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Treasure Cruisin' Gifts Storm
 
The Role of Ecosystems in Fantasy Worldbuilding
 
Life's Legacy: Delving into Delver
  • posted a message on Memorable decks you wish you created yourself
    I am not sure that I have a lot that I see that I wish I had made myself. There are some that keep hitting my radar that I want to build but never seem to pull the trigger on though...

    Nicol Bolas the only decent original elder dragon. I think his colors are cool too and he is one of the OGs of magic.

    Neheb, the Worthy - he would be a really interesting commander as like a discard / rez deck. He is cheap and it seems likely you could connect him the first turn or two lowering everyone's resources / setting up rez targets for yourself. He also gives a good target to play Sword of the Animist / Dowsing Dagger like cards on.

    Bladewing the Risen - I really like his flavor but I just question the fatty parade of expensive curve that this deck would be. It seems like it would struggle to run very good draw given how expensive most dragons are and even then.... when I did look at it I could only find maybe 10 dragons I was all that happy with. I think as we get more dragons in the future I may look at him again.

    Honestly.... I find myself often not all that surprised by what my opponents create. Its somewhat rare that I see something really innovative that I did not pass over myself or dismiss because I did not like the playstyle.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on What infinite mana combos are there?
    Lock

    Thread is 5 years old. Feel free to spin up a new discussion on this topic but this thread can go back to sleep now.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Breya deck needs some help
    Moved decklist from the commander main to multiplayer commander.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Crucible of Worlds package in mono black
    I played it a while back in my Toshiro Umezawa deck. Some of the questions I guess I would have are.... do you have enough things to make it worthwhile? Back when I ran it I also had Bazaar of Baghdad, fetchlands, and Myriad Landscape which all gave me proactive interactions with the card. I also had some choice lands like Cabal Coffers, Thespian Stage, Vesuva, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx which might take removal from my opponents and it was nice to have that safety net recovery.

    Ultimately if you are just using it for an emergency Cabal Coffers rez, my suggestion is actually to use Yawgmoth's Will instead of Crucible of Worlds because it can function the same but unless you have a LOT of synergy with the card such as really high priority targets + proactive use plans I think I would be hesitant.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Nezahal - Tempo Blue Dino
    Quote from acidfreeze »
    I've been thinking about building Nezahal. It's been a while since I've played big blue. Any updates thus far?

    Also, if you're looking for janky stuff to throw in there, Dragon Wings might be good. It can be discarded to Nezahal's flicker ability, and once it's in the gy it'll trigger whenever Nezahal comes back into play after a flicker, so it just doesn't go away unless someone exiles it.


    I am still a little back and forth on it. Some of this is that I have one set of extra turns (currently in my Kefnet deck). I have been having some issues with Kefnet though just in my own desire to play it considering how grindy of a matchup it can be whenever I bring out Kefnet. There is a very big difference in the playstlye of how I built Kefnet and Nezahal though as I went for more of a draw go approach which I think fits Kefnet a lot better where as I think Nezahal is more of a tempo style of blue play. I have however been very reluctant to play Kefnet and in the end, I think I probably will end up suiting up Nezahal and seeing how it plays in relation.

    My LGS closed down two months ago now and I have not managed to play any magic since then. I am planning to play next week as I have a business trip I will be out on that will bring me back to an old meta of mine. That said I have two new decks already put together and I have not played any of my old decks in over two months either so it seems a little hard pressed to play all of my decks in that trip. I am hoping to play a little more regularly its just proven to be a challenge to figure out how to make that happen.

    Dragon Wings - thats a great idea. I was really struggling to figure out anything else that resembled Wonder and that seems like a great choice.

    DECK CHANGE:
    • Wall of Frost -> Mind Stone my concern offhand is the lack of flying for the wall. I think its interesting but I think getting online faster will do a lot of work for me as well.
    • Vedalken Shackles -> Wayfarer's Bauble I am not really sure why I thought that Shackles really fit here. I think its a fine card but with so much mass sweeping bounce and disruption it feels like it probably does not fit the list all that well. MORE RAMP!
    • Profaner of the Dead -> Dragon Wings my concern with Profaner is that it does not really have a lot of creatures to choose from so it is probably using itself as what goes. My issue I guess is that I just don't think it is flexible enough as it seems like something that will be more or less just for tokens and utility / etb guys that it bounces out.
    • 1 Island -> Minamo, School at Water's Edge it still gives me blue mana but I think the untap effect is relevant to have.

    I do think that Nezahal is really cool. Some of my issue right now is just getting to get in and play games. I did buy a bunch of cards for the deck and I probably have most of what I need now to suit it up so I might put it together soon. I just hope I get to play my decks a bit more sometime soon.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Bruna, the Fading Light - Moat Control

    Azor's Gateway - I don't know. Exiling is rough. I mean it's good early draw and that's great. It just seems a really high cost to pay.


