I don't agree with Hamlet Captain being in the deck. He's felt underwhelming the times I've gotten him in to play, even off an eot CoCo. He's strictly worse on turn 2 than Pacifist or Recruiter, and probably only equal to Militia Captain. But ignoring playing him on turn 2, if you have to cast it, it's a telegraphed anthem that is easy to deal with. He does get better in multiples, by a pretty large margin, so the card is really a 4x, or 0.I've
never been sad to see a Militia Captain, and an eot CoCo getting you HMC and something else to make your fourth dude is a quick flip. He gives a bit of beef to a stalled board, and creates inevitability. Sure, he's weak to sweepers, but all of our creatures are, so that's a weak argument.
I'm planning on tuning my deck to do best against aggro g1, SB will probably have 8-10 cards that are good against control.
I can see the argument against Lambholt Pacifist, but it's a great answer to Sylvan Advocate when paired with Dromoka's Command, also allowed the Pacifist to attack on turn 3. This line also lets you keep from over extending creatures in control matchups, as a 4/4 is pretty threatening on its own. Tireless Tracker also makes getting a 4 power creature relatively easy. I replaced a 1x Eldrazi Displacer in the main deck with Firemantle Mage after skimming this thread, but blinking a Thalia's Lieutenant post side is pretty strong.
I don't think the Expedition Envoys are really something this deck needs (unless you're going allies). The deck has much better creatures at two mana, and you can then use turn one on an Evolving Wilds/tapped land. Higher quality creatures will shine more in the other CoCo matchups, while Envoy won't make enough of a difference against Wx humans; they're just too fast.
What happens on the turn the Pact goes off; we'll say I control it. Untap all the things, move to upkeep. Pact triggers and the trigger is put on the stack (along with any other "At the beginning of upkeep" effects). At this point, the trigger exists independently of the Pact, so even if I draw cards at instant speed, or destroy the Pact, the trigger will still resolve and I'll choose the mode. The last chance a player is going to have to kill the Pact before it triggers is during the End of Turn prior.
This should all be correct; rules gurus, correct me if need be.
Well, UB still gives you RtB, as well as Jace, Anticipate, Take Inventory, Pieces of the Puzzle (Dark Petition is a good grab there), Catalog, Pore over the Pages, and I'm sure some I'm forgetting... blue has superior draw spells, the Grixis builds here are just focused on alternate game plans. If you're willing to give up some control, you can dig way faster.
Not to ignore what's been said (I'm on my phone, I'll respond more in depth later), but what about a UB version that just plays a few red sources for Offering? I mean, if we're looking at getting to the combo as quickly as possible, blue draws more and faster. You can still play the discard to protect, and since the combo will win, drop the burn for a few sweepers. Just a thought, no list in mind.
4x Pact, 4x Offering give you the highest chance to find these cards.
No, a 4/4 split gives you the highest chance of finding them naturally. If you want the highest chance of just finding the cards, you play 4/4, with 4 Petition, 4 Jace, 4 Voice, 4 Magmatic Insight, etc. But obviously, you're looking to do more than just draw them. You have to have Pact stick around for a few turns, and the question becomes making it/you survive those three turns. Pact on its own does a lot to keep us alive, but protecting it is harder in BR than in BRu (because of lack of counters). Discard is a great way to set it up, usually is for combo, but unlike Twin, we don't win the turn we play one of our win cons; in fact, having to sit on it for a few turns, if our opponent draws the kill spell for it (including D-Command themselves after we Donate), we're screwed. BR's fallback is some burn, but backing the combo those three turns is rough. Grixis draws harder with some counter backup, but loses the discard for it, and with no testing to back this, that seems like a stronger strategy than just discard. Mardu, as has been agreed upon, is a midrange deck with a combo kill, relying on a strong fallback plan rather than a strong protection suite.
The argument becomes what's the best backing plan for this combo. While discard is an interesting plan, the new Nephalia kind of laughs at discard. Sure, it'll put them off a turn, but when all they need is one D-Command, discard won't get rid of it through that land. Not to say discard won't work, it just seems weaker to me. I think if you really want to focus on the combo kill, Grixis is a better way to go, using counters as protection instead of discard.
