Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet has been solid as a combination of hatebear, threat and token creator. Eldrazi Displacer I'm less happy with - the recent change in the mana rules (losing the 5c lands) means I can activate it less consistently - I'm thinking about switching it back to Restoration Angel.
Serra Ascendant is very powerful but doesn't have many synergies with the deck. If you face a lot of storm decks Eidolon of Rhetoric and Ethersworn Canonist are both solid options (although I like the 2 power and lower cmc of the Canonist better). Leonin Arbiter is a powerful hatebear but since we also play a large number of tutors I'm not sure it's at its best here. Liliana of the Veil I used to run and its a solid card to run because the discard is useful as is the removal. I removed it as Liliana, Heretical Healer has a slightly similar role but is multifunctional. I also think with the printing of Narset, the Harbinger Liliana of the Veil is unnecessary here as Narset also functions as a discard outlet but also loots, it has a better removal option covering enchantments and tapping artifacts as well, and it has an ultimate that is within reach and has great synergy with the deck.
I have never played with Attrition but it indeed has great synergy with Kalitas and is otherwise a functional sac outlet (albeit with mana cost), so if you test it I'm very interested in hearing your experiences with it.
I would run Oreskos Explorer over/alongside Knight of the White Orchid in multiplayer commander. Sure, you lose First Strike, but the opportunity to grab 2+ lands is just too good
The problem with Oreskos Explorer is that it doesn't ramp you and it requires you to be at least 3rd in the turn order for it to be playable on curve (compared with second for Knight) making it worse in my opinion, particularly if you start to factor in recurring knight of the white orchid with Alesha for continuous ramp. I'm unsure if adding it would be too much (with Tithe and Knight already) for the number of plains in the deck; but I should probably try it at some point.
Have you considered running a sunforger package? You already have some potent <4 CMC instants and Sorcs.
Also with the removal of rabblemaster is it still worth running goblin matron, or is she just a means to get kiki to start comboing off?
Sunforger is a great piece of equipment if you're playing in a slower meta, but in a competitive meta it's just much too slow. Goblin Matron is still great for getting Kiki-Jiki as you mentioned - it also gets Murderous Redcap which is important. I'm looking at adding another goblin in though for more consistency.
It's really too bad this card doesn't have an extra ability - with haste it would have a shot at constructed play as well. Or maybe hit both the creature/planeswalker and its controller.
As is it's too bad they wasted great art on a mediocre card which is only playable in limited.
I usually try to play a bit conservatively if I'm not comboing off, so with the card draw currently in the list I'm generally quite happy. Painful Truths is generally better than Read the Bones - the only time in which Read the Bones is better is if the top two cards are both not good, in which case you can draw the next two cards (of which you would only have drawn one with Painful Truths). If one of the top two is good, Read the Bones will dig as deep but draw one less. If the top two are both good, you dig less deep and you draw one less. But drawing one extra is almost always better I think.
If you feel like you are not drawing sufficient cards some other good additions can be Night's Whisper / Sign in Blood, and Humble Defector.
Battle for Zendikar / Oath of the Gatewatch Update (and it's a big one)
+ Drana, Liberator of Malakir
- Iroas God of Victory
Drana has great synergy with Alesha as she has two power and pumps most of your team before regular damage when returned or played normally. This is a form of 'protection' for your creatures as well, but it can also be a win condition with enough creatures on the board.
+ Painful Truths
- Mentor of the Meek
Mentor is not a bad card but its relatively slow and requires six mana (or five + Alesha trigger) to beat out Painful Truths, which is why I've decided to switch the two.
+ Shambling Vents
- Lavaclaw Reaches
Shambling Vents having lifelink makes it a more useful manland for this deck as there are a number of cards in the deck that cost life. White is also relatively more important than red.
+ Eldrazi Displacer
- Restoration Angel
I think this is very close - Restoration Angel allows for more combos and is more mana efficient on the first try, on the other hand Eldrazi Displacer can take over games through reusing its ability. I think the threat Displacer poses with the many ETB cards to take over a game as well as its greater all round utility make it the better card. The list has enough colorless sources as well to be able to use the ability consistently.
+ Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
- Goblin Rabblemaster
Both produce tokens but Kalitas has lifelink and has an ability that disrupts a fair number of decks. His sacrifice ability is just gravy to enable him to become a huge threat if you have some creatures to spare.
+ Revenge of the Meek
- Shadows of the Past
I found that Shadows of the Past was good but at its best if I was already winning. If I had little on the board (and thus little control over what dies) it became quite bad. Revenge of the Meek can help you catch up or seal the win, and with nearly all the creatures in the list being 3 power or less (excluding situations with Archangel of Thune / Drana, Liberator of Malakir) this list can capitalize on it greatly.
+ Goblin Sharpshooter
- Malicious Affliction
I found that the deck can have issues dealing with large numbers of tokens or small utility creatures - something which Malicious Affliction doesn't really solve. Through token sacrifices the Sharpshooter can also deal with larger creatures. It can also serve as a win condition in a variety of combos with infinite dies triggers giving it combo potential. And lastly its a goblin and a 1/1 so it can be found by both Imperial Recruiter and Goblin Matron.
I think both halves would see a lot more play than the split card is - even if the split card is quite good. Both modes are useful and should always have targets, but limiting it to Naya decks which generally prefer creature answers and run their own equipment/auras makes the card difficult to include there.
Would 750 euros be a good price to buy an English Tabernacle in NM- condition?
And is buying an English Tabernacle a better longterm investment than an Italian one?
Thanks in advance for your help.
I just wanted to show some numbers I found about how often off-color fetchlands occur in the largest dataset on commander decks we have available. According to Scoeri’s data sets on all the decks updated/posted on mtgsalvation in the last year (2160) the following numbers of off-color fetchlands are being played (I’m assuming that every deck with an on-color fetchland will also have the corresponding shock dual):
In total this equals 1197 off-color fetches or an average of about 1 per 2 decks.
Overall we can conclude that off-color fetches are quite common and hardly the terrain of ‘competitive’ players only. It would also seem, judging by the high usage of KTK fetches and low use of Zendikar fetches that availability plays a strong role in determining their usage in off-color decks.
If we look at this per color/color combination it is even more interesting. (Do note that some combinations are excluded because of lack of data).
Out of 99 mono blue decks, 18 play Polluted Delta (18%) and 18 play Flooded Strand (18%)
Out of 148 mono black decks, 34 play Polluted Delta (23%) and 31 play Bloodstained Mire (23%)
Out of 140 mono red decks, 32 play Bloodstained Mire (23%) and 30 Wooded Foothills (21%)
Out of 103 mono green decks, 29 play Windswept Heath (28%), 29 play Wooded Foothills (28%), 28 play Verdant Catacombs (27%) and 27 play Misty Rainforest (26%)
There was not enough data for mono white, but in all other mono color combinations 20-25% of decks have off-color fetches. Note especially the high incidence of fetches in mono-green, which was already noted in the thread due to the many synergies of fetches with cards such as Lotus Cobra and Titania.
From these I think we can conclude that a large subset of decks (at least 25% on average) include off-color fetches (compared to about 50% for on-color fetches). Judging by the relative ratios between the number of off-color fetches to on-color fetches played (about 1:2), it would seem that among those players using fetches, at least half (likely a much larger portion due to not every player playing all off-color fetches and there being 6 off-color compared to 1 on-color) use off-color fetches. This would suggest that functionality for a large portion of the player base is more important than flavor. Availability of fetches (particularly the Zendikar fetches) seem to be the main limit to how often off-color fetches are played rather than any flavor concerns.
All of these uncommons are quite cool and some of these can see play in Standard/EDH as well, but the art on these, particularly Weapons Trainer and Baloth Null is really disappointing.
You mention that fetches aren't good for mana fixing in dual colored, stating the possibility of other land cycles to cast your spells, but most of these are much worse than the fetch lands. Let's say I'm playing Karlov. I want to cast my general on turn two every game, but I also want to cast one of my nine life linkers on turn one. Without fetches this becomes much more difficult as all of a sudden I lose over half my available untapped dual lands. In any case though fetch lands don't preclude you from using any other dual land cards with synergies with other cards in your deck.