    In every case you are throwing away the least relivant card to the matchup. I think its very strange to worry about exiling cards when you get so much more reach and you get to make so many more decisions in general. What if instead of exiling it, it just put a card on the bottom of your library? We are never going to toolbox / tutor for every card and the cards I am talking about exiling in each case are the cards that are the weakest cards in our hand. What if we draw moats / tabernacle / defensive cards vs a planeswalker deck? In that case we are sitting on some awkward cards. What if we have a hand of wraths but have control of the board? What if we find spot removal vs some sort of wide swarm token deck? In almost every case of commander we have cards that can and will come up in situations that make them less ideal. That is not to say that something like Swords to Plowshares is a bad card or that we would never want to include wrath effects in our decks but there will be times that it is not what you need. You can also chain draw lands at times where you really need action.

    The point I am getting at is that it is far less relevant that we are exiling cards because we get to pick and choose our best cards for any situation and remove the worst card. Its not like I am going to be ditching Moats and Tabernacles as I face down a token deck. We will ultimately have cards that are stronger or weaker depending upon the decks we face and the strength of a card like Azor's Gateway is that it lets us cheaply move our hand to whatever we need in that situation.

    Now, all of that said.... I have not yet played Azor's Gateway. I am more referring to that I think that the reaction that exiling cards is bad is a wrong mentality. This card functions in such a way that it ALWAYS gives you the best hand. If it forced you to exile a card and then draw a card it would be a completely different story but with the exile after the draw your hand should remain the same or improve every time.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Bruna, the Fading Light - Moat Control
    I've finally got around to checking out your list. I'm not stalking your threads, I promise, we just seem to be working on the same stuff. This list looks tidy - how are you finding it running at present? It's clearly a higher budget deck than what I'm running, but I'm always looking for ways to improve the way my decks play. Thus, I have a couple of cards to ask about:

    Dowsing Dagger
    Mask of Memory
    Azor's Gateway
    Magus of the Tabernacle

    I've tossed up MoM here before, as it's good draw and a good way to set up reanimation. The dagger I'm not sure about on account of the plants, but I guess we have flying here so no biggie? Azor's Gateway, I guess when it transforms it could be tremendously good mana, but it's a high threshold to flip. MoT I really like for its nastiness, do you find it hard to hold up enough mana to keep your creatures in play? My main concern with my list is slowing or stopping opponents long enough to get my boardstate to a reasonable level - without Land Tax and a strong landbase I'm usually not flying out of the gates to a quick start, and so I try to run a reasonable amount of grief. I've considered adding Magus of the Tabernacle before, as well as Crackdown.

    Curious to hear your thoughts, thanks ISB!


    Hey no problem. I put them in my signature for myself and others to access them. I have only gotten to run it for maybe 6 to 8 games now. My LGS closed down right before Christmas so I have actually not gotten out to play since then as the next closest thing is an hour drive and they apparently only do games on Friday nights which to be honest by Friday night I do not really want to drive 2 hours for some magic lol.

    Overall thought I have kind of felt like any time I still have the capability to cast Bruna or have her in play I am still doing fine and that is a lot of what fuels how I play it right now. One of my last games was against a Xenagos, God of Revels deck where he managed to Malignus hit me in a situation I was forced to chump block with Bruna. From there the game stretched on with me at very low life total for another several turns. In that time I ended up casting Bruna so many times that I managed to get her up to being like a 9 powered creature via Opal Palace. I managed to stay in that game in part because I had a Dowsing Dagger I had flipped and then I used Thespian Stage on the flipped land of it for a huge boost in my mana production. Angel of Condemnation has so far been potentially the MVP of this deck as I forced that same Xenagos deck to kill it twice and finally stop it via a Chaos Warp. I just love the flexibility that it brings to the deck being an angel that can really be strong on defense. I had one game where I deprived a Zirilan of the Claw deck of the use of his commander for like 3-4 turns via a T3 Angel of Condemnation as he ramped more than me but I went before him and ramped into the angel.

