So a Zombie God shoots the hero out of a stormy sky while he's riding a freaking pegasus, only for the hero's fall is broken by an ancient, evil demon lord who swoops in to deliver him to his tragic final showdown with a multiverse-conquering dragon-god.
Magic lore has officially peaked. Nothing will ever top this. This is so amazing and over-the top, it's borderline pornographic.
This is now the official Book Spoiler discussion thread, yes?
So we know according to the book that:
Gideon dies.
Domri dies.
Dack dies. (Apparently Dack even gets some time to shine before he goes.)
Ugin sacrifices himself, but does not actually die. (This will still probably wreak havoc on Tarkir, calling it now. Bye bye, dragons.)
However, since the book can't possibly cover all 36 carded Planeswalkers, those are the only "confirmed" losses we have at this point. We do know that there will be online fiction for War of the Spark as well, written by the same author as the novel. Mark Rosewater said that story fans will want to read both the novel and the online fiction to get the full story.
So whether more named characters will die in the online stories remains to be seen.
If you are going to call it a War, have there be stakes - have their be casualties. Don't sell it as something that has high stakes if it doesn't have actual stakes.
That is why people are upset. They bought into an idea and were sold something else.
I said it in another theread, if they made a generic walker card with lots of unknown walkers and during the set made those faced walkers dying in cards, that would have been nice.
Apparently that's exactly what we see on The Elder Spell.
Regarding deaths, the information we have so far is just what's in the novel. Apparently there is supposed to be online fiction for War as well (seriously, Wizards, why the delay?)
It could very well be that we'll see more character deaths in the online fiction. The novel can only show so much.
Changing out of nowhere conveniently to a plane where there is a heaven the last minute you know you are going to die seems to me the most horrible way to force a happy ending to me.
Urza, Venser, Gerrard....they are in no heaven. They have no consciousness, they are truly lost forever into an eternal nothingness.
Not so. Dominaria has an afterlife, and we've glimpsed it.
We saw Jeska reuniting with Kamahl in the afterlife at the end of Future Sight, after she sacrificed herself to heal the Multiverse and begin The Mending.
In Gerrard's last moments, as he incinerates in the final blast that kills himself, Urza, and Yawgmoth, Hanna's spirit receives and welcomes him, taking his hand and leading him away.
So we have at least two prior examples of heroes who sacrifice themselves reuniting with loved ones.
there is also a good bit of nostalgia and people looking back at mtg storylines of the past with rose-tinted glasses. much as it is when long time players are evaluating old formats. its something you see it all the time with franchises of games or books spanning a long enough time, and mtg has been around longer than pretty much all of them.
This. Just like with the Gatewatch, many people back in the day were sick of and felt overexposed to the Weatherlight Crew. Fans might look at him differently now, but Gerrard Capashen was something like the Gideon/Jace of his era.
The thing about killing Bolas is that it just wouldn't be enough retribution. He has 25,000 years of atrocities to answer for, dozens of enslaved/destroyed worlds, and deaths on his hands numbering at least into the billions. Cutting him down with a sword and just ending him in a moment of righteous justice would feel good for a minute, but then ring hollow.
Bolas has to feel his defeat. He has to know he is beaten, pathetic, and impotent forevermore. His infinite atrocities merit an infinite punishment. Now his victims can begin to have justice.
I’ve been riding a roller coaster of emotions today.
I had been so excited for War of the Spark. So excited to see this conclusion. I had been hugrilly following the card previews and unfolding story every day, and found myself truly invested in seeing how this ended, and eager to see the final story twists and fates of the key players. Never in years had I been so looking forward to a new Magic set. I got caught up in the rush, and dared to believe that this story would deliver a cool and worthwhile conclusion that would leave me feeling satisfied. It would be different than BFZ. It would surely be more satisfying than Ixalan, than Dominaria. I was truly excited to read this book and see the big payoff.
But then I started seeing bits of information. The book had leaked, and though I hadn’t seen the initial leaks, most comments from those who had seen them weren’t good. It seemed many comments were dripping with negativity and cynicism, and though I tried to avoid online spoilers, I bumped into just enough spoilers - and enough sneering about bad writing and the predictability of it all - that I found myself increasingly disheartened, disappointed, and disenchanted. “Depressed” sounds like hyperbole, but that’s close to how I felt earlier today. I finally decided that I’d been duped by my own foolish, naive expectations and that it probably wasn’t worth my continued emotional investment to hold out anymore.
