn? Damnation every turn? In theory, Mirror can provide a true Slave lock with Noxious Revival. Also, 8 mana to imprint WF on your upkeep in response to the trigger is conveniently the 7B required to flashback Increasing Ambition and tutor for 2 cards. At the end of the day, it's another thing they need to stop or else you just win with anything that can hit them for damage.
How's the deck run without Lilianas? You still keeping Boseiju mainboard for the single Exsanguinate?
So let's take a look at it step by step:
12 Urza Lands
3 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Boseiju, who shelters all
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Ghost Quarter
24 lands (with 12 Tron) sounds about right to me. Basics and Urzas are fine, Urborg, Eye of Ugin, and Boseiju require specific things in the deck so we'll keep them in mind for later on. Ghost Quarter is probably fine as a tech land, though I think it should be up to 2 for it to be any effective, but I digress.
1 Ulamog, The Infinite Gyre
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Grave Titan
1 Exsanguinate
1 Batterskull
3 Karn Liberated
Here are what I found to be the main "hitters" of the deck. Either things that actively win you the game or things that can hamstring the opponent enough so they're far enough behind that they cannot catch up (main reason why I consider Karn a threat). While they are fine cards on their own, only one of them is a sorcery that Boseiju is relevant for. Generally, it's not the Damnation that NEEDS to be made uncounterable, it's your Exsanguinate for 12. Is the Boseiju necessary? I hold no issue with anything else except Karn, who I believe does not belong outside "aggressive" Tron lists. More on that later, but I also heavily disagree with your valuation of Karn. Yes, he's a powerhouse against control with his +4. Yes, he can blow up permanents at will. But that's against control. When Zoo is beating you down with a Tarmogoyf and a Nacatl and Karn drops down, the tempting play is to exile one of the offenders so they stop hitting you - except that puts him at a convenient 3 loyalty. Guess what removes 3 loyalty and is commonly played in red aggro decks?
2 Trading Post
4 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana Vess
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Disfigure
2 Doom Blade
1 Murderous Cut
1 Oblivion Stone
I went and separated the "tech" section into sections so we can compare and see where this deck totally breaks down. Starting from the bottom (because I was too lazy to rearrange them), your dig, which consists of the set of expedition maps, Solemn death triggers, and Lili Vess -2. To be perfectly honest, I don't think that's enough. I feel this deck wants some sort of tutor or draw power in addition to 4 maps and 3 death triggers. Though I definitely see the Trading post and its potential to loop Solemns in and out of play.
Next, we have 9 pieces of removal, 4 of them en masse. Oblivion Stone is a fantastic card in Tron that's able to deal with anything that isn't a planeswalker, but I'm afraid that 3 Damnations might be a bit much.
Thoughtseize and the Lilis round it out with a bit of a disruption package, but I can't say I'm a fan of the Lilis in Tron. Lili of the Veil has been shown to be brutal in the early game (if you were around when Deathrite Shaman into turn 2 Liliana was a thing, you know what I mean), but in Tron, you're either running her out way past turn 2 or 3, where +1 up to 4 could just end in her being run over next turn, or if you're sitting on double-color turn 3, then I can't imagine you're casting any of your big things anytime soon. Lili Vess I feel is just a bit too slow outside of monoblack or Dimir control that can use her to finish ripping apart someone's hand and start tutoring up win conditions.
My main problem with the deck is its relative lack of internal synergy. You want to play high-mana-cost cards, yet you are barely able to draw cards or search of Tron pieces. You capitalize on creature kill while you are barely advancing your own plan, it seems. Karn seems to stand out in particular. In my personal testing, he hasn't been particularly spectacular outside of his Green-based home, since he generally comes down too late and either pluses not affecting the board, or blows up one thing before eating a bolt or an attack. I really don't like him. If you want another threat, consider Sundering Titan. He's been an absolute beast for me, drastically altering the game and often creating a dilemma for the opponent - if they get rid of him, they lose more lands, if they don't, they need to deal with a 7/10. It's a "leave play" trigger too, so regardless of combat, Path to Exile, Doom Blade - he will eat their lands, at the cost of a single swamp from you. Hell, if Urborg's in play, you just pick one of their "swamps". Sometimes, the destruction and presence will be enough to win games on its own against decks that like playing too many shocklands.
