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  • posted a message on Kess + Adventures
    Quote from WizardMN »
    Kess can cast Instants in the Graveyard since you, basically, look at them as Instants or Sorceries and then see if anything lets you cast them. Normally, this is the normal rules, but Kess allows this as well.

    Toshiro is different since Toshiro targets and they are never instants or sorceries to be targeted in the graveyard.


    Frown the Toshi punish. I guess carry on.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Kess + Adventures
    If you check the gatherer for any of the adventure cards it states that they are creatures in all zones except while on the stack. Adventure cards in graveyards, libraries, exile, or play are only considered creatures. For the purposes of Kess they will never be spells while in graveyard. I asked more or less the same thing for Toshiro Umezawa.

    https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=473052

    First Ruling:
    "An adventurer card is a creature card in every zone except the stack, as well as while on the stack if not cast as an Adventure. Ignore its alternative characteristics in those cases. For example, while it’s in your graveyard, Giant Killer is a white creature card whose converted mana cost is 1. It can’t be the target of the triggered ability of Mystic Sanctuary."
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from EonAon »
    Blade of the Bloodchief should be considered as well if you go equip route. not that your going to have a lot of sac outlets but any you do use really ramps up most of the deck


    Yea, can go that direction too. I have always been sort of hesitant because this deck tends to swarm so lots of our targets tend to lack much for evasion.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from Vlasiax »
    So it might be better to run Open the Armory to get additional chance to hit Skullclamp, which draws ton of cards? But besides that I don't think there's an equipement or even aura that might be an additional target for this tutor.


    I have put some thought into an equipment package. I think Umezawa's Jitte and Heirloom Blade would be some of the next consideration equipment. I think the swords of X and Y are mostly too expensive to spin up for this deck when you take into account how much mana they cost and how long it takes to get their value back out. Jitte is also a little slow but the option to 3 for 1 in combat vs opposing swarm decks is mostly what I look at there but shy of playing against a lot of swarmy token decks I don't really like it much. Konda's Banner seems like it would be fun but given it needs to enchant a legend really throws a wrench into it making it feel a little overly dependent on Edgar being in play which feels a little winmore to plan to equip him beyond getting him in play. Heirloom Blade still kind of intrigues me but it still feels like worse Skullclamp but I think its valuable to consider that it always draws you into action where as clamp draws into lands and such. You need to push a bit harder on sac outlets and low cost vamps for the blade but I really don't think it's that bad if looking to expand the equipment slot.

    I think if you push equipment I would try to get three equipment though just to have a bit more redundancy for the tutors. After that I would generally suggest getting Steelshaper's Gift and Stoneforge Mystic over Open the Armory but I get that if you are looking at Open the Armory its probably for budget reasons. I went back and forth on equipment early on in my build but I found that in a lot of cases it wasn't necessarily my preferred thing to work with here. Too often the appeal of tutoring for Necropotence just won out over tutoring for equipment. There are still some affordable budget option tutors like Gamble that could try to get Necro. I just happened to have the money to not rely on the inconsistency of that card but in some ways its nice that its faster than Imperial Seal in that it resolves itself in the same turn.

    Bolas's Citadel / Champion of Dusk are still also very viable. I ended up cutting some of them because ultimately my high mana cost draw effects started feeling a bit too high to run all of them. These are affordable cards as well that I think are worth testing if you need more draw. Given my tutors and density of 5+ mana cards I was trying to avoid jamming all of them in a deck. Consider having 2+ 5 mana draw cards in hand at one time vs the option of having one of those and a tutor. The tutors open the deck up a bit more and allow some of my 1x of effects to be a bit more reachable. Having those tutors alongside a single Austere Command can make my access to that wrath feel much more consistent but I still have the option of tutoring into necro. If you are going to cut back on the expensive tutors my suggestion is to potentially also cut Austere Command as I think with less tutors Austere starts competing with those expensive card draw slots.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from Vlasiax »
    What do you guys think about Cauldron Haze as a means to double the number of nontoken bodies to sacrifice? Am I right that these 1/1s come to the battlefield first and then die due to -1/-1 counter being put AFTER coming to battlefield?

