MTG Salvation

Quote from Idrareb »

This thread finally gets an interesting topic to talk about after a whole season of dead air and we ruin it by trying to define tempo and combo...

A few people said a few pages back that BGx was dead or tier w after the DRS ban.... wut? It didnt dominate for ONE GP and that was because it was misbuilt (courser is a trap card in modern bgx). Once twin took up a solid third of the top 16, BGx (particularly Junk) was pretty much the best deck in modern.

BGx will still be strong in a post Delve meta the decks just need to restructure themselves. You know, adapt. Delver is crushing Junk right now because they got a new toy (cruise) to fight against a deck that is still playing the exact same 75 it played pre khans. Delver plays 12 creatures and some decks are even cutting snapcaster and counterspells to be more proactive and draw more cards from cruise. Junk can and will adapt to that. Kill all the delvers stonewall the swiftspear and pyromancers and the deck cant win no matter hhow many cards it draws. Does junk get annihilated by Dork Storm? Yes. GOOD. Having a tier 1 deck that crushes another tier 1 deck is called BALANCE. I play twin. Lre Dig Through Time my junk matchup was like 80-20 maybe 90-10 in their favor aka hellabad. Now its still not great but the numbers are spiking.

Its just like someone said earlier: if pod had just been printed in this set people would be marching towards seattle with pitchforks and torches. Just give it time to adapt and it will. These cards are not broken and give blue a push that it did in fact need prior to khans. Golgari was the best guild to start your deck with, not close.

This is exactly what I have been thinking, but you've articulated it way better than I ever could. Thanks!

Liliana of the Veil, it should've been you!

Quote from Shmanka »

From all the podcasts, and the talks of some people I respect there seems to be a consensus; most people claimed if they were to ban Treasure Cruise that Dig Through Time had to go with it. They do not want a Blue dominated format, and I can also envision Dig Through Time helping tremendously in strategies like Scapeshift and Splinter Twin to be degrees above anything else available in the card pool.

At first I didn't appreciate the ban on DTT, now after some level of reflection I am just truthfully more disappointed that Bloodbraid Elf and Sword of the Meek didn't come off the list yet, although with the discussions I have had - I have a higher level of hope that is easily possible in the near future.

Theorycrafting is theorycrafting. The effect of a TC + Pod ban on the meta is absolutely debatable. The next announcement is barely over two months from now; it would have been fine to see how the meta adapted during that short period. By banning DTT, Wizards shows that they are willing to ban a card with no supporting data which is a very concerning thought.

Quote from Valanarch »

Dig is very powerful in any sort of combo deck, just like Tarmogoyf in any sort of Midrange deck and Lightning Bolt in any sort of aggro deck. Cards should not be banned for being good in decks. They should be banned for breaking the format. Dig didn't do that. It should have been allowed to exist in Modern without Cruise to see if it would break the format.

This is my issue with the ban as well. TC and Pod appear to be data-based decisions, both in the (admittedly short) Wizards explanation of the bans, and just generally from our knowledge of the format. DTT, however, appears to be a ban based purely on Wizards speculation and theorycrafting. I'm fine with data-driven bans and I would argue that other players should be too. They are predictable, justifiable, and are in some way tied to objective qualities about the format. But bans that happen because Wizards feels a certain way about a card are problematic. They are unpredictable, much harder to justify, and can come off as highly subjective. That is not good for a format that is supposed to be nonrotating where powerful strategies and cards are supposed to flourish.

Quote from Billiondegree »

I think the changes are fine. The delve spells are both pretty busted in a format with fetchlands and other cheap cards to fill up the graveyard. Dig through Time is especially very powerful in any sort of combo deck, and being 2 mana instant speed just put it over the top

I actually think Dig is more powerful than Cruise and the latter could have stayed but I agree with what happened

Pod is a repeatable tutor. Wizards has made that very clear that such things often are met with bans

Dig is very powerful in any sort of combo deck, just like Tarmogoyf in any sort of Midrange deck and Lightning Bolt in any sort of aggro deck. Cards should not be banned for being good in decks. They should be banned for breaking the format. Dig didn't do that. It should have been allowed to exist in Modern without Cruise to see if it would break the format.

Quote from Jermo48 »

Quote from Valanarch »

Quote from Jermo48 »

The Pod ban is obviously idiotic, and I struggle against pod mightily with a few of my favorite decks. The DTT and TC bans were clearly necessary. Nearly free cards that give you that much card advantage aren't fun or fair - sorry to their fans. It's completely dishonest to suggest that a TC ban wouldn't have just led to DTT replacing it in almost every situation without a noticeable drop in the power level of the decks at all.