So I bit the bullet and looked up the novel spoilers.
Why are people already moaning about this - "Oh, that was too easy," "Oh, the heroes should have paid a price," "Oh, that was such a painless victory"? You know all this already? I didn't realize we had so many sibyls and clairvoyants on these forums! Truly gifted, this community!
Yeah i mean look at BFZ! Everyone was like "the gatewatch can't just defeat two eldrazi titans so easily" and actually they... oh, wait
Odd you should mention that -- it's because of the overwrought hand-wringing over the art books that I learned to wait and see the story for myself.
The vanquishing of the Eldrazi Titans on Zendikar was no masterpiece of writing by any means. Still, it made at least a modicum of sense in the online fiction, whereas in the art book it made none whatsoever. Was it good, in the fiction? No. Was it much better than the art book made it sound? Well, it's not really saying much, but yeah, it absolutely was. I wan't thrilled, but I could at least accept it.
As for Eldritch Moon: I remember all the eye-rolling when the Innistrad art book revealed that Emrakul got sealed in the moon. I remember because I was rolling eyes along with everyone else. But the delivery in the fiction? Far better than what I'd hoped for, and I know I'm far from the only one who ended up eating my words and praising that ending.
If the art books taught me anything, it was to calm down and wait.
Again, how many named heroes died in Return of the King? Exactly Theoden, and that wasn’t even in the last battle. Literally everyone else comes out okay at the end. Frodo loses a finger.
You forgot Boromir, you monster
.
No, I didn't. Boromir died very early in the saga. I was referring specifically to the climax of the narrative, the Return of the King. The equivalent of where we are now in the Gatewatch's story.
[quote from="Manite »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/808565-planar-celebration?comment=44"]
It's since the bible that "good always triumph over evil".
I guess you haven't read the bible really well since "happy ending" isn't a way to actually describe it.
Whatever you might think of the Book of Revelation, it was written as a message of hope and absolutely intended to have a happy ending (though it was not written to be an ending to the entire Bible; it only ended up becoming one centuries after the fact). God triumphs over Satan, Good defeats Evil, the New Jerusalem is born, the martyrs are vindicated, and God's suffering people are delivered to reign in glory forever. God "wipes away every tear from their eye," and death is no more.
Jewish and Islamic eschatology unfolds similarly, with the triumph of Good and the reign of divine justice.
Same for the Iliad, Chanson the Roland, or Siegfried' saga.
Happy ending isn't something classic at all.
The Iliad, absolutely. What about the Odyssey? Odysseus makes it home to Ithaca, slaughters all his wife's suitors, and finishes the tale back in her arms. It's sweet, really. Ovid's Metamorphoses, meanwhile, ends with the glorious, divine ascension of the new Imperial line, a celebration and prophecy of the glory of Rome.
So the claim that a "Happy ending isn't something classic at all" is simply untrue. "The Classics" are not monolithic like that; they span cultures, eras and genres.
But in the end, I suspect we're getting sidetracked here. Why is any of this relevant to War of the Spark?
Spaniard I know you want to help with your leaks, but you're killing the buzz.
Still though, this a thousand times.
Edit: Actually, let me be more vehement: After all the effort and preparation the creative team went through to prep this story and deliver it to us, rolling out a specially-planned spoiler season and going the extra mile to try and make War of the Spark a unique experience, leaks like this--especially story spotlights--are particularly uncool.
Ditto for whoever the hell it was who leaked Nicol Bolas. We're not grateful, you're not helping, and all you're really doing is cheapening the experience.
Get over yourself. This isn't about you.
I'm trying to understand your vehement anger, but I just don't get it. Being 100% serious. Help me understand why you didn't simply close the thread when it was an untranslated card clearly from an unofficial source? I'm not being sarcastic or confrontational, but I'm having a hard time seeing this as a logically valid stance. I mean, what about those who appreciate the leaks? Those who want to get the information first? Are their desires ignored because it could, possibly, inconvenience you? Yet no one is trying to tell you how to enjoy the spoilers and which information to consume. Nobody is taking you by the hand and forcing you to read the leaks. Why then do you feel entitled to limit the information others want? It seems, frankly, nonsensical. You don't speak for the masses anymore than the next poster in this thread. Why would you think otherwise? Are you working under the misconception that the other forum users aren't entitled to their opinions? Once again, I'm simply baffled.
