I've decided to move from Mana Leak to Rune Snag because they get better as you use them.
There are a few problems with Rune Snag over Mana Leak. First is the obvious all in plan you kind of need to accompany Rune Snag. In order for Rune Snag to be good, you want to see more than one every game, which means you'll want to run 4. Most decks I have seen run 3 Mana Leak, so you need to remove another card to clear up that slot for the fourth Snag. Second is the information you give your opponent. If you play a Mana Leak your opponent doesn't know how many you have in the deck. Is it a miser's one of? Do you have a full play set? It's unknown information to them. When you cast a Rune Snag however your opponent immediately knows you have 4 of them in the deck because of the nature of how the card works. Then there is the issue of Snapcaster. Now I know our deck isn't all in on Tiago like other decks, but Snaps does help us use the spells we have already used when we need them again in a pinch. If you need to Snap a Rune Snag when you only have 1 in the yard, it's just strictly worse than Snapping a Mana Leak.
I think to compare the two we need to look at them like this:
Mana Leak - Counters unless they pay 3 100% of the time
Rune Snag - Counters unless they pay 2 70% of the time, counters unless they pay 4 30% of the time
I don't see anyone ever banking on being able to counter for 6 or 8, that is just silly wishful thinking, and Magical Christmas Land. Our best case scenarios with Snag are to be able to cast one or Snap one while already having used one (used 2 in the case of Snapping). Best case with Mana Leak is to just have the damn thing.
With concerns to removal being dead draws, I'm getting the feeling that is why people have started playing Pack Rat in the deck. Just like it's used for in Standard right now it allows you to turn your dead draws into threats on the board.
Mind you I still don't like Pack Rat for the deck, but I do understand it.
I would assume it would effect the meta in some way yes. As to how...well not quite sure. Since people notice a lot of creature decks in the Top 8, like we are, people might discuss running more removal, and through that effect push back a lot of the creature decks. I feel that making sure your deck has at least 6 removal spells seems like a decent idea though to be honest.
Hi guys, been playing faeries for a while now and keeping up with this thread since the BB unbanning. I know people have been using Jace for card draw, but has anyone here considered Dictate of Kruphix? It has the same mana cost, and has flash to help so we can play it end step giving us first advantage, and being an enchantment, it would be harder to deal with once it hits. It seeme that giving our opponents another card is usually irrelevant since our draws have more of an impact on the game.
Yes it's nice that Dictate can be cast at instant speed, but Jace is more than just card advantage for the deck. Being a planeswalker he can act as a pseudo fog for us sometimes if our opponent attacks him instead of us. Added that he can actually make our opponents not draw cards does benefit us as well, as even though we may have higher impact cards, it's nice to keep the opponents hand size to a minimum if it can be helped.
I'm pretty much set on playing only 4 spot removal main. They are dead cards in quite a few matchups, and I also run Lili and Tiago, both of whom can kill creatures in certain situations.
Overall, I have come to prefer Tiago over Scion. He's more versatile and less situational. Additionally, he's also a decent attacker.
Vonklaude's mana base strikes me as solid. I've been running the exact same cards, just with an additional Ruins over the singleton Swamp. However, Ruins got stuck in Mutavault-openers all too often, which is why I might switch to Vonklaude's version.
By the way, I managed to beat RG Tron today. Vendilion, Mistbind, Mana Leak and BB let me win the race.
I am correct in assuming by Taigo you mean Snapcaster? Just clarifying.
And as for the singleton swamp, I honestly like having 1 Swamp in the deck as it helps you fix your black mana in the event of things like PtE, Ghost Quarter, and Blood Moon
Well I've heard enough arguments both for and against Quickling. I don't know when I'll have my deck put together, but I will test it and let you guys know how it works. So anyway...about that deck that won that 240 PTQ. I think the list looks interesting, but part of me wants to run 1 Sword of FaF and one Sword of LaS. Also as I said previously, I really hate River of Tears as a land for this deck. It has issues where you need black mana, but you can't get it.