    • Dowsing Dagger - the only real concerns I have about it is if I manage to also get Land Tax, Weathered Wayfarer, or Tithe. That said though, this is mono white and its hardly any sort of guarantee that I will get any specific card. I have had games in which I just go first or my opponents stumble and those effects might fall off as well though. That does not mean that I don't run them though. You could also have an opponent be a green ramp deck and the downside of ramping once or twice might not be an issue. What I love about this card is that Lost Vale is not a legendary land and so you can copy it as well. Almost all of my actual attackers are flyers so I don't think that giving someone plants is really a big concern. I usually try to avoid giving them to anyone who might be a sacrifice based deck but you get to pick where they go so its mostly not an issue.
    • Mask of Memory - this card is sooooooooooo much value. I have actually been using it for a good bit of time now but given how much flying we have I really just send this anywhere that someone does not have a blocker. It has better card advantage than Sword of Fire and Ice and it costs less to drop + equip. The discard can even be helpful in combination with something like Land Tax or to set up a rez potentially so I really love this card. The only real question is if you have something to attack with that you can connect this up with. Given that my commander is a 7 drop I am often looking for something to put this on before my commander comes out. All that said though, getting to see more card draw off of this card and discard after drawing up higher is so much more powerful card advantage than Sword of Fire and Ice. It even sets up for rez effects if you want. Ultimately I would rate this card quite high among a deck that uses evasive creatures (like a bunch of angels).
    • Azor's Gateway - I run this card 90% for the front side of the card because I think that the reality of it is that its not all that likely to flip. This card is very cheap to cast and use and you draw before the exile. While its true that its hard to abuse this card the reality of it is that it is VERY cheap to cast and use and it ALWAYS improves your hand by dropping the worst card. There is essentially never a bad time to use this card because the draw is before the exile and given I am in mono white I have seen plenty of games where I just top deck like 4 lands in a row and sometimes you just don't need something you have been sitting on or sometimes you really need a specific thing you don't have. I have not gotten to play this card yet but for mono white there is a lot of power in cheap filter.
    • Magus of the Tabernacle - being that the commander is so strong vs single attacks it leaves some concern about being swarmed. On a turn to turn basis we don't have that many creatures in play so the maintenance of this card is not so bad because our draw is low and the number of bodies we play tends to be low as well. Don't get me wrong, I think this is just a measure to try to keep people somewhat fair when it comes to tokens but if someone plays a bunch of bodies its really hard to pay for their upkeep and smash a Craterhoof Behemoth in the same turn. I consider this more of a tax to slow them down and or keep their token numbers more fair but it does a fairly good job for me most of the time as it generally requires some sort of infinite loop or Gaea's Cradle to power past this with numbers + follow up.
    • Crackdown - my issue with these effects is that you have to let them swing at least once. My concern for this type of deck tends to be more towards someone playing token swarm, a really heavy value Blue / Black control, infinite combo, or MLD. I don't see much that Crackdown helps vs as it is more of an effect that would stop like a voltron deck from hitting you repeatedly when I think voltron is one of the better matchups for a big fat angel vigilant angel. I am more worried about decks that might come at me really hard in one shot than I am something that is going to fairly hit me repeatedly until I die. In the game I mentioned earlier I almost got one shotted by a single creature with trample / my HP in stats. Crackdown / Meekstone have always been questionable cards to me because they don't stop the first hit from things and opponents get to play arround them in the way that most benefits them.

    I should be able to play some games next week as I am going back to my old meta next week. The problem then becomes that I have sooooooooooooooo many decks that need to get played that its going to be hard to play them all. I did get to get a BUNCH of playtesting with this deck last time I did play which you can see I made a lot of changes at the end of December for this list based on how the deck was doing then. Ultimately as long as I can keep hitting land drops and have the ability to have my commander in play or cast my commander again I feel like I am doing well with this deck. I did end up moving my curve up a little and having a few more big angels after the last time I played this deck as often I just wanted bigger value in what I was rezing.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on What are your thoughts on preemptive deck counter picking?
    I once played a game of Daretti, Scrap Savant vs Ruric Thar, the Unbowed. I can say with confidence that is not something I would ever like to do again lol.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on What are your thoughts on preemptive deck counter picking?
    I personally always pick my deck and place my commander face down so nobody can see what I have chosen. Once everyone has their deck figured out I reveal my commander so that people are not picking their decks based on what I am playing. I have all of my decks sleeved in exactly the same way so you can't tell what I am playing based on my sleeves either.

    NOW, that said... if someone is super hard countered by someone else's commander when both blind picked..... I would probably allow them to change in such a way that was not to counter someone else's strategy. Personally though Jhoira of the Ghitu is a real jack wagon commander though so my sympathy here would be..... so so. I once had an Anafenza, the Foremost deck and I would inform or let my friend who was playing fair Sidisi, Brood Tyrant deck change if I was playing my Anafenza. In this case my deck was a little bit of a mass rezurect deck and while graveyard hate was an element of my commander the goal of the deck was not strictly to counter graveyard based decks so much as to give thign's like Living Death one sided value for me.

