Probably a stupid question but how essential are mutavaults in the swords version? I wanna build this because I have most of the pieces from standard but don't really wanna drop the money on vaults.
So I don't know much about this deck in extended but I was wondering why no Rhox War Monk? Legacy Bant plays him and he's basically one of the best creatures in legacy.
So I did some research into the standard version and I found a few articles but no top 8s or anything. Anyway, I like the idea and wanted to make a few observations. First, duress is the best answer to v fallout it seems like. After you AN you will likely hit one and then you can win with protection.
It seems like there are two directions this deck can go: rebirth red with AN backup or RWD (or sligh if you like) with AN backup. I'm inclined to think the latter is the way to go because I've always thought rebirth red was quite weak. I haven't tested either version though so I just have my opinions to go on. Here's a few pros and cons for each.
Rebirth version: pros - AN is much safer, potentially more explosive, can drop AN earlier, makes better use of bushwhacker.
Cons - dead cards w/o rebirth or bushwacker (signal pest, thopter, arguably memnite and mox), more reliant on creatures therefore more vulnerable to fallout, more vulnerable to counters/ lacks inevitability
RDW version: pros - can run more burn, blightning, inevitability, better vca in that their creature removal will be dead more often
Cons - tougher time racing certain decks, AN is riskier, more vulnerable to leyline of sanctity
Some final thoughts: the more burn oriented the deck is the more it begs the question how necessary is AN? Death's shadow was a point of contention in the articles I read. I don't know what to think about it but I'll try it out. Sign in blood was another card that was argued about. I think it doesn't have a place but it might be worth testing.
I hope that someone cares enough about this deck to actually work on it. I think there's some definite potential here. I'll try to get someone to do some testing with me later today.
Exactly. I was thinking maybe a white splash so that you can bring Burrenton Forge-Tender out of the board? Volcanic Fallout is just such a glaring weakness it would be good to have an answer
Despite the fact that fallout is so devastating vs this deck splashing a color for 1 card seems kinda silly to me. A better option might be duress or IoK. The only real advantage I see of forgetender is that it doubles as a source of bushwhacker damage. Maybe springleaf drum and mox are enough to reasonably support forgetender though.
In another note what decks does this have trouble racing? Seems to me like it should be able to keep up with all the current aggro decks except maybe tempered steel. Maybe duress or IoK could help out with that too as hitting their "lords" is very powerful.
One more note, maybe devastating summons would be good. They use it in the standard rebirth red anyways.
So I just traded for these DoJs on Friday. I traded an arm and a leg for them but they were worth (IMO at least). They were done by the card's artist (Vincent Proce). The guy I traded for them actually got 2 sets of DoJs done by the artist at nationals, I liked this one better though.
I've been playing MUC for the last few weeks because I spent all my money on Jaces and didn't have enough to get duals. However, I bit the bullet and got all the U/W duals so I'm gonna play that tonight. I was just wondering what kind of build would be best in my meta. Valakut and U/B control aren't very prevalent. There's one guy who plays U/B every week and Valakut doesn't even show up every week. RUG/BUG, Vamps, Red Decks (RDW, Rebirth Red, Big Red, etc.) and assorted Ally decks are always there and consistently win/top 4.
So with that information in mind what kind of build do you think would be best: Caw-Go, super friends, traditional tap out, or traditional permission? When I was playing MUC, RUG/BUG was the most difficult matchup. Seeing as permission is probably closest to MUC I think that's not the way to go. Other than that I'm not sure. Help please!
i have been playing this on mws for a couple weeks among many others and its pretty consistent...can beat all competitive decks with an ideal hand...never one hundred percent...but you dont see too many bad hands unless its like 2 percy 2 demon and 3 land...rare...not tier 1 by any means...but lots of fun to bring to an fnm maybe. i might play it this weekend i have it and am tired of pyromancers and elves...if i do i will give a report
What about Scute Mob and/or Dragonmaster Outcast? Some other changes I might make would be:
-1 Cultivate, -2 Burst Lightning, -2 Kargan Dragonlord, -1 Bird of Paradise
+3 Dragonmaster Outcast, +3 Explore
Could also maybe use some Tectonic Edges. Maybe -1 Mountain, -1 Mystifying Maze; +2 Tectonic Edge
I think that with the titan you probably only need 1 maze and you don't need a whole playset of tec edges.
I've messed around with this in a vamps shell. The biggest problem is that you can't use Dark Tutelage. I forgot my exact list but it was basically a standard vamps deck with 2 or 3 demons, some Assault Strobes, and Sign in Blood. I like assault strobe better than tainted strike because then all your other vamp stuff still matters plus you can use it on anyone. My only burn spells were bolts and like I said there were no tutelages. I also may have cut some Viscera Seers. This is pretty close:
Because it's part of an infinite combo. It's actually a good card and can provide tempo and allow shenanigans with Echo Mage.