    EDIT: Also to get more card draw do you think that Night's Whisper and maybe Costly Plunder might be an option?


    Cauldron Haze - its probably going to be an inferior Boros Charm. You lose all of the tokens you had and on top of that they come back smaller which means that without an anthem creature in play a lot of the non token vampires might also end up dying when they return. I would say its probably several cards that I would run over it. You are correct that they would enter before dying but they would die as a state based effect before any of the ETB effects resolve.

    Something to take into account with a low curve like what we run is that generally speaking you will need to draw more cards than your average deck. I do think that Sign in Blood effects tend to be fine in most decks but we can play more cards in a turn with this deck than your average deck. I would say the overall value per card in this deck is lower which means its important to draw more cards for the mana. Its part of why Necropotence is so valuable for this deck because we don't spend mana drawing those cards really (outside of the cost to cast it). Its part of why I have put a lot more priority on tutors because the amount of draw that you can get your hands on of this level is quite limited.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from NZB2323 »
    What do people think of Castle of Locthwain?


    In general, I think the castles are extremely slow when you look at activating them. Of the three of them that we could run here, I think the red one is the one we would most want to activate but I also think the red intensity of it is REALLY high. The black castle is a very unsatisfyingly expensive land for how fast we ideally want to be running so I would say that we would really only activate it in a really bad spot but I also think that if I had the option to cast Edgar I would do that like, every time over activating ANY of the castles.

    I think the castles are cool but I also don't think we really want to ideally be activating any of them in this deck. They seem to play a lot better towards decks that don't mind if they are a little slower in nature. The black castle is kind of weird to me as it seems like a card that you want when playing a deck that runs enpty on hand but those kind of decks probably want to be moving faster and it looks a bit dreadfully slow when you look at essentially a 4 mana draw 1 with a bunch of life loss attached.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from BloodyMangus »
    What does everyone think about Fires of Invention? Looks like a one sided red Aluren to me.


    Our spells are cheap and if you are actually pushing good draw I can think of a lot of turns where I cast more than two spells a turn. Good turns backed by draw can often be 4+ spells cast in a turn.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Multiplayer Jori-En Deck
    My own list actually looks fairly similar. My list is a little out of date but its still mostly accurate.

    I have questioned copy spells a few times and ultimately I have decided for the most part not to run them myself. I power my own list using things like Future Sight to chain spells and just get on spellcast value.

    If I have any advice to give, I guess it would be that lowering the curve and running cheaper draw mostly has panned out for me. I see a lot of big splashy spells and walkers which is fine, I just thought I would say don't be afraid to slim down and run harder on turning cards over. Its amazing what a few Future Sight effects with a ton of cantrips can do.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build


    Sorry about the delay, I have been a bit wishy washy with salvation these days.

    Yes, I still kind of like her but she is kind of a slow anthem effect. She doesn't buff the rest of my creatures until she can attack which is a bit slow. I am testing out some new things with the sac outlets which I don't know where I stand on that stance yet but I think she is still a bit of a boarderline lord from the standpoint that she takes time to spin up.

    Quote from jakethewhale »
    What are your thoughts on Embereth Skyblazer as a buff? Unfortunate that it doesn't have haste, but the following turn, it would buff itself to 7 attack, and all your vamps to 4+ attack.


    I can't find a card for that card name. Can you link a card? I suspect you are talking about a new card given that there are several other Embereth cards I see spoiled but I haven't seen that one nor can I find it in the spoilers I visit.

    EDIT: Ohhh ok I see it now its one of the beyond print number for next set cards. Its ultimately a worse Mirror Entity in most cases. I would probably just run that instead.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Jori En - Izzet Cantrips
    Quote from NZB2323 »
    What are your thoughts on these cards for ramp:

    ?


