MTG Salvation

Lol, more than the next 3 combined.

But we'll still have to see how it converts into top 32 before making any conclusions.

Quote from MrTzoulis »

It has busted draws, but they're no more busted than the nuts with Humans/Spirits or GDS. Are they unfair decks? If not then phoenix isn't an unfair deck, if they are, then it is. It depends on how do you define "unfair" in a format were unfair/broken is par for the course.

Blatantly false. None of those other decks have a nut draw anywhere near as good as the Phoenix decks.
The high damage potential of humans and spirits only really start on turn 3 on their very best draws.

Aight fair enough.

Quote from Ym1r »

In my view this is an expected result, as people who enjoy it don't really have an incentive to actually post about it, and goes against the narrative that we saw in the State of Modern thread about a silent vocal majority that actually hates the format.

said by you on page 1

Quote from ktkenshinx »

it undermines the theory of a silent majority of players who dislike Modern and actually supports a theory of a vocal minority of players who dislike Modern.

said by KTK just above.

Quote from Ym1r »

You are saying that there is a large group of people that they are not posting BECAUSE they don't like the format. However, as both the results and KTK have demonstrated the same (if even more so) can be said for the people who DO like modern.

Yes and? The 2 things aren't mutually exclusive. Just because there are people not posting because they enjoy Modern, doesn't mean that the same can't happen for those who don't. Both statements can be true.

Good lord, none of us EVER said anything about a silent MAJORITY of players who dislike modern. How far are you guys going to go with this false narrative.

Quote from Ym1r »

Let's not keep a narrative of a silent group that just dislikes the format but doesn't talk about it, doesn't want to talk about it, but is oppressed by the people who actually like the format. It doesn't make sense. I think the total N we have from both polls is enough to give a clear picture of the active playerbase.

What? There's maybe 5 people who are actively critical of Modern and there are 30 voters who do not enjoy Modern. It is indicative that there IS a silent group of people who are not enjoying Modern but are not actively posting about it.

And taking the results from the reddit poll. As of the time of this post there's almost 1000 voters. It's quite clear that a significant amount of players do not enjoy Modern, around 25% on both reddit and MTGS.

Yeah of course you can (sleeve up an interactive deck - sign up for an event - have some moderate success) play interactive magic in this metagame, that was never really up for debate. It's just sub optimal.

Technically you can also play basketball with 1 hand and score some points here and there, doesn't mean it's a good idea to do so when everyone else is using 2 hands.

we're getting a walker a pack in WOTS but realistically most of them are not going to be constructed playable. They did this before when they put a DFC in every pack and we only really got a handful of playable ones.

Will be counting it as a win if there even 5 modern-playable walkers in WOTS.

Yeah but none of us ever said that we were a majority. That narrative wasn't created by us. If anything, your side of the fence pushed it on us.

Like we KNOW we are a minority, but there just might be more of us than you may think, that's all. None of this majority BS.

Yeah 20% might not seem like much but you can't tell me 200 out of 1000 is not a lot, what about 2k out of 10k?. It's not a majority like you try to imply, but that's definitely still a lot of people who don't enjoy the format.

Yeah I know, results not statistically significant and all that jazz, before anyone wants to jump down my throat.

I have no issue whatsoever with the results of the poll so far. I actually expected something like this. My beef is this false narrative pushed on us.

What narrative was there about a silent majority of modern haters? AFAIK all that was said is that there are a portion of players who are not enjoying Modern, and therefore are not posting about Modern anymore because they/we longer feel an attachment to it.

Nobody on the 'not enjoying modern' side of the fence said anything about a silent majority of the player base being modern haters.

30.8% might be a while away from being a majority but its sure as hell still a very significant amount. That's 30% who would make the switch if there's a viable and accessible alternative. Even if we take into account this theory that users who are unhappy with the format are more likely to post about it and chop that to 20% or 15%, that's still a significant percentage.

Not everything has to be comcast levels of horrible customer satisfaction to be considered as significant.

I agree that there have been some dumb missed opportunities from wizards (see above), but it's disingenuous to think that they haven't done anything right in that time. Ancestral was a big push in the right direction, fatal push was both gigantic and necessary (and the announcement that they're making it a promo is a great move on their part, too). Grixis control and fae have both benefited greatly from that. There was the entirety of modern masters. Experimental GGT unbanning and the correct assessment to re-ban shows that they're at least willing to try things in regards to modern and the ban list. Nahiri gave jeskai a (watered down) finisher and did the same for sun/moon prison decks. They ARE actively trying to help modern.

As frustrating as it can be to see them miss a card design opportunity that may seem obvious for us, it doesn't spell the end of the world. The fact of the matter is blue, historically, is the color you have to tread most carefully around. And it's not just blue, it's specifically blue to help draw/go control. A deck that is based around the idea that they can answer all of your opponents threats - on their turn no less - is dangerous. It's understandable that they want to be so cautious.