Silly idea for the Grixis build, Part the Waterveil? If Pact comes down turn 4, a Part on turn 6 jumps you to the last beneficial effect, and hopefully leaves your opponent open to get Donate'd. Also an alternate win-con with the Awaken.
B your gameplan goes away from winning through giving them Pact and more towards trying to grind them out and once in a while, you'll pull off a combo kill.
I also agree with this idea, because I like the Mardu build more. I did not play with Twin, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine they had far better card filtering/ways to dig to their combo than we have now. Grixis, because of Jace and other powerful card filtering, probably plays 4/4, as you'll get to the pieces more frequently, and can play closer to a strict combo deck. Mardu, on the other hand, has better ways to get full value out of a Pact. Using Pact as a midrange setup to a long game plan, it can take its time to draw into an Offering, going through multiple Pacts if necessary. I think 4/2 works for the deck, but I think it also needs more Dark Petition. You out-control aggro decks, and you use the combo to put a clock on anything slower.
I will say, there are definitely times I've wished Gaea's Revenge had trampl, though it does essentially have hexproof. No removal I'm seeing played is green outside of Dromoka's Command, and only creature those decks usually play that can match Revenge is Archangel Avacyns . This means they're either trading an Avacyn for Revenge, which is fine, or have seven mana to cast both, in which case I have bigger issues because I'm not breaking worlds. The haste is also very relevant, and I've added Traverse to great effect, making Revenge an even better silver bullet.
Changes
-1 Mountain
-3 Shivan Reef
+1 Sanctum of Ugin
+1 Forest
+1 Island
+1 Wastes
-2 Conduit of Ruin
-1 Nissa's Renewal
+3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
The idea is pretty straight-forward: turn 2 mana dork, turn 3 Kiora or Hedron Archive, turn 4 World Breaker. Considering adding Traverse the Ulvenwald, which got better when Explosive Vegetation became Hedron Archive a few days ago, but I haven't tested it yet. I've played a few tournaments, and the deck has performed well, but I haven't done enough testing against the meta to give a real primer-style rundown. Any critique or suggestions are welcome.
This thread is about a pretty similar idea. I messed around with the list at the start of SOI. As you figured out, then one-of creatures to attempt a toolbox isn't as strong as just playing strictly better cards that are always good. The only "utility" creatures I ended up with were a 1x Ulvenwald Hydra and Endbringer, with an assortment of lands to grab with the Hydra, most relevantly a Rogue's Passage. Vessel is better in this deck than Oath of Nissa, and this is probably the only deck where that is true. Digs deeper, grabs more card types (I was playing Dead Weight, so that was extra relevant), and sets up delirium better. Deathcap Cultivator isn't a bad direction, but you probably want to weight your curve at 4 a little more, to abuse him properly; Mindwrack Demon is perfect for that, as is Thought-Knot Seer. Find spots for Worldbreaker. It's incredibly powerful, and much more worth 7 mana than Bane of Bala Ged.
These were some of the conclusions I came to with the deck.
Long answer: Sword of the Meek's gy trigger requires a 1/1 to enter the battlefield, but because of the static ability of the Architect, your Thopters are 2/2s when they enter the battlefield. Sword doesn't trigger.
Ran this deck tonight, just ripped the 60 from the op. Went pretty well, 3-1-1, lost in top 8. I beat ramp in round 1, but I think it was more just to drawing better than him. Beat a more red version of this deck in round 2, running Tutelage and Tormenting Voice/Magmatic Insight, but I feel like his deck was more consistent, and probably the better deck. I don't recall my round 3/4 opponents, it was a long night, but it was an ID fifth round. Top 8, I'm playing one of the best players in the store, running Esper No-Creature Control. Visions did not fare well, to say the least. Days Undoing was always as good for him as it was for me, Visions gets hit by Anguished Unmaking immediately, and he was just prepared for every scenario. Still, it was a good finish, and the deck did far better than I expected. I don't know if this is the perfect version of it, but there is definitely something here.
