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  • posted a message on Rules committee narrow minded?
    I think that it is true to some extent that the RC's views are narrow but its more so because there is no national meta. Every meta is different with commander and a lot of levels of play exist where as when you look at other formats like modern, standard, legacy there are tournament results to fall back on and in most LGS you will see some level of presence of national meta decks trickle down.

    I don't think its really the RC's fault and I don't really think there is an easy solution to solve it. The concept of the advisor's committee giving additional feedback is a decent idea but I think it far from solves the problem of needing more exposure to more metas for additional sample size data.

    I think as a whole, the RC does a decent job. I personally would prefer a larger banned list but I think given what objectives the RC has set out with they have managed their banned list fairly close to how I would want it given the objective of a smaller banned list.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Best Mardu commander?
    I would also reiterate Kaalia or Edgar. Kaalia in my opinion is only mentioned if you are playing mass land destruction tactics so if you aren't doing that, its Edgar and not even close.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from DrunkT »


    Yeah, thats true. Thing is in my meta the group was scared of Markov, so many times they where banging me up as a 3v1 from the start until i was at 10-15 or something so that i could not pay much life for card draw. So i was leaning to try some lifelinkers that are in reality fuel for card draw.

    I haven't played it in a while now... maybe it's time to see if they remember.

    Great to see you again ISBPathfinder, i'm following a couple of your decks. Thanks.


    I am mostly active on MTGNexus these days. I come back here rarely to check on my old lists but I haven't been updating other than responding to people who inquire about my old lists when I do rarely check in.

    Quote from DrunkT »
    Ok, so last night i played two games with Uncle Edgar.
    First one, the group ended me first. Deck was moving smooth and fast, sadly i flooded a little at mid/end game and couldn't finish it so the 3v1 got me. Second game they gave me some space at the beginning and ended up winning.

    As for the lifelinkers inclutions i mentioned, the only one that felt relevant was Tithe Drinker altought it was a fringe case i think, since i was flooding i dumped the excess mana in extort, in fact she ate a removal spell. I guess she stays in my list for the moment, maybe my group wastes another removal spell in her. They tend to hold grudges.

    What you guys think about the new "dual" land cycle? I'm considering Brightclimb Pathway Since black is the primary color in the deck, i like this one because the only one drop i think makes a huge differece on turn one is Serra Ascendant In fact the only fetchland i have is Marsh Flats for the same reason.


    I ran Tithe Drinker in the past. I think its probably one of the more reasonable lifelinkers but even with that I will say that when things are going well, I kind of never used its extort effect which is why I stopped playing it. I do think of the options to have some lifegain its probably one of the more reasonable options to run.

    I have seen a lot of edgar lists run Gifted Aetherborn and that is one of those lifelinkers I have never been able to get behind.

    Brightclimb Pathway - I think its ok but the question is what would you bring it in for? I am down to like 5 or 6 basics tops and while I think cutting a swamp could probably be ok I don't know that I like it over much else.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Crap, its been too long since I checked in over here lol.

    Quote from NZB2323 »
    ISBpathfinder, what are your thoughts on Ruinous Ultimatum? I know 7 mana is a lot but it destroys all nonland permanents your opponents’s control and I know you’re running Austere Command. It’s probably an easy replace, right?


    Edit: Also what are your thoughts on Savai Triome?


    Even with the mana cost being similar to Austere Command, I think that the color intensity is off the chart. I also think that even just one more mana when it comes to anything that costs 4 or more is all increasingly difficult for this deck. We run on a low curve so whenever possible I think its better to curve in lower rather than moving curves up.

    Savai Triome is a sweet card. I think there are a lot of decks where it makes sense to run a copy of these tri lands with fetches but unfortunately ETB tapped lands are a problem that get compiled a lot more when you are trying to move fast which this deck is. I think in a budget markov list it could be fine but if you are trying to move as fast as possible I don't think we can justify an always tapped fix land.

    Quote from Drakon »
    I think that instead of focusing on bigger spells I'd like to ask if Bastion of Remembrance might find a slot in this build? It's essentially a 3-CMC Zulaport Cutthroat effect that survives boardwipes and convinently provides a 1/1 body to use for other effects like Phyrexian Altar.

    I've tried my build recently and must say that I'm very impressed with Cordial Vampire and Blood Artist and co. because their incidental value is huge and these small effects were the reason I've won some of my games. That's why I'm wondering about adding another card like this.