And I don't really see how this is a casual versus competitive debate. I have highly competitive edh decks and I have more casual ones. In every case though I want to avoid mana screw and be able to play the spells I want to when I want to regardless of if it's ad nauseam in combo or a ramp spell in a more casual deck on turn 3. If players have access to fetches they should play them as they will always make them more consistent (excluding mono color); this applies more broadly. Any mana base without fetches is suboptimal and any anecdotes of mana bases working well without off color fetches doesn't in any way change the fact that each of those mana bases would be significantly better with off color fetches.
Overall though I think the key question is why a flavor reason counting for part of the player base would weigh more strongly than playability factors that affect everyone's deck in a positive way (if played). Fetches aren't cards which hinder other people from playing their game, they don't cause the game to revolve around them; they help you to play your game whether that's casual or competitive.
@cryogen to respond to your post
#1: I think you're zooming in to much on one point of my argument here. My main intent here was that this change favors 5 color over 2/3 color decks, which should never be the goal. Some may choose a blank 5 color general but this needn't be the case - if you're playing lands for example you may well want to choose to play Child of Alara (a valid general for the archetype) over something like Damia. This does not necessarily mean disregarding the commander.
#4: I was thinking in line with the hypothetical situation that this change would be implemented in the near future. In that line of thought I feel for the reasons listed that this is an arbitrary and bad time for the change.
#5: I feel cards like Muscle Burst are a bad comparison: for one they were always bad in commander because of their design rather than a ruling, and secondly they're niche cards rather than cards that are played in a large number of decks. Is flavor a valid reason to ban cards in any case though - as my post and others have mentioned there are a number of cards which are not flavorful at all but are allowed in the format. Extort is hardly flavorful in a Boros deck, but it's playable anyway. And what we're dealing with here is not a universal sense of flavor but that of the rules committee and part of the player base - nothing I've seen illustrates to me that it is a majority of the player base.
@LouCypher: I gave a pretty comprehensive list on the previous page of my arguments against an off color fetch ban. If you find them convincing or not is another question. I would be happy however to hear any arguments why this change would be positive for the format in any shape or form aside from aesthetic reasons.
Overall though I really dislike this idea that the RC is only there for the middle of the road EDH players. In the end the RC determines the rules for everyone as most people/LGS abide by them.
If the RC dislikes off color fetches it would be much better for them to just house ban them rather than forcing the issue by banning them for everyone. It should not be the RC's place to ban cards for flavor reasons.
I sincerely hope that off-color fetches won't be banned at any point in the future. I concede that they are perhaps not aesthetically pleasing. And if we're discussing flavor there are many cards which are not very flavorful but see play in every EDH deck (City of Brass, Sol Ring). My arguments against the change would be the following:
1. It hurts the consistency of 2 and 3 color decks very hard, while leaving 5 color decks untouched. I don't think any change should be made which helps 5 color decks more than other color combinations. As Moxnix previously noted, many players (particularly more competitive ones) would be prone to start choosing 5 color generals instead of 3 color generals for the benefits of a much stronger mana base. And otherwise 5 color goodstuff decks are likely to become much stronger in any case (both for casual and competitive metas).
2. It hurts enemy/wedge decks more than allied/shard decks. Enemy decks relied on fetches to have a consistent mana base as there is a lack of enemy lands. Enemy decks would have around 6-7 duals and one fetch and would have fill out the rest of their manabase with basics, leading to great inconsistency. Playing double mana costs before turn 4 would become much more difficult.
3. It will lead to a proliferation of 5 color lands being included in every deck. With fetches banned 5 color lands will be even more important. You will start to see City of Brass and Mana Confluence being played in many more decks than is the case now because of the lack of good alternatives.