I am not attacking you or anyone who looks at these leaks—once the information is out there, it’s public and that’s that. I am attacking the people who think it's fine to leak to begin with. That is entitlement; to think that just because you have access to certain information, that you own it and can dispose of it as you wish, even if it’s someone else’s intellectual property and you are acting in direct opposition to the content creator's wishes.
Your hands are clean and you are not the problem. Even if this was marked as a leak (which it wasn't), I would not fault you or anyone else for clicking to see it, as that would be both unfair and hypocritical. This is a game of knowledge and strategy, and in some circles it gets very competitive; you should have access to the exact same public knowledge as the rest of the community.
The issue is the people who leak such information in the first place. That's where my ire is directed.
So be it: Let’s entertain the notion that the body count is low. Personally, I would prefer the cost of victory to be steep, given the stakes (and because the cast is so large I think it needs a culling) but that’s not always necessary to tell a good story. Off the top of my head, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and Avatar: The Last Airbender are all fantastic examples of well-told fantasy stories with grand, ambitious finales in which the heroes suffered minimal to no lasting casualties.
How many heroes died in the entire original Star Wars Trilogy? Just Obi Wan… in the very first movie. In Return of the Jedi, victory over the Empire was purchased cheap, by the blood of offscreen Bothans (and not nearly enough Ewoks). Yet it still managed to have, by and large, an emotionally satisfying finale. Yet if you had been spoiled beforehand with the knowledge "None of the Rebels die! Han Solo gets saved, Vader turns good, the Empire goes down, and everyone feels great at the end!" Well... that's true. But if you dismissed it then as trite without experiencing it yourself, you would be cheating both yourself and the story.
Again, how many named heroes died in Return of the King? Exactly Theoden, and that wasn’t even in the last battle. Literally everyone else comes out okay at the end. Frodo loses a finger.
So while I hope to see Gideon and Liliana both go out nobly, it’s not impossible to tell a good story in which they both come out of this alive. It’s not the ending I want to read, of course, but I’ll reserve all judgments until I read the novel for myself and see how it ends.
Though I don’t always like the way Magic’s story goes (I was amazed and upset at how mishandled Rivals of Ixalan was, and I still haven’t forgiven it), the creative team put a lot of effort and energy into this finale and went the extra mile to bring Magic fans a new experience. I intend to give then an open mind until I have experienced the entire story firsthand, as intended. They have made a true effort to step up their game, and I plan to repay them accordingly.
Why are people already moaning about this - "Oh, that was too easy," "Oh, the heroes should have paid a price," "Oh, that was such a painless victory"? You know all this already? I didn't realize we had so many sibyls and clairvoyants on these forums! Truly gifted, this community!
Have you read the novel? Have you seen the last week of previews, when the darkest hours of the war are supposed to play out? This card tells us nothing, absolutely nothing about costs paid or losses suffered, who survives or perishes. All we have is a snapshot of Ravnica's "Endor Celebration" scene. Looks like the good guys win, shocking absolutely no one. The actual surprises should be upcoming.
Give it a couple weeks. Then, once the book is out and the last cards have been spoiled, and all the details are known, then complain with impunity if you so choose. Until then, we simply don't have enough details about the ending to form hard opinions - unless you're really that eager to whine.
Spaniard I know you want to help with your leaks, but you're killing the buzz.
Still though, this a thousand times.
Edit: Actually, let me be more vehement: After all the effort and preparation the creative team went through to prep this story and deliver it to us, rolling out a specially-planned spoiler season and going the extra mile to try and make War of the Spark a unique experience, leaks like this--especially story spotlights--are particularly uncool.
Ditto for whoever the hell it was who leaked Nicol Bolas. We're not grateful, you're not helping, and all you're really doing is cheapening the experience.
But good lord, seeing him get his final comeuppance feels so cathartic.
Wait, wait, wait, ****ing wait.
So a Zombie God shoots the hero out of a stormy sky while he's riding a freaking pegasus, only for the hero's fall is broken by an ancient, evil demon lord who swoops in to deliver him to his tragic final showdown with a multiverse-conquering dragon-god.
Magic lore has officially peaked. Nothing will ever top this. This is so amazing and over-the top, it's borderline pornographic.
So we know according to the book that:
Gideon dies.
Domri dies.
Dack dies. (Apparently Dack even gets some time to shine before he goes.)