    Bastion of Remembrance - I don't hate it. Its still a non vampire card but coming with a free body, being cheap, and accomplishing something we want helps to some degree. Hitting each opponent is also a big deal with aristocrat effects. Some of my issues with aristocrats is that I haven't found quite enough density of sac outlets I like. I would LOVE to find another few Bloodthrone Vampire level sac outlets but its so rare that we get anything new that I would put on that level. I tried doing aristocrats recently and I ended up backing off because I didn't feel like I had the sac outlet density I wanted especially for the mana price I was willing to pay for them.

    Quote from DrunkT »
    I think if you lean your build towards sac outlets and sac payoffs with Yahenni, Undying Partisan, Pawn of Ulamog, Falkenrath Aristocrat and similar stuff, it could be very good.

    I think if it was a 2 CMC i would include it in a heartbeat, but i struggle with a non-vampire 3 CMC spell.



    ^

    I did try going down that path a while back and I just found that I couldn't get the consistency out of it that I wanted. I wanted a few more sac outlets and I wanted them to cost a little less as well as a few more payoffs. I think we tend to see some new payoffs but the sac outlets we still struggle with.

    Quote from jakethewhale »
    Thoughts on Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner? She looks like a solid draw option that also happens to give some evasion as a mana sink.


    Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner its cute but its a non vampire and I think that I would more consider her a five drop because I really wouldn't want to just cast her at three and not activate that ability in the same turn. I think that the cost is a little steep and you might be paying a lot of mana to blow up your hand before drawing cards so it could easily end up with overdrawing after tapping out. I think its interesting but I think I would pass.

    Quote from NZB2323 »



    I don’t think any creatures who cost 3 mana and aren’t vampires are worth it.

    Quote from jakethewhale »
    I don't think it's fair to write it off just based on that criteria alone. Using that logic, we also couldn't use Tymna, Purphoros, Iroas, or Yawgmoth


    Quote from NZB2323 »

    The only one of those that I run is Purphoros, who is never a creature in this deck.


    Quote from DrunkT »
    As a budget replacement for Tymna i think it's ok. They are kind of similar, but Tymna it's far superior.


    I think that all non vampires are things to look at and question in this list. I think there is a time and place for several though. Obviously I have had some good results with several that are in my own list but I think its well worth questioning each. There is a question of how efficient an effect is when its on a nonvampire for this deck though. Anything where it has continued mana costs to maintain and do something is going to be a lot harder to justify in my book than something that is a fire and forget one time mana cost.

    The problem with Subira is once your vampires become too big she's a dead card. Also if you want draw immediately, you need to have 5 mana sitting around which Edgar will likely not.
    Not an awful card, but probably one of the last options to consider.


    If you have a swarm of vampires and they are bigger than 2 power then I think you probably don't need more draw :p

    Quote from Drain Life »
    I haven't checked in for some time, so here I am. Over the Covid 19 global crisis and beyond, I have been updating my build and playing through Skype when I can. I always come back to this list to see what is going on and if there is any cool tech to plunder. I am glad that this thread has not been abandoned. As always, this is an inspiration for my budget build.

    My best friend has a Scion of the Ur Dragon deck and it is imperative that I have ways of removing and/or blocking his dragons, or I just lose. Scion can ramp into play by the 4th turn and knock me out through the air on turn 5. Based on the turn order, that gives me 4-5 turns to have an answer or scoop. Similarly, my wife plays Inalla which can ramp on turn two, cast Trophy Mage on turn three and combo on turn 4... in addition to other paths to victory. The best I can do is attack Inalla and try to have removal in the form of Path or StP or something for the Scion.

    You know how much I respect your build, but against the decks I face, I find it better to have some interaction (instant speed removal) and some more anthems such as Glory of Warfare and combat modifiers like Dolmen Gate or Cover of Darkness which were both older tech you had shared before. In my games, it has been less about the fast initial rush as it has been about being mana efficient and having individually strong attacks that go in as unblocked as possible.

    I really feel like the wonderful thing about Edgar Markov is that, depending on your budget and meta, it can be a "Your millage may vary" kind of a deck, and this is a wonderful starting place to see how it fits with your meta. Never stop updating and improving it. I deeply appreciate it.


    I think that every meta has different demands that will get you playing a little different with different tech. Dolmen Gate for instance is fantastic if you play against a lot of other go wide decks but it might not be the card you need if your opponents are playing a bunch of sweepers and control.