3. It nerfs a very popular mechanic (landfall) to nearly unplayable levels. Omnath as a general becomes much worse, as does Titania (although not landfall). It also hurts Mazirek, another recent general. Boros generals take a hit too as Crucible + fetches was one of the best ways to generate card advantage in the format. And Crucible itself will still be used, now it will just be used to return Wasteland/Strip Mine/Tectonic Edge to hurt everyone's more unstable manabases.
4. The moment for the change seems arbitrary. Since the conception of the format fetches have perhaps been a flavor fail and the issue should have been resolved then, rather than now. The reprints of khan fetches, shock duals and the recent tangolands have made more solid manabases more accessible than they ever were before. In addition I would imagine many people have bought into fetches with this goal in mind. Although I understand this is not a major factor for the majority of EDH players, implementing a change like this just after likely quite a number of EDH players have invested into expedition lands to foil out their decks would be callously bad timing.
5. There seem to be no tangible benefits aside from flavor considerations or perhaps time requirements for shuffling/searching. Are flavor considerations truly to be a criterion for banning a card? On design flavor hybrid cards should be allowed in decks that only play one of the colors but this is excluded on the basis of color identity. And if time requirements are a consideration for banning why aren't the most broken tutors which are played in every deck in their colors or Sensei's Divining Top on the banlist?
6. With the number of reactions and posts both here and on reddit in such a short amount of time it would seem that forum posters are overwhelmingly negative about this change. I know that some people dislike playing off-color fetches for flavor reasons, but is this really something that the community at large feels. Excluding any large-scale surveys being done, I would imagine that there is no real way to know this as a basis for banning.
8. A change like this would make EDH less consistent with other formats, of which many are based around fetchland + dual interactions. It would also create many situations with other cards like Farseek and Terramorphic Expanse. Shouldn't this then also affect lands like City of Brass which can hardly be aesthetically pleasing in two color decks either? Overall it seems like a change that would just open up a hole can of worms.
9. Financially I think it has very little effect on deck cost. At low cost the Mirage fetchlands and panoramas already existed as slow replacements. It would likely drive up the price of other dual lands without recent reprints such as the original Zendikar man lands and filter lands as these become more important for mana consistency after an eventual banning. Prices of fetches and shocks are also currently quite low.
I understand that the post that instigated all of this discussion does not mean a change is in the pipeline, but I think it is important that the community expresses its reasons for not wanting such a change.
I really think the red confluence should have had the red draw effect on it rather than hitting opponents for two damage. Hitting two artifacts and conditionally drawing a card would have made it much better.
Overall though I feel like all the instant speed ones are playable and very good while the ones that are not instant speed are not as good by far. Why they couldn't all be instant speed I don't really know as none would have been overpowered as instants.
It can be pretty insane ramp in an affinity deck or in decks with other ways of cheating creatures out. If you have creatures in your deck but youre going all in on combos (such as Griselbrand before banning) it's a great card.
You need to have at least cmc 4 creatures to sac to it and a need for a lot of black or generic mana though for it to become worthwhile.
I'm currently building a UW control deck in which I want to run Academy Rector . However, as it's a control deck with very few creatures, I won't really get great value out of a lot of common sacrifice outlets. So I'm looking for cards that either have little to no opportunity cost (High Market / Miren, the Moaning Well), have other functions but can kill Rector as well (Wrath of God), or are super efficient (Flash). And preferably of course low mana if possible so that you can play both in the same turn. Which ones are you currently using?
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet has been solid as a combination of hatebear, threat and token creator. Eldrazi Displacer I'm less happy with - the recent change in the mana rules (losing the 5c lands) means I can activate it less consistently - I'm thinking about switching it back to Restoration Angel.
Serra Ascendant is very powerful but doesn't have many synergies with the deck. If you face a lot of storm decks Eidolon of Rhetoric and Ethersworn Canonist are both solid options (although I like the 2 power and lower cmc of the Canonist better). Leonin Arbiter is a powerful hatebear but since we also play a large number of tutors I'm not sure it's at its best here. Liliana of the Veil I used to run and its a solid card to run because the discard is useful as is the removal. I removed it as Liliana, Heretical Healer has a slightly similar role but is multifunctional. I also think with the printing of Narset, the Harbinger Liliana of the Veil is unnecessary here as Narset also functions as a discard outlet but also loots, it has a better removal option covering enchantments and tapping artifacts as well, and it has an ultimate that is within reach and has great synergy with the deck.
