This was sent to me and although I can't guarantee authenticity, it was sent by a legitimate & reliable source.
Sword of War and Peace 3
Equipped creature gets +2/+2 and has protection from red and from white.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, destroy target nonbasic land that player controls, and put a +1/+1 counter on target creature you control.
Equip 2
Doom Blade is the best removal right now, and that it CAN'T kill Grave Titan. Why isn't that included in your comparison? Also, if you're going to give Sphinx of Jwar Isle a "+1" for surviving spot removal, wouldn't you have to give that to Wurmcoil Engine in most situations too?
Ugh myblackplague at your comparison...
You could easily reverse that and compare grave titan directly with sphinx.
Both die to day of judgement, no difference there.
Sphinx can't be touched by spot removal, grave will always leave behind some tokens, small advantage to the sphinx.
Sphinx dies to sac effects, grave titan laughs at them, small advantage to the titan.
Sphinx has evasion, grave titan is 10 power and makes more power as he goes, small advantage to the titan.
Sphinx can't trade/deal with other titans, grave titan can trade and get a whole bunch of tokens, huge advantage to the titan.
Sphinx has no board presence, grave titan can block lots of guys easily. HUGE advantage to the titan.
This. Now, I'm not saying I don't love Sphinx, because I do, especially in the right meta. But, I think with some evaluation, Grave Titan makes more sense. Also, running 13 counters, just wait for DoJ and don't let it land.
If you look at the TCG 5k Boston that just happened, not a single sphinx was played in the four U/B decks that were top 16 or higher.
Yes, Mike Bregoli decided on 2 Frost Titan instead of 2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle. I don't hate any of the 4 choices we're facing, I just prefer some over the other (especially since I'm looking to control even the control mirror).
I'm going to use Doom Blade as the removal example because it is the best removal in standard. Yes, Lightning Bolt is still very good, and Condemn to a lesser extent, but they're both very mediocre against large creatures.
Grave Titan
10 power for 4BB
Doesn't die to Doom Blade
... this is where it gets interesting: Although Grave Titan can die to double Bolt or Condemn (6 life for me? yes please!), your opponent still needs to deal with the tokens you're generating up resolution and declaration of attackers. This forces your opponent to have multiple forms of removal once it hits (whereas Frost Titan can be removed with 1 spell + 2).
Therefore, I'll be testing Grave Titan MD in a gauntlet to see how it's "blackness?" improves or hurts match-ups.
Feel free to disagree, maybe I'm just trying to convince myself?
Pretty much this. As mentioned, it hits early drop creatures that may otherwise slip under our counters. In most cases, it's basically a preemptive Remove Soul for 1 mana.
So we got a couple more lists today with the results from TCG's WWS Boston 5k coming in. We had 4 of the top 10 decks if anyone is interested. Anyways, I notice a distinct difference in Permission v Tap-Out Control and their use of Everflowing Chalice. You'll notice that not one of the Permission decks ran Chalice, but every Tap-Out did. Can we state absolutely that Chalice is a Tap-Out only card choice, or is there some evidence to the contrary?
I can, but it's unnecessary. I use Matt Bartums' winning list for Permission and Nick Spagnolo's winning list for Tap-Out. They're both already in the first page of the thread.
As I stated previously, it completely depends on your build. Permission builds test much better with Sphinx of Jwar Isle, whereas Tap-Out control is better suited for Titans. I'd agree that Titans can kill 1 turn earlier, but they also die MUCH easier. So you have to weigh the good and the bad.
FYI: currently at 16 three game rounds played with Jwar Jwar Permission Control. 18 three game rounds played with Frost Titan. Our gauntlet consists of every prevalent build top 8'n SCG 5k and Top 8 States.
U/B Tapout/Mid Range was way to inconsistent for me. I'm playing the permission list to always have the counters, to always have CA, to always have answers before we get to problems like a resolved Wurmcoil and Gatekeeper in hand :|
It isn't a bad idea to have different threats. That's a vague statement. Who said it was a bad idea? I just now prefer always drawing into counters so i can err counter their ☺☺☺☺, go ultimate with Jace after grinding away for 7 turns and beat face with lands
I hated drawing Gatekeeper when i wanted Percy vice-versa for everything. The only thing i now miss is always drawing into my next draw card.
Yeah, I felt the same. Tap-out control just didn't seem to have the power of Permission and it many times included dead draws (Gatekeeper when your opponent has 3-5 creatures, maybe some Eldrazi Spawn tokens, etc).
Well, best of luck with the deck, it seems like it might situationally good, but I just don't see you getting everything you need at the right time to be as good as a straight UBCP or Tap-Out.
BTW: I was saying Negate > Deprive as in drop the deprive, that's a much better 2 drop counter, and you don't need 12 of them.
Deprive seems like a poor choice here. I'd rather have Negate, which is extremely relevant currently. However, I assume you plan to combine that with Halimar Depths... which again I'm not a fan of lol. I'd look for less CIPT and a better counter.
Right I understand that...but sometimes things don't go according to plan...and even in a permission build some things sneak through. So why is it a bad idea to have different kinds of threats?
It's not. However Sphinx isn't the only threat. Both Jaces are a direct threat, as well as Tar Pits. Also, when things do land, you have Into the Roil, Jace, Doom Blade, etc to deal with them. I prefer the permission build, as the more traditional control suits me.