    There is nothing wrong with adjusting your list to fit the meta you play in. Spot removal has its place as well, I just think that it is primarily for must answer things which in my book for this deck are threats that are ending the game if not answered or preventing you from playing. The more of that stuff you see the more answers you need. I have been hating on Swords to Plowshares for a few years now from the standpoint that so many of the must answer threats don't feel like they are creatures anymore. They still exist though and if you see something like an Elesh Norn, Consecrated Sphinx, or Seedborn Muse I am more than happy to have and cast that Swords to Plowshares. I just also feel like I see a lot of combo based things where I would rather have a Disenchant or can't be responded to at all with spot removal (looking at you Thassa's Oracle).

    Thanks, I ended up downsizing my collection a little selling off a number of expensive things like going from 4 Mana Crypts to 2 and selling off a lot of duplicate ABU Duels to pay off some debt before my kid was born. I have found it a little harder to have as many active multicolored and or fast decks together after that. Currently my Markov list is not complete but also not put away. I might order a few more Mana Crypts as I do like having another one or two on hand but at that time it was more important to get things payed down. Since then I paid off the house that I sold that I had to take out a loan to cover the sale of, I paid off my car, my student loans, and am within the next few months going to pay off the hospital for my daughter's birth. I am almost debt free so I might be able to pick up some of the things I purged at the time to not be up to my eyeballs in debt lol.



    I think I might have responded to this question on Nexus already but I think it is not because I would want 3-4+ as the hit before I feel I would be happy with it. I feel like it would be sort of rare to hit for more than one as it stands and one to two is not a good result in my book.

    The determining factor is probably comparing the trigger vs just playing another 1 drop or card draw instead. Comparing it to a 1 drop, you could say that in the case of blood-priest you are paying 1 mana for the bodies, and 1 for the drain effect. That means the drain has to on average deal as much damage as simply having two more bodies in play would. There will be times where you have no other party creatures, or you have 2. A fully party is very unlikely. Let us assume then that on average you have a party of 2, which is 6 damage total.
    With pump effects, your vampires will on average be 3/3s. This means that two additional bodies are offering at least a potential 6 damage, possibly more if they attack more than once. The damage potential of just playing two 1 drops instead of this card is better, but I could see the argument that blood-priest dealing direct damage is more reliable.
    In the end, leaning into synergy with the number of bodies in play is probably the better direction as it is what Edgar is best at. It is much easier to optimize for a wide board than it is having a 3+ party. Blood-Priest is by no means a BAD card, but if you have a refined deck list there probably isn't anything worth cutting for it.


    I agree.

    Quote from DrunkT »
    This is interesting just as a 2 drop. I've been favoring a couple of lifelinkers in the deck and this is an upgrade.



    Life is a resource, being an aggro deck generally speaking I usually feel like we haven't been fast enough before my own life total is an issue and by then its hard for a little bit of lifegain to be what keeps us in. Use up the life and move faster. If you run out, its usually because it took too long to kill everyone.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Jenara EDH deck- No Budget
    What would you think about adding Hadana's Climb? I am not normally one for trying to make Jenara better outside of her own ability but it flips to be a reasonable land and the activated ability of the land is really kind of spooky.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Crescendo of War is cool, but its slow to spin up. In a lot of cases with the more expensive cards and really non vampires in general you want a fast return on investment. Four mana is manageable but waiting a turn to get value back while being very obvious about what you are doing isn't great.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from Drakon »
    Hi ISBP! What are your thoughts about Heraldic Banner? Could it be considered another anthem effect for Vampires (which are mostly black)?


    At three mana its not really great ramp for the deck. I guess you could get away with running it but it feels like kind of bad ramp / bad anthem mushed together. Maybe that's good enough but I wouldn't normally run a three mana ramp or three non creature vampire anthem for the most part in this list. Getting both I guess is a thing but I am not really excited about it. I think there are a lot of other ramp or anthem effects that compete with it is all.

    I think its far from a terrible inclusion. I just think that there isn't a huge reason to run it when comparing with other ramp or anthems. Even just a +1/+1 anthem has some amount of advantage in that you then don't still 1 for 1 trade with a token deck. I did kind of questionably recently add Arcane Signet to my list which I guess I could maybe see going with the Banner instead but to be honest, that is something I am far from confident in here anyways.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from ArgonathDK »
    Thank you so much for your answer. They make so much sense, and I almost feel stupid when you explain it, cause it just seem SO obv Smile

    Do you run Dech Tech's on youtube or anywhere else, that one can follow?

    Thanks again, this is SO much help.


