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  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from BloodyMangus »
    What does everyone think about Fires of Invention? Looks like a one sided red Aluren to me.

    Our spells are cheap and if you are actually pushing good draw I can think of a lot of turns where I cast more than two spells a turn. Good turns backed by draw can often be 4+ spells cast in a turn.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Multiplayer Jori-En Deck
    My own list actually looks fairly similar. My list is a little out of date but its still mostly accurate.

    I have questioned copy spells a few times and ultimately I have decided for the most part not to run them myself. I power my own list using things like Future Sight to chain spells and just get on spellcast value.

    If I have any advice to give, I guess it would be that lowering the curve and running cheaper draw mostly has panned out for me. I see a lot of big splashy spells and walkers which is fine, I just thought I would say don't be afraid to slim down and run harder on turning cards over. Its amazing what a few Future Sight effects with a ton of cantrips can do.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build

    Sorry about the delay, I have been a bit wishy washy with salvation these days.

    Yes, I still kind of like her but she is kind of a slow anthem effect. She doesn't buff the rest of my creatures until she can attack which is a bit slow. I am testing out some new things with the sac outlets which I don't know where I stand on that stance yet but I think she is still a bit of a boarderline lord from the standpoint that she takes time to spin up.

    Quote from jakethewhale »
    What are your thoughts on Embereth Skyblazer as a buff? Unfortunate that it doesn't have haste, but the following turn, it would buff itself to 7 attack, and all your vamps to 4+ attack.

    I can't find a card for that card name. Can you link a card? I suspect you are talking about a new card given that there are several other Embereth cards I see spoiled but I haven't seen that one nor can I find it in the spoilers I visit.

    EDIT: Ohhh ok I see it now its one of the beyond print number for next set cards. Its ultimately a worse Mirror Entity in most cases. I would probably just run that instead.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Jori En - Izzet Cantrips
    Quote from NZB2323 »
    What are your thoughts on these cards for ramp:


    Dockside Extortionist - I think that every game and every meta will give very different results. Obviously if you play against a mono color deck or colorless deck you will see a lot more artifacts and if you play against an enchantress deck the same will happen. I think the faster the meta you play in is, probably the better it gets. It also has a lot of potential as a combo piece if you combine it with say Deadeye Navigator and have it make 3+ treasure. I think in a 75% deck that isn't geared and intending to play with or against dedicated combo, I think it probably isn't that great for me in my build with what I expect to play against. This card is good, and the better and more extreme you want to push your game to probably the better it gets but I think it relies on a lot of assumptions on what your opponents will be doing as well. If you look at it on curve, I think in your average game of commander you will be looking at 0-2 treasure on curve. I think its hard to give a decisive answer on how much value it will give because literally every game and every meta it will perform differently. I own a copy as I bought the precon but as of right now, I don't know that I have plans for a deck that will actually test it. Its going to be a lot better in my opinion in a deck that has 1) Combo outlets for it 2) flicker / copy effects 3) some sort of goblin package with tutors for goblins like Goblin Matron for example.

    Curse of Opulence - Overall, I think its fine but its also one of those things that the later you see it the worse a payoff it will be. Later in the game it becomes harder to casually poke players and the reward for small tempo ramp also decreases. If you can get opponents to give you treasure though it could be fun. Its a little political but its cheap enough I don't see any issue with testing it out.

    Talisman of Creativity - Ramp is fine, this isn't normally a deck I find that I need it but I also don't mind having some ramp. This isn't a deck I feel like I need a lot of ramp for though because most of it isn't accelerating me into my gameplan. Having more mana does make it easier to cast a spell enabler effect and follow up with some spells. Its always a question of what to cut for something like this I guess. I also like ramp that puts lands into play just because artifacts have a tendency to occasionally getting swept.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Jori En - Izzet Cantrips
    Quote from Narglfrob2 »
    Hi everyone, stumbled upon the deck and instantly fell in love! Exactly what I was looking for, a spell-slinger commander that isn't to degenerate / doesn't draws too much hate. I've played one game so far (and won!), look forward to testing more before I make any edits.

