Fair, didn't see them discussed. So few decks run enough basics to take full advantage of more than one ogd, at 1 mana it evolves ex1 again and being above curve is most of what this deck cares about. Mana bases in modern rarely get color screwed anyway so 'fixing' their mana is not really relevant...
Been tweking our old stampy list for new cards. Haven't gotten to do much testing but i think narnam renegade and old growth dryads could be great additions to the deck. Thoughts?
I am still in shock, we've never had this many back-to-back bannings.
Back on topic
That leaves bg energy/delirium, temur energy, ur control, and mardu vehicles. Personally I foresee ur control taking a hit because their best mu was marvel. So realistically it's only the other 3 we need to worry about.
My thoughts in no particular order;
Fatal push looks a lot better.
There will be a lot less sweepers to worry about.
Transgress got worse.
Belcher/miasmic mummy are a lot more situational and possibly not worth the sb.
The meta looks very aggro-centric.
I think zombies has good matchups against almost all of those decks. The temur energy can be awkward g1 and if they ramp hard it gets away from me fast. Everything else looks favorable atm.
Bw looks like an even worse choice now. I'm not tryin to be a naysayer and the drain surely helps in aggro matchups. It just feels too slow. Vehicles is a better gideon deck, and everything else is either mutch faster or way higher value. :/
I'm not a huge fan of dispossess for marvel. In the decks with censor it is too hard to make sure it sticks turn 3. You have to draw it, 3 land, and them not have a counter for it to get their marvels before they play one. And the counter free version will punish you so hard for that tempo loss on turn 3. I much prefer 2-4 transgress.
As for the overall marvel matchup the best mindset i've heard/found is to ignore the marvel/ulamog option and just push lightning fast aggro(ofcourse play smart and know how to play around/against sweepers). If they have the turn 4 ulamog they win 95% of the time. You should make it so that you win every game they don't slam a titan turn 4. It's about a 25-30% chance they hit ulamog on t4. That's a ~70% winrate if you dominate the games they don't hit him.
Am I wrong for thinking the main objective of this deck is strictly aggro? In the sense that we want to build the board out as fast as possible using cards like Crpytbreaker to draw more zombies asap. I just want to make sure I understand EXACTLY where our advantage is in matches, this way I know how to exploit it and hopefully build on it. Bc right now, after just finishing building my mono-black deck, I am on the fence with deciding whether or not I should be transitioning into B/W already, just for the benefit of cards like Anguished Unmaking ( for Marvel) , Gideon ( for defense in situations where our board gets wiped ) and especially Wayward Servant ( for the major advantage of stealing 1 of your opponents Life points every time we play a zombie).
That's really the main difference between the two builds. The monoblack build focuses more on overwhelming and outpacing other decks while having a ton of recursion and value for midrange/control matchups. The bw version is noticeably slower and is more of a midrange value deck. It can be aggressive but it's more focused on value and incremental advantages. It's also more vulnerable to red boardwipes and has less recursion than monoblack. It's removal is more flexible but also more expensive, making it slower.
Personally I prefer the monoblack version even in metas where most people would steer you towards bw(marvel and ur control heavy). With practice and the right sideboard those matchups are more than winnable and its mardu, gb, and new perspectives matrhups are much better. The mirror is 50/50 cards like wayward servant and declaration give bw an advantage but the cheaper removal, higher speed and more reliable mana are advantages for mono black.
The other thing to consider is rotation, it's about 4 months away so it's definitely a factor. Monoblack loses more than bw but they both lose so much that it's hord to say if either will still be competitive enough. That said more of the bw deck survives rotation than the mono black deck. Specifically;
Mono loses;
Cryptbreaker
Diregraf colossus
Relentless dead
Grasp of darkness
Collective brutality
Transgress the mind
Westvale abbey
Bw loses;
Cryptbreaker
Diregraf colossus
Anguished unmaking
Declaration in stone
Gideon
Transgress the mind
Shambling vents
I have a 3 of in my sb for ur control and spell-heavy marvel. They've done Admirably in those matchups, i love mimic so much that I'm hesitant to cut him main but it may especially ata gp be correct. The number of marvel decks at that event waS absurd.
How well does it do against marvel? do you board them in?
It does pretty well, that version plays a lot like a control deck and each of their cards are important to have, making them trade for one of yours or outright snagging a card is great.
I have a 3 of in my sb for ur control and spell-heavy marvel. They've done Admirably in those matchups, i love mimic so much that I'm hesitant to cut him main but it may especially ata gp be correct. The number of marvel decks at that event waS absurd.