    No problem, I really haven't done much with the original post in conveying a lot of this. I kind of backed off on trying to be the person to make a Primer on this in part because after I really got it where I wanted I backed off on it as its faster than I often want to try to be for average games of commander.

    I primarily post to MTGNexus these days but I haven't done any work with this over there in part because while I have not retired this deck, again I am not really seeing tons of changes these days with it nor am I playing it as much. I kept everything for Markov over here given I wasn't really making big strides with it of late and a lot of the history of it was here.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from ArgonathDK »


    Thank you so much. I already had my eyes on Yawgmoth, but I have never played with Necropotence even though I know it's a very strong card. To be honest I don't quiet understand the card, and how to use it, but know I guess I have to learn Smile

    I see btw that you almost don't run any removal. Do you rely on pushing through with your Vampires, or that your other opponents just takes care of it? I quickly find my self as the arch nemesis in the game, for obvious reasons, so ppl are hesitant when it comes to remove anything that works against me, meaning I almost always have to fight my own battles, and can't rely on politics like with other decks.

    Does this deck only win if one doens't run into too many wipes? What was your game plan?

    How do you feel about Selfless Spirit as a little protection? It even keeps the curve down.
    Also, I see you run Obelisk of Urd, so how do you feel about Venerated Loxodon in the deck?


    Necropotence - essentially it lets you refill your hand every turn at the cost of life. Being that you are the aggro player use your HP pool to get yourself resources. The way you lose the game tends to be because you run out of resources or the game goes long rather than health hitting zero. I mean, eventually you die to hp hitting zero but its usually because you failed at your primary goal of being the aggressor.

    Removal - I run a little bit. My answer is to kill the player that is being the problem rather than removing their things. Don't try to answer everything, just run people down and answer what you have to. Its part of why most of the answers I do run are very versatile in targeting instead of having things like Swords to Plowshares. Who cares whats in play if you are killing that player through it. Target priority and killing the right person first is a big thing too.

    Wraths - Keep drawing cards and you will be fine. I can think of some games where I would eat a wrath every turn and be fine because I kept my draw going. If you stop drawing that is when a wrath will wreck you.

    Selfless Spirit - Its ok. Keep in mind that it won't protect from every type of wrath and wraths aren't the only thing that can cause problems. An opponent walks right through this with a Toxic Deluge for example. Personally I think that people over focus the idea of wraths as the problem for this deck and my issue with most wrath protection effects is how they are often situational or require mana to stay up and be responsive. Selfless is far from the worst of these and I think if you want to run it its probably fine, just be aware of the drawbacks of it as well. Most anything that isn't a vampire in some way or another competes for a slot in the list.

    Obelisk of Urd / Venerated Loxodon - I haven't gotten enough testing in with Obelisk to really comment much on it. I have been playing the list a bit less of late but I think the difference between Obelisk and Loxodon are quite big. Keep in mind that you can have any number of vampires taking the buff of Obelisk which is also twice as powerful as Loxodon and you can attack with the improved power of Obelisk this turn where as Loxodon has a big wait before its buff picks up given you just tapped down the ones you buffed. While I am still not sure how I feel about Obelisk, I would say that Loxodon is less than 1/4 as good in my mind for the deck.

    Quote from jakethewhale »
    What do you think about Rankle, Master of Pranks? His ability to sacrifice creatures seems good to keep opponents' boards clear while we have tokens to spare. If opponents don't have threatening creatures, the hand attack can be strong, and we likely run enough draw to compensate anyway.


    Rankle, Master of Pranks - Outside of the fact that its a 4 mana non vampire, yea I dig it. All of the effects are relevant for the deck. I guess my issue is that I don't know that it does enough for a 4 mana non vampire. We are trying to move so fast and every turn we tend to have a lot of demands on our mana. Its nice that he has haste and does his thing quickly, I guess I just don't see it as something that will add up fast enough to pay for itself and the value over time or off of curve seems questionable to me.




    I have been kind of lazy when it comes to updating this list. I have known for a while I wanted to make a few changes so I am going to push a few through after giving them some more thought.

