I've seen it floating around a bit and there have been some 5-0's in the past few months (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-wurg-44592#paper). I've been playing it for a bit and it seems pretty good but I can't find any discussion/primer past the one article that Gabriel Nassif wrote on CFB. It seems to run a lot of Zoo staples so maybe it's a zoo deck? Also I figure it can probably run BBE as well and maybe forgo Voice of Resurgence? Anyways, was wondering if anyone knew anything about this build and if it even could be considered Zoo. Thanks!
Hey I was the one who made this deck (InnocentFishes) and gave it to nassif (Bobthedog). There was a time on MTGO around when the jeskai breach deck top 8'ed where all the u control decks were either playing, living end, breach, or madcap. All of those wincons laugh at company and fold to counter magic as interaction, that combine with the additional burn spells making grixis shadow favored (im 18-3 vs it) made me want to go this direction over naya+coco. Overall the deck was pretty successful, i had a 68% win rate with it, i think nassif had something similar. Its a deck that is weak on power, but really just lives at the right speed, getting under what everyone is doing on the fair side, and packing enough interaction for nacatl + counters to win the combo matches.
If you're looking to label it, its a zoo deck for a time when combo is more prevalent than midrange and accepts that.
I'm thinking on bringing this deck to a 50-man tournament this weekend, but the meta has a fair amount of Blood Moon decks.
How does this deck plays against decks like Skred Red, Kiki Moon or Mono Red Prison ? What about decks with GQ and Field of Ruin ?
Would you rather play this or GDS in an meta where you expect a certain amount of those cards ?
I would rather play Jund in this meta, but if there really are that many blood moon decks seriously consider adding a forest. My basic heuristic is id rather being playing jund+subborn denial than grixis vs any deck that doesn't play snapcaster mage or fatal push, and id really rather be grixis if they play both. the red & red/blue blood moon decks are really weak to tarmogoyf and deaths shadow as threats, as well as temur battle rage and stubborn denial.
Has anyone tried cutting white from the sideboard for Kcomm/snapcaster mage package to go long? After some testing im sold on hazoret over ranger and as big mana decks gain traction im at the point where I want fluminator mages/surgicals or lots of temur battle rages. Once you add fulminator+surgical kcomm and snap start looking really appealing. With access to traverse we can probably be just as good a snapcaster/kcomm deck as grixis with only like 2 of each.
I'm going to run a few leagues with something like this: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/859141#paper. Snapcaster/Hazoret main might prove to be greedy, i could see moving one to the sideboard replacing it with an extra temur battle rage, and removing golgari charm from the list.
I dropped white after adding hazoret to the main, as that helps the grixis matchup a lot. the main issue with running white and blue is i want a really good affinity/eldrazi tron matchup and cant get the slots to do that splashing both.
@plybenk123, we're much worse against any of the snapcaster mage decks. much better against the artifact decks, about even against the combo decks, and probably a bit better against the green creature deck.
Both decks are equally interactive, grixis is probably a bit smoother, but its also slower. Jund often wins by creating an opening and pressing that advantage without ever coming close to taking full control of the game. Grixis actually establishes control a bit more often due to being able to grind with snap + K comm
@Davos I have only played like 3 leagues with ghor clan but i have never been impressed with it, it does so much less damage than temur battle rage. when running it vs combo decks i often found myself in a situation where termur battle rage would be lethal, and ghor clan just wasn't which cost me the game.
The deck is certainly still good, I play it almost exclusively on MTGO floating around a 70% win rate, and I'm certainly worse than your average day 2 GP player. I think the lack of discussion has been mainly due to the recent decklist restriction and the lack of modern events surrounding the PT.
One innovation that i haven't seen discussed a lot here is the addition of 1 hazoret, which significantly improved the deck by giving points vs uw control and grixis, which needed some help. As anyone who has played against grixis knows its very common to iok/ts them and see a bunch of removal+ snaps, the addition of hazoret to the deck instantly changes this position from one in which you are very likely to lose to one in which you are likely to win.
There are a few idea's i have been kicking around but haven't quite worked out yet.
1) because of traverse if you can find room for 2 blue sources the addition of a 1-2 snapcaster mages likely makes you a better snapcaster deck than Grixis. Though maybe with out thoughtscour/serum visions snap is to reactive.
2) I'm fairly certain I want access to blue in the SB, much less convinced of white. I'd love to cut white if i can find a 2nd powerful traverse target outside of harzoret for the U/W & grixis matchups. Thrun so far has not been great. If i cut white, id love to get a rec sage in there to answer bridge and leylines.
@DavosChain, its hard to say without knowing what your 3 slot looks like now, but i haven't been on 2 decay in like 100 matches. So id suggest the choice is between Kcomm, terminate, and dismember. Term/dismember are better against grixis, Kcomm is better vs the field. Personally for 3's im on 2-3 LotV 1-2 Kcomm.
