Disperse is something I've considered. It'll probably eventually be a player if these kind of tempo Sword decks become popular. So far, Oblivion Ring has been working out very well, even at sorcery speed.
Here's the list I've been putting through the ringer:
Having a playset of O-Ring against Pod decks and Tempered Steel post-board has just been invaluable for me. I've been comfortable enough with this setup to leave out a spell like Divine Offering altogether. My entire board is basically built to beat aggro and Pod without much for control (other than extra O-Rings and Geist). Perhaps I'm going too overboard on the aggro hate.
There are turns I feel like I'm not getting enough out of my mana. For example:
T2: hold up Mana Leak/Think Twice
T3: Midnight Haunting eot
T4: flashback Think Twice, one land left over
Turn four consistently feels like I should be doing more. I've been liking Divination, but there are times where I'm forced to tap out early after a mulligan to draw into my land drops. I almost feel like running something like Visions of Beyond in its place - some cheap one drop INSTANT speed cantrip that I can flashback with Mage, as well. I don't know if Visions is viable whatsoever, and I don't think we'll ever turn it into a Recall with this kind of deck, but it's been on my mind.
What are your guys's thoughts on this? Anyone else having lines of play similar to the one above? Perhaps I'm just being over critical, but turn four is consistently underwhelming, unless I flashback a Mana Leak. The deck just comes alive on turn five and onward, but turn four seems like the awkward step.
I think you're fine. Turn 4 will usually be DoJ or Snap+leak.
Worst case you can go turn 2 TT turn 3 TT or leak and then turn 4 put your 2 tokens eot then turn 5 sword equip smash. I mean if you give them a turn to react to the tokens before equipping a sword to one of em', you might miss a very good opportunity to win a game there.
Looks very interesting to build and pilot. Though, I wouldn't recommend grimoire. It's too slow to make it online and people can react to it, making you lose cards for nothing.
Chandra also seems meh. I mean she's cute against control but you don't have enough cheap removal to protect her against aggro.
I'd add another magnet and sphere for sure. Maybe 24th or 25th land as well?
I will try to respond to as many concerns, and I will justify my choices.
1. Think Twice
This spell was chosen for two primary reasons. The first, Werewolf mechanics. These decks punish you for not being able to play spells, so in order to gain value and disruption Think Twice was chosen to help keep the aggressive decks in check. The second reason, is value. The instant speed makes this card a superior choice when paired with feast and famine. Having a non-creature Mana sink is incredible.
The instant speed really sells well, leaving counter magic up or instant draw is just fantastic. Let's be honest, there were so many people praising Jace's Ingenuity, how is this card not strictly better?
2. "The Blind Spot to One drops"
What one drops do you actually care about? I am particularly not concerned at all about turns 1 and 2, I am more concerned about 3 and 4 from the aggressive decks. The reason? I have Ratchet Bomb, Dismember, Spellskite, Day of Judgment, Flashfreeze, Celestial Purge, Oblivion Ring, Gideon Jura, and Wurmcoil Engine to dispatch the aggressive decks.
There is no more Duress, Inquisition, Goblin Guide, Arbor Elf, Lightning Bolt, Burst Lightning, Goblin Bushwacker, or Steppe Lynx. I won't be packing Mental Misstep to stop a non-haste 1 drop or a shock. It's not worth the dedicated space when you have cards that over-cede it at extremely efficient mana costs. You are afraid of Koth, not Stormkirk Noble.
3. Ghost Quarter
This was just precautionary against the "value lands", control decks generally have a hard time dealing with such things, so I assumed 3 was a proper number without diluting my deck with too many colorless sources.
4. The Snapcaster Mage Issue
Please, do not run 4 copies of this card, they lose a tremendous amount of value in multiples. Having 3 in your opening hand is an automatic mulligan. Please do not clutter this thread with 100% theory, please play some scrimmage games first, even if a few with proxies before splattering ideas.
I've tested this against a variety of brews (Mono Red, RG aggro, BR aggro, Jund Titan, Mono Black, UB Control)
I have not presently tested against GW Tokens, merely because I believe the deck to be an auto win due to Ratchet Bomb/Day/Gideon Jura. A non-disruptive aggro deck will not go far. Yet I could be wrong.
Having 3 of anything in your opener is almost always a mulligan. You have about 10 to 16 cards to bring back with it. There is no reason to not play 4. Worst case, send it into play to chump or throw it to an enemy liliana or your own if you play it.
This card is just never dead.
edit: Oh I jsut realized this isn't the draw-go thread. I guess 3 is okay since you don't have that much targets for it.