    Dockside Extortionist - I think that every game and every meta will give very different results. Obviously if you play against a mono color deck or colorless deck you will see a lot more artifacts and if you play against an enchantress deck the same will happen. I think the faster the meta you play in is, probably the better it gets. It also has a lot of potential as a combo piece if you combine it with say Deadeye Navigator and have it make 3+ treasure. I think in a 75% deck that isn't geared and intending to play with or against dedicated combo, I think it probably isn't that great for me in my build with what I expect to play against. This card is good, and the better and more extreme you want to push your game to probably the better it gets but I think it relies on a lot of assumptions on what your opponents will be doing as well. If you look at it on curve, I think in your average game of commander you will be looking at 0-2 treasure on curve. I think its hard to give a decisive answer on how much value it will give because literally every game and every meta it will perform differently. I own a copy as I bought the precon but as of right now, I don't know that I have plans for a deck that will actually test it. Its going to be a lot better in my opinion in a deck that has 1) Combo outlets for it 2) flicker / copy effects 3) some sort of goblin package with tutors for goblins like Goblin Matron for example.

    Curse of Opulence - Overall, I think its fine but its also one of those things that the later you see it the worse a payoff it will be. Later in the game it becomes harder to casually poke players and the reward for small tempo ramp also decreases. If you can get opponents to give you treasure though it could be fun. Its a little political but its cheap enough I don't see any issue with testing it out.

    Talisman of Creativity - Ramp is fine, this isn't normally a deck I find that I need it but I also don't mind having some ramp. This isn't a deck I feel like I need a lot of ramp for though because most of it isn't accelerating me into my gameplan. Having more mana does make it easier to cast a spell enabler effect and follow up with some spells. Its always a question of what to cut for something like this I guess. I also like ramp that puts lands into play just because artifacts have a tendency to occasionally getting swept.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Jori En - Izzet Cantrips
    Quote from Narglfrob2 »
    Hi everyone, stumbled upon the deck and instantly fell in love! Exactly what I was looking for, a spell-slinger commander that isn't to degenerate / doesn't draws too much hate. I've played one game so far (and won!), look forward to testing more before I make any edits.

    Using the deck currently in the OP as a baseline, what are peoples thoughts on:
    Budget Replacement for Force of Will, would you recommend Pact of Negation or Counterspell? (how important is free?)

    Search of Azcanta, basically rampant growth with suspend, with a little surveiling in between. Seems like this deck really wants the ramp and should be able to flip it easily.

    Submerge, allows you to stop creature combos for zero mana, protect win-cons, and helps trigger Jori. Combine with Portent or Ray of Erasure (to shuffle / bin their creature after putting it on top) for maximum style points.

    Anyways, thanks for maintaining this list, its fantastic!


    Yea, unfortunately I haven't been maintaining my salvation lists much anymore as I have mostly made the move to nexus. I haven't gotten everything updated and ported over there though so this one is a little bit outdated.

    Force of Will - Force of Negation would be my preferred but Pact of Negation seems fine I suppose. I have been doing some testing with Force of Negation in addition to Force of Will of late. Pact seems..... fine I just really don't want to pay that 5 mana off later really which would put me very hesitant to use it and ultimately I think Force of Negation is superior for this deck as I really don't intend to defend my own position with it (aka cast it on my turn).

    Search for Azcanta - Originally I was hesitant because the activated ability isn't great on the flipped side but yea, as ramp I agree its nice and technically its a mana dump for if you brick off. I have since added it to my list intending to use it as a scry / ramp option.

    Submerge - I think it can still be situational. Its true that green is popular but my thought process is along the lines of...... man that would be such a bad card if you can't alt cast it. Vs non combo decks it can also be unfortunate in that you only tempo disabling them instead of killing a problem.

