MTG Salvation

To those who proposed it above, there's a reason drawing from the bottom of your library isn't done. Not because it isn't an interesting, if narrow, mechanic, but because there is too much potential and incentive to cheat. Looking at your bottom card is incredible easy.

As far as the card itself, milling the bottom of your library is an entirely negligible drawback. It's actually near pointless because it doesn't even interact with removing cards that are placed on top of your library. Drawing a card on an artifact is traditionally 4 plus 4. (See Jayemdae Tome.) With that in mind, I think you either have to fool around with mana and activation costs to make it more fair (for example, I think a six or seven cost artifact that says "T: Draw a card." is fine) or you have to add a real drawback onto the card.

It's worth pointing out that there is a reason cards like these haven't been printed. They are A. hosers and B. not fun to play against. Too much cheap and easily accessible land destruction leads to unfun games and strategies. On lands, an ability like this is even more powerful. Tectonic Edge is acceptable to a fault because there needed to be a strong counter to manlands, and even then it was still incredibly limited in scope. Additionally, Edge takes off some of the problem of LD being unfun by only being activated past a certain point. Finally, there's no real reason for five of these to exist as they are extraordinarily narrow in execution and lead to a breadth of LD overload problems.

I think if you want to make these printable and interesting, you should either go with something Ark of Blight style, or make a card like this:

Rotting Landscape
Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
5, T, Sacrifice Rotting Landscape: Destroy target land.

That's my take.

The title isn't innovative, but that's because I felt it was a nod to TDK in a style that ties it into the last movie. Maybe it goes back to revisit something, maybe it's just there to evoke the success of TDK, maybe it's because they want to tap into the feeling that Batman has been in hiding for a while and now he's returning. While not the greatest name, I think it works depending on content.

As far as villains go, with my very limited Batman knowledge, I think Bane is a pretty logical place to go. He's the man who "broke the Bat," right? That makes a pretty good arc. We've seen batman ascend and overcome odds. We've seen him deal with difficult moral decisions and allow his persona to take the fall. However, we haven't really seen Batman be beaten down and utterly fail. Bane would do all that.

While I had never heard of Hush, I just Wiki'd him and he seems like an awesome character. I don't know if he fits perfectly as-is in the storyline, but he would definitely be great to see.

I don't think name recognition is crucial to a box office success, but I think it definitely helps make a great movie even more successful. With Batman Begins, Ra's Al Ghul was not really advertised as a main villain because he had no sway over people who weren't going to see the movie in the first place. Simply a "new Batman movie" was good enough.

In TDK, however, the Joker brought a lot of people into theaters. They had already seen Batman. But the Joker? That's someone who is instantly recognizable and associated with Batman. People know of his wacky persona and wanted to see what he would do. The movie still would have been a hit with another villain, but the Joker helped it become even more successful.

In TDKR, I think introducing a harder to market and associate with villain is totally possible and overall fine, but less likely. Basically, Nolan would have to have an excellent plotline already in his head to use someone like Beaumont.

Additionally, it's worth noting Beaumont is probably hard to market. A catchy one-word evocative phrase of "Bane" matched with a character image of a brawy guy throwing Batman around conveys the message pretty clearly in a 30 second trailer. The idea that Bruce has a childhood nemesis (though, as stated, that might not work in the movie's storyline) and that he's back to fight Bruce can be conveyed in a 30 second trailer. The Beaumont angle is a lot harder to work. Can it be done? Yes. But it's not going to drive sales like I think Bane would. Fortunately, storytelling, not sales, takes a front seat for Nolan. However, at the end of the day, if you have two equally good ideas and one has a much more recognizable character, that one is going to win out.

I've been getting a lot of PM's about this lately, so I figured there had to be some reason for the increased traffic. Hey-o! Indeed. This thread was bumped.

In any case, for those who haven't PM'd me on this, YES! I am going to be running this again this year. It's always my favorite event of the holiday season, and when I retired I said I'd be back to run this again. Expect a new thread in mid-November!

Until then, feel free to start thinking about and working on your submissions. After all, Santa is already working on his toys - why not follow his example?

Oh man. Good times. By the time I came into the picture some of the greats, namely Pete and Pete, were done, but most of the other shows named were ones I grew up on. Seconded on Legends of the Hidden Temple and Double Dare - me and my family would watch those together!

But most importantly, the mention of Nick Arcade earlier in the thread finally answered what the name of that show was. I remembered watching it when I was really young, but forgot what the name was and never found it. Now, I know! Of course, to make it all better, I searched it on Youtube and found this video, which I laughed at the whole time more than anything I've laughed at in weeks. (There is a similar Legends of the Hidden Temple one, btu Ididn't find i tas good - though still funny.) Still, it was a good time to be a kid.