    DECK CHANGES:

    • Dark Confidant -> Arcane Signet - as much as I hate to admit it, Dark Confidant hasn't been stellar. He costs less than Phyrexian Arena but has all of the same issues and dies to a lot of the things that sweep my board as well. I wasn't exactly on the hype train for Arcane Signet when it came out but having played it in a few other decks I think it probably is the right to pick it up here. Only costing a single mana the turn I play it because it taps for mana and fixes for me makes it cost very little and give me fixing and ramp at just too cheap of a cost. I still don't think I would want the other signets but this one is so much superior to all the others its not even fair.
    • Falkenrath Aristocrat -> Champion of Dusk - Falkenrath Aristocrat is close to what I would call a pet card of mine. I really am fond of what it does. That said, I think the payoff for sac vampires is still not quite there. If there were more incentive to have that sacrifice on demand it might be different. Without more death trigger vampires in the chaper costs though I just haven't been happy enough to pay this much for this effect. I think I will give Yahenni, Undying Partisan a little longer to test in part because he has some natural stat growth that seems appealing. I had wanted to push my draw up a little more which gets me back to bringing Champion back in.
    • Judith, the Scourge Diva -> Universal Automaton - Judith was...... close on several occasions to being what I was looking for but I still found her a little lacking primarily on the fact that she wasn't a vampire. With adding more draw to the list and some of that shifting the curve up I just kind of want to drop some mana here and there and increase the vampire count.
    • Pawn of Ulamog -> Adanto Vanguard the death triggers plan just wasn't panning out. I wanted to drop the curve down a little where I can which got me to this change.
    • Ad Nauseam -> Bolas's Citadel The more I thought about it, Ad Nauseam just costs a bit too much mana given some of the new options. The fact that it costs me 5 mana and a bunch of life and I still need to cast the things I draw just put me sort of questioning if this is where I wanted to be. I haven't tested Citadel out yet and the more I thought about it I think I kind of like the option to use my life to cast things directly to play.

    I guess thats all for now. I need to get some more testing in with all these new changes.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from ArgonathDK »


    I totally agree with this, and that everyone has to be at the same powerlevel. I just think that some ppl rate markov higher than he is, due to them not running board wipes, removal etc. and it just sounded like you didn't play it due to it's speed. This makes alot more sense Smile

    Anyway, if it's not too much to ask, could I then get you to have a look at my current deck version, and make suggestions? The cards in my "Maybe" list are cards that I own and bought at the very beginnning before I read your post here, and decided to go low curve Smile

    I'm also willing to buy more cards, but atm there is no room for mana crypt and cards at a simular price.

    I really appriciate all your help. My current playgroup likes the pressure from this deck, and are running decks at the same powerlevel, so don't feel shy suggesting powerful cards , muhahaha Smile


    My best advice is to continue to try to lower your curve while increasing the number of cards you can draw without paying mana for them. Necropotence is probably the most busted card in my list and if you were to ask me what all the tutors I run are for, its mostly to get my hands on this card. When you spin up this card its not unheard of for me to try to play 4-6 cards a turn every turn until it is answered. I will often mulligan looking for hands that have good draw or a tutor. Once you get your hands on a copy of this card my next suggestion would be to add Yawgmoth, Thran Physician. I will still probably tutor for Necropotence over Yawgmoth but I have still been incredibly pleased with the performance of Yawgmoth so far.

    This deck lives on having a low curve and busted card draw. If you can just keep focusing in on doing that better it really will run really smooth.

    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from ArgonathDK »
    @ISBPathfinder

    Sorry for not responding before now, but have been out sick.

    Thank you so much, for your very in depth answer, it was really helpful, and when I asked my self alot of the questions you asked, then I have to agree with you.

    Two questions though Smile

    You say that you are not playing it due to it being a bit fast in your current meta, so my question is....isn't that the point of an aggro deck? Imo its a valid strategy, and even in a steady playing group, ppl will have to be ready for all tactics, it being mill or aggro. Agreeing on not playing aggro leads to deck building that are unatural imo, bc ppl are then able to build around it, and not care. The deck is fast yes, the Emminence trigger is powerful yes, but imo not overpowered. I think ppl rate the powerlevel higher than it sohuld be only due to them not having any aggro answers in their deck.

    I would very much like to hear your thoughts on this Smile

    Last question is about one last Enchantment, and you will properbly just tell me the same as you did above, but I have just found my selv in several situations now, where this would have helped me to push through, giving a flying vampire this buff, or a non-blockable one.