Midnight Haunting seems like a card that's completely flying under the radar right now. It's almost as good as Spectral Procession, if not a bit better. Perfect in a deck like this. I've also been running a playset.
While I agree that Snap Mage should not necessarily be an auto four-of, I've been comfortably running three.
Also, why not just maindeck something like Timely Reinforcements? It accomplishes a lot of what Wurmcoil Engine gives you without the large mana investment. I haven't been wild about Wurmcoil Engine in my testing. A lot of time it eats a Dispatch against Tempered Steel and I haven't accomplished much. I've been running a singleton Frost Titan that has come up huge in late game Titan v. Titan standoffs.
I've also tested a main deck miser's Divine Offering. You're spot on about the necessity in controlling artifacts of the format. There are very few match ups I would consider Divine Offering a completely dead card. It kills Glint Hawk Idol, which is a PROBLEM card against us when we're relying on wrath effects to maintain board control. Midnight Haunting mitigates Idol a bit, but it's still a threat. Offering also knocks out Pods, Swords, and even Shrines, of any color. It's been good for me.
I get Divination. It's not something I'm personally running at the moment, but I see the value there.
Also agree on the Ghost Quarters. Control decks will be dying left and right to Stensia Bloodhall if they can't handle it. Quarter does exactly what it's supposed to do: answer problem lands at a cost. The entire cycle of Innistrad spell lands need an answer, because they'll see play.
That would still have the same problem the last one had. People would just sit on their win percentage instead of their rating.
Which is a very easily fixed issue. I'm no expert in the matter, but they could use a formula which also benefit your numbers of games player as well as your win %. They could do like LoL and reduce your ELO if you don't place for a certain amount of time. Or even better they could recquire you to play X games during the last 3-6 months to participate.
These are just thought I had at 4am after a rough day imagine what a team could come up with.
What could work is having the very same system we have now and add a win% feature which would choose who's invited and everything. Someone playing 1000 games with a 50% win isnt very impressive if you compared it to someone that played 300 with a 75%.
i remember trading an abyssal persecutor for a jace 2.0 because they were both 30-35$ during the first week. i still have a smile on my face.
now that i think about it you do make a point, but like this guy said, people are stupid. based on that fact, its safe to say people are STILL going to preorder cards they "think" are good eventhough it is proven useless within the first month of playing. making a thread HERE is pretty pointless because (a wild assumption) most people here are bright.
when you try to get their back and explain stuff to them they jsut dont mind. your best bet is probably to say nothing and just farm 10-dollards-polluted-delta for that legacy deck you always wanted. dont try to fix stupid; they didnt invented a cure for that yet.
I absolutly agree here with equillibrium. Regarding the Suspend-counter. Technically its appropiate to remove them in the upkeep but since no player got priority in the untap step its a whole different story to "forgetting a trigger draw a card and get extra information".
Btw. this was the board presence, his Edric was at the bottom of his library
Edit: He was attacking me and "paid" the trigger in the attacker declare step.
The real question Tabris is not who's fault it is... it's rather why in god's name are you playing consecrated sphinx?
and i rly rly rly dont understand why it took a moderator to get to the bottom of this.
is it a may ability? did he pay? well i guess thats a lil too bad. doesnt matter if some god dman scorpion jumps on his keyboard and skipped the phase for him...
ok so basicly there is a tournament. some guy won it and you're not happy because of his card choices.
ok then dont host tournaments and play casual? like you said if the fun part of it is to bring people together and play the game, do that without a TO? ya know casual players act like competitive players dont have fun while playing. they do, they just dislike playing cards that arent optimal.
I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet, but assuming Steve Argyle's piece is going to be the artwork for Liliana 2.0's Planeswalker card, then what is this the art for?
While it's possible that this is simply the artwork for another card, the focus is clearly of Liliana. Is it possible that Liliana of the Veil is going to be the prerelease promo of Innistrad in a similar vein to Ajani Vengeant in Shards of Alara?
As for the artwork itself, there's something about it that bugs me, but overall I'm pretty down with the final design. I'm really glad that the first art is being used, as the second one is really messy in comparison. Some of the trial arts are actually pretty sweet, though.
The way I see it, it looks more like a spell than a creature or planeswalker to me. It might be one of liliana's spells like a removal or life drain or something.
I mean look at the guy on the left. hes clearly dying of something.
@WEDDG: So, what is the reasoning behind having another win-con besides the WSZ's? And, if I were to drop one, any thoughts on what to replace it with -- maybe 02 SoJi? And, is it [I]really[/I] necessary to have a full playset of Days? Just wondering, that's all.