I almost wrote a full page rant but I'll try to temper it.

Graveyard hate should be a fixture in ALL modern sideboards. The graveyard is a resource to be utilised and is used by storm, dredge, grixis (all forms), death shadow, snapcaster decks, knightfall and an ever increasing number of green creature decks all in the top 2 tiers.
Players need to stop clamouring for bans simply because they don't like a deck or don't want to dedicate sideboard slots against these decks.
As a community we also need to stop whining the instant something is good. Adapt, try new things and enjoy the format. Change is good (and maybe if we're lucky, toys come off the ban list rather than get added ruining people's investments and enjoyment of the game)

I keep on saying this, but it appears to be gaining more traction, so I'll say it again; We really need to have a thread dedicated to twin discussion where people can just copy and paste the same arguments they keep making here, but without hijacking the entire thread. Everything does not in fact relate to twin.

"Oh, a combo deck is doing well? You know what OTHER combo deck did well"

"*x* deck is too strong? You know what would have kept it in check?!?"

"I agree blue should have better cards, now let me explain why unbanning this red card will fix that for the next 30 pages."

"Why should *x* be banned/unbanned when twin was banned/could be unbanned?"

"Why is the meta share for *x* ok when twin's was *cherry-picked stats*"

Quote from cfusionpm »

Quote from gkourou »

Abzan Coco is pretty favourable against Jund Death's Shadow. That I can surely say.

In fact, about Abzan Coco, the deck has 50/50's everywhere(but not too many 60/40's or 70/30's to receive a banning), but in my books thats a great thing.

Even against Ad nauseam, Storm, or Tron you win with the Turn 3 kill with the new combo if you have it. It also crushes the fair decks with Eternal Witness, Chord Of Calling, Collected Company, Renegade Rallier, Sheenanigans. Too much value into one deck for the fair decks to handle and too much quickness into one deck for the unfair decks to handle. It has the whole package of 50-50's if you are into that.

BUT! Again, it's TOO EASILY disruptable and nearly everything has game against it. This is the reason why ABZAN COCO WILL NEVER RECEIVE A NERF. Please, people, stop it.
Also, it can be hated out. Leyline, Rest In Peace and all of the attrition spells.

Abzan Company is perfectly safe and OK. People need to realize that. Please, stop the banmania.

A resilient combo deck that is easily disrupted and can be hit by targeted hate with mostly 50/50 matchups and runs a solid value beatdown back up plan... Why does this sound so familiar? And why is this one OK?

I have nothing against Twin, but in addition to what Pokken said, the fact that the combo pieces are CMC 2 creatures with less than 3 toughness makes them way more vulnerable to removal than Twin, which wasn't vulnerable to Lightning Bolts unless you used it on Pestermite or Bounding Krasis (in Temur builds) and couldn't be popped by Fatal Push without Revolt. Not to mention the buffed version of the deck has only been around for about a month, whereas Twin had been around for quite some time. This isn't to say that Twin necessarily deserves to be banned (a ring I'd rather not throw my hat into), but it's definitely too early to say that this deck was as good as Twin at fighting against disruption, and it's too new to have put up the same track record in tournaments as Twin, so I don't see why this deck's existence should be tied in any way to Twin's

A lot of decks kill on t3 and a decent number kill on t2. In order for company to do it on t3 you needed to let them play a Devoted Druid and pass with it then play a vizier and resolve a third card. If your deck isn't interacting with any of that by t3 then you would lose to almost any storm, burn, or death shadow deck.

Quote from gkourou »

Day 2 Metagame Breakdown SCGKY:
Team Constructed Open

Modern
Dredge – 4
Counters Company – 3
Affinity – 2
Jund Death’s Shadow – 2
Abzan Death’s Shadow – 2
Eldrazi Tron – 2
U/W Control – 2
W/R Prison – 2
Ad Nauseam – 1
Jeskai Control – 1
Four-Color Death’s Shadow – 1
Kiki-Evolution – 1
Burn – 1
8-Rack – 1
Merfolk – 1
Bant Spirits – 1
U/R Gifts Storm – 1
Bant Eldrazi – 1
Iron Works Combo – 1

Keep in mind this is a team event where individual decks mean literally nothing. Any single deck could 9-0 and miss day 2 if their teammates bombed, or 2-7 the first day and be carried by their teammates' victories. Either way, these deck lists are totally meaningless. Teammates aren't even playing the same format; each team member is playing a Standard, Modern, or Legacy deck. And while I think these kinds of events are absolutely fascinating and interesting to watch, the results are ultimately useless.