I have never played with Attrition but it indeed has great synergy with Kalitas and is otherwise a functional sac outlet (albeit with mana cost), so if you test it I'm very interested in hearing your experiences with it.
The problem with Oreskos Explorer is that it doesn't ramp you and it requires you to be at least 3rd in the turn order for it to be playable on curve (compared with second for Knight) making it worse in my opinion, particularly if you start to factor in recurring knight of the white orchid with Alesha for continuous ramp. I'm unsure if adding it would be too much (with Tithe and Knight already) for the number of plains in the deck; but I should probably try it at some point.
Sunforger is a great piece of equipment if you're playing in a slower meta, but in a competitive meta it's just much too slow. Goblin Matron is still great for getting Kiki-Jiki as you mentioned - it also gets Murderous Redcap which is important. I'm looking at adding another goblin in though for more consistency.
As is it's too bad they wasted great art on a mediocre card which is only playable in limited.
Painful Truths is generally better than Read the Bones - the only time in which Read the Bones is better is if the top two cards are both not good, in which case you can draw the next two cards (of which you would only have drawn one with Painful Truths). If one of the top two is good, Read the Bones will dig as deep but draw one less. If the top two are both good, you dig less deep and you draw one less. But drawing one extra is almost always better I think.
If you feel like you are not drawing sufficient cards some other good additions can be Night's Whisper / Sign in Blood, and Humble Defector.
+ Drana, Liberator of Malakir
- Iroas God of Victory
Drana has great synergy with Alesha as she has two power and pumps most of your team before regular damage when returned or played normally. This is a form of 'protection' for your creatures as well, but it can also be a win condition with enough creatures on the board.
+ Painful Truths
- Mentor of the Meek
Mentor is not a bad card but its relatively slow and requires six mana (or five + Alesha trigger) to beat out Painful Truths, which is why I've decided to switch the two.
+ Shambling Vents
- Lavaclaw Reaches
Shambling Vents having lifelink makes it a more useful manland for this deck as there are a number of cards in the deck that cost life. White is also relatively more important than red.
+ Eldrazi Displacer
- Restoration Angel
I think this is very close - Restoration Angel allows for more combos and is more mana efficient on the first try, on the other hand Eldrazi Displacer can take over games through reusing its ability. I think the threat Displacer poses with the many ETB cards to take over a game as well as its greater all round utility make it the better card. The list has enough colorless sources as well to be able to use the ability consistently.
+ Caves of Koilos
- Isolated Chapel
This is mainly an upgrade to have another land that produces colorless mana.
+ Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
- Goblin Rabblemaster
Both produce tokens but Kalitas has lifelink and has an ability that disrupts a fair number of decks. His sacrifice ability is just gravy to enable him to become a huge threat if you have some creatures to spare.
+ Revenge of the Meek
- Shadows of the Past
I found that Shadows of the Past was good but at its best if I was already winning. If I had little on the board (and thus little control over what dies) it became quite bad. Revenge of the Meek can help you catch up or seal the win, and with nearly all the creatures in the list being 3 power or less (excluding situations with Archangel of Thune / Drana, Liberator of Malakir) this list can capitalize on it greatly.
+ Goblin Sharpshooter
- Malicious Affliction
I found that the deck can have issues dealing with large numbers of tokens or small utility creatures - something which Malicious Affliction doesn't really solve. Through token sacrifices the Sharpshooter can also deal with larger creatures. It can also serve as a win condition in a variety of combos with infinite dies triggers giving it combo potential. And lastly its a goblin and a 1/1 so it can be found by both Imperial Recruiter and Goblin Matron.
Lastly I'm looking to add in Siege-Gang Commander, possibly to replace Elspeth, Knight Errant. With Eldrazi Displacer it forms a powerful tandem to produce three tokens for 2C and it's a very powerful card to recur with Alesha.