IDK, 4 Doom Blade (with 4 Smother SB) and a fist full of counters has worked just fine for me. However, if you're going to add something, I'd recommend Disfigure, as Smother is far to situational MD.
Sword of War and Peace 3
Equipped creature gets +2/+2 and has protection from red and from white.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, destroy target nonbasic land that player controls, and put a +1/+1 counter on target creature you control.
Equip 2
Doom Blade is the best removal right now, and that it CAN'T kill Grave Titan. Why isn't that included in your comparison? Also, if you're going to give Sphinx of Jwar Isle a "+1" for surviving spot removal, wouldn't you have to give that to Wurmcoil Engine in most situations too?
This. Now, I'm not saying I don't love Sphinx, because I do, especially in the right meta. But, I think with some evaluation, Grave Titan makes more sense. Also, running 13 counters, just wait for DoJ and don't let it land.
Yes, Mike Bregoli decided on 2 Frost Titan instead of 2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle. I don't hate any of the 4 choices we're facing, I just prefer some over the other (especially since I'm looking to control even the control mirror).
My next venture in testing will replace 2 MD Sphinx of Jwar Isle with 2 MD Grave Titan. Most of my testing has been with Frost Titan, but I feel that Grave Titan may be the answer here, and this is why:
I'm going to use Doom Blade as the removal example because it is the best removal in standard. Yes, Lightning Bolt is still very good, and Condemn to a lesser extent, but they're both very mediocre against large creatures.
Sphinx of Jwar Isle
5 power for 4UU
Shroud, Flying
Doesn't die to Doom Blade
Frost Titan
6 power for 4UU
Psuedo Shroud, Tap Effect
Dies to Doom Blade
Grave Titan
10 power for 4BB
Doesn't die to Doom Blade
... this is where it gets interesting: Although Grave Titan can die to double Bolt or Condemn (6 life for me? yes please!), your opponent still needs to deal with the tokens you're generating up resolution and declaration of attackers. This forces your opponent to have multiple forms of removal once it hits (whereas Frost Titan can be removed with 1 spell + 2).
Therefore, I'll be testing Grave Titan MD in a gauntlet to see how it's "blackness?" improves or hurts match-ups.
Feel free to disagree, maybe I'm just trying to convince myself?
Oh good sir, I believe you mean Essence Scatter. jk
But yes, it truly hits most of we need to hit early game.
Discuss
Yeah, that's what Matt ran at Cali States, personally I run 3 IoK MD and 3 Duress SB.
3 Frost Titan
3 Trinket Mage
Planeswalker
2 Jace Beleren
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Other Spells
1 Brittle Effigy
1 Elixir of Immortality
2 Everflowing Chalice
1 Consume the Meek
4 Doom Blade
2 Into the Roil
4 Mana Leak
1 Negate
1 Stoic Rebuttal
1 Consuming Vapors
1 Memoricide
4 Preordain
4 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
6 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Swamp
3 Tectonic Edge
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Disfigure
1 Dispel
2 Flashfreeze
1 Jace Beleren
2 Memoricide
2 Negate
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Spell Pierce
Also, there were 3 other UB Control in the Top 10 of WWS Boston:
3 Wurmcoil Engine
Planeswalker
2 Jace Beleren
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Other Spells
3 All Is Dust
4 Doom Blade
3 Everflowing Chalice
3 Into the Roil
4 Mana Leak
4 Preordain
2 Stoic Rebuttal
2 Volition Reins
4 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
7 Island
1 Mystifying Maze
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Swamp
4 Tectonic Edge
1 Consuming Vapors
4 Disfigure
4 Flashfreeze
2 Mind Control
3 Negate
1 Skinrender
2 Grave Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Planeswalker
2 Jace Beleren
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Other Spells
1 Cancel
1 Consume the Meek
4 Doom Blade
4 Duress
4 Everflowing Chalice
2 Jace's Ingenuity
4 Mana Leak
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Negate
3 Preordain
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Drowned Catacomb
5 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Swamp
4 Tectonic Edge
1 Verdant Catacombs
** Sideboard was not correctly reported for this deck, so it's not listed.
2 Frost Titan
Planeswalker
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells
2 Cancel
4 Doom Blade
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Into the Roil
3 Jace's Ingenuity
4 Mana Leak
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Negate
4 Preordain
2 Stoic Rebuttal
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Drowned Catacomb
7 Island
4 Swamp
4 Tectonic Edge
** Sideboard was not correctly reported for this deck, so it's not listed.
Couldn't have said it better.
Not just that, it grabs all the counters your opponents are running in non "little aggro decks."
IoK MD, Duress SB.
Frost Titan still dies to Doom Blade.
FYI: currently at 16 three game rounds played with Jwar Jwar Permission Control. 18 three game rounds played with Frost Titan. Our gauntlet consists of every prevalent build top 8'n SCG 5k and Top 8 States.
Agreed.
Yeah, I felt the same. Tap-out control just didn't seem to have the power of Permission and it many times included dead draws (Gatekeeper when your opponent has 3-5 creatures, maybe some Eldrazi Spawn tokens, etc).
BTW: I was saying Negate > Deprive as in drop the deprive, that's a much better 2 drop counter, and you don't need 12 of them.
It's not. However Sphinx isn't the only threat. Both Jaces are a direct threat, as well as Tar Pits. Also, when things do land, you have Into the Roil, Jace, Doom Blade, etc to deal with them. I prefer the permission build, as the more traditional control suits me.