    Angelic Exaltation

    Once again, thank you so much for this thread. Having only played Commander for 3-4 months, this is the thread I have enjoyed the most, and I still play my Markov deck with big excitement Smile


    Aggro - I don't have a problem being an aggro player. My issue is more that if you sit down repeatedly and goldfish your opponents there is probably a disparity between the power levels of the decks being played. I like building powerful decks but I like it when I still sit down to a game of magic with opponents that has a back and forth. Its true that aggro can be a less interactive archetype but at a point I am just being cruel to the other players. I own plenty of decks that would have a hard time playing against my own vampire deck but sometimes its like playing a tuned out 75% list against a casual deck I feel bad about doing. When I tend to play my vampires it tends to be against some of the better players and I often mention that I am stepping it up because I do want to have a challange rather than see if I can goldfish the new players so to say. Some other challenge has been that I sold off some of my collection so in some cases what used to be 4 Mana Crypts became 2 so some of my resources are shared so I have to determine where I want those for the week or I have to try to push them around between games. I tend to sort of prepair my decks for the week ahead of time rather than on the fly moving stuff. I am not against playing aggro, I just like to be on a similar page of power level when I play if that makes sense. When I need to do testing and improvements to a deck I tend to give a little more room for testing but I am at a point where the list as a whole doesn't need a lot of proving or testing anymore.

    Angelic Exaltation - The effect can be amusing to send in an evasive creature for a bunch but the loss of damage from having the same card be an anthem is very real. Also when you consolidate your attack like this you become a lot more susceptible to spot removal or a maze effect. Its an interesting concept but where the payoff would really be would be if your opponents have a lot of blockers for you or using it like a psudo haste outlet in that you could have a bunch of new creatures contribute immediately. Still though, I don't think that taking a slot for a non vampire gives enough in this case over just jamming an anthem here.


    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from ArgonathDK »
    Still a huge help. My version is a bit more budget friendly, so I don't have the same freedom. But you post here had a lot of new information, and you experience with the deck is SO valuable for me, that never played it before. I'm testing my own version for the first time tonight, with a low 43 Creature mana curve.

    I my self love Patriarch's Bidding and are also thinking about Command The Dreadhorde to bring back the value when board wipes are unstoppable Smile

    Either way, thanks for posting, and hoping you will return to The Vampire Lord in the near future. Will look for your posts Smile


    Its not that I don't have the deck together anymore but the deck is a bit much for the average game of magic that I find myself in. I have a few other decks that I kind of find to be a little similar as well and sometimes they get dismantled or played less frequently. Recently I built a Sai, Master Thopterist deck and I think ultimately it might end up in the same boat as Edgar but because its new and I haven't finished tuning and adjust it I still play it probably a bit more than I will in the long run.

    I have however sold some of my collection off which I went from having 2-3 of most ABU duels to having 1-2 of most of them. I got rid of two of my four mana crypts and one of my two mox diamonds so now I guess I am sharing some of the resources between decks which often becomes a question of what I want to field for the week and then moving the resources there. Vamps is still together but some of the resources it shares get moved around meaning its not always immediately ready to be played.

    Having a kid is expensive Frown

    Oh wow, I'm glad I found this deck list. I've been refining my deck for a yearish and this list looks like it's basically where my deck was going to end up. It's actually kind of spooky since you've already gone ahead and removed some of the cards I'm currently planning to replace like Impact Tremors and Metallic Mimic. It's like seeing my own deck but in the future, lol. Also thank you so much for mentioning Yawgmoth, Thran Physician. I wouldn't have thought to try a 4 mana sac outlet but he actually does SO MUCH for the deck.

    I'd like to get some thoughts from everyone on the following cards.
    • Dusk Legion Zealot: Is it just me or is this card actually kind of slow? I'm starting to wonder if the draw 1 is worth a 2 mana 1/1. Certainly slot efficient, but not tempo efficient.
    • Purphoros, God of the Forge: People are really scared of this card, but I'm starting to think it might need to go for the same reason as Impact tremors. Purphoros is a powerful card, but it gets cast so late and has no immediate impact unless you have tons of mana and a full hand. Most of the time this card gets me targeted and killed before it can do much.
    • Stromkirk Condemned: I used to avoid this card like the plague since it seemed like it would just lose me card advantage. Now that the deck is much better at refilling the hand though, it's starting to look like a second Legion Lieutenant.
    • Humble Defector: A different kind of reckless card draw. It doesn't draw immediately but it has gotten me politics points while keeping my hand full. Sometimes it stops working if you are the archenemy.
    • Adaptive Automaton: I originally avoided this card for not being a vampire on cast, but now I'm starting to think that any anthem that gets pumped by my other anthems may be worth including. That is, at least until we get new vampires from Zendikar in 2020.