Is it essential, no not like goyf or deaths shadow. Is it good? Yeah its pretty good. There are certainly arguments for not running it, but it kills mirran crucader, and in matchups like adnaus and scapeshift it can be hard to turn on traverse because your creatures don't die and they have no targets for your instants, so it helps a lot their. Also the more I play the deck the more i tarfire myself, it comes up a surprising amount.
If you cut it you really have to ask yourself if red is worth it. Reid duke had an abzan version a while back that might be good now.
I haven't had the chance to test claim//fame out but I'd be surprised if its what put us over the top of grixis. If we're playing this over grixis I think its because we're better against the hate: temur battle rage vs go wide and big mana decks, tarfire+lotv vs mirrian, decay vs rip/challice.
I will test it for sure but here's what has me skeptical of the card:
1) the 3 most played decks in the format are Etron ,Grixis, and affinity. vs Etron and affinity id prefer Kcomm by a mile, and against grixis its close, but prob in claim//fame's favor.
2) a huge section of the rest of the metagame is G/W/x decks, and combo decks. Which either deal with our creatures by path, ignore them, or chump them.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern/full#paper of the top 18 decks, only 4 actually kill creatures with removal spells. The only thing that really excites me about claim is discarding anything of value to lili is impactful in deck that makes such efficient use of its resources.
Its hard to say without knowing if he knows about the lili. If he doesn't know about the lili you definitely don't traverse for land. It would be correct for him to gurmag before removal in that case so its still very likely he has removal spells in hand and you're going to need more threats.
If you're on lingering souls/ranger you can afford to go a bit longer which makes lili slightly more attractive. But if not cards trade pretty interchangeably in this matchup so you plusing to discard your decay/push isnt' actually great. Next turn if he has any decent hand he's either going to be playing a shadow or playing a removal spell, and in both those cases your covered by not traversing for a land so i think its okay to wait.
Of the blue decks Jeskai and Grixis play fairly similar, where you trade resources with your opponent and try and either grind them out or get small advantages and win with whats left over. Esper and UW usually play a little differently, where they control the game up to a point where they resolve a large threat and try and win with it (be it gifts, or sun titan, elspeth, or maybe now thoptor sword). Ultimately I really like trading resources and grinding out advantage which drew me to grixis/jeskai play style. I switch between the two fairly often, the main difference between jeskai and grixis is how great white sideboard cards are. Grixis probably has a better game 1 win rate than jeskai, but things like rule of law, stony silence, wear/wear tear, celestial purge are huge in winning sideboarded games. Grixis also tends to have more polerizing matchups, for example the burn matchup for grixis is very bad. Jeskai doesn't have very many matchups that it just folds to besides tron, which all control decks did(not sure if they still do)
Thing in the Ice being both sorcery speed and dying to abrupt decay/terminate is a huge cost seeing as we run a ton of 2 mana counters, and normally blank removal g1. I could see it being good in a build similar to what Jacob wilson was playing where you have access to serum visions and already have targets for opponents removal.
Has anyone tested out goblin dark dwellers out in a build with 4x visions? I'm really skeptical of a 5mana sorcery speed threat in the main deck, and its hard for me to believe its better than a keranos.
Infect and Affinity are hurt more by Melira, both can be rough without her. She's also infinitely easier to cast and better against Burn a lot of the time because of not needing to double fetch.
And perhaps most importantly she doesnt time you out on MTGO
Steppe to protect the combo could be good, i'll test it but i'm skeptical of come into play taplands. As far as results go my only losses in the past few dailies & 8mans have been to elves and twin.
On the topic of secondary combos with redcap, its important that everyone know melira+anafenza+redcap makes every creature besides the redcap infinitely large. This combo is very important because it gets around Linvala, leyline of sanctity, and is way to win if you don't have a sac outlet. This is also the preferred combo to go to in the face of a single removal spell, because your combo piece will remain intact if a removal spell hits the melira or anafenza.
Varolz plays a pretty significant role in the abzan and twin matchups, in both of those matchups where you are trading off resources his ability to be a huge threat and reset fink's is pretty great. That said, for playing online at least, i could see running a swarm over a second seer.
A few interesting tools I have been testing over the past few days.
1) I'd strongly recommend some # of horizon canopy, particularly in knight builds, with enough mana it allows the infinite life combo to function as a demonic tutor, rather than a vampiric.
2) If your running knight, test an arena in the board. It provides an uncountable way to disrupt twin, and in abzan/jund matchups a knight or large voice token can generally beat anything in a fight.
I think my biggest issue with the deck right now, is elves. Which is already quite popular online and i suspect will become even more popular after the next big event. We lose to all the same hatecards as elves and are quite a bit slower.