-
On the other hand, what you do not capitalize on are Black's other strengths that are more relevant - namely, hand disruption and tutoring. You do run the Lilis, but their double-color requirement leaves them either coming down too late or as a sign that Tron isn't happening. I would personally replace the Lilis with something like Inquisition of Kozilek that are light on the color (pun) and fulfill the same purpose. For tutors, I would probably recommend one or two copies of Increasing Ambition, since it grabs up to three cards in installments, off a single card.
Also, just wanted to mention that Black Tron gets a "Mindslaver Lock" in imprinting Worst Fears onto Panoptic Mirror.
I feel like Black Tron really wants to splash another color if it wants to get anywhere. Blue provides more powerful draw as well as Mindslaver, and Green gives land search and interesting threats like Garruk, Apex Predator. On its own, B-Tron either wants to go full-combo with tutors and disruption and no middle-ground beaters or threats, or something with a bunch more draw and have it resemble mono-black control of old except with a strong late-game Eldrazi plan.
I will probably come back to this post later after I write my finals and make it more coherent, and I hope the dream of Black Tron lives on!
So I've been playing around with various Tron variants (because I think that there is more viable than the Big 3), and I've come up with this monstrosity:
12 Tron
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Yavimaya Coast
4 Breeding Pool
1 Academy Ruins
1 Eye of Ugin
Spells:
4 Condescend
4 Repeal
4 Rune Snag
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Evacuation
1 Life from the Loam
4 Expedition Map
4 Explore
Threats:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Batterskull
1 Thragtusk
1 Artisan of Kozilek
1 Triskelion
1 Mindslaver
1 Simic Sky Swallower
This list aims to stall/protect itself early, assemble Tron either naturally or with Gifts into Loam, and then proceed to start dropping threats:
-Emrakul, Mindslaver, and Wurmcoil are self-explanatory;
-Sundering Titan blows up lands on entry and on exit attached to a huge body, creating "deal with an 7/10 and lose even more land or else" scenarios;
-Batterskull comes down relatively early, helps preserve life vs aggro/burn, resilient, Ruins target;
-Thragtusk comes down relatively early, helps preserve life, is not Path'd profitable
-Triskelion provides late-game reach, shoots down tokens, Ruins target;
-Simic Sky Swallower flies, tramples, and is hard to deal with - but you could've gotten that by just reading the card
-Artisan of Kozilek is probably the biggest question mark for everyone, and in live games he tends to be the big underdog. Sure, he's not Ulamog or Kozilek, but he still beats for 10 with annihilator, reanimates any non-Path'd threats, and creates awkward Gifts piles - unless you're searching for no creatures and there are none in your grave, he will generally be sent to the grave netting you a "free card"
The sideboard is something that's in constant flux and I change up from time to time, here's what it looks like now:
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Gaea's Revenge
2 Nature's Claim
2 Aetherize
2 Negate
1 Fabricate
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chalice of the Void
Explanation:
-Extra Titans vs decks that need mana or play 2+ colors, generally as "replacement" threats if any MB threats aren't effective/relevant;
-Emperion to clog the board vs non-control, non-combo decks;
-Gaea's Revenge is a near-autowin vs control as they have no way of interacting with it outside of Wrath/global effects;
-Nature's Claim vs Pod, Twin, Affinity, Blood Moon + other relevant things that may need destruction;
-Aetherize vs Zoo, Affinity, Living End, fast, creature-based aggro;
-Negate to replace Condescend vs control, considering trying out Commandeer in this slot just for laughs;
-Creeping Corrosion because I'm that afraid of Affinity;
-Fabricate because slight package, also allows for "direct" tutoring into Batterskull/Triskelion/Slaver, generally if I feel that I need Batterskull ASAP or if something needs to come out that has no direct replacement;
-Pithing Needle is quick and easy solution to problem permanents, Fabricateable, Gifts-able, Ruins-able;
-Tormod's Crypt gets tutored quick and deals with graves
-Chalice of the Void set to the right value can do a lot of damage to decks, and values even up to 4 are somewhat reasonable in a Tron build.
Thoughts?
Also perhaps Phyrexian Arena over Connections? Doesn't force you to waste a land tap to draw..
Will check back and hopefully contribute!