I'll start with Valakut.
Twitch can be used to tap their lands and slow them down. Echo Mage copies their spells so when they ramp, I do too. Realms Uncharted gets Tec. Edges and after board you can increase odds of getting them. Grim Discovery keeps them coming too. Then, Rite of Replication to copy their titans all day and they lose incredibly easy, they cannot stop echo mage... Silence also slows them down as they lose a turn, almost a timewalk vs them, it's pretty nice. Of course, the Leyline MD means that they HAVE to kill you with creatures which rite is house against (with echo mage of course). Skittering Invasion gives you tons of chumpers. Bring in Seas to help, but they aren't even necessary in testing and we may cut them from the board. Also, Fireball can come in to kill creatures or just burn face for win.
I'll post up more later, gotta eat dinner. Anyone wanna give the deck a shot? I'm curious to see what changes we can make. There are a few cards I think can come out as Valakut is just too easy (spreading seas maybe?).
The sideboard is super tentative but the mainboard I think is really starting to get fleshed out. Journey is in the sideboard because I just can't think of another way to answer problem creatures that never enter the red zone (i.e. Ezuri and Spikeshot elder/Cunning sparkmage + basilisk collar). The extra SoBaM is for Elves/Ramp. The extra brave the elements is for Red Decks and maybe other aggro decks. The extra basilisk collar is for ramp and control that just want to drop one fatty. Firewalkers for red. Baneslayer is for, well it's baneslayer. Sun Titans are there because I just needed three more spaces. One card I'm on the fence about is Leonin Arbiter because it's very powerful against ramp and Boros, but we have lots of fetchlands which makes it kind of a double edged sword. I really don't want to take steppe lynx out because it's so powerful. Our Boros matchup is already pretty good so it doesn't really want arbiter, but I haven't tested vs any ramp decks so I don't know how that will go.
As far as the main goes, emeria angel, squardon hawk, and to a lesser extent emeria, the sky ruin really help rebuild against sweepers but I'm also thinking about putting a singleton Elixir of Immortality to reshuffle weenies that get killed (mostly to buyback dead hawks). It works great in control decks, but I'm not sure if it will be good in this deck. Turn 2 honor is basically game in every match up. I wish they would reprint Crusade. Anyway, I like this much better than the quest ww decks because it is not so dependent on a t1 quest.
@mabberman: why steppe lynx but no adventuring gear? Elite Vanguard is probably a better choice than the Kor Duelists I had in my list. Also, I'm convinced student of warfare needs to be a 4 of in every list. White knight seems subpar mainboard as does journey. I would add more land and some kind of top end like Emeria Angel or sun Titan to provide some resilience to board sweeps. SoBaM can probably be a one of because of your mystics.
@cuddlydude25: exemplar is only good in tribal knights.
@Ebontail: umbras are so vulnerable to 2 for 1s I would rather run equipment. Steppe lynx can attack for 4 on turn 2. That's basically as explosive as it gets (5 with T2 honor). I agree with your thoughts on journey but sometimes I think there's not really a better solution. Although I guess something like more basilisk collars or more upper end creatures like baneslayer might be another alternative. Also, I don't understand why you would ever run memnite in a non quest build.
@NABU: I'm not a big fan of elspeth especially in a build like this. Same with conquerors pledge. I think you're better off with something like sun Titan or BSA. On another note I think ajani is a great idea.
EDIT: Brave the elements is a great card I forgot about. It shuts down Pyroclasm and allows for an alpha strike among other things.
It seems like there are two directions this deck can go: rebirth red with AN backup or RWD (or sligh if you like) with AN backup. I'm inclined to think the latter is the way to go because I've always thought rebirth red was quite weak. I haven't tested either version though so I just have my opinions to go on. Here's a few pros and cons for each.
Rebirth version: pros - AN is much safer, potentially more explosive, can drop AN earlier, makes better use of bushwhacker.
Cons - dead cards w/o rebirth or bushwacker (signal pest, thopter, arguably memnite and mox), more reliant on creatures therefore more vulnerable to fallout, more vulnerable to counters/ lacks inevitability
RDW version: pros - can run more burn, blightning, inevitability, better vca in that their creature removal will be dead more often
Cons - tougher time racing certain decks, AN is riskier, more vulnerable to leyline of sanctity
Some final thoughts: the more burn oriented the deck is the more it begs the question how necessary is AN? Death's shadow was a point of contention in the articles I read. I don't know what to think about it but I'll try it out. Sign in blood was another card that was argued about. I think it doesn't have a place but it might be worth testing.
I hope that someone cares enough about this deck to actually work on it. I think there's some definite potential here. I'll try to get someone to do some testing with me later today.