Hey I was the one who made this deck (InnocentFishes) and gave it to nassif (Bobthedog). There was a time on MTGO around when the jeskai breach deck top 8'ed where all the u control decks were either playing, living end, breach, or madcap. All of those wincons laugh at company and fold to counter magic as interaction, that combine with the additional burn spells making grixis shadow favored (im 18-3 vs it) made me want to go this direction over naya+coco. Overall the deck was pretty successful, i had a 68% win rate with it, i think nassif had something similar. Its a deck that is weak on power, but really just lives at the right speed, getting under what everyone is doing on the fair side, and packing enough interaction for nacatl + counters to win the combo matches.
If you're looking to label it, its a zoo deck for a time when combo is more prevalent than midrange and accepts that.
I would rather play Jund in this meta, but if there really are that many blood moon decks seriously consider adding a forest. My basic heuristic is id rather being playing jund+subborn denial than grixis vs any deck that doesn't play snapcaster mage or fatal push, and id really rather be grixis if they play both. the red & red/blue blood moon decks are really weak to tarmogoyf and deaths shadow as threats, as well as temur battle rage and stubborn denial.
I'm going to run a few leagues with something like this: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/859141#paper. Snapcaster/Hazoret main might prove to be greedy, i could see moving one to the sideboard replacing it with an extra temur battle rage, and removing golgari charm from the list.
lantto, who along with butakov and gerryt are probably the people who should be listened to most on the deck posted a pretty good pros-cons list here(http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/magnus-lantto/choosing-the-right-flavor-of-deaths-shadow). though i think claim//fame is unplayable in jund and wouldn't follow his list.
Both decks are equally interactive, grixis is probably a bit smoother, but its also slower. Jund often wins by creating an opening and pressing that advantage without ever coming close to taking full control of the game. Grixis actually establishes control a bit more often due to being able to grind with snap + K comm
@Davos I have only played like 3 leagues with ghor clan but i have never been impressed with it, it does so much less damage than temur battle rage. when running it vs combo decks i often found myself in a situation where termur battle rage would be lethal, and ghor clan just wasn't which cost me the game.
One innovation that i haven't seen discussed a lot here is the addition of 1 hazoret, which significantly improved the deck by giving points vs uw control and grixis, which needed some help. As anyone who has played against grixis knows its very common to iok/ts them and see a bunch of removal+ snaps, the addition of hazoret to the deck instantly changes this position from one in which you are very likely to lose to one in which you are likely to win.
There are a few idea's i have been kicking around but haven't quite worked out yet.
1) because of traverse if you can find room for 2 blue sources the addition of a 1-2 snapcaster mages likely makes you a better snapcaster deck than Grixis. Though maybe with out thoughtscour/serum visions snap is to reactive.
2) I'm fairly certain I want access to blue in the SB, much less convinced of white. I'd love to cut white if i can find a 2nd powerful traverse target outside of harzoret for the U/W & grixis matchups. Thrun so far has not been great. If i cut white, id love to get a rec sage in there to answer bridge and leylines.
If you cut it you really have to ask yourself if red is worth it. Reid duke had an abzan version a while back that might be good now.
I will test it for sure but here's what has me skeptical of the card:
1) the 3 most played decks in the format are Etron ,Grixis, and affinity. vs Etron and affinity id prefer Kcomm by a mile, and against grixis its close, but prob in claim//fame's favor.
2) a huge section of the rest of the metagame is G/W/x decks, and combo decks. Which either deal with our creatures by path, ignore them, or chump them.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern/full#paper of the top 18 decks, only 4 actually kill creatures with removal spells. The only thing that really excites me about claim is discarding anything of value to lili is impactful in deck that makes such efficient use of its resources.
If you're on lingering souls/ranger you can afford to go a bit longer which makes lili slightly more attractive. But if not cards trade pretty interchangeably in this matchup so you plusing to discard your decay/push isnt' actually great. Next turn if he has any decent hand he's either going to be playing a shadow or playing a removal spell, and in both those cases your covered by not traversing for a land so i think its okay to wait.
Has anyone tested out goblin dark dwellers out in a build with 4x visions? I'm really skeptical of a 5mana sorcery speed threat in the main deck, and its hard for me to believe its better than a keranos.
And perhaps most importantly she doesnt time you out on MTGO
On the topic of secondary combos with redcap, its important that everyone know melira+anafenza+redcap makes every creature besides the redcap infinitely large. This combo is very important because it gets around Linvala, leyline of sanctity, and is way to win if you don't have a sac outlet. This is also the preferred combo to go to in the face of a single removal spell, because your combo piece will remain intact if a removal spell hits the melira or anafenza.
A few interesting tools I have been testing over the past few days.
1) I'd strongly recommend some # of horizon canopy, particularly in knight builds, with enough mana it allows the infinite life combo to function as a demonic tutor, rather than a vampiric.
2) If your running knight, test an arena in the board. It provides an uncountable way to disrupt twin, and in abzan/jund matchups a knight or large voice token can generally beat anything in a fight.
I think my biggest issue with the deck right now, is elves. Which is already quite popular online and i suspect will become even more popular after the next big event. We lose to all the same hatecards as elves and are quite a bit slower.