    So, back to the situation brought up by the OP, I think I would let him swap because either he accepts that he essentially auto loses, he dismantles / never plays that deck again when the Teferi player sits down, or you just allow him to get out of that specific matchup so long as he moves to a deck that is not somehow countering another strategy.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Daretti - Pyromancer Edition
    I got the deck rebuilt (mostly a few cards in the mail). I am really looking forward to the new treasure producing cards. I was briefly looking at Howl of the Horde this morning. I think its a little awkward given that attacking is not something this deck really wants to do and there is the issue as well that it is a sorcery for my own spells only but beyond that I thought it had some interesting implications. I think ultimately it relies a little too much on a situation in which I can throw out 3+ copies of some big damage spell though as while I think the idea of getting three copies of something like Pirate's Pillage sounds really cool, I think that the setup to get that to work seemed a little too tough for a cool but not broken setup.

    Dowsing Dagger and Sword of the Animist are both things I still think about a little too. I could run Thran Dynamo but it leaves itself out as more of a target for removal where as the dagger flips to being a land which could be useful for Thespian's Stage or Vesuva (if I want to run it). Sword of the Animist seems a little harder to justify because it does want to be attacking constantly which this deck is not really geared for which is why I was kind of circling back and contemplating the dagger.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Ye olde Partial Paris
    My playgroup I was with immediately changed when they changed the rules and we were quite happy with the change. Fast forwarding to 6-8 months ago when I moved to a new meta. They were giving partial Paris one free and I am the new guy so who am I to complain. I have kind of let them have it as I am outnumbered on the mulligan preference but I will say I have a very big issue with the fact that there is a LOT more fast mana starts not to mention that combo players have a MUCH easier time with it. Luckily there isn't a ton of combo in the meta but when someone from out of town steps in it can be really annoying.

    Having played with both I will say it feels a lot better to NOT use partial because it really rewards fast mana and combos. I think that the traditional mulligan strategies forces you to accept a more generic start and it also keeps people from keeping / digging for really specific answers to counter each other in their starts. Overall I would say that it forces better deckbuilding standards and slows the game down a little bit in moving to the new mulligan standards.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build

    I agree regarding Gary. Your devotion is anything but certain, and 3BB is a lot to pay for something that's not a sure thing. Vizkopa yeah I guess is fairly conditional too. It's not necessarily something this deck is built to do, it's merely something that takes advantage of coincidental card choices. And the price of 1BW per activation is a little steep for the deck. Would you consider something like Gruesome Fate instead? Again, it could be winmore and could completely flop. The fact that it takes advantage of your swarm and affects each opponent could make it of reasonable value though. Could be helpful if combat doesn't look favourable.

    Burn at the Stake is pretty explosive. I can't see playing it myself. Sure, you take one opponent out decisively - there's no point playing the card otherwise. It also leaves you open to other opponents though. 2RRR plus tapping your creatures is a difficult cost to stomach to my mind.


    I had already forgotten about Gruesome Fate lol. It is probably stronger given that it hits each opponent even if it is for less it does not tap them and it hits each opponent not to mention being cheaper and easier to cast. I probably wont move to run either of them for now but they make for some interesting thought.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build

    I've been thinking this over too. Really just mulling over the idea, as Malakir Bloodwitch is a strong ETB trigger and it'd be nice to have other variations of this ability at hand that are reasonably priced or on curve. It's not a vampire, but what are your thoughts around Vizkopa Guildmage? If it were a vampire, it'd be a shoe in, but even as is, it does synergize quite well with a lot of the cards you're running here:
    Pros
    -Following Malakir Bloodwitch in the same turn, its second ability will win you the game.
    -Following a sweeper or Goblin Bombardment with Blood Artist or Zulaport Cutthroat in play, its a heavy gouging for your opponents.
    -Early game Serra Ascendant?
    -Swinging with Sanctum Seeker and stacking the second ability.
    -Hasty abilities
    -You can stack the abilities up as a mana sink.
    -Cheap to cast.
    Cons
    -Not a vampire.
    -Mana we'd otherwise use for casting vamps, I guess.

    I think it's worthy of consideration personally, I'll probably try him in my list. This guy could win games out of nowhere.


    I would probably have to try to play Gary in here to have a better feel for it but I often use Malakir Bloodwitch in the 6-10 vamp count range and the fact that it counts for two itself has been fairly huge. Most of the vampires in here are black but I won't get any gary value off of tokens and there are still nonblack cards in this deck that won't count as any devotion. Traditionally Gary is played a little more in reanimator decks where the chance to Corpse Dance loop him or some other terrible thing can occur as well. Overall I guess I feel like 4-5 devotion would be about where he would probably fall more frequently for this deck. In most cases I think its probably still a bit optimistic to assume he might be as strong as Zulaport Cutthroat (who is a 2 drop).

