Why do people do this? Are they ignorant of what Nm condition means? Are they gambling that the recipient won't mind?
I suspect it's a combination of both. Most of what I go for is under 100pp (I would be too upset for it to be worth my time if I went for bigger cards that came in poor shape) but I still get my fair share of played, bent, warped, you-name-it cards. Even though I'm dealing mostly with bulk (coming and going), it's still irritating for people to ignore the most basic PucaTrade rules. I recently had a sender from South America send me foreign language cards and thought it was okay because I specifically didn't say "English only" in my profile. WTF? The admins have been good to me, if slow, in resolving these issues.
I've had my share of people upset with me, too. I've had a few people accept cards they said weren't in NM condition, only to find that they blocked me after sending a PM, so there was no way for me to resolve the issue. I've got 30k+ cards listed on PucaTrade, so it's inevitable that some will slip by, but I tend to refund them the points, or often if I notice it's <NM before shipping, I cancel the card and tell them to keep it. I've got someone who opened some cases against me because I didn't send MINT cards like his profile said. Um, I don't think I need to read your profile as part of PucaTrade's policies. I haven't replied to that one yet, as I don't quite know what to make of it.
Getting a card in a different language could be irritating as well, especially if it's from a foreign country. I've only received cards from one person in Europe. They were all in English and NM shape, so it was a good experience. I've been taking in a lot of bulk cards recently (a secret commander project ... not really, just some junk decks I'm planning). I haven't had as much trouble with receiving non-NM bulk cards as with the higher value cards. The most recent offenders are as follows: Kozilek with nail scratches and damage along the top and left edge, a very cloudy foil Restoration Angel, a bent Karn planeswalker, and a Sunken Hollow that has had the black sharpie "fixing treatment" on the top edge (yup, this is the BFZ card).
If you are quick to refund non-NM cards, then you're one of the honest ones. I would absolutely do the same, but I've never had to. I've sent out about 300 or so cards and have never received a complaint. There have been times when I wasn't sure if the card I am sending out is truly NM. I would send the receiver a message with pictures. Then I would let him / her know that I would welcome a refund request if the card is not up to par. Everyone I've done this with has been happy to receive my card.
A guy from my play group also does pucatrade. He has written on his profile something along the lines of "if Starcitygames won't accept your card as NM, then I won't either." In theory, everyone should be following that guideline.
Thanks for the replies. I think we'll just try to play without him. Hopefully that will get the message across.
I think we were sort of star-struck by the cards to really be mean to him about it - hope that makes sense.
This store has a pretty good selection of all kinds of cards. I think it's kind of overkill because those cards seem to stay there forever. Probably from the owner's personal collection.
Edit:
By the way, Tinker into Memory Jar with Mind over Matter and Blue Sun Zenith is pretty cool to watch (but absolutely evil).
Just bought the new black white commander deck. My local store isn't very commander heavy. There are a handful of people who play; it's more common to see 1 on 1 matches. On that particular night, there were 5 commander players, so I thought it would be an awesome first game with my new deck.
The only time he lost was when 3 of the other players brought in decks with blue cards to stop him. When he was eliminated, we called a "coalition victory." And we needed that, because it was clear that we weren't having much fun watching the blue white deck win repeatedly. He told the group that he doesn't respect the banned list. He added that we all have the ability to get those cards, so banning them makes no sense. He even pointed to a few of them in the store's display case, which I found to be a rather annoying gesture.
So knowing that we have a small commander community, I'll probably end up playing with him in a game in the future. Is there a way to politely tell him that we would like for him to play a fairer deck?
lmgio34 I'm just curious what kind of cards are you going for? I've received over 150 cards and never had an issue, but I am just trading the modern card pool.
I would say the older the cards the more risk you run of running into that kind of problem. Also if you get an administrator involved you can definitely get your postage taken care of.
Mostly stuff from Lorwyn through Theros blocks. I received some Urza's block rares that had some very minor imperfections on the back (but with otherwise NM-like surfaces and edges), and I didn't mind because those cards are over 15 years old. But stuff from Lorwyn block should not look like they've been repeatedly played without sleeves.