I know you don't always have to attack with both Tar Pits if you have two. However I feel that if every Tar Pit you drew after the first one was a Temple to help you smooth out your draws, that would help you close out the game quicker. Again, it will take testing to see if it even works. Maybe I am just hoping for too many good scenarios, and in fact I just want to run 4 Tar Pit as my only ETBT lands.
Yes Redirect is probably just better. I completely forgot that thing existed honestly. With how like 95% of the mana base for Faeries produces blue, a UU mana cost is easy to cast. However if Redirect is any good, I can see some decks like Jund potentially running Imp's Mischief if they think it's good (I really don't know if it would be, I have no idea how the archetype functions atm lol).
Explain to me why you think Quickling is just bad. I am under no delusions that it is overpowered, or even amazing. I think it is a fairly decent card, which at the very least deserves some testing. The way I see it is as a replacement for Scion of Oona in how it can protect your fairies. Now I understand how great Scion is, don't get me wrong. If you are running the Aggro Fairy deck, don't look bad. Drop Quickling like a rock and just run with 4x Scion of Oona. However I think there is merit to running Quickling in the Faerie decks which only want about 2 Scion.
Let's compare how these two stack up if used in a Midrange/Control list.
Initially Quickly is better mana cost wise. I know control excels where there are are cheap an efficient. And honestly for 1U a 2/2 Flash Flier is a lot more efficient than a 1/1 Flash Flier that costs 2U. However we do have to look at how both of these creature impact the board when they ETB.
Scion: Anthems all your Faeries and gives them Shroud (doesn't include self)
Quickling: Returns a creature to your hand or dies
Now obviously Scion has a much better board impact. It makes all your guys bigger (maybe big enough to hit for lethal), and protects them all. Hell it even protects your Bitterblossom, which is huge! Generally I'm going to want to cast Scion in response to a removal spell in order to save whatever is being targeted, or if I need to race my opponent. Scion does a very good job at protecting your dudes, and adding to the clock, which is why he is great.
Now if we look at Quickling, he doesn't really have as much utility as Scion. He doesn't anthem and shroud, but he still helps to protect your guys from removal spells. Add to this that all of the creatures you'll be bouncing (most of the time) are going to have an effect on the board when you cast them again and Quickling starts to seem a bit better.Being able to reuse Vendilion Clique to get rid of a dead card in your hand, or a threat in your opponents is awesome, being able to time walk your opponent a second time with the same Mistbind Clique is equally as good. Hell you even get the ability to counter something against with Spellstutter Sprite, and your Faerie count has gone up by one! Now Quickling, being a 2/2 Flash Flier, can also add to your clock, albeit definitely not as much as Scion. I feel that the utility you can get out of Quickling, in addition to that it costs less mana than Scion, at least warrants some decent testing with the thing.
I've been testing quickling and it's just alright. The times when it saves a dude is sweet, but then there are times when it just sits in hand because there's just one token out and it's a "must" ETB effect. I found myself wishing they were something else. In the right deck they might be nice, but not for me. Frankly I'd rather have Oona's Gatewarden, which pretty much just sits there until I decide to have it block or champion it, and it's not great. If quickling was a "may" effect it would be a lot more playable, and then still probably a bubble card.
What does your creature base look like in the deck you're testing it in?
4 Spellstutter
2 snapcaster
2 Vendilion
2 quickling
3 mistbind (sometimes sided out for Sower of Temptation)
4 Bitterblossom (of course)
I have used to to save Vendilion and Mistbind, and I've used it to try to reuse SSS. It's just a little too clunky. I was hoping it would be more like Snapcaster for creatures ETB effects, but it just hasn't worked out. I might be using it wrong, or have bad timing, admittedly I'm just an alright player.
That is exactly the creature base I was thinking of running. Honestly I see Quickling as a way to save your own creatures from removal, acting as an additional 2 counter spells that happen to have legs. Maybe they would just be better as Scion of Oonas but I have no idea.