*flies away*
The issue with doing both is the fact that Tron requires a very specific build. I'm a Tron player and a brewer, and I've tried so many different Tron builds and brews before settling on the one I'm with now, so trust me on the following Tron-related blurb: Tron can only really exist as a "get Tron online as soon as humanly possible" build (RG) or "take your time and have all of the mana in the world for the late-game" (U/UW). The first assembles Tron before turn 5, plays a huge colorless threat (Karn/Wurmcoil/Titan/etc) and tries to get there with it. This is something you clearly cannot do, as your enchantments are all colored (meaning you have no plays before turn 3, short of a map) and your major win condition (Sigil) involves playing multiple enchantments, requiring multiple colored mana, which is another thing that "ASAP" ComboTron will not and cannot do consistently. This brings us to the "take your time" Tron, which again doesn't quite get there because you have no way of impacting the board until turn 3 with an O-Ring effect - the removal of a single threat at sorcery speed will often not be enough, however. You will need more defensive enchantments, such as Ghostly Prison to not die before you get your Sigil online. Also, with only 11 plains, Emeria will never trigger, but even then, the targets you have for it are very lacking for the amount of work you need to do to get Emeria up.
If you just want to go with the Enchantment theme, I'd recommend taking a look at the "Enduring Ideal" thread somewhere in this forum as well. Even without the Form of the Dragon/Dovescape combo, the amount of disruption that deck provides is ridiculous, with mainboard Leyline of Sanctity, Runed Halo, Rest in Peace while the opponent is just unable to pay to attack through Ghostly Prisons and Sphere of Safety... A very strong choice, one that you may regret helping her build! (It plays a very slow, grindy game to nearly lock the opponent out of doing anything productive though, and that playstyle isn't for everyone)
If you want to stick with the Enchantment Tron, then you will definitely need more defences. Also, I'd recommend cutting some of the lower-impact things like the Eidolon and Archon and adding things that can either get you to survive to getting your game-enders online (Elspeth and/or Sigil) or things that can use the amount of mana your deck can generate, such as Shining Shoal or White Sun's Zenith.
Finally, some White-specific things Tron can do (you can tell I've already tried to brew this at some point haha) are Boonweaver Giant into Eldrazi Conscription, or Bringer of the White Dawn can continuously revive Expedition Map until you can lock them out with a Mindslaver - don't particularly recommend playing any of these cards without a pair though, haha.
Hope that helped and gave you a bit to think about, happy brewing!
NOTE: This is purely an idea and has not been built or tested. The purpose of this thread is to generate more ideas and hopefully flesh a deck out of this.
So back when JOU spoilers were being announced, of course everyone wanted to see the Gods. I was definitely not an exception. And given that the "minor" gods were generally in the midrange (cmc 4+) category, I was very surprised to see two at cmc 3. Even more so, both of those actually seemed pretty good and playable to me. Then, the more I thought about it, the more I realized an interesting synergy between Athreos and Pharika. When a creature of yours dies, it returns to your hand unless an opponent pays 3. Assuming your opponent doesn't like a steady stream of creatures to endlessly block/attack, they'll pay and leave it in the grave. Once in the grave, Pharika makes even more use out of it by turning it into a Snake.
So then, if we want to play around this synergy, we need ways to assemble specific creatures on the board. There's one very good way of doing that in Modern: Birthing Pod.
The one thing that I'm kind of at a loss for here is how the deck would do this nifty game action called "winning". I've had two ideas for that so far:
1) The Snakes that Pharika makes are enchantment creatures. That means they will trigger from any sort of constellation, including Underworld Coinsmith.
2) Extend the Pod chain beyond Athreos and Pharika - up to Gods that can actually win the game. This could be a fantastic defense/recursion engine, so it would need something that could hurt the opponent while we're sitting behind our snakes. Going up to cmc 4 we have access to Mogis, and one more at 5 we can try to squeeze Keranos in.
Ideally, the deck would play some sort of slight aggro backed by the recursion/defense engine of the Gods. Ideal play could be something like:
t1 - Overgrown Tomb, BoP
t2 - land, Pod
t3 - Tomb and BoP for Bloodghast (example), Pod Bloodghast into Athreos. Landfall Bloodghast back.
Potential (reusable) higher drops would be Kitchen Finks for Mogis, and I haven't quite figured out how (or even if) I'd pull out Keranos.