I've tried getting administrators involved. They just ignore my requests. I think it's because I'm a non-paying member.
Is it better to keep expeditions or revised dual lands for the long term? Ive been offered some duals in pretty good condition for a combination of my expedition lands and khans fetch lands.
I thought it would be best to post here than to start a new thread.
I want to enjoy the pucatrade experience, but it is really difficult to do that when so many people do not follow the rules. I only send out NM cards. I would contact and give pictures of cards that I consider to be less than NM (each time the recipient has said that the condition is acceptable as Nm). I use the pucatrade and starcity games guidlines. I have never received a complaint about cards Ive sent out.
On the other hand, of the cards Ive received from people, I would say that 75 percent of them are not NM. Some are simply slightly damaged here and there. But most are quite blatant. We're talking bent cards, cards with grimy and sticky surfaces, cards dented by finger nails or sharp objects, cards with pencil or pen marks, cards that had their borders colored by black sharpie pens, and a combination of the above. I am returning each one, but the cost of time and postage is just unacceptable.
Why do people do this? Are they ignorant of what Nm condition means? Are they gambling that the recipient won't mind?
I think some people just don't closely inspect their cards, I dealt with that a lot when I was still at a local shop that I owned/ran the magic singles collection for. I had to reject or discount what I could offer on a lot of what people brought in due to various amount of issues with the cards that many people just simply didn't catch (or that they would buy from other shops that were supposed to be NM but found out when they tried to trade/sell them to me, were not after I pointed out the issues with the cards). There are also a lot of people that, as you said, are simply hoping that the recipient wont notice or care that they have some minor issues with them.
Sending bent, water damaged, or other more blatant signs of damage is just terrible, I don't use pucatrade, but I would hope they have some form of 3 strikes and your banned/suspended rule for such people. I am curious though, when it comes to returns that have been clearly pointed out that the cards were received damaged, does the sender have to compensate for the return shipping (with tracking?) If not, then I would call that system flawed.
Inevitably though different people tend to view "NM" in different ways. Getting EX cards that people label as NM is quite common, as they view "NM" as being "near" mint, which to them means it can have a few flaws and still be fine. The other thing is that people will open cards from packs, and believe that if they are straight from packs, that they should automatically be NM/M no matter what (which to be honest, is dead wrong), quality control issues to come up, and though most cards opened from packs will be NM/M and good to go, there are still a good amount that can end up having various issues with them.
Pucatrade is a great place and is a great way to trade in cards you don't need for ones you do, but yeah, unfortunately things like condition and other flaws can certainly make the experience less than fun for those making use of it.
Good to hear from you regarding this topic.
To answer your questions ... Pucatrade does not have a feedback system. And pucatrade doesnt have a system for refunding postage either. When I get a card that is clearly not Nm, I send a message to the sender. Interestingly, none has argued with me regarding condition. Theyve all requested that I take the card for a fraction discounted. I say no and then agree to send the card back for a full points refund. Some senders have sent points back for postage. Others dont. I dont bother with the postage because it is small compared to the cost of the cards (each between 5 and 20 dollars).
I can see why a store would want to avoid pucatrade. The trouble of having to deal with such a high percentage of non nm condition cards is just another headache on top of keeping the lights on. And there are no safeguards against fraud. One of the senders a Nm card can simply say that I never sent the card, and I would be out my points and the card. And before anyone chimes in about adding confirmation to the shippinng ... I dont want to spend the extra 3 dollars and 30 minutes in line at the post office to do that. I am sure most people wouldnt either.
To the honest people on pucatrade .. You guys are awesome!! I send messages to the senders of every sucessful trade. You know who you are.
I want to enjoy the pucatrade experience, but it is really difficult to do that when so many people do not follow the rules. I only send out NM cards. I would contact and give pictures of cards that I consider to be less than NM (each time the recipient has said that the condition is acceptable as Nm). I use the pucatrade and starcity games guidlines. I have never received a complaint about cards Ive sent out.