    Using the deck currently in the OP as a baseline, what are peoples thoughts on:
    Budget Replacement for Force of Will, would you recommend Pact of Negation or Counterspell? (how important is free?)

    Search of Azcanta, basically rampant growth with suspend, with a little surveiling in between. Seems like this deck really wants the ramp and should be able to flip it easily.

    Submerge, allows you to stop creature combos for zero mana, protect win-cons, and helps trigger Jori. Combine with Portent or Ray of Erasure (to shuffle / bin their creature after putting it on top) for maximum style points.

    Anyways, thanks for maintaining this list, its fantastic!

    Yea, unfortunately I haven't been maintaining my salvation lists much anymore as I have mostly made the move to nexus. I haven't gotten everything updated and ported over there though so this one is a little bit outdated.

    Force of Will - Force of Negation would be my preferred but Pact of Negation seems fine I suppose. I have been doing some testing with Force of Negation in addition to Force of Will of late. Pact seems..... fine I just really don't want to pay that 5 mana off later really which would put me very hesitant to use it and ultimately I think Force of Negation is superior for this deck as I really don't intend to defend my own position with it (aka cast it on my turn).

    Search for Azcanta - Originally I was hesitant because the activated ability isn't great on the flipped side but yea, as ramp I agree its nice and technically its a mana dump for if you brick off. I have since added it to my list intending to use it as a scry / ramp option.

    Submerge - I think it can still be situational. Its true that green is popular but my thought process is along the lines of...... man that would be such a bad card if you can't alt cast it. Vs non combo decks it can also be unfortunate in that you only tempo disabling them instead of killing a problem.

    Glad you like it, my list still mostly resembles the OP but its a bit out of date. I still need to bring a few of my lists to nexus :/

    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    I imagine Contamination would work fairly well. It's really not the type of card I am going to play myself but if you are going all out then I think its probably something that would work given the number of black vampires and free tokens we get.

    My issue with this though is that it quickly gets into a question of what level of deck this is. If you want to play against infinite combo decks which is generally speaking where I would consider land locking people I think vampires is still a bit tricky to play given its a combat based concept. Almost any combat based deck tends to be slower to kill multiple 40 life opponents than combo can go.

    I have always sort of seen Edgar Vampires as a fast combat oriented deck that is good against other combat / control / ramp based strategies in this game and possibly some untuned combo decks. If you want to go all out then its only fair to question how things look vs all out combo decks and I think vampires are a bit slow still on that axis. I sort of take a thought process of not using tactics I don't want done to me.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    ISBPathfinder, how has Obelisk of Urd been performing? I am playing Mirror Entity in its place.

    The only other change is I cut Vampire Lacerator. I used that slot to test out Scapegoat though I have yet to cast it. I think Vampire Lacerator is bad and I don't like having to remember a trigger for a bad card.

    I gave the War of the Spark and M2O changes a test today. I really like the direction you are taking the deck. How has the new aristocrat playline been performing for you?

    I don't play this deck a ton because most of the time this deck is a little excessive for my meta. I did a bit of testing right after adding some of the sac outlets in but so far the only thing I can really say is that Yawgmoth seems insane with a bunch of cheap bodies. I still don't have all that much testing into Obelisk of Urd so its still hard for me to really say much about it.

    There are definitely decks in the meta I don't feel bad playing this against, its more that my opponents often don't say anything when they are stepping up to decks that I would normally want to play this against them. I played this deck a few times against an Urza combo / stasis deck and it felt fairly good there but while he was kind of going all out I don't think he had that great of a list outside of having key notable cards.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from NZB2323 »
    What’s everyone’s thoughts on Idol of Oblivion?

    It looks probably good. I for sure want to give it some testing. Its not a ton of draw but the fact that its only an upfront two mana cost and anytime we cast a vampire we can throw in a free draw puts it fairly high in my book for testing.