    Dusk Legion Zealot - its slow from the standpoint that its a 1/1 for 2 with no evasion. That said though, I still like it more than Sign in Blood because it comes with two bodies. Drawing a single card isn't great for this deck but running out of cards is also kind of rough on this deck. If you ever run out of cards to cast without having draw and you draw a one drop vampire they tend to also be a bit poor so I think this one is fine. Its not the best vampire ever but I also haven't really regretted having it in my list.

    Purphoros, God of the Forge I know what you mean when he gets immediately countered / exiled. He just does a lot more than Impact Tremmors and is ultimately a lot more robust. I don't think its wrong if you do or don't run him. He can get a lot of work in and some of it comes down to the question of how much counter magic and or exile removal you encounter in your meta. I suspect that looking at his performance against multiple metas would vary quite a lot.

    Stromkirk Condemned good to know. I have had a few people vouch for him and I have yet to run him myself. I will have to put him in for some testing when I get a chance to run some more vampires in the future.

    Humble Defector how is this better than Sign in Blood? I guess maybe you sacrifice him with his ability on the stack but that still doesn't sound better than several cheap one shot draw effects that we are not running.

    Adaptive Automaton maybe.... I was just so horribly disappointed when I did test Metallic Mimic that I guess I am not exactly excited about the prospect. At some point I will see if I can test it though because a lot of the mimic's downsides were that it needed to be played before a swarm of vampires came in where as this one follows them up better.

    Quote from ArgonathDK »
    @ISBPathfinder

    I know you don't play the deck anymore, and I'm not sure if you are still around, but would very much like your opnions on the following cards, in a low mana curve build.

    Etchings of the Chosen
    Sanguine Bond in combo with Blind Obedience and all the other lifelink.
    Command the dreadhorde and Patriarch's Bidding
    Sorin, Solemn Visitor and Ajani, Adversary of Tyrants


    I am not at a point where I wouldn't play it more so much as that it was mostly where I wanted it to be and I didn't have a lot of cards I felt I needed to test or adjust at the point where I started playing it less. Its a little bit fast as well for my meta for me to regularly play it.

    • Etchings of the Chosen - In general, I think that every non vampire / non land card in this deck has a large question to answer which is.... why run this card over the numerous other options. The amount of room we have for non vamp / non land cards in this deck is a bit narrow and in general you will often have better results pushing up your draw when looking at non vampire / non land effects. When looking at Etchings of the Chosen specifically, I think its just.... ok as an anthem. There are so many 3 mana anthems that part of this card is kind of moot to really look at because there are plenty of others. When you look at it from the stance of a sac outlet and or protection defense my issue is that its expensive to keep up for either. At best, you might be able to protect like..... 1 creature in play consistently but beyond that you are going to stop playing to the board in order to keep protection effects up. Its rather poor as a sac outlet or a protection outlet because this is a go wide strategy and if you wanted to say.... try to kill someone with Blood Artist triggers, it would just cost wayyyyy too much mana to move bodies to do actual damage to the opponent. In a nutshell, I think sweepers are the removal option threat to this deck and this card doesn't help vs sweepers in a meaningful way. I would probably play Icon of Ancestry or Heraldic Banner over this card but I think that the amount of space for non vampires is so low for this deck, I don't actually think that any of the three mana anthems are actually going to compete in a tuned list. If you are looking for budget, I would probably run Icon of Ancestry and or Heraldic Banner before I got to this card at least in testing.
    • Sanguine Bond - honestly, I think this card is bad. It just doesn't do anything unless you assemble the full combo. If you plan to run combos, I think they should involve cards that you would potentially want to run outside of the combo assembling. Those tend to be the best combos. This is a card you really shouldn't ever want outside of the full combo and thats why I have never thought this combo is very good. The full combo with this card costs 10 mana as well and I think both of the cards involved in it are kind of weak cards outside of assembling them together. I am only aware of the combo with it and Exquisite Blood offhand. This combo is also very weak to players scooping for whatever that is worth as it will stop it from continuing which is kind of lame but its also just not that good.
    • Command the dreadhorde / Patriarch's Bidding - My issue with a lot of the mass resurection effects is that they are very subject to what your opponents are doing. What if you encounter Aetherspouts, Aetherize, Cyclonic Rift, Terminus, Hallowed Burial, Merciless Eviction, graveyard hate, etc. My point here being that it is heavily reactionary and based a lot on opponents allowing you to have these effects. Beyond that what if your opponents put up defenses like Moat, Ghostly Prison, Crawlspace instead of wrathing your board? Mass recursion is often very situational and depends on either you filling up your graveyard with threats or opponents to wrath you. I don't like mass recursion in this deck because its very reactionary and situational at that. Having a mass rez effect doesn't help you if you are stairing down an Elesh Norn in play. Due to this, I focus a lot more on drawing cards and tutoring. Tutors can get you some of our best draw effects or a wincon but they can also let you cherry pick a handful of great removal effects to try to get you out of more diverse situations. This deck wants cards that can be proactively played and keep it moving forward and when you run situational cards (like removal) it tends to be best to allow them to interact with a high number of types of cards rather than being slightly more efficient (like Swords to Plowshares) because its not always going to be a creature that forces you to completely brick off and die.
    • Sorin, Solemn Visitor / Ajani, Adversary of Tyrants - Really, it comes right back to what I was talking about with the mass reanimation. These cards are too dependant on opponents doing specific things. When you rez a vampire from graveyard to play you also don't get the free vampire token which is not great for value. Its true that these guys could do some work if you got them out early with sac outlets and just played with them but what happens when you draw them later in the game and are left with this awkward 4 mana maybe rez a threat card? For the most part I don't really buy that we plan to defend planeswalkers given we don't have a ton of flying things we would want to throw under the bus for a walker. I also don't think that either of these walkers pay for themselves the turn they hit play and thats why ultimately I don't see myself playing either.