On the other hand, of the cards Ive received from people, I would say that 75 percent of them are not NM. Some are simply slightly damaged here and there. But most are quite blatant. We're talking bent cards, cards with grimy and sticky surfaces, cards dented by finger nails or sharp objects, cards with pencil or pen marks, cards that had their borders colored by black sharpie pens, and a combination of the above. I am returning each one, but the cost of time and postage is just unacceptable.
Why do people do this? Are they ignorant of what Nm condition means? Are they gambling that the recipient won't mind?
Why not just use the wow tcg mana rules? Every card in your hand can be placed face down as a colorless land. This almost completely removes mana screw. And it would cut down the number of lands a deck needs. Ie instead of the usual 22 spells 18 lands for a limited deck, you could run 27 spells 13 lands.
Yes. You could even have it where you have to reveal it IF you want a colored mana and just take a note of which land is which. To be honest they could even implement that right now. They would just need to maybe adjust the deck minimum?
I have a feeling this would push it too far in the other direction. Ie. imagine revealing a skarrg guildmage and then placing it face down as a "free" taiga.
Anyway, I think the colorness option would not be too game-breaking. If you do this too many times, you'll lose playable cards in your hand. Maybe there are artifact decks that could really pounce on this advantage, but I haven't seen any format dominating artifact decks, and I doubt that this change will push any to the absurdity of Splinter Twin.
Why not just use the wow tcg mana rules? Every card in your hand can be placed face down as a colorless land. This almost completely removes mana screw. And it would cut down the number of lands a deck needs. Ie instead of the usual 22 spells 18 lands for a limited deck, you could run 27 spells 13 lands.
I do agree that feminism was needed at one point in our history. But that time has passed. It's no longer needed now. As such, much of the feminism we see today are radical.
At one point in time, Italian immigrants were discriminated against in this country. I'd be laughed at for days if I were to start a group that demands equal rights / pay / status for Italian Americans.
Come on, man. This is an absurd example. Italian Americans (like myself) make the same as everyone else. It's verifiable that women don't make the same as other groups, even when controlling for leave used.
Most of the feminism we 'see' today are random people on the internet or in real life. Let's not kid ourselves, none of you are talking about the leaders of women's rights organizations. The only reason you remember these women in particular is because they were obnoxious, but you're all equating your anecdotal evidence with reality. The reality is there are tons of women who would identify as 'feminist', but they're not obnoxious about it and they don't give a damn about Slave Leia's outfit.
There are ongoing gender disparity issues that still require feminism. Maybe they're not as obvious as sufferage, but the 'biological difference' as an explanation is bull*****. That's how people used to dismiss women because of their 'delicate constitutions'.
The US Military just opened up all combat roles for women. Why? Because when they finally put women through the training, they discovered that (SURPRISE!) physical differences are a spectrum, and if they're letting in guys on the low end of the spectrum there is no reason not to let in women who can meet the same criteria. The problem is that the assumption was always that women can't do it. These are the kinds of things feminism is still important for, just like civil rights still matter.
Sorry I don't know how to respond to set the quotes so that it looks like I'm responding to one quote at a time.
The commonly used 77 cents per each dollar is a myth. A quick search online will show plenty of evidence. Christina Hoff Sommers has a very good video about this on youtube. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links here, so I'll refrain from doing so.
You are absolutely right about the slave outfit. I am a woman and I don't care about it. I actually think it was used appropriately. Had she been in a full set of rebel armor, the scene would have looked ridiculous.
The biological differences are very real. I was a decent athlete in high school. But there was no way that I could compete even with the "low end of the spectrum" members of the boys basketball team. We were at a disadvantage in both height and weight. I have heard about the military issue. I'm sure there are some super athletic in shape women who can cut it with the Army Rangers (ie Commander Jane Shepard!!!), but the average female Ranger will never match up well with the average male Ranger. This is what I meant by biological differences. You can't have the mens' sports teams compete against womens' sports teams - assuming equally ranked (that means high school vs high school; college vs college; etc) in anything other than a super friendly all star game event. The mens team will win every time.
