I just disagree. I won't keep pushing this and I don't think it will be unbanned, but I do not think this will be as bad as you guys think. Treasure Cruise was awsome and widely used because it draws cards, IT DRAWS CARDS TO FIND YOUR KILL CARDS OR BURN OR COMBO ENABLERS OR WHATEVER YOU ARE LOOKING FOR. MM does not progress your game plan, (except for the mm countering your mm on turn one, which I believe is just to narrow to be as warping as eye of Ugin or treasure cruise was.) Now the sideboard could hold these for about every deck for the matchups that it would be best for, but it's going to mess up your game plan as much as it helps you mainboard imo.
Truthfully what would happen is the meta would shift like it always does. Decks it helps will use it while other decks will make changes to get around it or ignore it and keep doing what they do. I just don't think it will be that pervasive as you describe.
We all heard arguments for and against sotm, av, wild nacatle, Bitterblossom, ggt, Valakut, those were all eventually unbanned and didn't break anything. They are good, but not completely warping. They all caused some meta shifts but eventually created a richer environment. So what I'm trying to say is there were voices on both sides for those cards, so are there for this. Those cards are good, skirting the line of too good in some cases, and I think this falls in same category of good, maybe skirting the line, but not too good.
So looking at mtgpulse most played decks I found many more decks that I just don't think would use mental misstep. More examples: jund, junk, Abzan company, affinity, boggles, storm, eldrazi, soul sisters, Goryo's Vengeance, goblins, Lantern Control, b/w tokens and I'm sure there are more (ones I mentioned earlier include tron, living end, zoo, Adnasium, elves, and I don't think burn would run it.) Mental misstep is a good card, but the claim that it will be used in every deck is just false, it just doesn't make since in these game plans to be playing it. I think mm will be used to about the same extent as spell snare. Spell Snare is a great card, it has decks that use it, it hits commonly used powerful spells like Tarmogoyf or counterspells like remand, but it hasn't taken over the format or in my opinion affected it at all. Mm is more powerful than spell snare and would affect the meta, but I think it would be okay in modern. In legacy it should never be unbaned, the mana curve is too low and it would be able to hit far more spells there than it would be able to in modern.
Why do you think that? It's a free roll. Mana is so smooth in modern all the decks would jam a blue on color shock and run an extra color. Don't want your Discard or 1-drop creature countered by MM? Run MM to counter the counter!
mayby i said this wrong, not every deck will run this. Examples: Tron, living end, elves, Adnasium, Aggro decks like zoo. It just doesnt fit in these gameplans well. Leyline of sanctity is free in your opening hand too and protects against more than just 1 thoughtseize and costs zero life, these decks may run mm but they already have alternatives that work better in some cases. Would burn like to have 2 mm in their opener game one or have 2 more burn spells instead? Or top deck on turn five, do you want the burn spell or mm? I think they would want the burn spells in both cases. Counter your counter turn 1 for free is great but you won't always get to do that and it may rot in your hand if you draw it mid-late game. It just won't fit in every deck. And the entire reason mm is banned is that it can be paid for by 2 life, so I'm not going to debate how manabases will change or what that would do. The mana base is irreverent.
I agree with most of what jayman21 was saying on the last page. I voted to unban mm. I have thought it would be fine for a long time. It will be used primarily in combo decks (infect Falls in here for this discussion) to counter Thoughtseize and iok, and as a side effect it could be used against 1 drop creatures, Bolt and path. Every deck will not run this. I'm not even sure which decks would run 4 main board right now because it is a late game bad draw and if you are a combo player their are other counters you could use but they mostly rely on more redundancy (like infect running more than 2-3 pump spells). Infect would run a few to protect against early creature removal, but that mm in there hand could have been a pump spell for the win so I'm not sure how much better it gets since they already pump their creatures out of bolt range. You would see it everywhere at first, but I dont think it would stay that way. It would definetly slow down the format though as deck building changes slightly to get around it.