    Quote from Kangodo »
    It's going to replace my mentor of the meek for sure.

    I also like the new Chainer, giving your creatures haste is really good. Not sure if I want it.
    Gift of Doom can be played early and I can sac a token to attach it to Edgar.

    Chainer is also interesting. It kind of lets us wildcard our way into our best creatures repeatedly. I am just not sure about the fact that its a 4 cost non vampire really.

    Quote from BloodyMangus »
    I think Chainer, Nightmare Adept is interesting as some sort of recursion engine you play after a wrath. Would be fun to test although it's probably a little too slow for this deck.

    On a fun side note, chainer will give haste to all the vamps that are cast through Bolas's Citadel.

    Cool interaction, I agree though that he is probably a bit slow for the deck. If someone does test him let us know how it goes.

    Quote from jakethewhale »
    Have you considered Bedlam? Other than lacking indestructible, it seems like a better Iroas. Unconditional evasion for your entire board, and there isn't really a downside since we would ideally be swinging with our whole board anyway. Five-Alarm Fire seems maybe too cute, but it can snowball pretty hard.

    Bedlam interesting suggestion. I guess the question is if you can win an all out race. Vampires can chump fairly well in the mid game thanks to the free tokens. If you are confident that you can win races then I guess yea it sounds interesting. Some of the pay life for draw mechanics might be a little concerning paired with it assuming an opponent also has an aggressive deck. I feel like it might vary a bit based on what you play against and the meta you play in.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Commander Forum Helpdesk and Announcements
    Its an automation that looks at accounts with low posts due to how bots usually are new accounts. A moderator should be able to mark it as not spam. It was a precaution that was taken out to minimize the impact of bots but now and then it hits low post accounts like yours.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from BloodyMangus »
    What is everyone's opinion on Anje Falkenrath and Anje's Ravager?

    Really I think the real question is going to be how much madness support does vampires as a whole get from this set as a whole. I don't really expect that I would just casually add either of those into my existing build but its possible that a madness subtheme takes off to the extent that going further into that as a focus within edgar could become possible. The biggest challange in my mind is that you need enough good enablers to discard to while still being on theme as well as having the payoff to go there. Olivia, Mobilized for War for instance is a good start on having discard outlets but in my mind we need SEVERAL good ones yet otherwise you have to resort to running things like Faithless Looting and Wild Guess to have the discard outlets to do this.

    Overall, I don't really foresee it coming together enough that I would really see it working out well for a build within Edgar. Thats just my own personal thought given its unlikely we see more than 10 or so new cards designed for the RB deck. I forget how many cards as a whole they make for these products but I want to say its usually something like 50 new cards and there is always some level of complete nonsense cards that aren't playable like curses or whatever they pack in. For madness vampires to work within the shell of edgar we probably need 3-5 more filter outlets as well as additional payoff cards that matter enough to be played.

    I do think that Anje Falkenrath is decent and reasonable as a commander and in the 99 of some decks. The problem is that this deck is so fast and she is more of a utility vampire than something to help the tribe or add to an aggressive strategy. I think she actually plays better towards a control or reanimation strategy than she does an aggressive build which is why I don't think she has all that great of synergy here.

    Anje's Ravager I guess maybe he has a shot. It is draw on a vampire and his size is decent. I guess I wouldn't write him off but I do have a lot of expectations of anything that costs three or more for vampires and he is a bit slow to get started given he needs to attack. Technically he plays into the idea of madness vampires further too. I still think we need more discard friendly vamps to go further into that plan but as some sort of weird draw..... I guess he is ok. I am still far from blown away given its a three mana vampire with a somewhat slow effect but I think its likely that most of the time that he triggers it will probably be fairly profitable to do so.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from Vlasiax »

    A little noob question here but isn't including too many 4-6 CMC cards too risky with Ad Nauseam or in colors without proper ramp or even time to do it in case of aggresive decks? How do you usually go for Necro/Ad Naus draws?