Budget for suggestions: Anything that's more than $20 a card that isn't integral (Gods or Pod) is probably off limits - for me anyway. Feel free to suggest anything for now, and we can figure it out together!
I'll try to come up with a (very) rough draft of this tomorrow, when I'm slightly more awake than I am now. Just wanted to put this here to get people thinking.
What do you think?
So I've been watching Travis Woo stream a bunch in the past while. What particularly caught my eye was a variant on Living End he suggested. It was the All-In Blood Moon idea, but what I found really interesting was the inclusion of Rest in Peace, Kataki, Stony Silence, and another strange card in there.
I have no idea if other people have seen this and whether it's been brought up before, but it got me thinking.
Living End is essentially known for being a solid and strong gameplan pre-board, but postboard has to be able to fight through grave hate, extraction effects, you name it. What if we use our sideboard to (almost) entirely switch gears into the hardcast plan?
Sure, some matchups, like Zoo or Tron, might still be favorable and we might not even need to board in the first place. But there are undoubtedly some where we could use an extra push in our direction. The deck will no longer vomit dudes out of the grave, but the idea is that if it disrupts them enough, it might not need to.
Completely fictitious example #1: Affinity
After seeing that you play Living End, the Affinity/Robots player knows to keep a few things in hand. Lays down some non-creature artifacts, plays a creature, plays a Cranial Plating. Meanwhile, you're cycling away a few dudes, laying some land, the generic non-greedy early game. Then you decide to cascade .. into Kataki. The only real thing that can save them is Galvanic Blast, which they may or may not have or even see that game.
Completely fictitious example #2: Twin
They know you play the End. It's turn three, you pass turn with 3 lands. At end of turn, they flash in Pestermite because they already have another Exarch in hand if need be. In response, you Outburst and cascade into .. Torpor Orb.
I can go on and on with examples, but you all get the point. So before I totally bore you, I present the "I don't care what you're playing, I hate it already" variant of Living End, otherwise known as the "Hateboard"
1 Kataki, War's Wage (Robots)
1 Circle of Protection: Red (Burn)
1 Leonin Arbiter (Scapeshift, Pod to a lesser extent)
1 Ethersworn Canonist (Storm, Living End)
1 Pithing Needle (Twin, Tron, generic catchall)
1 Suppression Field (Twin, Pod, generic catchall)
1 Torpor Orb (Twin, Pod, Soul Sisters, generic)
1 Grafdigger's Cage (Pod, reanimator, Snapcaster Mage, Storm)
1 Stony Silence (Pod, Tron, Eggs, Affinity)
1 Rakdos Charm (Storm, Twin, reanimator, Living End)
1 Eyes of the Wisent (blue)
1 Illness in the Ranks (Twin)
Here you will find anything from broad use (Slaughter Games) to nonspecific (Torpor Orb) to very specific (Illness in the Ranks). Twin is probably the specific matchup I am most afraid of, as well as Control, but I'm not sure if Control has any specific cards to counter it :/
I'll be testing the Hateboard over the next few times I do Magic, any suggestions for alterations or cries of how silly it is are welcome
What would you use it for? I'm not seeing any sort of utility from the Extraction, to be honest. Countering threats and removing them hinders our own post-Fate plan?
Instead of the Wall, you could try Spellskite? same body, but also protects Fate from rogue artifact/enchant destruction, but that's the best I can think of. I'm curious to see the final list!
I feel that Mana Tithe works best not when it (the card) is unexpected but when counters in general are unexpected. In Mono-W Tithe is hilarious because holding up a Plains generally threatens Path, not a counter. In order to play Fate though, we *must* be in blue. When you hold up mana in blue, the expectation is that there's a counterspell. And when we're already expected to have a counterspell, blue is already better.
In order:
-Nobody has tried a mirror match because there is about 0% chance of that happening, as this deck doesn't exist in the metagame yet. If, say, at GP Richmond (which I think is the largest Modern event to date) there is a Fate mirror I will be more surprised that there are two Fate players in the same room.
-Recursive threats generally beat this deck down; but White gives us Path to Exile, and Red has Anger of the Gods. If you're splashing for one of those colors, don't leave home without those included - they're solid options regardless of the grave decks.