I know some people think Quickling is bad to use as a pseudo anti removal spell, since they can just use another removal spell one whatever you are trying to save anyway, which can cause you to have to kill the Quickling, but in that case how is using Quickling in this many any different from using an actual counterspell? The trade off with Quickling is that you get the ability to reuse your ETB abilities, you still are going to have a dude on the field, and you can actually stop an abrupt decay hitting something like your Vendilion Clique.
Also while we are talking about hypothetical cards to run in the deck. A friend of mine has been trying to convince me to run Imp's Mischief as a 2 of in the deck. What does everyone else think of this thing?
On the plus side it allows you to be able to take all their removal and counters and just throw them around, plus against the hexproof match up, you just so happen to make it so they enchant your faeries instead of their creatures. On the other hand, it's another card alongside Thoughtseize and BB that is going to just wreck your life total, not to mention it can't do anything against what a deck like Pod is trying to do.
What is Bow of Nylea for? looks interesting, however I can only see boarding it vs burn, as you cant shuffle opponents graveyard.
My gut feeling is that Bow helps against a lot of the removal heavy match ups, or match ups where you want to lean on winning by destroying them with Primal Command + Eternal Witness. Bow allows you to put your witnesses back into your deck for you to tutor back up with Primal.
I understand what you are saying, but I win a lot of games with tarpit and there are a lot of edges running around. I usally lose at least one tarpit a game. I started with 2, and I usually play 3, but more recently I went up to four. I do player a miser's think twice. I don't think it hurts to try temple of deceit, but I usually feel like I want my first 4-6 land drops to come in untapped. I make the sacrifice for tarpit, but I'm not sure I would do the same for temple of deceit.
If you decide to test with temple you should start with a higher number, but I am hard pressed to believe that it will be more than a one of. Let us know what you think.
I'd love to, I just need to get a deck put together honestly. I am slowly shambling cards together, which is why I am just asking about ideas I've had. Want to see if anyone else has tried them so I know if it's worth it to try it myself or not.
I've been testing quickling and it's just alright. The times when it saves a dude is sweet, but then there are times when it just sits in hand because there's just one token out and it's a "must" ETB effect. I found myself wishing they were something else. In the right deck they might be nice, but not for me. Frankly I'd rather have Oona's Gatewarden, which pretty much just sits there until I decide to have it block or champion it, and it's not great. If quickling was a "may" effect it would be a lot more playable, and then still probably a bubble card.
What does your creature base look like in the deck you're testing it in?
Gonna throw this out there....has anyone bothered testing Boseiju, Who Shelters All as a way to have your Commands, Waves, etc. not get countered? I think you could easily slot it in as a 1-2 of.
I thought of temple of deceit, but I would max out on tarpit before I ever touched that and you don't want too many lands coming into play tapped.
I don't think Tarpit is good in multiples. Since it basically costs you 4 land for each Tarpit you use (3 to activate, and then swing with the Tarpit) I would never want to see more than 1 each game I think. If you're getting to 8 land, and you're activating two tarpits to attack, you are either winning right there (where a better draw might have let you win sooner) or you are about to die since you're basically tapping out to attack them.
I think if I were to run the Temple I'd do a 3 Tarpit:2 Temple split, or maybe 3:3. It would need testing obviously, but I think having a way for this deck to smooth out draws is amazing. I would kill to get Sensei's Divining Top in here, but alas it is banned T_T
Hello fellow Fae players. I'm slowly going through the thread to see the stuff everyone is talking about for this deck, but I have a question.
What is everyone's opinion on using 1-2 Quickling in a deck? It allows you to be able to reuse your Snapcasters, Spellstutters and Mistbinds, while also doubling as a way to protect them all from removal. I know the downside of not being able to cast it without having another guy is awkward, but with 4 Bitterblossom that shouldn't matter too much.
EDIT: Okay so I read the thread a bit and got the general opinion most people don't like Quickling. Has anyone's opinion's changed in terms of Quickling and has anyone managed to throw some testing in with it?