Despite the fact that fallout is so devastating vs this deck splashing a color for 1 card seems kinda silly to me. A better option might be duress or IoK. The only real advantage I see of forgetender is that it doubles as a source of bushwhacker damage. Maybe springleaf drum and mox are enough to reasonably support forgetender though.
In another note what decks does this have trouble racing? Seems to me like it should be able to keep up with all the current aggro decks except maybe tempered steel. Maybe duress or IoK could help out with that too as hitting their "lords" is very powerful.
One more note, maybe devastating summons would be good. They use it in the standard rebirth red anyways.
So with that information in mind what kind of build do you think would be best: Caw-Go, super friends, traditional tap out, or traditional permission? When I was playing MUC, RUG/BUG was the most difficult matchup. Seeing as permission is probably closest to MUC I think that's not the way to go. Other than that I'm not sure. Help please!
8 finishers seems excessive. Also why no highborns?
-1 Cultivate, -2 Burst Lightning, -2 Kargan Dragonlord, -1 Bird of Paradise
+3 Dragonmaster Outcast, +3 Explore
Could also maybe use some Tectonic Edges. Maybe -1 Mountain, -1 Mystifying Maze; +2 Tectonic Edge
I think that with the titan you probably only need 1 maze and you don't need a whole playset of tec edges.
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
4x Dragonskull Summit
4x Lavaclaw Reaches
10x Swamp
Creature
4x Vampire Lacerator
4x Pulse Tracker
2x Viscera Seer
4x Bloodghast
4x Kalastria Highborn
3x Demon of Death's Gate
4x Lightning Bolt
Sorcery
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Duress
4x Assault Strobe
4x Sign in Blood
Lol same here. Even though I just dropped $30 getting all the u/w duals for u/w control I feel compelled to take this to FNM.
EDIT:
Called it!
I'm not seeing the combo here...
Echo mage beats?
4x Arid Mesa
4x Marsh Flats
2x Emeria, the Sky Ruin
14x Plains
Creature (23)
2x Elite Vanguard
4x Steppe Lynx
4x Student of Warfare
3x Kor Skyfisher
4x Squadron Hawk
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Emeria Angel
2x Brave the Elements
Enchantment (4)
4x Honor of the Pure
Artifact (5)
2x Adventuring Gear
1x Basilisk Collar
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Trusty Machete
Planeswalker (2)
2x Ajani Goldmane
2x Baneslayer Angel
4x Kor Firewalker
3x Sun Titan
1x Basilisk Collar
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Brave the Elements
3x Journey to Nowhere
The sideboard is super tentative but the mainboard I think is really starting to get fleshed out. Journey is in the sideboard because I just can't think of another way to answer problem creatures that never enter the red zone (i.e. Ezuri and Spikeshot elder/Cunning sparkmage + basilisk collar). The extra SoBaM is for Elves/Ramp. The extra brave the elements is for Red Decks and maybe other aggro decks. The extra basilisk collar is for ramp and control that just want to drop one fatty. Firewalkers for red. Baneslayer is for, well it's baneslayer. Sun Titans are there because I just needed three more spaces. One card I'm on the fence about is Leonin Arbiter because it's very powerful against ramp and Boros, but we have lots of fetchlands which makes it kind of a double edged sword. I really don't want to take steppe lynx out because it's so powerful. Our Boros matchup is already pretty good so it doesn't really want arbiter, but I haven't tested vs any ramp decks so I don't know how that will go.
As far as the main goes, emeria angel, squardon hawk, and to a lesser extent emeria, the sky ruin really help rebuild against sweepers but I'm also thinking about putting a singleton Elixir of Immortality to reshuffle weenies that get killed (mostly to buyback dead hawks). It works great in control decks, but I'm not sure if it will be good in this deck. Turn 2 honor is basically game in every match up. I wish they would reprint Crusade. Anyway, I like this much better than the quest ww decks because it is not so dependent on a t1 quest.
@cuddlydude25: exemplar is only good in tribal knights.
@Ebontail: umbras are so vulnerable to 2 for 1s I would rather run equipment. Steppe lynx can attack for 4 on turn 2. That's basically as explosive as it gets (5 with T2 honor). I agree with your thoughts on journey but sometimes I think there's not really a better solution. Although I guess something like more basilisk collars or more upper end creatures like baneslayer might be another alternative. Also, I don't understand why you would ever run memnite in a non quest build.
@NABU: I'm not a big fan of elspeth especially in a build like this. Same with conquerors pledge. I think you're better off with something like sun Titan or BSA. On another note I think ajani is a great idea.
EDIT: Brave the elements is a great card I forgot about. It shuts down Pyroclasm and allows for an alpha strike among other things.