    So we can count Yawgmoth as a sac outlet and a little more complicated Necropotence?

    Also I'd love to know how's been Judith, the Scourge Diva performing with some more playtesting. Is she worth including as a pseudo-lord or ping effect?

    And last thing - I see you've removed Swords to Plowshares, does it interrupt the aggro plan or are you giving up on having too much reactive cards to focus more on a theme and gameplan?

    Ad Nausium - my usual plan is to draw something like 5-10 cards. I don't worry too much about having some 4-6 mana spells so much as what the average mana cost is. As long as the average mana cost is reasonable its not that often that you rip back to back 6s. I haven't actually calculated the average lately but the last time I did it was something like 1.5 mana per card flipped which is fine. The goal for this card in this deck is usually give you another hand of action and then a bit. The upside of this card being instant is that you can kind of have two hands ready. It sucks that it costs 5 but you can get past discard being that it is an instant so its kind of good for two hands of action. I really doubt you would ever be going deeper than 15 cards or so with it but depending on what you are flipping and how much the damage is adding up its possible.

    Necropotence - Always draw up a new hand. I usually shoot for filling my hand to 8 or 9 cards personally as you really just want a single land for the next turn so duplicate land draws are easy to pitch the excess. If you draw a bunch of 4+ mana cards its also not a big deal to ditch some of those as when you have necro the plan is usually to full turn over your hand turn after turn. I usually try to keep a backup draw in my hand when I can but with necro you can usually burn to draw more cards even if it is answered.

    Yawgmoth - Honestly, in my very limited testing so far, I think Yawgmoth is my second favorite draw option only behind necro. The board control he gives is REALLY nice. It does put you back a little to do drawing with him but he totally throws combat math out the window which is really nice.

    Judith, the Scourge Diva - I still haven't seen her at all to do any testing. I am not sure one way or another. I like putting cards through testing to verify one way or another though so I am far from certain any way or another. I only know on Yawgmoth because I happened to draw him in a game recently and he became the only thing in play that mattered.

    Swords to Plowshares - I am running a very proactive low responses sort of deck. Swords is a great card but my issue with it is how narrow of an answer it is. Due to that I have opted to run more versatile answers over narrow tempo answers. Don't get me wrong there will be situations where swords can and will shine but with so little removal in my list there can be a lot of things that can really shut a deck down. For instance if someone were to cast Night of Souls' Betrayal (not super standard by any means) it would probably completely wreck us until we got anthems online or answered it. That's a very niche situation of course but there are a lot of problematic types of permanents other than just creatures and so my answer with low removal in the list is usually to have more versatile removal rather than cheaper tempo removal. This is the kind of deck that really only tends to care about things that make it full break so you really shouldn't ever need to be answering value creatures because the answer is to try to murder people before those matter. If you play against a lot of infinite combo decks then it sort of changes the math on this philosophy because I avoid running these because I encounter very little of that in my meta but if decks speed up and plan to win fast via combo then you might need more cheap disruption like this.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Speculation for Return to Theros
    I did take the printing of Starfield Mystic as a likely indicator that they intended to do an enchantment themed block in the next year. The current standard environment just doesn't seem to have any room to support this card leading me to thinking that it was likely a print for the future year's blocks.

    As a side note, if we do see a return to theros its possible that we see a jump in enchantment supporting commander legal cards such as Serra's Sanctum. I believe we saw a jump in these cards when they originally did Theros as back then Sanctum had been a card that could be bought for $30ish.
    Posted in: Baseless Speculation
  • posted a message on Thanks to Cryogen
    Quote from schweinefett »
    ...is there a hidden story behind cryogen and library?

    I believe cryogen owns a copy and is an advocate of unbanning it in commander. His support for unbanning Recurring Nightmare is a bit more known though.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    Quote from Drain Life »
    I have added my deck to Aether Hub. It has a nice visual presentation and I like the user interface. My "maybeboard" is just a list of the 31 cards where my deck differs from what you have posted thus far. You can find it here.