And is buying an English Tabernacle a better longterm investment than an Italian one?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Polluted Delta - 152 off-color inclusions (468 Polluted Delta – 316 Watery Grave) 32%
Wooded Foothills – 220 (460 – 240) 48%
Flooded Strand – 131 (446 – 315) 29%
Windswept Heath – 154 (435-281) 35%
Bloodstained Mire – 196 (419-223) 47%
Misty Rainforest – 48 (356-308) 13%
Verdant Catacombs – 75 (352-277) 21%
Marsh Flats – 89 (350-261) 25%
Arid Mesa – 90 (324-234)
Scalding Tarn – 42 (306-264)
In total this equals 1197 off-color fetches or an average of about 1 per 2 decks.
Overall we can conclude that off-color fetches are quite common and hardly the terrain of ‘competitive’ players only. It would also seem, judging by the high usage of KTK fetches and low use of Zendikar fetches that availability plays a strong role in determining their usage in off-color decks.
If we look at this per color/color combination it is even more interesting. (Do note that some combinations are excluded because of lack of data).
Out of 99 mono blue decks, 18 play Polluted Delta (18%) and 18 play Flooded Strand (18%)
Out of 148 mono black decks, 34 play Polluted Delta (23%) and 31 play Bloodstained Mire (23%)
Out of 140 mono red decks, 32 play Bloodstained Mire (23%) and 30 Wooded Foothills (21%)
Out of 103 mono green decks, 29 play Windswept Heath (28%), 29 play Wooded Foothills (28%), 28 play Verdant Catacombs (27%) and 27 play Misty Rainforest (26%)
There was not enough data for mono white, but in all other mono color combinations 20-25% of decks have off-color fetches. Note especially the high incidence of fetches in mono-green, which was already noted in the thread due to the many synergies of fetches with cards such as Lotus Cobra and Titania.
For UW out of 78 decks:
18 Arid Mesa – 23%
18 Polluted Delta – 23%
17 Marsh Flats – 22%
16 Scalding Tarn – 21%
42 Flooded Strand – 54%
For UB out of 78 decks
15 Bloodstained Mire – 19%
49 Polluted Delta – 63%
For BR out of 57 decks:
13 Wooded Foothills – 23%
12 Polluted Delta – 21%
9 Arid Mesa – 16%
9 Marsh Flats – 16%
31 Bloodstained Mire – 54%
For RG out 68 decks:
11 Bloodstained Mire – 16%
35 Wooded Foothills – 51%
For GW out of 75 decks
25 Wooded Foothills – 33%
20 Flooded Strand – 27%
18 Marsh Flats – 24%
18 Verdant Catacombs – 24%
47 Windswept Heath – 63%
For UR out of 53 decks:
17 Misty Rainforest – 32%
17 Flooded Strand – 32%
15 Polluted Delta – 28%
14 Wooded Foothills – 26%
14 Arid Mesa – 26%
12 Bloodstained Mire – 23%
24 Scalding Tarn – 45%
For UG out of 53 decks:
13 Flooded Strand – 25%
12 Polluted Delta – 23%
11 Wooded Foothills – 21%
18 Misty Rainforest – 34%
For GB out of 64 decks:
16 Polluted Delta – 25%
14 Wooded Foothills – 22%
13 Bloodstained Mire – 20%
13 Windswept Heath – 20%
25 Verdant Catacombs – 39%
UWG out of 92 decks:
18 Polluted Delta – 20%
43 Windswept Heath – 47%
42 Flooded Strand – 46%
30 Misty Rainforest – 33%
BRG out of 57 decks:
13 Windswept Heath – 23%
31 Bloodstained Mire – 55%
30 Wooded Foothills – 53%
25 Verdant Catacombs – 44%
UWR out of 89 decks:
18 Windswept Heath – 20%
20 Wooded Foothills – 22%
27 Arid Mesa – 30%
27 Scalding Tarn – 30%
50 Flooded Strand – 56%
BWR out of 74 decks:
16 Windswept Heath – 22%
18 Wooded Foothills – 24%
16 Flooded Strand – 22%
15 Polluted Delta – 21%
40 Bloodstained Mire – 54%
36 Arid Mesa – 49%
36 Marsh Flats – 49%
GWB out of 72 decks
21 Bloodstained Mire – 29%
21 Wooded Foothills – 29%
21 Flooded Strand – 29%
18 Misty Rainforest – 25%
18 Polluted Delta – 25%
49 Windswept Heath – 68%
42 Verdant Catacombs – 58%
42 Marsh Flats – 58%
BUG out of 97 decks:
33 Bloodstained Mire – 34%
30 Wooded Foothills – 31%
30 Windswept Heath – 31%
28 Flooded Strand – 29%
21 Marsh Flats – 22%
20 Scalding Tarn – 21%
62 Polluted Delta – 64%
43 Misty Rainforest – 44%
41 Verdant Catacombs – 42%