It could be worth it to md some discard a 1 of transgress could give you some edge g1. Collective brutality would be a more flexible option.
Or just move a gideon to the main. According to racer they are the nut against marvel. I don't play bw so I defer to his experience.
Personally I do not play liliana the last hopes. From what I can tell she is used as a value engine. I personally don't see the massive utility in adding her and honestly I'm unwilling to fork over the 100+$ for 3 of them. I know budget isn't supposed to be part of the equation here but I'm being honest. Even if I had 3 of them I would likely not play her. It's a powerful card so it will get results but I think there are better options.
As far as not being able to beat a chandra I disagree. She's a glorified boardwipe that happens to be a threat too. That's rough but nowhere near unbeatable. The biggest things are to try to force them to -4 in order to get the wipe, and to have never//return in from the board. She has no answer for a diregraf colossus with over 4 toughness, by the time she comes down that shouldn't be too hard. She also matches up poorly against scrapheap scroungers. You can ress them at their eot after the wipe and crack back to kill her.
On a separate note having 6 discard spells in the board is incidentally suuuper rough on the New Perspectives combo deck. If you land even one discard spell, and they chose to take the play, they can't combo on turn 6. On top of that you can peel important combo pieces, wipes, or fogs. Another point for the usefulness of Miasmic Mummy. Because who wants to lose to that random jank?
If that's how heavy your meta is with ur/control marvel that seems like a solid plan. A couple pages back I have a long post about the ur control matchup. Personally i've had no trouble with a control deck with the mono black version of the deck. I definitely think that version has a better matchup vs control but it does lose some in the mirror and against midrange marvel.
That should be fine, I agree that 4 transgress is too much, Ilike 2 though, seeing one is nice because you can nab a sweeper or a card draw spell but you don't want to draw two. Basically it can let you deny one of their 2+ for ones. Keeping the card advantage more even. I could see doing a swap like this;
-2 push
-2 binding mummy
-3 grasp
+2 selfless spirit
+3 scrapheap
+2 transgress
You don't get to have never // return which can leave you more vulnerable to chandra and gearhulks but you get to keep a really high threat density.
Thats the internal debate. Leaving 3 mana up which is less optimal (but slightly less of an issue if you can get Cryptbreaker engine on the table), or a 2/1 that doesnt cost you tempo but is susceptible to spot removal before it can do its job. Ideally Id be subbing out Binding Mummy for either vs sweepers. Still leaves the deck with plenty of Zombies
Are you bringing scroungers in aswell?
yes
I don't know what you're swapping for those but that's 5-7 creatures in if you're only cutting 5 removal and 2 binding mummies you could be ok but if you're cutting more zombies that can start to get awkward. It also doesn't leave you room for any transgress or planeswalker removal :/
Thats the internal debate. Leaving 3 mana up which is less optimal (but slightly less of an issue if you can get Cryptbreaker engine on the table), or a 2/1 that doesnt cost you tempo but is susceptible to spot removal before it can do its job. Ideally Id be subbing out Binding Mummy for either vs sweepers. Still leaves the deck with plenty of Zombies
I use the same list though with Chandra going in every Marvel deck, Im looking to fit some sweeper protection in the SB. 2x Selfless Spirit or Eerie Interlude
Eerie inherlude is tempting. I've tried it out in other white based aggro lists in the past with poor results. Having to keep the 3 mana up constantly to protect your team slows you down so much. Also once your opponent knows you have it they will just use their spot removal first and force you to use it when it's less effective. In a way holding up mana for this is the same as putting it in their hand.
Selfless spirit is interesting as it lets you stay tempo positive while still being protected. The downside is that it's fragile and not a zombie. Any random point removal hoses him and then they sweep your team, he also doesnt save you from tendrils or descend. He's not a zombie either, which so much of our deck is predicated on that i've heard of people cutting colossus to make room for these type of cards from the sb. Colossus is one of your absolute best weapons vs control and making that weaker on both ends by glutting on non zombies probably won't get you more wins. Colossus let's you go wide while comitting fewer cards and because of the counters he punishes earlier non-exile wipes. A 6/6 plus colosus is a nightmare for ur control they only have 4 harnessed lightning to deal with that.
http://docker2.deckedbuilder.com:3001/d/343847
Back on topic
That leaves bg energy/delirium, temur energy, ur control, and mardu vehicles. Personally I foresee ur control taking a hit because their best mu was marvel. So realistically it's only the other 3 we need to worry about.
My thoughts in no particular order;
Fatal push looks a lot better.
There will be a lot less sweepers to worry about.
Transgress got worse.
Belcher/miasmic mummy are a lot more situational and possibly not worth the sb.