Your logic has deep and large holes in it. By asking on whether I should wait or not is complaining to you than I am anxious to see what kind of advice you ask to people.

$600 pays rent for an apartment where i live, it pays for 2 car payments. You have issues if you believe that people like spending that much on mtg. New flash buddy no one does at all. Wether it be 300$ or 1000$

If its so cheap than throw me the mox opals. Thats 6% of the deck and if the deck is so cheap than 6% shouldnt be any trouble.

By asking about iconic masters i am asking about speculations. i am asking because there are ppl who actually study trends, study mtg finances, reprint rates etc etc That could give me a well educated speculation as to wether or not to wait until november for half off mox opals than that would.

You should refrain from posting your useless criticisms and to be honest should actually try to give advice or at least answer the question.

Quote from GoST- »

Proactive decks run interaction primarily to further their game plan.

Reactive decks run interaction primarily to disrupt the opponent's game plan.

Or are we saying that lightning bolt to remove a blocker is not considered interactive, but lightning bolt to remove an attacker is considered interactive ?

This. So much this.Like I discussed a few pages back, decks in the "fair floor" are confronted by a speed-interaction trade-off curve, but there are no deck with literal speed-0 or interaction-0. Even control decks gotta win eventually and even aggro decks interact to win their races. Burn siding in Path, Palm or Revelry and Thought-Knot Seer taking Supreme Verdict are fine examples of interaction, not even taking into account that combat steps are interactive as well. This thread, however, often disregards this and acts like the only decks that interact are the mostly-interactive ones. You know, hyperbole

Also, since you guys were discussing the metagame, here are my updated numbers (and the change from last month):

• UR Storm - 8.7% (+2.1%)
• Colorless Eldrazi - 7.7% (+1.0%)
• Affinity - 7.7% (+1.0%)
• Naya Burn - 6.7% (+3.3%)
• Abzan Company - 6.7% (+6.3%)
• WU Control - 5.6% (+2.3%)
• Jund Shadow - 5.1% (+0.8%)
• Elves - 4.1% (+0.1%)
• Dredge - 3.6% (-4.1%)
• Grixis Shadow - 3.1% (-1.9%)

Again, I really like that last month's top dog (Dredge - 7.7%) has been replaced, which to me signals an evolving metagame. And this month's race to the top is a close one as well. Shadow decks remaining at the top, but at much reasonable numbers is also nice. The other notable change would be Abzan Company's rise due to Vizier of Remedies (thanks Amonkhet!). Also, WU Control hasn't been this high since I started tracking this data back in Jan 2016. Any thoughts?

Quote from Tanukimo »

Quote from acc95 »

Quote from Tanukimo »

Can anyone explain to me how the Tier system has changed on this site? Does it have to do with Ktkenshinx leaving?

Apparently, Lantern has changed both the data source and the tiering cutoffs. Now it seems +1% decks are Tier 2 and +3% decks are Tier 1, roughyl. No official layout and/or explanation of changes by any mod so far.

Thank you. It would be nice if the staff were more transparent about it.

I am. Did you message me? Ive also been commenting on all the deck threads that asked about it.

I'm not a god, I'm not telepathic. I'm a Television Studio Producer. I work about 75 hours a week, and do this on the side. No one is paying me. And my main Mod, who I trained and have been working with for literally years is leaving me. Next time anyone requests me to magically fix everything, they can just quote this.

No offence. I've been modding this sub for literally a decade at this point, and its mostly people telling me how things are wrong. Sometimes I get thanked, most times I dont. I'm training 2 new mods now, so Maybe I can be free enough to actually do more work in the tiering.

I'll be as clear as day here... and again. Yall can quote me on this if anyone asks again, it would save me the leg work of people thinking Im shafting them.

THERE IS NO GOOD DATA FOR ME TO DRAW ON. Point blank. I can use MTG goldfish, but their data is incomplete and they only hold a month of data on file, and when they update they dump 3 weeks of data and start fresh every month. Thats pretty bad for a non rotating slow to change format.

I can use top 8, like I'm doing right now, that does 2 months of data, but has random data holes and weighs everything pretty equally. So theres problems there too.

I can use modern nexus... when they remember to update. They are always late, and depending on them lately has been like throwing a paper plane and hoping it comes back sometime. (If you are reading this modern nexus, sorry. I was extremely pleased by the site, but every update has been weeks late for about a half a year now.)

I can use mainphase's data. Even messaged them (because people assume I havent been trying to fix this problem) asking about the data and more information. Im waiting on replies.

To be clear. You are asking me to be on top of an issue that has no good answers while I also have to feed my family AND train 2 new mods and clean up a forum missing the best partner I ever had.

I'm not going to ask for sympathy over here, or call out selfishness, but I will ask for understanding and patience. Come on. Cut some slack.