Additionally what do you all think of using Temple of Deceit in the mana base? It does have a pretty big downside of coming into play tapped, but I am trying to figure out other lands to run that make both U & B. I really don't like River of Tears since it has the huge potential of not being the colour you need when you need it. The temple gives you both colours, and can help you smooth out a draw, which I feel might be important since most Faerie decks aren't running any card draw outside using one mode on Cryptic or potentially running Remand.
There are a few problems with Rune Snag over Mana Leak. First is the obvious all in plan you kind of need to accompany Rune Snag. In order for Rune Snag to be good, you want to see more than one every game, which means you'll want to run 4. Most decks I have seen run 3 Mana Leak, so you need to remove another card to clear up that slot for the fourth Snag. Second is the information you give your opponent. If you play a Mana Leak your opponent doesn't know how many you have in the deck. Is it a miser's one of? Do you have a full play set? It's unknown information to them. When you cast a Rune Snag however your opponent immediately knows you have 4 of them in the deck because of the nature of how the card works. Then there is the issue of Snapcaster. Now I know our deck isn't all in on Tiago like other decks, but Snaps does help us use the spells we have already used when we need them again in a pinch. If you need to Snap a Rune Snag when you only have 1 in the yard, it's just strictly worse than Snapping a Mana Leak.
I think to compare the two we need to look at them like this:
Mana Leak - Counters unless they pay 3 100% of the time
Rune Snag - Counters unless they pay 2 70% of the time, counters unless they pay 4 30% of the time
I don't see anyone ever banking on being able to counter for 6 or 8, that is just silly wishful thinking, and Magical Christmas Land. Our best case scenarios with Snag are to be able to cast one or Snap one while already having used one (used 2 in the case of Snapping). Best case with Mana Leak is to just have the damn thing.
Mind you I still don't like Pack Rat for the deck, but I do understand it.
Yes it's nice that Dictate can be cast at instant speed, but Jace is more than just card advantage for the deck. Being a planeswalker he can act as a pseudo fog for us sometimes if our opponent attacks him instead of us. Added that he can actually make our opponents not draw cards does benefit us as well, as even though we may have higher impact cards, it's nice to keep the opponents hand size to a minimum if it can be helped.
That's my 2 cents anyway
I am correct in assuming by Taigo you mean Snapcaster? Just clarifying.
And as for the singleton swamp, I honestly like having 1 Swamp in the deck as it helps you fix your black mana in the event of things like PtE, Ghost Quarter, and Blood Moon
Yes Redirect is probably just better. I completely forgot that thing existed honestly. With how like 95% of the mana base for Faeries produces blue, a UU mana cost is easy to cast. However if Redirect is any good, I can see some decks like Jund potentially running Imp's Mischief if they think it's good (I really don't know if it would be, I have no idea how the archetype functions atm lol).
Explain to me why you think Quickling is just bad. I am under no delusions that it is overpowered, or even amazing. I think it is a fairly decent card, which at the very least deserves some testing. The way I see it is as a replacement for Scion of Oona in how it can protect your fairies. Now I understand how great Scion is, don't get me wrong. If you are running the Aggro Fairy deck, don't look bad. Drop Quickling like a rock and just run with 4x Scion of Oona. However I think there is merit to running Quickling in the Faerie decks which only want about 2 Scion.
Let's compare how these two stack up if used in a Midrange/Control list.
Scion of Oona: Costs 2U (CMC 3)
Quickling: Costs 1U (CMC 2)
Initially Quickly is better mana cost wise. I know control excels where there are are cheap an efficient. And honestly for 1U a 2/2 Flash Flier is a lot more efficient than a 1/1 Flash Flier that costs 2U. However we do have to look at how both of these creature impact the board when they ETB.
Scion: Anthems all your Faeries and gives them Shroud (doesn't include self)
Quickling: Returns a creature to your hand or dies
Now obviously Scion has a much better board impact. It makes all your guys bigger (maybe big enough to hit for lethal), and protects them all. Hell it even protects your Bitterblossom, which is huge! Generally I'm going to want to cast Scion in response to a removal spell in order to save whatever is being targeted, or if I need to race my opponent. Scion does a very good job at protecting your dudes, and adding to the clock, which is why he is great.