Engulf the Shore is absolutely insane, it was a card I always wanted in my hand. Same goes for Days Undoing.
I completely agree with Bolt. Displacer is key in the mirror, so extra ways to deal with it seems great. I'm playing a 4 color list tonight, I'll post the list and match report later, but this isn't a real meta.
Sideboard choices are basically irrelevant, I don't know the meta around here, so I just pack stuff I may be able to use. The Deltas will be Strands once I have them.
So, with a little bit of good stuff in every color (besides black), I wanted to try a four-color version. Like I said, wanted to be able to deal with Displacers in the mirror (didn't come up), so I ran 7 removal main, with the extra Bolt in the side. I was able to win one game by going to the face with a Bolt, and it cleared blockers. The spell isn't bad for the deck, if you're in red.
Round 1 v URW Geist, 2-0: Game two he was able to run me down to 1 with Geist and Resto, but Eldrazi just overpowers. Round 2 v RW Prowess, 2-1: He was faster than me in game 2, but again, Eldrazi just straight overpowers this deck. With the extra removal slots, none of his creatures stuck around long enough to matter. Round 3 v Elves, 2-1: I kept a particularly questionable hand in game two, giving him more than enough time to combo out. The other two games were me playing threats he couldn't deal with and killing the key components on his board. Round 4 v UW Control, 2-0: He stuck a Worship game 2 and I couldn't get to a World Breaker in time. In games 1 and 3, he put a Spreading Seas on my Ancient Tomb early, but it never hurt so much I couldn't get around it. Game 1 goes my way because of big threats, game 3 because I play very aggressively. He tried to drop Worship turn 4 against me (the turn before I'd win), but I had a Stubborn Denial I was able to cast of my Eye of Ugin that he hit with Spreading Seas (womp.......... womp).
All in all, not too much to report. None of these decks seem well-placed enough to deal with Eldrazi, so my report here is pretty sparing. I only ran into color issues once, sitting on a Bolt in hand and no red mana, but it wasn't relevant. I could still have cast Obligators, just no base red source at the time, and it didn't end up mattering. Some consistency is lost by spreading the mana base out like that, but the creature core is still there to have insane early games. Maybe not the right version for the format, might be more relevant once Eye or Temple get banned. I'll run the UW variant tomorrow night, see if it feels better or worse. -Jack
I have a couple favorite cards. I've collect Birds of Paradise, because that was the card I lost the first time I got ripped off in a trade. I've got two in Japanese, and a French 4ED Bird that has a black border despite being 4ED. My other favorite card is Vizzerdrix. I once decided to start collecting a really bad card, and I picked Vizzerdix, and now I have over 250 of them. -Jack
That is simultaneously the funniest and most horrible thing I have heard. Ever. Thank you for a few moments of humor. I hope this blog didn't apply to you, because then I'll look like a total ass. -Jack
-Jack
never been sad to see a Militia Captain, and an eot CoCo getting you HMC and something else to make your fourth dude is a quick flip. He gives a bit of beef to a stalled board, and creates inevitability. Sure, he's weak to sweepers, but all of our creatures are, so that's a weak argument.
I'm planning on tuning my deck to do best against aggro g1, SB will probably have 8-10 cards that are good against control.
4 Battlefield Forge
3 Canopy Vista
4 Cinder Glade
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Plains
1 Hanweir Battlement
4 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Hanweir Militia Captain
3 Lambholt Pacifist
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
1 Firemantle Mage
4 Hanweird Garrison
4 Tireless Tracker
2 Heron's Grace Champion
2 Declaration in Stone
4 Dromoka's Command
4 Collected Company
Maybeboard (15)
2 Declaration in Stone
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Radiant Flames
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Tragic Arrogance
1 Wastes
I can see the argument against Lambholt Pacifist, but it's a great answer to Sylvan Advocate when paired with Dromoka's Command, also allowed the Pacifist to attack on turn 3. This line also lets you keep from over extending creatures in control matchups, as a 4/4 is pretty threatening on its own. Tireless Tracker also makes getting a 4 power creature relatively easy. I replaced a 1x Eldrazi Displacer in the main deck with Firemantle Mage after skimming this thread, but blinking a Thalia's Lieutenant post side is pretty strong.