    Glad you like it, my list still mostly resembles the OP but its a bit out of date. I still need to bring a few of my lists to nexus :/

    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    I imagine Contamination would work fairly well. It's really not the type of card I am going to play myself but if you are going all out then I think its probably something that would work given the number of black vampires and free tokens we get.

    My issue with this though is that it quickly gets into a question of what level of deck this is. If you want to play against infinite combo decks which is generally speaking where I would consider land locking people I think vampires is still a bit tricky to play given its a combat based concept. Almost any combat based deck tends to be slower to kill multiple 40 life opponents than combo can go.

    I have always sort of seen Edgar Vampires as a fast combat oriented deck that is good against other combat / control / ramp based strategies in this game and possibly some untuned combo decks. If you want to go all out then its only fair to question how things look vs all out combo decks and I think vampires are a bit slow still on that axis. I sort of take a thought process of not using tactics I don't want done to me.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    ISBPathfinder, how has Obelisk of Urd been performing? I am playing Mirror Entity in its place.

    The only other change is I cut Vampire Lacerator. I used that slot to test out Scapegoat though I have yet to cast it. I think Vampire Lacerator is bad and I don't like having to remember a trigger for a bad card.

    I gave the War of the Spark and M2O changes a test today. I really like the direction you are taking the deck. How has the new aristocrat playline been performing for you?



    I don't play this deck a ton because most of the time this deck is a little excessive for my meta. I did a bit of testing right after adding some of the sac outlets in but so far the only thing I can really say is that Yawgmoth seems insane with a bunch of cheap bodies. I still don't have all that much testing into Obelisk of Urd so its still hard for me to really say much about it.

    There are definitely decks in the meta I don't feel bad playing this against, its more that my opponents often don't say anything when they are stepping up to decks that I would normally want to play this against them. I played this deck a few times against an Urza combo / stasis deck and it felt fairly good there but while he was kind of going all out I don't think he had that great of a list outside of having key notable cards.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from NZB2323 »
    What’s everyone’s thoughts on Idol of Oblivion?


    It looks probably good. I for sure want to give it some testing. Its not a ton of draw but the fact that its only an upfront two mana cost and anytime we cast a vampire we can throw in a free draw puts it fairly high in my book for testing.

    Quote from Kangodo »
    It's going to replace my mentor of the meek for sure.

    I also like the new Chainer, giving your creatures haste is really good. Not sure if I want it.
    Gift of Doom can be played early and I can sac a token to attach it to Edgar.


    Chainer is also interesting. It kind of lets us wildcard our way into our best creatures repeatedly. I am just not sure about the fact that its a 4 cost non vampire really.

    Quote from BloodyMangus »
    I think Chainer, Nightmare Adept is interesting as some sort of recursion engine you play after a wrath. Would be fun to test although it's probably a little too slow for this deck.

    On a fun side note, chainer will give haste to all the vamps that are cast through Bolas's Citadel.


    Cool interaction, I agree though that he is probably a bit slow for the deck. If someone does test him let us know how it goes.

    Quote from jakethewhale »
    Have you considered Bedlam? Other than lacking indestructible, it seems like a better Iroas. Unconditional evasion for your entire board, and there isn't really a downside since we would ideally be swinging with our whole board anyway. Five-Alarm Fire seems maybe too cute, but it can snowball pretty hard.


    Bedlam interesting suggestion. I guess the question is if you can win an all out race. Vampires can chump fairly well in the mid game thanks to the free tokens. If you are confident that you can win races then I guess yea it sounds interesting. Some of the pay life for draw mechanics might be a little concerning paired with it assuming an opponent also has an aggressive deck. I feel like it might vary a bit based on what you play against and the meta you play in.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Commander Forum Helpdesk and Announcements
    Its an automation that looks at accounts with low posts due to how bots usually are new accounts. A moderator should be able to mark it as not spam. It was a precaution that was taken out to minimize the impact of bots but now and then it hits low post accounts like yours.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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