Now if we look at Quickling, he doesn't really have as much utility as Scion. He doesn't anthem and shroud, but he still helps to protect your guys from removal spells. Add to this that all of the creatures you'll be bouncing (most of the time) are going to have an effect on the board when you cast them again and Quickling starts to seem a bit better.Being able to reuse Vendilion Clique to get rid of a dead card in your hand, or a threat in your opponents is awesome, being able to time walk your opponent a second time with the same Mistbind Clique is equally as good. Hell you even get the ability to counter something against with Spellstutter Sprite, and your Faerie count has gone up by one! Now Quickling, being a 2/2 Flash Flier, can also add to your clock, albeit definitely not as much as Scion. I feel that the utility you can get out of Quickling, in addition to that it costs less mana than Scion, at least warrants some decent testing with the thing.
That is exactly the creature base I was thinking of running. Honestly I see Quickling as a way to save your own creatures from removal, acting as an additional 2 counter spells that happen to have legs. Maybe they would just be better as Scion of Oonas but I have no idea.
I know some people think Quickling is bad to use as a pseudo anti removal spell, since they can just use another removal spell one whatever you are trying to save anyway, which can cause you to have to kill the Quickling, but in that case how is using Quickling in this many any different from using an actual counterspell? The trade off with Quickling is that you get the ability to reuse your ETB abilities, you still are going to have a dude on the field, and you can actually stop an abrupt decay hitting something like your Vendilion Clique.
Also while we are talking about hypothetical cards to run in the deck. A friend of mine has been trying to convince me to run Imp's Mischief as a 2 of in the deck. What does everyone else think of this thing?
On the plus side it allows you to be able to take all their removal and counters and just throw them around, plus against the hexproof match up, you just so happen to make it so they enchant your faeries instead of their creatures. On the other hand, it's another card alongside Thoughtseize and BB that is going to just wreck your life total, not to mention it can't do anything against what a deck like Pod is trying to do.
My gut feeling is that Bow helps against a lot of the removal heavy match ups, or match ups where you want to lean on winning by destroying them with Primal Command + Eternal Witness. Bow allows you to put your witnesses back into your deck for you to tutor back up with Primal.
I'd love to, I just need to get a deck put together honestly. I am slowly shambling cards together, which is why I am just asking about ideas I've had. Want to see if anyone else has tried them so I know if it's worth it to try it myself or not.
What does your creature base look like in the deck you're testing it in?
I don't think Tarpit is good in multiples. Since it basically costs you 4 land for each Tarpit you use (3 to activate, and then swing with the Tarpit) I would never want to see more than 1 each game I think. If you're getting to 8 land, and you're activating two tarpits to attack, you are either winning right there (where a better draw might have let you win sooner) or you are about to die since you're basically tapping out to attack them.
I think if I were to run the Temple I'd do a 3 Tarpit:2 Temple split, or maybe 3:3. It would need testing obviously, but I think having a way for this deck to smooth out draws is amazing. I would kill to get Sensei's Divining Top in here, but alas it is banned T_T
What is everyone's opinion on using 1-2 Quickling in a deck? It allows you to be able to reuse your Snapcasters, Spellstutters and Mistbinds, while also doubling as a way to protect them all from removal. I know the downside of not being able to cast it without having another guy is awkward, but with 4 Bitterblossom that shouldn't matter too much.
EDIT: Okay so I read the thread a bit and got the general opinion most people don't like Quickling. Has anyone's opinion's changed in terms of Quickling and has anyone managed to throw some testing in with it?
Additionally what do you all think of using Temple of Deceit in the mana base? It does have a pretty big downside of coming into play tapped, but I am trying to figure out other lands to run that make both U & B. I really don't like River of Tears since it has the huge potential of not being the colour you need when you need it. The temple gives you both colours, and can help you smooth out a draw, which I feel might be important since most Faerie decks aren't running any card draw outside using one mode on Cryptic or potentially running Remand.