Burn can't splash for Dig Through Time like it could for Cruise and Dig being 2 mana isn't good for pure UR Delver. It would have been a lower power-level, and it at least deserved a chance.

Harder to cast, better results. Delver regularly ended up ripping a cantrip, a land and one meaningful spell with TC. They basically always get two meaningful spells with DTT. I've seen almost no difference in my odds against delver lists with TC and delver lists with DTT.

That is true in the WUR and RUG Delver lists, but in straight UR Delver the card quality is so low that you would rather have a 1 mana card-draw spell than 2 spells out of 7 for 2-mana. That's why Cruise saw play over Dig in UR Delver. That's why Dig wouldn't perfectly replace Cruise in UR Delver.

Quote from Lemonbuster »

I mean the pod players i understand, but how can TC and DTT players really be too upset to play? How much could they have really invested because of those cards? TC wasn't worth anything really, and DTT is played as a 4-of in standard to that price shouldnt get hit too hard. Not to mention decks that played TC existed before TC, and now that they have to play fair people won't even bother? That's weird to me. Any deck using dig was perfectly competitive before it was printed as well (scapeshift, twin, uwr, ect) so i'd say a noticeable drop in those players says something about them as people and less about the health of the format.

And if you can't get tournaments started because of a decline in pod players, then that alone should let you know it was too popular. Endless Pod mirrors at the fnm level? yuck.

I am upset because Dig Through Time didn't deserve to be banned. It was banned because it might have an unwanted effect on the meta, not because it had an effect on the meta. That is unfair. It should have had time to prove whether it needed to be banned. Also, it is honestly my favorite card ever. I was playing WUR Delver with it in Modern and brewed an Esper Midrange deck that I was on the verge of buying that ran it. I am buying Jeskai Tokens with it in Standard. I opened it at both the Khans of Tarkir Prerelease and the Fate Reforged prerelease. My favorite Legacy deck is Miracles, which played it over Cruise. I love the card, and since it wasn't breaking anything, a ban was something that I did not want.

Quote from Redlimit »

Honestly, the problem with Dig Through Time is that it really should never have been made. Going 7 cards deep and getting to keep 2 (regardless of the setup or cost) is just something that a brand new Magic card should not be able to do. Impulse style effects have always been combo enablers and they are likely just killing Dig now before it runs away with anything.

That is exactly the problem. They are killing it because it is theoretically broken, not because of actual results. That is not a fair thing to do. If a card isn't breaking the format through causing logistical problems, causing one deck to dominate, making other colors splash for it, or breaking the turn 4 rule, it shouldn't be banned. Dig did none of that. The best that Wizards could come up with was the argument that it would replace Cruise perfectly, which they had no way of knowing.

Quote from traderjoe »

Pod got the axe because it was an abused tutor. Wizards hate tutors because it makes a deck consistent (see GSZ). Since pod decks come armed with a toolbox of stuff to handle all kinds of situations, all one had to do was tutor for the tool.

Dig Through Time got banned because it worked a bit like ponder and brainstorm. If ponder and brainstorm got banned, then so should Dig.

Seems consistent to me.

Just my 2 cents.

Brainstorm isn't Modern legal, so it was never banned. Also, Preordain and Ponder were banned for making combo decks too consistent. Dig certainly helped with that, but it was not broken. Even Preordain is a card that theoretically didn't need to be banned, it was just caught up in the backlash against UR Combo decks after PT Philadelphia.

On this day, Wizards have sent a clear message, "If you want to have fun playing with blue cards, go play legacy."

I don't understand the DTT ban. This quote from Wizards is flat out untrue:
"In Modern, these cards are easy replacements for one another—while a Delver deck might use Treasure Cruise over Dig Through Time, banning one but not the other would do little to change the deck. Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise are banned."

TC and Pod ban make sense.

Lack of meaningful unbans is ridiculous.

Free Dig Through Time!

Treasure Cruise getting the axe was not surprising. I said right from the beginning that the card was poorly thought out and a design mistake.
Too bad about Dig Through Time though. I felt that that one was fine as it was.

And well Birthing Pod
Everybody knew that it is a problem card that would have to be banned eventually. It's surprising that Wizards thinks that time is now though.

Quote from Darkbrew »

Honestly GGT should have never been on. It wont do anything.

Why does dig get banned? THe card isnt great for delver and it gives control SOMETHING. A deck like dredgevine can make a real run at it here now. It overruns other midrange decks and thats all its gonna be with some Twin and Tron.

As a Delver player, I will say that Dig does still work in the slower 3-color versions of Delver that aren't just Gut Shot and Thought Scour. I can understand why they might still be worried, but they should have waited and seen. This is banning Preordain and Ponder at the same time all over again.