The meta looks very aggro-centric.
I think zombies has good matchups against almost all of those decks. The temur energy can be awkward g1 and if they ramp hard it gets away from me fast. Everything else looks favorable atm.
Bw looks like an even worse choice now. I'm not tryin to be a naysayer and the drain surely helps in aggro matchups. It just feels too slow. Vehicles is a better gideon deck, and everything else is either mutch faster or way higher value. :/
As for the overall marvel matchup the best mindset i've heard/found is to ignore the marvel/ulamog option and just push lightning fast aggro(ofcourse play smart and know how to play around/against sweepers). If they have the turn 4 ulamog they win 95% of the time. You should make it so that you win every game they don't slam a titan turn 4. It's about a 25-30% chance they hit ulamog on t4. That's a ~70% winrate if you dominate the games they don't hit him.
That's really the main difference between the two builds. The monoblack build focuses more on overwhelming and outpacing other decks while having a ton of recursion and value for midrange/control matchups. The bw version is noticeably slower and is more of a midrange value deck. It can be aggressive but it's more focused on value and incremental advantages. It's also more vulnerable to red boardwipes and has less recursion than monoblack. It's removal is more flexible but also more expensive, making it slower.
Personally I prefer the monoblack version even in metas where most people would steer you towards bw(marvel and ur control heavy). With practice and the right sideboard those matchups are more than winnable and its mardu, gb, and new perspectives matrhups are much better. The mirror is 50/50 cards like wayward servant and declaration give bw an advantage but the cheaper removal, higher speed and more reliable mana are advantages for mono black.
The other thing to consider is rotation, it's about 4 months away so it's definitely a factor. Monoblack loses more than bw but they both lose so much that it's hord to say if either will still be competitive enough. That said more of the bw deck survives rotation than the mono black deck. Specifically;
Mono loses;
Cryptbreaker
Diregraf colossus
Relentless dead
Grasp of darkness
Collective brutality
Transgress the mind
Westvale abbey
Bw loses;
Cryptbreaker
Diregraf colossus
Anguished unmaking
Declaration in stone
Gideon
Transgress the mind
Shambling vents
Both lose soo much :/
It does pretty well, that version plays a lot like a control deck and each of their cards are important to have, making them trade for one of yours or outright snagging a card is great.
Or just move a gideon to the main. According to racer they are the nut against marvel. I don't play bw so I defer to his experience.
As far as not being able to beat a chandra I disagree. She's a glorified boardwipe that happens to be a threat too. That's rough but nowhere near unbeatable. The biggest things are to try to force them to -4 in order to get the wipe, and to have never//return in from the board. She has no answer for a diregraf colossus with over 4 toughness, by the time she comes down that shouldn't be too hard. She also matches up poorly against scrapheap scroungers. You can ress them at their eot after the wipe and crack back to kill her.
On a separate note having 6 discard spells in the board is incidentally suuuper rough on the New Perspectives combo deck. If you land even one discard spell, and they chose to take the play, they can't combo on turn 6. On top of that you can peel important combo pieces, wipes, or fogs. Another point for the usefulness of Miasmic Mummy. Because who wants to lose to that random jank?
-2 push
-2 binding mummy
-3 grasp
+2 selfless spirit
+3 scrapheap
+2 transgress
You don't get to have never // return which can leave you more vulnerable to chandra and gearhulks but you get to keep a really high threat density.
I don't know what you're swapping for those but that's 5-7 creatures in if you're only cutting 5 removal and 2 binding mummies you could be ok but if you're cutting more zombies that can start to get awkward. It also doesn't leave you room for any transgress or planeswalker removal :/
Are you bringing scroungers in aswell?
Eerie inherlude is tempting. I've tried it out in other white based aggro lists in the past with poor results. Having to keep the 3 mana up constantly to protect your team slows you down so much. Also once your opponent knows you have it they will just use their spot removal first and force you to use it when it's less effective. In a way holding up mana for this is the same as putting it in their hand.
Selfless spirit is interesting as it lets you stay tempo positive while still being protected. The downside is that it's fragile and not a zombie. Any random point removal hoses him and then they sweep your team, he also doesnt save you from tendrils or descend. He's not a zombie either, which so much of our deck is predicated on that i've heard of people cutting colossus to make room for these type of cards from the sb. Colossus is one of your absolute best weapons vs control and making that weaker on both ends by glutting on non zombies probably won't get you more wins. Colossus let's you go wide while comitting fewer cards and because of the counters he punishes earlier non-exile wipes. A 6/6 plus colosus is a nightmare for ur control they only have 4 harnessed lightning to deal with that.