Interesting take on using hellcarver. One this I think might help is lilliana because she can tutor up a bomb to carve into. Also, emrakul would be good because you actually get his timewalk. Maybe like 2 lilliana, some aids (for protection) and a couple emrakuls just for a nice bomb package. I really like the vengevines, never thought of putting them in.
So I was playing a casual game with my brother and he was playing a janky r/w lifegain/burn deck (i think I was playing a hellcarver demon based deck but that's not important) and he drop this card Thieve's Auction. I was like "what the Hell does that do?" so I read the card and just cracked up. It's one of favorite casual cards now. I just wanted to see if anyone's done anything fun with it.
Its for guys like you, who come and bash something rather than try to extend the topic and look forward into it that 50% of the format is fae. If you have no things to contribute to make this thing better then I don't see the point to your post.
And now on topic, I really think cumber stone COULD work, once it is in its just a matter of saving your counters for anything that could pump their fae, cliques and even CC. So im thinking we need a rather low CMC counter suit rather than cancels. Spell pierce perhaps?
Cumbe stone is cute but I don't think its good here. For it to be useful you really need to drop it turn 4. Even then it might be too late. And that leaves them free to drop mistbind clique, cryptic command, Scion of oona, vendillion clique or whatever else they have. Maybe testing will show that its still useful late game if you drop it with counter backup but I don't see that being thr case.
Instead of the painter combo, time vault / key might be better. Or just neither as you already have 2 combs going on here. Other things that might be fun are yawgmoth's will, grim discovery, thoughtseize, bob, and/or a fatty tinker target. Disclaimer: not a vintage player but I'm pretty familiar with the dark times deck which this seems to be similar to.
EDIT: also null rod.
EDIT EDIT: lol didn't realize how expensive vault was. My bad.
@myfriedbrain congrats on the top 8. It seems like you kinda got screwed having to put in skyfishers for figures. Anyway, have you tried elspeth or koth? Standard runs koth and elspeth is just nuts (it seems like her flying +1 would have been nice). Are you planning on continuing to play Boros or do you think it's a lost cause? Thanks for the great report.
Plumeveil is infinitely useful vs fae. I would run it all day over wall of omens. Demystify might be worth a slot in the board for bitterblossom and assorted other stuff like tempered steel and Pyromancer ascension. Beating fae takes a lot of tweak but I think a build with some dedicated hate could have an even to positive mu. The only question is whether tweaking to beat fae will ruin all the other matchups.
I really want this deck to be good because it will save me tons of money as I already have the majority of check cards but the aggro mu terrifies me. Especially steel artifact, I think you're underestimating how brutal that deck's speed is. I've said this before, but I want to repeat it, I think deprive is the way to go vs broken ambitions. I'm hitting up the store sometime this week to test for a legacy tourney this weekend so I'll try to convince someone to test extended with me as well. Until then I'll try to get my brother to test with me, but he hates playing against this kind of deck. Things I want to test are deprive, some different finishers (mainly frost tits), main deck vendillion clique, and this goofy idea I have about Leyline of anticipation. I also want to play around with the board but seeing as my ptq isn't till April that's not as important to me. One other thing I thought of is bloodbraid elf suck because it is always a 2-1. Either we counter it and the cascaded spell, or the counter it and they get a free spell anyways. Stupid Jund. Still doesn't seem like an awful mu though. I look forward to hearing more of your results and I'll put up my data as soon as I get someone to test with me.
EDIT: Another hugely problematic card will be great sable stag and with the amount of fae I'm sure it will be everywhere. We have gargoyle castles and Ratchet bombs but I don't know if I'm satisfied with those. We shall see I guess.
I've been toying with something like this in my head for a while too. One idea is to add Leyline/helm of obedience combo like the vintage dark times. Also, I might go monoblack and add more hand disruption (hymns at least maybe mb some duresses and throw in unmask), dark rits, led + infernal tutor and maybe mox diamond because its a good way to make extra copies of depths and urborg not suck so much. Sad sac is good times in board (or maybe even md) because first turn dark rit sad sac cripples combo. Innocent blood is cool too. I'm not sure about the blue splash, if anything I would say splash green for goyf, living wish and/or assorted creature tutors.
I just want to make sure, say you DR the sphinx, you can dredge on each draw right? So you can dredge 3 times (assuming you had 3 dredgers)
Also, for instance, if I DR the sphinx and i only had 1 dredger in the graveyard at the time but during the 1st dredging, another dredger hits the graveyard. Can I dredge the 2nd draw with that dredger? I hope I made sense.
Makes perfect sense and the answer is yes to both.