I don't know what has to constitute "epic" for you (something like Homer or Lord of the Rings?), but if you want an insanely good story and plot that will blow your mind, go watch Primer. It's the only movie I've ever watched once, then immediately went back to the beginning and watched again. You can even stream it on Netflix if you have that. It's an excellent, excellent movie.

Quote from MajoraX

I refuse to believe it, Gavin. The community has lost its very finest.
Please, take care of yourself. Don't forget to write.

Thanks MajoraX. it's always a pleasure talking to you, and I think your posts (and letters!) have brought more smiles to my face than anyone else's combined.

I'll definitely still be around to run the holiday card exchange in December. That's one of my favorite things about the holiday season, and I never want to give that up.

On another note, I smile knowing the DCC is still running. Good to see that part of what I started carries on.

Quote from The Argus

I'm assuming you'll still be a member of the community though. Mods and Admin come and go but giving up posting is like giving up crack.
There are many former mods who are just plain ol' community members now. I think you'll enjoy being just a member again.
I could imagine doing your job was much like going to Disney Land every day...but only to fix the coasters and never ride them.

Ride the coasters man.

I'll still be around, yeah. That alluring MTGSalvation forum link is forever attached to the side of my internet browser. But, just as it has been recently, I'll be reading a lot more than I'll actually be posting. My theory has always been that if I have something important and fresh to say, I'll say it. If not, I'll read the thread and go to the next one.

Excellent roller coaster metaphor, by the way.

Quote from Sene

I'm sorry (though not surprised) that you're officially leaving now, you've always been synonymous with this site for me. You'll be missed for your strategic input, your leadership and the kindness and respect you showed to even the most insignificant of members

Good luck in university, and good luck on the Pro Tour! We'll hopefully see you around some day.

Yes, you too! Are you going to San Juan or any of the US Grand Prix?

And, in response to you and a few others, I'm actually graduating from university - not going to it. It's crazy how fast everything seems to go in this world. That's one of the many reasons why I'm grateful I've spent this blip of time with all of you.

Quote from qtiplord

Excellent line!!!
Just curious... from a movie? song? TV show? your own?

One of my own.

Quote from Cyan

You know, Gavin, when you first were an Admin, I didn't think that you were right for the part.

I was wrong.

You defined what it means to be an Admin, and the community is lesser in losing you. Your example is one that every Staff member should aspire to live up to.

Thank you, Nick. It has been a pleasure starting alongside you and moving forward. We've had our differences and had our connections, but I am glad that I feel as though I can always call you a friend. You have made one of the largest long-term impacts on my life out of anyone I have ever met online.

Thank you, everybody.

I have sat down to write this post seven times.

Sometimes it ends up long, a winded explanation filled with over the top bouquets of gratitude and Chinese proverbs. Sometimes it ends up a lowly one sentence, telling you to not ponder further. But, inevitably and inexplicably, the posting window eventually ends up closed.

Today, none of those things will be the case. I am going to say what I feel most important and then let it be.

When I first announced to the administration six months ago that I was resigning, I had expected it to occur shortly thereafter. But, as these things tend to do, it lingered. First, I wanted to finish the Holiday Card Exchange. Then I wanted to work on some administrative issues. Then I wanted to wait for the new year to start. I flitted and flickered, fumbling carefully with my retirement. It was something I wanted to do cautiously, as I knew that the words I wrote would forever linger on MTGSalvation's Wikipedia page just as Sneakyhomunculus's have on his. I knew I needed to write my internet tombstone, I just hadn't. Like the ring to Smeagol, each opportunity slipped past; each daunting, white box eventually slammed shut.

The simple matter of it all is that I no longer belong on the staff here.

When I first started posting so many years ago, all I could dream of was to be on the staff. Such a high position would be an honor. Through a mixture of luck and good positioning - mostly having Goblinboy on my side - I managed to land the staff position.

I was fifteen when I started moderating. Now, I'm about to graduate college.

A lot has changed. Back then, I couldn't imagine why anybody would ever give up their position on the staff. Why wouldn't you keep it? But now I know. It's something you feel. Something in the best interests of the site. Something that calls you forward, like a voice in the wilderness or the notes of a harp.

I've been at the height of it all. I've been the best of the best. And now, it's time to move on. I have 15481 messages in my inbox. Over 4000 of them are unread. It's time to ascend beyond this and go forward on my next journey. (Which is apparently the University of Washington, seeing how Goblinboy is also here.)

MTGSalvation has been one of the most important things to ever happen to me. I don't even mean how integral it was to sparking my Magic career - though that was certainly important, too. But my position here has led to me making contacts with some of the best players - some of the best friends - I have ever had. Some of them are writers. They wrote about me, and I wrote some articles for MTGSalvation, and Starcitygames eventually picked me up. Two quarters ago, I was hired by the college newspaper as a columnist, with my experience in writing here and on Starcity as a driving reason why.