@What is This: I like (for now) keeping 02 Spell Pierce's in my SB, so I have 02 in my main. This may change, but for now; it seems alright. My counter suite is now:
Also, I have gone to 04 Preordain's; but am also going to try 04 Jace's Ingenuity's; because I currently [I]only[/I] have 02 Belerens. I may buy another later, but I'll try 04/04/02 for now. I shall try your suggestion for my removal suite, but just adding another Day [I know that brings my card count to 61!!!--but that has never been a problem for me]. Actually, I just now realized (going through my cards) that I have no Belerens. So what should I do re: my draw suite???
Thanks for the suggestions/comments, and please keep them coming.
-MD
if you dont have belerens im pretty sure 4 preordains and 4 ingenuity and a 27th and a counter/removal could do it too.
Like someone here mentioned earlier, you need to pay 4UUU to make it worthwhile over ingenuity. If you aren't dead already by turn 7, I think it's safe to say you're pretty much set. I don't like ingenuity that much either but because this is a draw-go deck, I guess there isn't much of a choice here. 2 or 3 at most.
Card drawing isn't only about giving you CA, it's mostly about not missing your land drops and not dying to aggro in the first few turns. Preordain helps achieving that and it is why I think everyone and every control deck should be running 4.
I think beleren is a must here too. I don't really like the card but in this meta there is no choice. Every blue deck you're going to go against are going to run 4 main and you need a way to fight it. It's a win condition if it resolves against control, it's an oblivion ring against an opposing jace and it's just very potent against slow decks like valakut and whatnot. I agree that casting it turn 3 against aggro is a mistake since you won't be able to protect it, but that brings me to talk about my next point.
Removal: I think this kind of deck needs alot of it. I think 4 condemn is the way to go with goblin guide, vengevine and bloodghast going rampant. It synergizes very well with Jace (If you play it on your turn 4, you can bait your opponent into double smashing it instead of just killing it if you play it turn 3, gaining you about 4 life (1UU draw a card gain 4 life is pretty good against fast decks)) and it's the cheapest removal spell in white. Dismember is the second cheapest but I don't think we need mroe than 2. I don't think dismember is that great of a tool against splinter-twin. I mean you're some god damn kid playing 15 counterspells main with an instant-speed win condition. You might lose G1 if he gets you off guard but G2 and G3 will be nearly impossible for them vs. your flashfreezes/celestial purges/addition hard counters.
I also agree on 2x into the roil against the dreaded shrine. That and 3 spell pierce should be enough. It's also very good vs. slow decks where you can easily kick it. It's also good turn 2 to either protect your jace from a turn 2 creature or bounce an enemy jace to play your own.
Deprive is just a nono all around. You need to get to 5 mana asap for that ingenuity or your zenith. If you end up being forced to use it turn 3 or 4, you'll jsut time walk yourself. I'd rather just play 1 more removal and 1 more cancel instead.
So right now this would be how it would be looking:
It's a raw list but having 5 hard counters tells me its matchup against splinter / control / any midrange is pretty much garantee'd. Would require playtesting and tuning according to the number of aggro / control decks attending to the event.
Mindbreak trap might be worth running as a 2 of main if there are valakuts but if anything its unecessary. a 3 mana hard coutner thats better against EVERY other matchup is better in my opinion.
I sleep talk when I am suuuper tired and kind of just crash in bed. My fiance has recalled some funny stories about how I told her we couldn't go swimming the next day because we didn't have any harpoons. Pretty funny stuff. I don't usually consider it a problem, and it makes her laugh, so I never really thought much of it.
I think you're fine. Turn 4 will usually be DoJ or Snap+leak.
Worst case you can go turn 2 TT turn 3 TT or leak and then turn 4 put your 2 tokens eot then turn 5 sword equip smash. I mean if you give them a turn to react to the tokens before equipping a sword to one of em', you might miss a very good opportunity to win a game there.
Chandra also seems meh. I mean she's cute against control but you don't have enough cheap removal to protect her against aggro.
I'd add another magnet and sphere for sure. Maybe 24th or 25th land as well?
Having 3 of anything in your opener is almost always a mulligan. You have about 10 to 16 cards to bring back with it. There is no reason to not play 4. Worst case, send it into play to chump or throw it to an enemy liliana or your own if you play it.
This card is just never dead.
edit: Oh I jsut realized this isn't the draw-go thread. I guess 3 is okay since you don't have that much targets for it.
Oh wow, you have a dirty, dirty mind. Everytime I see you post my genitals feel funny.
Awesome tech. Good eye.