Ugin sacrifices himself, but does not actually die. (This will still probably wreak havoc on Tarkir, calling it now. Bye bye, dragons.)
However, since the book can't possibly cover all 36 carded Planeswalkers, those are the only "confirmed" losses we have at this point. We do know that there will be online fiction for War of the Spark as well, written by the same author as the novel. Mark Rosewater said that story fans will want to read both the novel and the online fiction to get the full story.
So whether more named characters will die in the online stories remains to be seen.
Apparently that's exactly what we see on The Elder Spell.
Regarding deaths, the information we have so far is just what's in the novel. Apparently there is supposed to be online fiction for War as well (seriously, Wizards, why the delay?)
It could very well be that we'll see more character deaths in the online fiction. The novel can only show so much.
Not so. Dominaria has an afterlife, and we've glimpsed it.
We saw Jeska reuniting with Kamahl in the afterlife at the end of Future Sight, after she sacrificed herself to heal the Multiverse and begin The Mending.
In Gerrard's last moments, as he incinerates in the final blast that kills himself, Urza, and Yawgmoth, Hanna's spirit receives and welcomes him, taking his hand and leading him away.
So we have at least two prior examples of heroes who sacrifice themselves reuniting with loved ones.
This. Just like with the Gatewatch, many people back in the day were sick of and felt overexposed to the Weatherlight Crew. Fans might look at him differently now, but Gerrard Capashen was something like the Gideon/Jace of his era.
Wow. I was expecting this end, but not these emotions.
Did I feel this way when Gerrard Capashen died...? It's been so long.
Man, that flavor text feels SO good to read.
The thing about killing Bolas is that it just wouldn't be enough retribution. He has 25,000 years of atrocities to answer for, dozens of enslaved/destroyed worlds, and deaths on his hands numbering at least into the billions. Cutting him down with a sword and just ending him in a moment of righteous justice would feel good for a minute, but then ring hollow.
Bolas has to feel his defeat. He has to know he is beaten, pathetic, and impotent forevermore. His infinite atrocities merit an infinite punishment. Now his victims can begin to have justice.
I had been so excited for War of the Spark. So excited to see this conclusion. I had been hugrilly following the card previews and unfolding story every day, and found myself truly invested in seeing how this ended, and eager to see the final story twists and fates of the key players. Never in years had I been so looking forward to a new Magic set. I got caught up in the rush, and dared to believe that this story would deliver a cool and worthwhile conclusion that would leave me feeling satisfied. It would be different than BFZ. It would surely be more satisfying than Ixalan, than Dominaria. I was truly excited to read this book and see the big payoff.
But then I started seeing bits of information. The book had leaked, and though I hadn’t seen the initial leaks, most comments from those who had seen them weren’t good. It seemed many comments were dripping with negativity and cynicism, and though I tried to avoid online spoilers, I bumped into just enough spoilers - and enough sneering about bad writing and the predictability of it all - that I found myself increasingly disheartened, disappointed, and disenchanted. “Depressed” sounds like hyperbole, but that’s close to how I felt earlier today. I finally decided that I’d been duped by my own foolish, naive expectations and that it probably wasn’t worth my continued emotional investment to hold out anymore.
So I bit the bullet and looked up the novel spoilers.
SNIP
Odd you should mention that -- it's because of the overwrought hand-wringing over the art books that I learned to wait and see the story for myself.
The vanquishing of the Eldrazi Titans on Zendikar was no masterpiece of writing by any means. Still, it made at least a modicum of sense in the online fiction, whereas in the art book it made none whatsoever. Was it good, in the fiction? No. Was it much better than the art book made it sound? Well, it's not really saying much, but yeah, it absolutely was. I wan't thrilled, but I could at least accept it.
As for Eldritch Moon: I remember all the eye-rolling when the Innistrad art book revealed that Emrakul got sealed in the moon. I remember because I was rolling eyes along with everyone else. But the delivery in the fiction? Far better than what I'd hoped for, and I know I'm far from the only one who ended up eating my words and praising that ending.
If the art books taught me anything, it was to calm down and wait.
No, I didn't. Boromir died very early in the saga. I was referring specifically to the climax of the narrative, the Return of the King. The equivalent of where we are now in the Gatewatch's story.