    Vizkopa Guildmage - if it was a vampire I think I would rate it as kind of weak card to include. I think its abilities are ultimately kind of weak for this deck and mostly the only thing I would try to do would be to use the second ability paired with Malakir Bloodwitch. I think that paying an extra three mana on top of Malakir Bloodwitch is already asking a lot which is why I think it would be a little questionable. It would be a 2/2 vamp for BW that lacks evasion and I would primarily treat it as a vanilla vampire 95% of the time. It would be tempting but the times in which it might be good would be winmore and outside of those times its not a very good card.

    Completely unrelated.... I was eying Burn at the Stake as an interesting card in that it offers a very explosive hit to someone's face. It is really hard to interact with as you tap the creatures as part of casting it so there is no real room for any removal other than counterspells or some really niche redirect / protect effect to stop it. The flip side argument though is that it does not interact very well with any of the buffs and it competes in a similar mana slot as the commander and I really don't like this card until you approach or pass 10 creatures in play at which point you can really bully people with a lot of different cards including Edgar Markov. It could be an interesting means to get past a swarm of guys or Propaganda effects but ultimately I think I would still say that its too niche.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from Artaud »
    How about Obelisk of Urd, Homura, Human Ascendant or Dictate of Heliod as personal, permanent boosts (I'm quitting CoA topic for good)? Each has its own merits with the only flaw being a mana cost, mostly for Ad Naus. Obelisk can be cast for cheap (each 1 mana vamp reduces its cost by 2), Dictate can be a combat trick and Homura flips easily given a number of sac outlets we play.

    Speaking of sac outlets, we may also use Rector to cheat enchantments to play. Ranger of Eos may be another way to refill after a Wrath - I would play it over Minions' Murmurs which is only good when we're already winning. Bouncing back after a board wipe is the hardest thing here as we cannot afford to stop overwhelming opponents so there is little time to stop and draw cards when we still have Vamps to cast.


    Obelisk of Urd I actually came somewhat close to testing it once or twice. I guess the question comes down to how much you end up needing to pay for it. I think I might have overly been concerned about the cost when it would come up with Bob or Ad Naus but I think more realistically the big concern with a 6 cost spell is paying 6 mana for it. I think there is a real decent chance that you can probably cast 2 vampires for probably 3-4 mana and then use those plus a little more mana to push this out. Being averse to something cost a lot of mana for me is a lot more about the amount of resource and how much of my turn it takes. I do think that +2/+2 is a solid buff but I think the big question is how much of a turn it really takes. You really don't need blockers all that often with this deck because you are hitting harder than most so using summoning sick creatures and tokens to power out an anthem is something I could totally see. Because of the direction of this build I can totally see a card like this being a lot more impressive than Dictate of Heliod because I think it probably is fairly likely that you could cast 2 creatures + this in a turn. I think that worry about Ad Naus / Bob for how hard they hit us with 6 drops is probably not the end of the world as long as our overall average is still reasonable but more realistic if you have some power draw going a bunch of 6 drops can be very hard to juggle and get cast. I like to ask myself the queston of how cards will look if I am drawing 5-7 cards a turn (kind of my average necropotence with this deck) and in a lot of cases I don't like justifying the mana for big splashy effects. I think this card does get past that in a better way.

    Homura, Human Ascendant - if you can reliably flip this guy.... absolutely run him. I ran him in my first version of the deck and he was really cool but that list also did not swarm nearly as well in that build (but it did have more sac outlets). I found him to bring a huge target on me and if he is hard to flip as well, he just seems clunky to pay 6 to cast out and see how things shape up on their own.

    Dictate of Heliod - It costs a lot of mana and I don't think it does enough. Eldrazi Monument is probably a better card and I think Obelisk of Urd is another card with a lot more potential as well. My big concern with big splashy effects comes back to finding the time to cast them if things are going well. It might be kind of a strange philosophy to go off of how does my deck work when its doing well but with a low curve design like this, the deck probably is not doing so well if you cant find any of your draw so while if you are doing poorly expensive cards might function better... these expensive cards get clogged up and or discarded if you are doing well which I think makes it an odd design decision to run them. I also like to ask myself what if this is in my opening hand or what if I found this type of card in multiple at the same time and ultimately I have moved to a lower curve with cards that I feel have a more positive outcome at all phases of the game rather than come splashy cards that if they land at just the right time they might be good.

    Academy Rector - I ran it in the earlier build as well when I had more sac outlets. Without having more sac outlets though it just doesn't quite do it for me.