Cumber Stone? Never thought of that but its a funny idea. Realistically it is too slow and frail, but it may be a good call for some kind of Tezzeret deck, which my friend is looking to build so I'll suggest it to him. Also, I have never once casted Sphinx against the winged devils, never saw the need, I have won evey game thus far on the back of Gargoyle castles and tec edges recycled with brittle effigy and dug up with preordain, jace's ingenuity, and either thieve's fortune or jace, tms. Sphinx is the backup plan, it is mainly for aggro/midrange matches such as jund.
So you've done some testing with Jace? How's he working? Also, how do you think the steel artifact mu will be. It seems like it will be pretty weak to me as they can dump most of their hand by 2-3 and there's no way you can counter everything and you have no sweepers (cept Ratchet bomb I guess). Maybe I just don't understand the deck enough and spell piercing tempered steel is enough.
And @Otis; if you've ever played sphinx you'd know that when you DR him you actually do win. He'll get you those extra bridges when FKZ would look stupid with only 3 tokens. He'll get you Iona or Terastodon which you boarded in for a reason.
I actually play 2 mainboard cause if you DR it you win. Its basically #2 and 3 of any wincondition you want to DR.
On Unmaks; I know your feeling...I'm actually tending towards Thoughtseize and just hope I can do the whole timing and mana thing "good enough"...the pro of Unmask is (ofcourse) that you can use it the turn you want to win, without losing the mana you need for your draw spell.
On LED; I asked the same question, and I think LED is really gone with the wind
Thanks for the input. Would you mind sharing your list?
That's good stuff el_pato. Thanks for the link. I think I'll start there and see what I can do about some other archetypes.
Correct me if I'm wrong but other archetypes that seem worth testing against are wargate, steel artifact, a lark with Pyromancer ascension, elves, white weenie, and some kind of mythic conscription being maybes worth some testing but less focus.
And while I like the FKZ plan, I really think that it works much better with Sphinx of lost Truths support.
And for your sideboard I can only recommend Firestorm for the leftover slots
I'm not a big fan of sphinx because when I DR something I want to win with it not dredge more. However, 2 DR targets seems optimal, I run FKZ and Iona but I've also heard good things about sadistic hypnotist or eternal witness. In terms of the sideboard firestorm is solid, but some other things to consider would be pithing needle, chalice, ancestor's chosen, terastodon, or some lists have greater gargadon. Also, I'm not a big fan of darkblast. I would probably do -1 thug -1 Darkblast +1 DR target +1 study.
On another note one card I've been very underwhelmed with is unmask. I really want it as a 2 or 3 of for more protection but I never want to pitch anything to it. What are everyone's thoughts on it.
Also, does no one play LED Ichorid anymore? I like it better than the tribes version. Does that make me a bad person?
Cumbe stone is cute but I don't think its good here. For it to be useful you really need to drop it turn 4. Even then it might be too late. And that leaves them free to drop mistbind clique, cryptic command, Scion of oona, vendillion clique or whatever else they have. Maybe testing will show that its still useful late game if you drop it with counter backup but I don't see that being thr case.
EDIT: also null rod.
EDIT EDIT: lol didn't realize how expensive vault was. My bad.
EDIT: Another hugely problematic card will be great sable stag and with the amount of fae I'm sure it will be everywhere. We have gargoyle castles and Ratchet bombs but I don't know if I'm satisfied with those. We shall see I guess.
EDIT: For reference the vintage dark times thread http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=263761
Makes perfect sense and the answer is yes to both.
So you've done some testing with Jace? How's he working? Also, how do you think the steel artifact mu will be. It seems like it will be pretty weak to me as they can dump most of their hand by 2-3 and there's no way you can counter everything and you have no sweepers (cept Ratchet bomb I guess). Maybe I just don't understand the deck enough and spell piercing tempered steel is enough.
Thanks for the input. Would you mind sharing your list?
Correct me if I'm wrong but other archetypes that seem worth testing against are wargate, steel artifact, a lark with Pyromancer ascension, elves, white weenie, and some kind of mythic conscription being maybes worth some testing but less focus.
I'm not a big fan of sphinx because when I DR something I want to win with it not dredge more. However, 2 DR targets seems optimal, I run FKZ and Iona but I've also heard good things about sadistic hypnotist or eternal witness. In terms of the sideboard firestorm is solid, but some other things to consider would be pithing needle, chalice, ancestor's chosen, terastodon, or some lists have greater gargadon. Also, I'm not a big fan of darkblast. I would probably do -1 thug -1 Darkblast +1 DR target +1 study.
On another note one card I've been very underwhelmed with is unmask. I really want it as a 2 or 3 of for more protection but I never want to pitch anything to it. What are everyone's thoughts on it.
Also, does no one play LED Ichorid anymore? I like it better than the tribes version. Does that make me a bad person?