Well, time snuck up on me, and it looks like the next banning announcement is in two weeks! Although general consensus does seem to favor no changes, might as well keep the poll going as is tradition. Any suggestions on cards to list for the "what do you want banned?" list? They don't have to be cards that have any real chance of getting banned, just cards that there's at least a reasonable chance of people voting for wanting banned.
If you have suggestions, please list the cards rather than a vague "something from such and such deck." List the specific card(s).
Well, discussing possible unbans (for the purpose of the poll) is unnecessary, because the goal is to try to figure out what cards to list in the poll. For an unbanning poll, it's easy: List every card that's banned. No need for any discussion. Listing potential bannings is what needs to be determined because for obvious reasons it's not possible to list every single card legal in the format.
I don't think I've seen anyone besides Craig Wescoe nominate Inkmoth Nexus. The cards people point to in regards to Infect seem to always be Become Immense and/or Mutagenic Growth, and sometimes Glistener Elf (oddly, I don't recall seeing Blighted Agent even though it's the hardest of the Infect creatures to interact with).
Anyway, so it looks like we'd probably want this for now:
Become Immense
Blood Moon
Cranial Plating
Ensnaring Bridge
Goryo's Vengeance
Mox Opal
Mutagenic Growth
Simian Spirit Guide
I've taken some of the suggestions given in this topic and also added anything that got 5% or more in the previous poll (unless something has happened to dramatically change the validity of such a banning--sure, Eldrazi Temple got 50.9%, but Eye of Ugin's banning made that a bit moot).
Any other suggestions from anyone to include in the poll? It doesn't have to be something you yourself want banned, just something you've seen a number of people suggest.
I think Inkmoth deserves to be an option here. Affinity and infect have 2 cards listed each, Inkmoth would affect both and only hit one card. I'm not saying it should be banned, but it is a cleaner option than banning multiple cards.
I'm more interested in the unban poll. Splinter twin, sfm, jtms, gsz, Preordain, BBE are the most likely to come off, but I am not sure any will come off this time. I would even be okay with dtt and mental misstep, but definetly all these things will never be allowed in the format at the same time, but a few could work.
Prediction: bans - none, unbans - none (but there should be at least one)
I have been reviewing mtgpulse.com results, specificly I looked at the daily League results, and I noticed a huge drop in Eldrazi 5-0 lists. Today Eldrazi will put up 1-3 daily winners and when I compare that to early Feb results, which were 5-6 5-0 daily winners, I am not sure it deserves a ban. I play colorless Eldrazi and I win alot, but when I look at the data I'm not sure it will stay that way. I predict Eye or temple, or both, will be banned but this may turn out like the TC & DTT ban, which is to say that those were an immediate problem when they were released but by the time the ban happened those cards results were actually in decline. I don't think the first three months after a card is released, or a new deck using an old card comes into existance, is the best time to ban something. I think we could watch this until the next announcement to see if the trend continues.
I have spent the last hour sending messages directly to WotC employees over facebook about the excessive banning and have actually gotten some responses from people who say they get input into the ban list. They are defending the ban list, but the are hearing my input and some are responding directly to me and if everyone messages them maybe they will get the point.
They do not read our thread or look at our polls, twitter and Facebook may be better ways to get our opinions heard.
I'm a long time reader, first time poster. I played cascade swans when they banned bloodbraid elf, storm when the banned seething song, amulet when they banned summer bloom, and splinter twin when they banned it's namesake.
I am a little mad, and very concerned about the format. I have done a little research on wizards of the coast employees and have started sending this message to their Facebook pages, and I'll probibly do more. I just don't think R&D reads any of our comments or looks at the voter polls on other similar threads or we would see different results. Here is the message I have started sending out incase any others would echo it.