    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from Vlasiax »
    You might be interested in a little combo that I've found on someone's decklist on tappedout: Phyrexian Altar + Cloudstone Curio + 1 CMC Vampire. In my build I already use Altar as an extender because it let's me cast more 1 CMC Vampires so at least for me adding another artifact might be worth it.


    I usually avoid infinite combos where I can as a principal of how I build. If you start playing combos and tutoring to assemble it then why not just build a combo deck is usually my question. Combos tend to be more efficient than using creature combat so at what point do you question why to play Edgar Markov instead of something a bit more dedicated to combo. That is the sort of question I would ask at least.

    Quote from ArgonathDK »
    Hi @ISBPathfinder

    I can see that you have edited you OP "Last edited by ISBPathfinder: Jul 2, 2019". My guess is that this also concerns the decklist it self?

    Thank you in advance for this great thread. Very helpful Smile


    Yea, I don't play it as much anymore in part because we don't get as many new cards and its a little bit fast for my usual meta. I did manage to play against it a few times this weekend with some friends who were borrowing my decks though. I think I finally have enough testing with a few of my latest changes to comment on a few cards that I probably need to change.

    Judith, the Scourge Diva - essentially my issue has been that she costs too much. She is like a more situational goblin bombardment but she herself isn't a sac outlet but like sort of anthem sort of ping effect. I haven't been happy in the few times I have seen her. I think if she was a vampire herself maybe it would change things but I think she is too situational as she is.

    Pawn of Ulamog - It costs too much and the tokens it makes are colorless mana. Without sac outlets and a payoff for things dying or entering I just felt this was too underhwleming. I would prefer a 1-2 mana threat in most cases instead.

    Falkenrath Aristocrat - I need more draw instead I think. Its a lot to ask for 4 mana for a single vampire especially given that this one isn't that big of a threat so much as just kind of resilient. I don't dislike what it does, it just costs too much and I have seen reason to want to pay one more for a draw outlet instead.

    I won't go through changes right now, mostly because I am lazy but I think those three probably are going to be on their way out.

    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Kess + Adventures
    Quote from WizardMN »
    Kess can cast Instants in the Graveyard since you, basically, look at them as Instants or Sorceries and then see if anything lets you cast them. Normally, this is the normal rules, but Kess allows this as well.

    Toshiro is different since Toshiro targets and they are never instants or sorceries to be targeted in the graveyard.


    Frown the Toshi punish. I guess carry on.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Kess + Adventures
    If you check the gatherer for any of the adventure cards it states that they are creatures in all zones except while on the stack. Adventure cards in graveyards, libraries, exile, or play are only considered creatures. For the purposes of Kess they will never be spells while in graveyard. I asked more or less the same thing for Toshiro Umezawa.

    https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=473052

    First Ruling:
    "An adventurer card is a creature card in every zone except the stack, as well as while on the stack if not cast as an Adventure. Ignore its alternative characteristics in those cases. For example, while it’s in your graveyard, Giant Killer is a white creature card whose converted mana cost is 1. It can’t be the target of the triggered ability of Mystic Sanctuary."
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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