    Ranger of Eos - I did the math and the mana to cast it just did not add up. It depends a little on if there are specific one drops that you really want and while I could probably make some arguments that Serra Ascendant / Shadow Alley Denizen and a few other one drops are fairly sweet cards most of the issue is that I can not really justify the 3W for a non vampire creature that really does not fit the gameplan well. It comes down to how much you value any specific vampire but I ultimately decided that I did not value any one specific one drop all that much and that I was more interested in seeing a quantity of cards for as little mana as I could pay than I was in tutoring and toolboxing into the one drop slot. If I valued the body he comes on more or the tutor itself I could see it but as it was I saw him as more of a draw 2 effect for 4 mana. It could work but I just did not see enough cards to hand for the mana he costs which is why I excluded him.

    Minions' Murmurs I have not played with the card myself yet but I think on average, as soon as I can draw 5+ cards with this card I think I am good to pull the trigger. I have not played with it yet myself but like I was saying with Ranger, in most cases I just want sheer numbers of cards. I run tutors to get very specific cards from my deck (usually necropotence and possibly a finisher) but most of the draw in this deck is just interested in throughput of draw given how many cards you draw and how much mana you have to pay to get it.

    Overall I also have some reluctance to add some big splashy buff in part because we always have Edgar Markov in our command zone that could also be used for that exact same thing. Some of these cards might have more impact than casting him but there is also the fact that we always have access to him that gives some amount of consistency that makes me question big 5+ mana non vamp buffs. He is also a snowballing buff in that the longer he sticks the bigger the buff he is going to give and while he might not snowball as big or give as much stats as some of the others, having him in the command zone gives him some consistency that I don't see the need to add competition to that mana spot for. It might be true that if you time one of these effects just right you might have some horrible huge snowball victory but there tend to also be a lot of times that drawing those cards are wrong too and one advantage of relying a little more on Edgar Markov in that slot is that we have the constant access and don't have to draw him at the wrong times.

    Quote from MtG_Maniac »
    Wow ISB, I really do love reading your card analysis. You are very insightful, and sem to have this min-maxing thing down pat! And I have too agree with almost all of your evaluations. I really liked your comparision between Goblin Bombardment and Impact Tremors. I'm currently running both, but have contemplated removing Tremors. I'm pretty much running your low-curve build, with Cloudstone Curio(?), Shared Animosity(!), Stensia Masquerade(!?), Scapegoat(!!), and Mirror Entity(?!).

    I do like the syphon effects of this deck, and have been looking at another RIX card no one has mentioned yet, Tilonalli's Summoner. Yeah, I know, it's not a vampire, and it doesn't do much the turn it comes out; so it's probably crap for this build. But it is cheap and the tokens it can produce (next turn) interact quite well with Purphoros, and various other syphon/sac effects, and even more when Mirror Entity is out. It would seem to be a good recovery card from a board wipe. Our card list is tight, and I'm not thinking this can make the cut, but any comments on this card?

    Also, more importantly, I'm trying to decide if we can work Breath of Fury into this deck. I've used this with great success in other red aggro decks, and dropped with Animosity and just a few 1/1's even without evasion it can be a game ender. A quick basic math calculation with just 6 vanilla 1/1's and Breath/Animosity on board, we generate 138 points of unblocked damage after only 3 attack phases. Especially useful after a board wipe, with many of the syphon/buff/counter/sac options we employ. Your thoughts?

    Oh, and the last card I really would have liked to cram into this deck... Sadistic Hypnotist. To bad he isn't a vampire.


    Thanks, I try to do what I can. This thread explodes so often sometimes its a pain in the ass to keep up with lol. I am always interested to hear how things are working out for others too as in a lot of cases I am just trying to hear what is working / not working with others and see what I can do to make it work better.

    Shared Animosity / Scapegoat - I recently brought Shared Animosity back into my list and I picked up Scapegoat as well after a lot of discussion about it in the thread.

    Cloudstone Curio - I ran it early on but I cut it in part given how mana intensive it is to try to set up and execute in one turn. It felt a little slow to generate its value and I had a hard time hanging on to one drops for a 4+ mana play. Ultimately it seemed bad when I had access to good draw as well because it is a mana sink but it does not play well with also having a lot of cards. In a sense it is sort of like an alternative to having draw in that you can use few cards to generate more bodies without actually drawing into more.

    Stensia Masquerade its ok. Its sort of like Rakish Heir with a little more buffing but it is not a vampire itself and does not come with an extra token. First strike can help vs utility creatures and tokens so I think its ok. It is a little slow to buff but I think ultimately its ok.

    Mirror Entity my biggest issue is that it actively takes mana to be any sort of an anthem. The turn you drop it can be a little mana intensive as well to try to have immediate impact and to buff your creatures as you are already looking at 5+ mana to have a general buff. I cut it because of this as I felt like if I actually was getting a lot of cards flowing it just felt like it was too mana intensive to add up. It has some good potential if you can slow roll it behind a bunch of tokens and keep it for a turn or more but I just felt like it was kind of an all in and wait sort of a creature considering the turn it hits play it actually does not have very good impact. I suppose it comes down to a question of if opponents can answer it or not which is a valid reason to consider running something but I also like having a little more immediate return in most cases which is why I opted to move on from it.