Hello, I am a long time mtg player and this is the 4th time I have been hit by a ban in the modern format. I very much enjoy the game but I and many others are concerned about the direction of the modern format. I and many others are calling for a larger card pool and unbannings while the format is continually seeing more bannings. Some decks or cards need bans, like summer bloom, but other decks that have been fine for years suddenly get banned and that seems unnessesary. The desire for a larger card pool is manifesting in the form of "no ban list modern" tourneys which are taking place in small but growing numbers. Your actions are resulting in lowering confidence in the stability of the format, and descouraging me and others from buying into the format or buying modern masters product because you may ban a key piece from a deck to spice up a pro tour.
I and others belive the answere is instead of continually banning cards from the most powerful decks, which will never stop because there will always be a most powerful deck, is to let the power level slowly rise. This would result in a exciting pro tour due to the shiny new card and decks it spawns instead of the lack of an old favorite due to a ban and the hostility that comes with bans.
I hope this is taken as constructive criticism from a friend that wants to continue to play the game with fun and joy instead of fear and a dark cloud hanging over every game I win worrying if my decks performance will result in a ban. Thank you for your time.
Hello, about a year ago as soon as the arch druid came out there was a really mean mono-green elf deck going around in standard that I am wanting to build but I can't find the deck list. I know 85 percent or so of it but I would like to know the rest. I know it was 4 nettle sentinal, 4 heritage druid, 4 llanowar elf, 4 elvish visionary, 4 arch druid, 4 primal command, 4 regal force and I think 2 coat of arms and 19 land. I am running ant queen, arbor elf and eldrazi monument to fill in spots. I will be very thankful for any help I can get.
Truthfully what would happen is the meta would shift like it always does. Decks it helps will use it while other decks will make changes to get around it or ignore it and keep doing what they do. I just don't think it will be that pervasive as you describe.
We all heard arguments for and against sotm, av, wild nacatle, Bitterblossom, ggt, Valakut, those were all eventually unbanned and didn't break anything. They are good, but not completely warping. They all caused some meta shifts but eventually created a richer environment. So what I'm trying to say is there were voices on both sides for those cards, so are there for this. Those cards are good, skirting the line of too good in some cases, and I think this falls in same category of good, maybe skirting the line, but not too good.
I'm more interested in the unban poll. Splinter twin, sfm, jtms, gsz, Preordain, BBE are the most likely to come off, but I am not sure any will come off this time. I would even be okay with dtt and mental misstep, but definetly all these things will never be allowed in the format at the same time, but a few could work.
Prediction: bans - none, unbans - none (but there should be at least one)
They do not read our thread or look at our polls, twitter and Facebook may be better ways to get our opinions heard.
I am a little mad, and very concerned about the format. I have done a little research on wizards of the coast employees and have started sending this message to their Facebook pages, and I'll probibly do more. I just don't think R&D reads any of our comments or looks at the voter polls on other similar threads or we would see different results. Here is the message I have started sending out incase any others would echo it.
Hello, I am a long time mtg player and this is the 4th time I have been hit by a ban in the modern format. I very much enjoy the game but I and many others are concerned about the direction of the modern format. I and many others are calling for a larger card pool and unbannings while the format is continually seeing more bannings. Some decks or cards need bans, like summer bloom, but other decks that have been fine for years suddenly get banned and that seems unnessesary. The desire for a larger card pool is manifesting in the form of "no ban list modern" tourneys which are taking place in small but growing numbers. Your actions are resulting in lowering confidence in the stability of the format, and descouraging me and others from buying into the format or buying modern masters product because you may ban a key piece from a deck to spice up a pro tour.
I and others belive the answere is instead of continually banning cards from the most powerful decks, which will never stop because there will always be a most powerful deck, is to let the power level slowly rise. This would result in a exciting pro tour due to the shiny new card and decks it spawns instead of the lack of an old favorite due to a ban and the hostility that comes with bans.
I hope this is taken as constructive criticism from a friend that wants to continue to play the game with fun and joy instead of fear and a dark cloud hanging over every game I win worrying if my decks performance will result in a ban. Thank you for your time.