I also mentioned the accomplishments section as a break from the biological differences. I work in medicine, and I don't consider myself at a disadvantage due to gender. In my training, I have been on teams where I felt like I was doing a better job than my male peers, and I have been on the opposite of that - where my peers were clearly doing a better job than me. Biological differences would not account for any of those. This is where all that matter are the individual's talents, determination to learn and get better, and willingness to put in the hours required to achieve something.
@Imgio34 I think your first statement is wrong. Radical feminism is unnecessary and dangerous, but the reasonable feminism isn't. You're making a massive generalisation about a movement that has been around for decades, and using it to make the statement that it isn't necessary.
I do agree that feminism was needed at one point in our history. But that time has passed. It's no longer needed now. As such, much of the feminism we see today are radical.
At one point in time, Italian immigrants were discriminated against in this country. I'd be laughed at for days if I were to start a group that demands equal rights / pay / status for Italian Americans.
Feminism is unnecessary and dangerous. It's unnecessary because I honestly see very little disparity between sexes that isn't caused by biology or accomplishments. If a male physician earns more than a female waitress, are we going to call the man a sexist who needs his salary slashed to support the woman? If a female model earns more than a male policeman, are we going to say that the buyers of the model's magazine are sexist and should instead buy magazines featuring the man instead? These examples are due to biological differences or specific accomplishments of the individuals.
Feminism is dangerous because it tries to brainwash the public, especially young women, that women are natural born victims. I have seen this in some of my peers and friends while growing up. They'd complain about not being taken seriously or not getting the same opportunities while not being willing to put in the work. I remember a girl in my Biochem class complaining that the prof (a male) didn't like female students and would thus grade them more harshly. I did fine in that class. As did the female students I knew who put in the hours to study for it. This particular girl who complained was the type to come to lab totally unprepared and would then try to befriend the high-achieving male students to give her "help." She tried to make it subtle, but we all saw it.
I'd like to get a real Feminist's take on the example above. On the one hand, Feminism would agree that she's a girl and thus would need extra help to be on an even playing field with the others because Biochem naturally favors males or something. On the other hand, Feminism would say that using her feminine-ness is wrong because that's bowing to patriarchy.
Regarding Leia .. whether it's necessary or not is irrelevant. I like the way it was shown. The way she's dressed is no different from how some shows feature a dangerous stripper doing something bad that's important to the plot. Feminists will find a way to make any female video game character a poster-girl for sexism. Heck, they'd probably find some way to make my Jane Shepard character appear to be sexist as well.
Sorry for the rant. Hope it all makes sense.
EDIT:
PS. Ashiok, a word of advice. Don't waste your time or energy arguing with a feminist. Most of them are too brain washed to listen to reason. They will continue to believe that they're victims and need special treatment no matter what you tell them.
This is just anecdotal / sampling bias, but I remember my supervisors (at a video game store during my high school days) telling me not to charge tax when a customer would pay with store credit. We also didnt charge tax when people redeemed free pepsi products with winning bottle caps.
My local store does this as well. They also do some other things with store credit that I find distasteful. For example, if you buy a box with cash, you pay about 110. If you buy a box with store credit, you pay the full msrp (~143.00). And if the store has discounts on cards, you cant take advantage of the discounts with store credit; you pay the non discounted price.
I dont accumulate store very much store credit, so these policies dont bother me much. Not sure if other stores around the country do these things as well.
Getting a card in a different language could be irritating as well, especially if it's from a foreign country. I've only received cards from one person in Europe. They were all in English and NM shape, so it was a good experience. I've been taking in a lot of bulk cards recently (a secret commander project ... not really, just some junk decks I'm planning). I haven't had as much trouble with receiving non-NM bulk cards as with the higher value cards. The most recent offenders are as follows: Kozilek with nail scratches and damage along the top and left edge, a very cloudy foil Restoration Angel, a bent Karn planeswalker, and a Sunken Hollow that has had the black sharpie "fixing treatment" on the top edge (yup, this is the BFZ card).