I don't think the Expedition Envoys are really something this deck needs (unless you're going allies). The deck has much better creatures at two mana, and you can then use turn one on an Evolving Wilds/tapped land. Higher quality creatures will shine more in the other CoCo matchups, while Envoy won't make enough of a difference against Wx humans; they're just too fast.
Any critique is appreciated.
This should all be correct; rules gurus, correct me if need be.
No, a 4/4 split gives you the highest chance of finding them naturally. If you want the highest chance of just finding the cards, you play 4/4, with 4 Petition, 4 Jace, 4 Voice, 4 Magmatic Insight, etc. But obviously, you're looking to do more than just draw them. You have to have Pact stick around for a few turns, and the question becomes making it/you survive those three turns. Pact on its own does a lot to keep us alive, but protecting it is harder in BR than in BRu (because of lack of counters). Discard is a great way to set it up, usually is for combo, but unlike Twin, we don't win the turn we play one of our win cons; in fact, having to sit on it for a few turns, if our opponent draws the kill spell for it (including D-Command themselves after we Donate), we're screwed. BR's fallback is some burn, but backing the combo those three turns is rough. Grixis draws harder with some counter backup, but loses the discard for it, and with no testing to back this, that seems like a stronger strategy than just discard. Mardu, as has been agreed upon, is a midrange deck with a combo kill, relying on a strong fallback plan rather than a strong protection suite.
The argument becomes what's the best backing plan for this combo. While discard is an interesting plan, the new Nephalia kind of laughs at discard. Sure, it'll put them off a turn, but when all they need is one D-Command, discard won't get rid of it through that land. Not to say discard won't work, it just seems weaker to me. I think if you really want to focus on the combo kill, Grixis is a better way to go, using counters as protection instead of discard.
Silly idea for the Grixis build, Part the Waterveil? If Pact comes down turn 4, a Part on turn 6 jumps you to the last beneficial effect, and hopefully leaves your opponent open to get Donate'd. Also an alternate win-con with the Awaken.
I also agree with this idea, because I like the Mardu build more. I did not play with Twin, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine they had far better card filtering/ways to dig to their combo than we have now. Grixis, because of Jace and other powerful card filtering, probably plays 4/4, as you'll get to the pieces more frequently, and can play closer to a strict combo deck. Mardu, on the other hand, has better ways to get full value out of a Pact. Using Pact as a midrange setup to a long game plan, it can take its time to draw into an Offering, going through multiple Pacts if necessary. I think 4/2 works for the deck, but I think it also needs more Dark Petition. You out-control aggro decks, and you use the combo to put a clock on anything slower.
Changes
-1 Mountain
-3 Shivan Reef
+1 Sanctum of Ugin
+1 Forest
+1 Island
+1 Wastes
-2 Conduit of Ruin
-1 Nissa's Renewal
+3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Sideboard
-4 Radiant Flames
-4 Thought-Knot Seer
+4 Sylvan Advocate
+4 Icefall Regent
4x Evolving Wilds
6x Forets
2x Island
2x Lumbering Falls
1x Mountain
2x Sanctum of Ugin
3x Shivan Reef
4x Yavimaya Coast
Creature (22)
2x Conduit of Ruin
4x Deathcap Cultivator
2x Den Protector
1x Endbringer
1x Gaea's Revenge
3x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip
4x Leaf Gilder
1x Sphinx of the Final Word
4x World Breaker
4x Oath of Nissa
Planeswalker (5)
1x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
4x Kiora, Master of the Depths
Sorcery (1)
1x Nissa's Renewal
Artifact (4)
4x Hedron Archive
3x Clash of Wills
1x Gaea's Revenge
3x Negate
4x Radiant Flames
4x Thought-Knot Seer
The idea is pretty straight-forward: turn 2 mana dork, turn 3 Kiora or Hedron Archive, turn 4 World Breaker. Considering adding Traverse the Ulvenwald, which got better when Explosive Vegetation became Hedron Archive a few days ago, but I haven't tested it yet. I've played a few tournaments, and the deck has performed well, but I haven't done enough testing against the meta to give a real primer-style rundown. Any critique or suggestions are welcome.