Without MTGSalvation, I would have none of that. No credentials, no writing experience, no contacts, and probably improper grammar from not writing thousands of words on this forum every single day for years. When I started, I was just a fifteen year old kid. Now I'm getting ready to move toward the rest of my life. Nothing has prepared me for the world and for interacting with people like MTGSalvation has.

Enough of that. As we part, I want to leave you with some gifts of knowledge. There are slices of wisdom here for moderator and member alike. Rather than make a post in the staff forum, I wanted everyone to be able to view what I believe in.

First, to the staff. We are here as enforcers of conversation. We are not assassins or beekeepers, army officials or policemen. Our purpose is to allow the people on MTGSalvation to converse about Magic as best they can. Rules are there to aid this notion, not to give us power we can wildly swing like a baseball bat. We happen to be the people to enforce the rules, but we are also enforceable. Don't just do things because the rules tell you to. When you take an action, think about why you are doing it. If it doesn't make sense, then we shouldn't be doing it. Rules should not be rules for the sake of having them. Each rule should serve a sensible purpose.

Members, it's up to you to challenge this. Just as we have the power to deal with you, you have the power to deal with us. To every person who has challenged a moderator for good reason, every person who has questioned the order of the rules, this is for you. You may drive us crazy, but without you we couldn't question ourselves and our actions. You try and keep the rules fresh and streamlined. And for that, we are all thankful.

Second, this time to the members. Many of you would like to be staff here thinking it would look cool. There's a lot more to it than that. It's a lot of work. We're really just glorified garbagemen, when you think about it.

But, if you want to traverse this trash-laden road, heed this advice. If you want to be a staff member, just be active, be helpful, and follow the rules. Get to know the staff when you can. Have fun. You don't have to be perfect, you just have to be someone we see as a good poster that isn't an annoyance. If you think you can do a good job, show us. We would rather see what you can do as a member and consider how much more you could do as a moderator than hear about everything you would do if you got the position.

You have to get a little lucky on top of all that, so you can't be picky. If a you get offered an opening, take it. It doesn't matter if it's in Magic Software. You have to get a little lucky to be offered a job. But, once you're in, you are able to craft your own fate.

Third, to every aspiring professional Magic player out there. You're on the right track. This is where I started, and there's no reason why you can't start here too. Don't be afraid to listen to others. At the same time, Don't be afraid to see for yourself. You can learn a lot from this website, it's just a matter of knowing what to believe. Seek out the best players you know, learn from them, apply what they teach you, and then repeat this form of knowledge assimilation.

When I first started on here, I had no idea what I was doing. But other people did. And gradually, because of them, so did I. Because of long-lost strategy overlords like Cyan and Hkkid, I began the upward climb on the unending Everest of Magic knowledge. If you take Magic seriously, and put effort into it, the game will reward you.

Finally, something for every person who reads this, young or old, coming in or taking off, student or teacher. Know what you want. Know when to put what is most important in your life at the highest peg. And, most of all, know when to let go.

It's easy to begin something. It's very hard to end it.

We all thing everything we start will last forever, but very few things do. As much as we think the granite slabs we lay as foundation for our lives are uncrackable, enough sleet and scuffling of time will wear down all but the most golden pillars of our lives. It's better we realize we need to build new foundations then cling to old ones. That's what I'm doing with my life in this case. Everyone has crumbling concrete pieces of their own that they could do to stand away from. This is one of mine.

And so, it ends.

I will still be around from time to time. I will still view the same old threads, and see all of your posts. I will still make jokes and contribute to discussion. But my time as staff here has come to a close. I thank all of you for making my run possible, and for continuing MTGSalvation's legacy in the future. Best wishes.

Gavin Verhey

Well, after making top 64 in the GP last week with this deck (losing my last round to miss top 32), yesterday I won a 177 person PTQ with this deck and didn't drop a single match, with only four games on the day. So yes, I would call this deck very competitive and not just a fluke.

Treasure Hunt is not happening in a 20 land deck. Careful Consideration over Compulsive Research is something to consider. For one less mana I think Research gets the nod right now, but Careful is something to try.

Leyline is way better than Extirpate. You want the card for Dredge and Living End. Both decks can easily beat an Extirpate. A Leyline, on the other hand, is almost unbeatable if you protect it with Negate.

I had no issues with time either in testing or at the PTQ. Most of the decisions with this deck don't take much time. The only thing is fatesealing. Once you play it for a little while and get used to it, I'm confident you guys can easily finish a match in 50 minutes.

Persecute really interests me, but it feels like people have divergent enough colors and empty their hand so fast that it's probably not that effective. It's a lot different than Rav standard. I'd rather maindeck Thoughtseize, I think.