If you are quick to refund non-NM cards, then you're one of the honest ones. I would absolutely do the same, but I've never had to. I've sent out about 300 or so cards and have never received a complaint. There have been times when I wasn't sure if the card I am sending out is truly NM. I would send the receiver a message with pictures. Then I would let him / her know that I would welcome a refund request if the card is not up to par. Everyone I've done this with has been happy to receive my card.
A guy from my play group also does pucatrade. He has written on his profile something along the lines of "if Starcitygames won't accept your card as NM, then I won't either." In theory, everyone should be following that guideline.
I think we were sort of star-struck by the cards to really be mean to him about it - hope that makes sense.
This store has a pretty good selection of all kinds of cards. I think it's kind of overkill because those cards seem to stay there forever. Probably from the owner's personal collection.
Edit:
By the way, Tinker into Memory Jar with Mind over Matter and Blue Sun Zenith is pretty cool to watch (but absolutely evil).
So here's what happened. One player was running a Grand Arbiter Augustin IV deck. The game ended quickly - he was able to play out mishra's workshop, black lotus, mox jet, mox sapphire, mox pearl, necropotence, ancestral recall, time walk, tinker, time vault, tolarian academy, and a bunch of other cards that I later confirmed are on the banned list. I think the only fair cards he played were some tutor cards, parallax tide, and balance. We played a few more games afterwards.
The only time he lost was when 3 of the other players brought in decks with blue cards to stop him. When he was eliminated, we called a "coalition victory." And we needed that, because it was clear that we weren't having much fun watching the blue white deck win repeatedly. He told the group that he doesn't respect the banned list. He added that we all have the ability to get those cards, so banning them makes no sense. He even pointed to a few of them in the store's display case, which I found to be a rather annoying gesture.
So knowing that we have a small commander community, I'll probably end up playing with him in a game in the future. Is there a way to politely tell him that we would like for him to play a fairer deck?
Underworld Connections
phyrexian Gargantua
Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Erebos, God of the Dead
Mostly stuff from Lorwyn through Theros blocks. I received some Urza's block rares that had some very minor imperfections on the back (but with otherwise NM-like surfaces and edges), and I didn't mind because those cards are over 15 years old. But stuff from Lorwyn block should not look like they've been repeatedly played without sleeves.
I've tried getting administrators involved. They just ignore my requests. I think it's because I'm a non-paying member.
Is it better to keep expeditions or revised dual lands for the long term? Ive been offered some duals in pretty good condition for a combination of my expedition lands and khans fetch lands.
I thought it would be best to post here than to start a new thread.
Thanks in asvance!
Good to hear from you regarding this topic.
To answer your questions ... Pucatrade does not have a feedback system. And pucatrade doesnt have a system for refunding postage either. When I get a card that is clearly not Nm, I send a message to the sender. Interestingly, none has argued with me regarding condition. Theyve all requested that I take the card for a fraction discounted. I say no and then agree to send the card back for a full points refund. Some senders have sent points back for postage. Others dont. I dont bother with the postage because it is small compared to the cost of the cards (each between 5 and 20 dollars).
I can see why a store would want to avoid pucatrade. The trouble of having to deal with such a high percentage of non nm condition cards is just another headache on top of keeping the lights on. And there are no safeguards against fraud. One of the senders a Nm card can simply say that I never sent the card, and I would be out my points and the card. And before anyone chimes in about adding confirmation to the shippinng ... I dont want to spend the extra 3 dollars and 30 minutes in line at the post office to do that. I am sure most people wouldnt either.
To the honest people on pucatrade .. You guys are awesome!! I send messages to the senders of every sucessful trade. You know who you are.