From these I think we can conclude that a large subset of decks (at least 25% on average) include off-color fetches (compared to about 50% for on-color fetches). Judging by the relative ratios between the number of off-color fetches to on-color fetches played (about 1:2), it would seem that among those players using fetches, at least half (likely a much larger portion due to not every player playing all off-color fetches and there being 6 off-color compared to 1 on-color) use off-color fetches. This would suggest that functionality for a large portion of the player base is more important than flavor. Availability of fetches (particularly the Zendikar fetches) seem to be the main limit to how often off-color fetches are played rather than any flavor concerns.
And I don't really see how this is a casual versus competitive debate. I have highly competitive edh decks and I have more casual ones. In every case though I want to avoid mana screw and be able to play the spells I want to when I want to regardless of if it's ad nauseam in combo or a ramp spell in a more casual deck on turn 3. If players have access to fetches they should play them as they will always make them more consistent (excluding mono color); this applies more broadly. Any mana base without fetches is suboptimal and any anecdotes of mana bases working well without off color fetches doesn't in any way change the fact that each of those mana bases would be significantly better with off color fetches.
Overall though I think the key question is why a flavor reason counting for part of the player base would weigh more strongly than playability factors that affect everyone's deck in a positive way (if played). Fetches aren't cards which hinder other people from playing their game, they don't cause the game to revolve around them; they help you to play your game whether that's casual or competitive.
#1: I think you're zooming in to much on one point of my argument here. My main intent here was that this change favors 5 color over 2/3 color decks, which should never be the goal. Some may choose a blank 5 color general but this needn't be the case - if you're playing lands for example you may well want to choose to play Child of Alara (a valid general for the archetype) over something like Damia. This does not necessarily mean disregarding the commander.
#4: I was thinking in line with the hypothetical situation that this change would be implemented in the near future. In that line of thought I feel for the reasons listed that this is an arbitrary and bad time for the change.
#5: I feel cards like Muscle Burst are a bad comparison: for one they were always bad in commander because of their design rather than a ruling, and secondly they're niche cards rather than cards that are played in a large number of decks. Is flavor a valid reason to ban cards in any case though - as my post and others have mentioned there are a number of cards which are not flavorful at all but are allowed in the format. Extort is hardly flavorful in a Boros deck, but it's playable anyway. And what we're dealing with here is not a universal sense of flavor but that of the rules committee and part of the player base - nothing I've seen illustrates to me that it is a majority of the player base.
@LouCypher: I gave a pretty comprehensive list on the previous page of my arguments against an off color fetch ban. If you find them convincing or not is another question. I would be happy however to hear any arguments why this change would be positive for the format in any shape or form aside from aesthetic reasons.
Overall though I really dislike this idea that the RC is only there for the middle of the road EDH players. In the end the RC determines the rules for everyone as most people/LGS abide by them.
If the RC dislikes off color fetches it would be much better for them to just house ban them rather than forcing the issue by banning them for everyone. It should not be the RC's place to ban cards for flavor reasons.