Which is a very easily fixed issue. I'm no expert in the matter, but they could use a formula which also benefit your numbers of games player as well as your win %. They could do like LoL and reduce your ELO if you don't place for a certain amount of time. Or even better they could recquire you to play X games during the last 3-6 months to participate.
These are just thought I had at 4am after a rough day imagine what a team could come up with.
now that i think about it you do make a point, but like this guy said, people are stupid. based on that fact, its safe to say people are STILL going to preorder cards they "think" are good eventhough it is proven useless within the first month of playing. making a thread HERE is pretty pointless because (a wild assumption) most people here are bright.
when you try to get their back and explain stuff to them they jsut dont mind. your best bet is probably to say nothing and just farm 10-dollards-polluted-delta for that legacy deck you always wanted. dont try to fix stupid; they didnt invented a cure for that yet.
The real question Tabris is not who's fault it is... it's rather why in god's name are you playing consecrated sphinx?
and i rly rly rly dont understand why it took a moderator to get to the bottom of this.
is it a may ability? did he pay? well i guess thats a lil too bad. doesnt matter if some god dman scorpion jumps on his keyboard and skipped the phase for him...
guess teysa turn 1 lockdown didnt work heh mate? do u run mana tithe and force spike? oh please tell me you do...
lol...
ok then dont host tournaments and play casual? like you said if the fun part of it is to bring people together and play the game, do that without a TO? ya know casual players act like competitive players dont have fun while playing. they do, they just dislike playing cards that arent optimal.
god damnit they keep doing this.
The way I see it, it looks more like a spell than a creature or planeswalker to me. It might be one of liliana's spells like a removal or life drain or something.
I mean look at the guy on the left. hes clearly dying of something.
if you dont have belerens im pretty sure 4 preordains and 4 ingenuity and a 27th and a counter/removal could do it too.
Like someone here mentioned earlier, you need to pay 4UUU to make it worthwhile over ingenuity. If you aren't dead already by turn 7, I think it's safe to say you're pretty much set. I don't like ingenuity that much either but because this is a draw-go deck, I guess there isn't much of a choice here. 2 or 3 at most.
Card drawing isn't only about giving you CA, it's mostly about not missing your land drops and not dying to aggro in the first few turns. Preordain helps achieving that and it is why I think everyone and every control deck should be running 4.
I think beleren is a must here too. I don't really like the card but in this meta there is no choice. Every blue deck you're going to go against are going to run 4 main and you need a way to fight it. It's a win condition if it resolves against control, it's an oblivion ring against an opposing jace and it's just very potent against slow decks like valakut and whatnot. I agree that casting it turn 3 against aggro is a mistake since you won't be able to protect it, but that brings me to talk about my next point.
Removal: I think this kind of deck needs alot of it. I think 4 condemn is the way to go with goblin guide, vengevine and bloodghast going rampant. It synergizes very well with Jace (If you play it on your turn 4, you can bait your opponent into double smashing it instead of just killing it if you play it turn 3, gaining you about 4 life (1UU draw a card gain 4 life is pretty good against fast decks)) and it's the cheapest removal spell in white. Dismember is the second cheapest but I don't think we need mroe than 2. I don't think dismember is that great of a tool against splinter-twin. I mean you're some god damn kid playing 15 counterspells main with an instant-speed win condition. You might lose G1 if he gets you off guard but G2 and G3 will be nearly impossible for them vs. your flashfreezes/celestial purges/addition hard counters.
I also agree on 2x into the roil against the dreaded shrine. That and 3 spell pierce should be enough. It's also very good vs. slow decks where you can easily kick it. It's also good turn 2 to either protect your jace from a turn 2 creature or bounce an enemy jace to play your own.
Deprive is just a nono all around. You need to get to 5 mana asap for that ingenuity or your zenith. If you end up being forced to use it turn 3 or 4, you'll jsut time walk yourself. I'd rather just play 1 more removal and 1 more cancel instead.
3 White Sun Zenith
4 Preordain
3 Jace Ingenuity
3 Jace Beleren
4 Condemn
2 Day of Judgment
2 Into the Roil
2 Dismember
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stoic Rebuttal
2 Cancel
Lands: (25)
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Plains
5 Island
It's a raw list but having 5 hard counters tells me its matchup against splinter / control / any midrange is pretty much garantee'd. Would require playtesting and tuning according to the number of aggro / control decks attending to the event.
Mindbreak trap might be worth running as a 2 of main if there are valakuts but if anything its unecessary. a 3 mana hard coutner thats better against EVERY other matchup is better in my opinion.
tell rory
oh wait call him at 1am and wake his parents up like he did yesterday LOLOLOL
AHAHAHAH that is hilarious!