On the other hand, of the cards Ive received from people, I would say that 75 percent of them are not NM. Some are simply slightly damaged here and there. But most are quite blatant. We're talking bent cards, cards with grimy and sticky surfaces, cards dented by finger nails or sharp objects, cards with pencil or pen marks, cards that had their borders colored by black sharpie pens, and a combination of the above. I am returning each one, but the cost of time and postage is just unacceptable.
Why do people do this? Are they ignorant of what Nm condition means? Are they gambling that the recipient won't mind?
I have a feeling this would push it too far in the other direction. Ie. imagine revealing a skarrg guildmage and then placing it face down as a "free" taiga.
Anyway, I think the colorness option would not be too game-breaking. If you do this too many times, you'll lose playable cards in your hand. Maybe there are artifact decks that could really pounce on this advantage, but I haven't seen any format dominating artifact decks, and I doubt that this change will push any to the absurdity of Splinter Twin.
Sorry I don't know how to respond to set the quotes so that it looks like I'm responding to one quote at a time.
The commonly used 77 cents per each dollar is a myth. A quick search online will show plenty of evidence. Christina Hoff Sommers has a very good video about this on youtube. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links here, so I'll refrain from doing so.
You are absolutely right about the slave outfit. I am a woman and I don't care about it. I actually think it was used appropriately. Had she been in a full set of rebel armor, the scene would have looked ridiculous.
The biological differences are very real. I was a decent athlete in high school. But there was no way that I could compete even with the "low end of the spectrum" members of the boys basketball team. We were at a disadvantage in both height and weight. I have heard about the military issue. I'm sure there are some super athletic in shape women who can cut it with the Army Rangers (ie Commander Jane Shepard!!!), but the average female Ranger will never match up well with the average male Ranger. This is what I meant by biological differences. You can't have the mens' sports teams compete against womens' sports teams - assuming equally ranked (that means high school vs high school; college vs college; etc) in anything other than a super friendly all star game event. The mens team will win every time.
I also mentioned the accomplishments section as a break from the biological differences. I work in medicine, and I don't consider myself at a disadvantage due to gender. In my training, I have been on teams where I felt like I was doing a better job than my male peers, and I have been on the opposite of that - where my peers were clearly doing a better job than me. Biological differences would not account for any of those. This is where all that matter are the individual's talents, determination to learn and get better, and willingness to put in the hours required to achieve something.
I do agree that feminism was needed at one point in our history. But that time has passed. It's no longer needed now. As such, much of the feminism we see today are radical.
At one point in time, Italian immigrants were discriminated against in this country. I'd be laughed at for days if I were to start a group that demands equal rights / pay / status for Italian Americans.
Feminism is dangerous because it tries to brainwash the public, especially young women, that women are natural born victims. I have seen this in some of my peers and friends while growing up. They'd complain about not being taken seriously or not getting the same opportunities while not being willing to put in the work. I remember a girl in my Biochem class complaining that the prof (a male) didn't like female students and would thus grade them more harshly. I did fine in that class. As did the female students I knew who put in the hours to study for it. This particular girl who complained was the type to come to lab totally unprepared and would then try to befriend the high-achieving male students to give her "help." She tried to make it subtle, but we all saw it.
I'd like to get a real Feminist's take on the example above. On the one hand, Feminism would agree that she's a girl and thus would need extra help to be on an even playing field with the others because Biochem naturally favors males or something. On the other hand, Feminism would say that using her feminine-ness is wrong because that's bowing to patriarchy.
Regarding Leia .. whether it's necessary or not is irrelevant. I like the way it was shown. The way she's dressed is no different from how some shows feature a dangerous stripper doing something bad that's important to the plot. Feminists will find a way to make any female video game character a poster-girl for sexism. Heck, they'd probably find some way to make my Jane Shepard character appear to be sexist as well.
Sorry for the rant. Hope it all makes sense.
EDIT:
PS. Ashiok, a word of advice. Don't waste your time or energy arguing with a feminist. Most of them are too brain washed to listen to reason. They will continue to believe that they're victims and need special treatment no matter what you tell them.
I dont accumulate store very much store credit, so these policies dont bother me much. Not sure if other stores around the country do these things as well.