1. It hurts the consistency of 2 and 3 color decks very hard, while leaving 5 color decks untouched. I don't think any change should be made which helps 5 color decks more than other color combinations. As Moxnix previously noted, many players (particularly more competitive ones) would be prone to start choosing 5 color generals instead of 3 color generals for the benefits of a much stronger mana base. And otherwise 5 color goodstuff decks are likely to become much stronger in any case (both for casual and competitive metas).
2. It hurts enemy/wedge decks more than allied/shard decks. Enemy decks relied on fetches to have a consistent mana base as there is a lack of enemy lands. Enemy decks would have around 6-7 duals and one fetch and would have fill out the rest of their manabase with basics, leading to great inconsistency. Playing double mana costs before turn 4 would become much more difficult.
3. It will lead to a proliferation of 5 color lands being included in every deck. With fetches banned 5 color lands will be even more important. You will start to see City of Brass and Mana Confluence being played in many more decks than is the case now because of the lack of good alternatives.
3. It nerfs a very popular mechanic (landfall) to nearly unplayable levels. Omnath as a general becomes much worse, as does Titania (although not landfall). It also hurts Mazirek, another recent general. Boros generals take a hit too as Crucible + fetches was one of the best ways to generate card advantage in the format. And Crucible itself will still be used, now it will just be used to return Wasteland/Strip Mine/Tectonic Edge to hurt everyone's more unstable manabases.
4. The moment for the change seems arbitrary. Since the conception of the format fetches have perhaps been a flavor fail and the issue should have been resolved then, rather than now. The reprints of khan fetches, shock duals and the recent tangolands have made more solid manabases more accessible than they ever were before. In addition I would imagine many people have bought into fetches with this goal in mind. Although I understand this is not a major factor for the majority of EDH players, implementing a change like this just after likely quite a number of EDH players have invested into expedition lands to foil out their decks would be callously bad timing.
5. There seem to be no tangible benefits aside from flavor considerations or perhaps time requirements for shuffling/searching. Are flavor considerations truly to be a criterion for banning a card? On design flavor hybrid cards should be allowed in decks that only play one of the colors but this is excluded on the basis of color identity. And if time requirements are a consideration for banning why aren't the most broken tutors which are played in every deck in their colors or Sensei's Divining Top on the banlist?
6. With the number of reactions and posts both here and on reddit in such a short amount of time it would seem that forum posters are overwhelmingly negative about this change. I know that some people dislike playing off-color fetches for flavor reasons, but is this really something that the community at large feels. Excluding any large-scale surveys being done, I would imagine that there is no real way to know this as a basis for banning.
7. It hurts a large number of interactions that are based on shuffle effects. Examples are with blue cantrips, Sensei's Diving Top, Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library, Unexpectedly Absent, Second Sunrise, and there are many more. It would also ban Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in non-black decks where it either functions as a useful piece of mana development (colorless decks) or as combo piece in for example Linvala, Keeper of Silence. Furthermore it negatively affects interactions with the graveyard such as the aforementioned Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam and delve spells.
8. A change like this would make EDH less consistent with other formats, of which many are based around fetchland + dual interactions. It would also create many situations with other cards like Farseek and Terramorphic Expanse. Shouldn't this then also affect lands like City of Brass which can hardly be aesthetically pleasing in two color decks either? Overall it seems like a change that would just open up a hole can of worms.
9. Financially I think it has very little effect on deck cost. At low cost the Mirage fetchlands and panoramas already existed as slow replacements. It would likely drive up the price of other dual lands without recent reprints such as the original Zendikar man lands and filter lands as these become more important for mana consistency after an eventual banning. Prices of fetches and shocks are also currently quite low.
I understand that the post that instigated all of this discussion does not mean a change is in the pipeline, but I think it is important that the community expresses its reasons for not wanting such a change.
Overall though I feel like all the instant speed ones are playable and very good while the ones that are not instant speed are not as good by far. Why they couldn't all be instant speed I don't really know as none would have been overpowered as instants.
You need to have at least cmc 4 creatures to sac to it and a need for a lot of black or generic mana though for it to become worthwhile.