Playing this deck without Jace would be akin to, say, playing TEPS without Mind's Desire, or Heartbeat without Early Harvest. It can't be done. If you don't have Jace, you have to play something else. Sorry. On the bright side, the manabase for this deck is cheap enough maybe you can put all of the money you saved on it into buying Jaces. You're going to need them eventually anyway.

Thoughtseize was found to be most effective out of the sideboard, though we tried it maindeck over Repeal for a very long time. There might be some metagames where maindeck Thoughtseize is correct. I don't think Blightning is doing anything for you, since it is basically Mind Rot in a deck which doesn't really want a Mind Rot.

I don't think many people are playing Sadistic Sacrament. I think I saw one Smallpox list with it, but I wouldn't be overly worried.

As I mentioned in the article, you can cut the Leylines for two (or more) red Akromas, the fourth Night of Souls' Betrayal, and the fourth Deathmark. Red Akroma is pretty much the best creature win condition you can ask for, and it makes your matchup against decks like Teachings absurd.

I drew Liliana in my opener at least once per match. Though odd, it allowed me to think about her place in the deck. She's really good when you're ahead or at parity. However, that's not when you need help. You need help when you're behind, and she's bad when you're behind. I'm fairly certain another Compulsive Research is what you want there. You just want to dig through cards to find what you're looking for and make sure you don't flood out, and Compulsive Research is much better in the first few turns of the game than Liliana.

Quote from thepotplant

With precisely 3 ways to actually physically win the game, all of them being planeswalker ultimates (well, I guess you could see if your opponent draws more cards than you and deck them first without using Jace the Mindsculptors ultimate, as a 4th way to win), this seems really easy to disrupt, if people want to.

For a start, only Nicol Bolas's 1st ability can permanently destroy a Pithing Needle (Repeal can 1 turn of using a planeswalkers ability), which really should be in a number of people's sideboards (what with thopters running all over the place..)

As far as less played cards, Runed Halo naming Jace buys just about any deck eons to do what they want against you too. Cranial Extraction and friends can get rid of the very few win conditions too.
So basically, it's a deck like All-In Red. Very powerful, but also easily disrupted if people want to take the time to make sure they don't lose to it.

I hope for those intending to play it that it remains relatively ignored and people don't know about it.

Pithing Needle is seeing a little sideboard play right now, though most decks opt for Damping Matrix. Thought Hemorrhage is in sideboards of Living End, but nothing else. I'm not particularly worried about either card.

I'm not worried about playing around cards that don't exist. If I played against a single Runed Halo in a hundred random PTQ matchups I would be surprised.

Also, all the cards you mentioned are sideboard cards. After sideboarding, you have Repeal plus Negate or Thoughtseize against cards like Pithing Needle. You have Thoughtseize and Negate against cards like Thought Hemorrhage. You can even have access to Red Akroma after sideboarding if you're really worried about something like that.

Any deck becomes weaker if people start sideboarding eight cards for you. This deck is no exception. But one of it's strengths is that nobody has very sideboard cards that significantly hamper your strategy right now. When this deck starts top eighting PTQ's that might change, but I'd say you have at least two or three weeks before any kind of sideboard shift occurs.

Quote from HeroTheDragon

Say, weren't you the dude who made Up Down Dralnu? I played that, too.

Heh, yeah. That's me!

I don't think the AIR matchup is nearly as bad as you guys are making it out to be. I'll admit, I haven't played a single game against it. (And for good reason, too - I wouldn't expect to play against it in a PTQ so I'm not really worried about that matchup.) It's probably not a great matchup. But it's far from unwinnable. Between 8 sources of cheap artifact mana, 4 Jace, 4 wrath, 3 Night of Souls' Betrayal, and immunity to Blood Moon, you have all of your bases covered.

Burn is a bad matchup. You can sideboard Chalice over Leyline if you expect more Hypergenesis and Burn than Dredge. You can also board in specific cards like Sun Droplet or Clearwater Goblet if it's really prevalent in your metagame. Fortunately, the prevalence of Burn is dying down in favor of R/W which is a fine matchup.

As far as Rock goes, your Doran matchup is great. If you mean some kind of B/G or B/G/W midrange slow grind 'em out deck, it depends on their manabase and ability to deal with a planeswalker. And considering Rock isn't exactly tearing up the PTQ scene, I wouldn't expect to play against it.

Faeries is unfavorable, but winnable if you have a hand which can cast an early Blood Moon or Night of Souls' Betrayal.

Glad you guys all like the deck. Let me know how your playtesting and tournaments go!

There's a pretty exciting deck for all of you guys to work with that I played at my PTQ this past weekend and wrote an article about today. I know some of the card choices might look a little odd, so all I ask is that you please read the article before you start making snap judgments and calling a particular card terrible.

I won't repeat what I said in my article here, just in the interest of not repeating myself. You should be able to find more than enough there than a single post of mine would contain, including card reasoning and sideboarding guides.

The decklist:



Fire away!