    Tilonalli's Summoner I felt it was a little fragile and had a lot of what if aimed towards it being drawn and played early on. What if you draw into it on turn 6 instead of curving it? It also requires itself to get to attacking to make the tokens so it has a full turn where it is not active and even when it does attack, its very fragile with no natural evasion of its own so in that sense why run it over say Secure the Wastes or Tempt with Vengeance which have less forecast knowledge for opponents and are a little harder to respond to. You open yourself up to a turn where you are forecasting your next move and opponents get a full turn to respond and ready themselves in which they could spot remove or wrath. The question in my mind is in what situation do you see yourself using this card? It is very mana intensive to use the token making ability which does not mesh well with having heavy card draw. It is far better for this type of build to have low cost cards that keep doing things and generating value that do not have a mana cost to maintain them. A good analogy of what I am talking about would be to look at Greed. The effect of this card is something that I really do want but the upfront cost of 3B and then the cost of B for every card I want is too mana intensive. I want to on general draw more cards than I pay mana for as a basis of how much I want to pay per draw. Whenever you are paying mana into an ability that comes away from your ability to play more cards. Necropotence is completely busted in this deck because we can easily move 5 cards a turn with this deck because of our low curve and the fact that it does not require mana per draw is exactly what breaks it for this list.

    Breath of Fury it could work. Lets do a little math quick. I am going to disregard any blockers in this math and assume them all to be 1/1s for simplicity:

    1. 1 Creature: 1 damage
    2. 2 Creatures: 3 damage
    3. 3 Creatures: 6 damage
    4. 4 Creatures: 10 damage
    5. 5 Creatures: 15 damage
    6. 6 Creatures: 21 damage
    7. 7 Creatures: 28 damage
    8. 8 Creatures: 36 damage
    9. 9 Creatures: 45 damage
    10. 10 Creatures: 55 damage

    So, obviously its a little silly to assume that every creature will always be a 1/1 for this math. If you get an anthem creature you probably double those numbers but this is also assuming a lot of things. This assumes that the creature you cast this buff on can connect and that you are not losing these creatures in the attack as well. It requires you to connect to someone every time with the enchanted creature and for the most part for your creatures to not be running into big 6/6 creatures and culling your numbers combat after combat. I don't really like making the "dies to removal" argument but this is a 4 mana aura that requires us to be able to mostly clean swing into people and not eat spot removal, get blocked, or encounter anyone with a maze effect. I have some concerns with the complexity in using this effect because there are so many moving pieces and it just feels like it needs to come up with kind of this perfect storm of situations for it to come through and work.

    Sadistic Hypnotist - Even if he was a vampire, I think the bar is fairly high for 4+ mana cards for this list. If it was a vampire I hesitantly might try to make it work but ultimately I don't know if it is good enough. I think its a cool card but I think it fits better in a more controlling type of token deck and or a deck that cares more about sacrifice.

    Quote from Jund4Life »
    Well, more reports. Minions' Murmurs is fantastic. Being able to dump your hand in the first couple turns and then refill was great. I'm surprised how fast and consistent this deck stays. Golden Demise I've concluded is a meta call. It's good for token/swarm and offing utility creatures. Other than that it should probably go. The only other problem I'm seeing atm is the land base needs some tweeking. Having red or white mana right off or when you need it can be really hard sometimes. I'm currently trying to find what would help alleviate this.

    Elsewise ISB, deck is awesome and runs well. The others love it and hate it all at the same time. And as a sidenote, Necropotence is a kill on sight/counter now. My playgroups realized the power it brings to the deck and are aware I will jam it asap so it has earn a reputation.


    Minions' Murmurs - good to hear. I have not had a chance to play since adding it but it seems like it could do some work.

    Golden Demise - Thanks for the feedback. I might end up cutting it myself. I added Mizzium Mortars kind of early in my build progression and I really have not ever seen it or Golden Demise but I have also gone through a lot of changes since adding it. I will see what I can do about replacing it because I have been hearing several questionable reports on the card.

    Landbase - hummm its interesting to hear. I have not had many issues myself. I guess in the worst case you can always cull some of the utility land and add more fixing. What does your landbase look like out of curiosity? I am just interested in if you have some budget calls on this front or if you are running something similar to mine.

    I am glad to hear that it is working out for you. Necropotence should be kill on sight for most decks but this deck is especially brutal in how it is used.

    Quote from yeti1069 »
    Heh. I had a game a week or two ago where I dealt 34 damage to myself over the course of the game with Necropotence...won at 4 life--I got hit for damage by someone else at the table one time.