Whatever you might think of the Book of Revelation, it was written as a message of hope and absolutely intended to have a happy ending (though it was not written to be an ending to the entire Bible; it only ended up becoming one centuries after the fact). God triumphs over Satan, Good defeats Evil, the New Jerusalem is born, the martyrs are vindicated, and God's suffering people are delivered to reign in glory forever. God "wipes away every tear from their eye," and death is no more.
Jewish and Islamic eschatology unfolds similarly, with the triumph of Good and the reign of divine justice.
The Iliad, absolutely. What about the Odyssey? Odysseus makes it home to Ithaca, slaughters all his wife's suitors, and finishes the tale back in her arms. It's sweet, really. Ovid's Metamorphoses, meanwhile, ends with the glorious, divine ascension of the new Imperial line, a celebration and prophecy of the glory of Rome.
So the claim that a "Happy ending isn't something classic at all" is simply untrue. "The Classics" are not monolithic like that; they span cultures, eras and genres.
But in the end, I suspect we're getting sidetracked here. Why is any of this relevant to War of the Spark?
I am not attacking you or anyone who looks at these leaks—once the information is out there, it’s public and that’s that. I am attacking the people who think it's fine to leak to begin with. That is entitlement; to think that just because you have access to certain information, that you own it and can dispose of it as you wish, even if it’s someone else’s intellectual property and you are acting in direct opposition to the content creator's wishes.
Your hands are clean and you are not the problem. Even if this was marked as a leak (which it wasn't), I would not fault you or anyone else for clicking to see it, as that would be both unfair and hypocritical. This is a game of knowledge and strategy, and in some circles it gets very competitive; you should have access to the exact same public knowledge as the rest of the community.
The issue is the people who leak such information in the first place. That's where my ire is directed.
How many heroes died in the entire original Star Wars Trilogy? Just Obi Wan… in the very first movie. In Return of the Jedi, victory over the Empire was purchased cheap, by the blood of offscreen Bothans (and not nearly enough Ewoks). Yet it still managed to have, by and large, an emotionally satisfying finale. Yet if you had been spoiled beforehand with the knowledge "None of the Rebels die! Han Solo gets saved, Vader turns good, the Empire goes down, and everyone feels great at the end!" Well... that's true. But if you dismissed it then as trite without experiencing it yourself, you would be cheating both yourself and the story.
Again, how many named heroes died in Return of the King? Exactly Theoden, and that wasn’t even in the last battle. Literally everyone else comes out okay at the end. Frodo loses a finger.
So while I hope to see Gideon and Liliana both go out nobly, it’s not impossible to tell a good story in which they both come out of this alive. It’s not the ending I want to read, of course, but I’ll reserve all judgments until I read the novel for myself and see how it ends.
Though I don’t always like the way Magic’s story goes (I was amazed and upset at how mishandled Rivals of Ixalan was, and I still haven’t forgiven it), the creative team put a lot of effort and energy into this finale and went the extra mile to bring Magic fans a new experience. I intend to give then an open mind until I have experienced the entire story firsthand, as intended. They have made a true effort to step up their game, and I plan to repay them accordingly.
Why are people already moaning about this - "Oh, that was too easy," "Oh, the heroes should have paid a price," "Oh, that was such a painless victory"? You know all this already? I didn't realize we had so many sibyls and clairvoyants on these forums! Truly gifted, this community!
Have you read the novel? Have you seen the last week of previews, when the darkest hours of the war are supposed to play out? This card tells us nothing, absolutely nothing about costs paid or losses suffered, who survives or perishes. All we have is a snapshot of Ravnica's "Endor Celebration" scene. Looks like the good guys win, shocking absolutely no one. The actual surprises should be upcoming.
Give it a couple weeks. Then, once the book is out and the last cards have been spoiled, and all the details are known, then complain with impunity if you so choose. Until then, we simply don't have enough details about the ending to form hard opinions - unless you're really that eager to whine.
Bolas's loss may be a foregone conclusion, but the price of victory and fates of most of the characters are still very much up in the air.
This is literally what I was thinking, haha.
Still though, this a thousand times.
Edit: Actually, let me be more vehement: After all the effort and preparation the creative team went through to prep this story and deliver it to us, rolling out a specially-planned spoiler season and going the extra mile to try and make War of the Spark a unique experience, leaks like this--especially story spotlights--are particularly uncool.
Ditto for whoever the hell it was who leaked Nicol Bolas. We're not grateful, you're not helping, and all you're really doing is cheapening the experience.
Get over yourself. This isn't about you.
Blasphemy.