This thread is about a pretty similar idea. I messed around with the list at the start of SOI. As you figured out, then one-of creatures to attempt a toolbox isn't as strong as just playing strictly better cards that are always good. The only "utility" creatures I ended up with were a 1x Ulvenwald Hydra and Endbringer, with an assortment of lands to grab with the Hydra, most relevantly a Rogue's Passage. Vessel is better in this deck than Oath of Nissa, and this is probably the only deck where that is true. Digs deeper, grabs more card types (I was playing Dead Weight, so that was extra relevant), and sets up delirium better. Deathcap Cultivator isn't a bad direction, but you probably want to weight your curve at 4 a little more, to abuse him properly; Mindwrack Demon is perfect for that, as is Thought-Knot Seer. Find spots for Worldbreaker. It's incredibly powerful, and much more worth 7 mana than Bane of Bala Ged.
These were some of the conclusions I came to with the deck.
Long answer: Sword of the Meek's gy trigger requires a 1/1 to enter the battlefield, but because of the static ability of the Architect, your Thopters are 2/2s when they enter the battlefield. Sword doesn't trigger.
Engulf the Shore is absolutely insane, it was a card I always wanted in my hand. Same goes for Days Undoing.
.::edit::.
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Corrupted Crossroads
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Eye of Ugin
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
2 Shivan Reef
1 Yavimaya Coast
2 Adarkar Wastes
2 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
3 Eldrazi Skyspawner
3 Eldrazi Obligator
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
2 Drowner of HOpe
1 Enderbringer
1 World Breaker
Other (7)
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Relic of Prgenitus
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Lightning Bolt
3 Gut Shot
2 Crumble to Dust
1 World Breaker
Sideboard choices are basically irrelevant, I don't know the meta around here, so I just pack stuff I may be able to use. The Deltas will be Strands once I have them.
So, with a little bit of good stuff in every color (besides black), I wanted to try a four-color version. Like I said, wanted to be able to deal with Displacers in the mirror (didn't come up), so I ran 7 removal main, with the extra Bolt in the side. I was able to win one game by going to the face with a Bolt, and it cleared blockers. The spell isn't bad for the deck, if you're in red.
Round 1 v URW Geist, 2-0: Game two he was able to run me down to 1 with Geist and Resto, but Eldrazi just overpowers.
Round 2 v RW Prowess, 2-1: He was faster than me in game 2, but again, Eldrazi just straight overpowers this deck. With the extra removal slots, none of his creatures stuck around long enough to matter.
Round 3 v Elves, 2-1: I kept a particularly questionable hand in game two, giving him more than enough time to combo out. The other two games were me playing threats he couldn't deal with and killing the key components on his board.
Round 4 v UW Control, 2-0: He stuck a Worship game 2 and I couldn't get to a World Breaker in time. In games 1 and 3, he put a Spreading Seas on my Ancient Tomb early, but it never hurt so much I couldn't get around it. Game 1 goes my way because of big threats, game 3 because I play very aggressively. He tried to drop Worship turn 4 against me (the turn before I'd win), but I had a Stubborn Denial I was able to cast of my Eye of Ugin that he hit with Spreading Seas (womp.......... womp).
All in all, not too much to report. None of these decks seem well-placed enough to deal with Eldrazi, so my report here is pretty sparing. I only ran into color issues once, sitting on a Bolt in hand and no red mana, but it wasn't relevant. I could still have cast Obligators, just no base red source at the time, and it didn't end up mattering. Some consistency is lost by spreading the mana base out like that, but the creature core is still there to have insane early games. Maybe not the right version for the format, might be more relevant once Eye or Temple get banned. I'll run the UW variant tomorrow night, see if it feels better or worse. -Jack