    What I've been finding is that in 3-player games, this deck is generally annihilating the table (I've had a few games won turn 6 or 7), but adding that 4th player is just closing me out. Now, I have only had a few games since I added more draw to the deck, so I'm not 100% on this assessment yet, but it does make me a little curious about some of the evaluations I've seen here. Namely, I see a few big effects cards being dismissed as "win more," but I wonder if that's not being hasty. After all, this deck isn't winning with a combo assembled in one turn, and it can go from smashing face to having no board presence and nothing to do after a wrath or two, maybe a counterspell thrown in--I had this exact thing happen to me in a 4-player game. Board got wrathed (I actually have kept Boros Charm as some protection against this), Charmed, then got wrathed by the next player. A turn sequence later, and the angry Omnath deck before me in turn order played out a Greater Good. Seeing that go through, and with no other plays available to me, I put forward Necropotence only for that to eat a counter.

    I've had a few games where I've dropped players fairly low before they stabilized/I ran out of gas, and it seems to me like some of the bigger effects that can double up on what we're already doing for an alpha strike could possibly bump up the win percentage. Now, I'm going to give it a few more games to see how all the added draw effects things, but I'm definitely thinking that the deck could benefit from some of the cards that have been labeled "win more" elsewhere in the thread.


    This deck is very fast and aggressive so it will generally have advantages to less players. I usually try to avoid using this deck when moving to 5+ players at a table because there is a very real fall off given the extra amount of life and additional answers that will be present at the game. I have not had an issue with playing this deck in a 4 player ffa setting though. There are a lot of small decisions to be made with a deck like this given how quickly it is trying to move and to some degree the longer you pilot it the better you will get at making those decisions. Being that we are a fast aggro deck there is definitely some proficiency in mulligans, tutors, and figuring out when to try to make big moves.

    Bigger cost effects - the issue is that it really requires a different mentality in building and playing. The concept of keeping costs low works very well with a high draw presence and moving a lot of cards. Eating a counterspell on necro (or really any draw) hurts probably the most because we need to keep cards moving with this build. To be fair though as well, it seems very odd that a blue player would be ok with Greater Good landing and sticking to the board while keeping counter magic up for the vampire deck. Most of our creatures are very hard to counter because they are cheap and come with free bodies so it seems really suspicious that he would have not moved on Greater Good. I likely would have also read that as an instance where no counter magic was available.

    Let us know how things go if you do try to use some of the bigger cards. I am still leery of them in part because I do have access to Edgar Markov in the higher cost anthem buff area.

    Quote from ctaylor33 »
    Can someone please explain how you use Scapegoat? I am guessing it is wrath protection.

    PS: I have been playing this deck for weeks now (about 90% exactly the same as ISB's list and 10% my own choices) and Metallic Mimic is definitely worth trying.


    Scapegoat - it can be wrath protection but it can also be used for replaying creatures and getting more tokens. What I like is that we have a few more high impact vamps as well as ETB vamps now that it can also allow us to replay their ETB effects. Others have been reporting good things about it and the fact that it costs less to keep up as an option than most other wrath protect effects not to mention having more applications outside of wrath protection made me interested enough to include it in my list.

    Metallic Mimic - thanks for the report I will see if I can work it in. I have been hearing several questionable reports on Golden Demise so I might just swap it in there.

    Quote from DementedKirby »


    Scapegoat is not simply for wrath protection. If you cast it at the end of the turn before yours, and bounce all your cheap, non-token vampires, then you can recast them during your turn for more value. So it serves a double purpose.


    Nodding the Affirmative

    The big reason I am willing to put it in and try it out is that there are more applications beyond defense. Drawing a Boros Charm and keeping the mana up / not seeing a wrath the next few turns can be really frustrating. The card also has very few uses outside of wrath defense and even then its very situational based on opponents using traditional wrath of god effects. What if instead they use Tragic Arrogance, Living Death, or Toxic Deluge for instance? I think there are a good number of strong vamps that if played could be worth protecting and or recovering to retrigger ETB effects as well which I think really pushes this card in a good direction that Boros Charm just has a lot more situational feeling about it.

    DECK CHANGE:

    • Golden Demise -> Metallic Mimic I have not really seen Golden Demise and while I think it could have situations its good its kind of reactive and niche. I still have some doubts towards Metallic Mimic but the concepts behind it could work still and its a proactive card rather than reactive. I am going mostly off of the reports you guys bring in here as to why I am making this swap but I have heard a few reports of Golden Demise being awkward now and the concept behind Metallic Mimic could work.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Sig limits :(
    wow..... I totally did not know that we could shorten them that much. Thanks for the info.
    Posted in: Forum Software Feedback and Bug Reports
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