    I have become more interested in that (now old) "75%" philosophy for deck building.

    Apart from my lack of fast tutors, fast mana rocks, and going full tribal, I wanted to talk about a few cards:

    I do not own this. I doubt that I ever will. What would you suggest as a replacement? I see that you have cut both Cover of Darkness and Dolmen Gate from your list. Would either of those be a suitable replacement for the foreseeable future, or would something else like Brave the Sands? Maybe something else entirely?

    Fire Covenant
    I have printed a proxy, and like Reconnaissance, I highly doubt I will ever own this card, at least not any time soon. I do not think there is anything else remotely like this card in magic. We have to pay Kindred Dominance and Plague Wind mana costs to have such one sided effects. Even Toxic Deluge kills our creatures at the same cost and life.

    I havetwo of these. I know how amazing it is. It is so good that it is generally seen as too good. As a result, I have taken it out of my deck. I currently am using Dark Prophecy. If Necropotence were banned, what would you replace it with? I only chose Dark Prophecy because it is a triple black enchantment that feeds Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, works well with sacrifice outlets, and can even refill my hand at a a 2-to-1 ratio against a board wipe.

    Because i want to play more of a 75% style, do you agree with my burst draw replacements? Ambition's Cost, Ancient Craving, and Painful Truths for example? Any other ideas or recommendations?


    I am obviously not asking why you are playing those cards, but rather what I can do to live without them. Fast mana and fast tutors are my choice for power reasons, but Reconnaissance and Fire Covenant have me stumped.

    I have never really been great at suggesting budget replacement cards. Generally speaking the best option is just to run good cards rather than trying to direct replace cards. I don't think that its wrong to try out and see what your preference is for evasion effects. In the end I just found that Recon was the effect that personally worked for me being in part due to the cheap cost and ability to be offensive and defensive. I think that Dolmen Gate is probably still reasonable and not something that I would say I got the chance to sufficiently test.

    All this said, I don't think there is ever a problem just jamming more vampires and draw in the list. Its possible to pick up some more equipment and go the direction of equipment tutoring using a little more reliance on Skullclamp (not sure what your plans are entirely with tutors). I recently shifted back towards some sacrifice effects and am still testing that but if you do run some more sac effects, Heirloom Blade might be an interesting equipment to test further which would also go further to adding more equipment tutors (assuming you want equip tutors). In general, I would just add more cheap vampires and draw. I don't overly like the draw 2-3 card effects for this deck myself but if I were going to run them I would probably run Painful Truths and then move to the draw 2 like Night's Whisper and Sign in Blood. Read the Bones is also in my mind better than the 4 mana draw 3 effects.

    In my mind, 75% commander has nothing to do with tutors. 75% commander has everything to do with being optimal which comes down to CEDH. In my mind a 100% deck plans to combo win in the first 1-6 turns or deprive opponents of resources to play like lands. Any deck relying on combat and not making infinite tokens or something of the sort to win is already 75% because they are using less optimal means to win. With many cEDH decks, the number of opponents has nothing to do with how many turns it will take for you to win if not interrupted.

    I also think that 75% commander means many different things to different people though. I have always considered 75% commander to be hindering itself to not being tuned combo (aka the most efficient way of winning). To be honest though I really only heard of 75% commander maybe six months ago lol.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Edgar Markov - Low Mana Curve Build
    I am planning to transition most of my decks over to MTGNexus shortly but I have been slow in doing so. I just wanted to comment that I managed to do a little testing yesterday and I wanted to say that Yawgmoth was freaking amazing. Getting board control, a sac outlet, and draw all in one effect is really sweet. He throws off combat math entirely and so far, my experience has been all positive for him in this deck. It felt like as soon as I got him, I was in full control of the board moving forward.

    I happened to have also gotten Cordial Vampire in play at the same time. It was good with a sac outlet for sure. The game spiraled out of control quickly as my vamps spun up in size while drawing and killing my opponents creatures.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
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