I don't have a lot of time, so I'll be quick and concise.
the only arguments so far for forbid have been pretty weak because they...
1: count on the MUC pilot being a bad deckbuilder/player
2: give situations in which the MUC pilot has no chance of losing, making forbid just a "win more" card
for example, daze-this is probably the most named spell that you would pitch to forbid. However, if you play daze in your MUC deck, you are a bad deckbuilder, because daze is one of the worst counterspells possible in the deck. I think the reason why people still try to play it is that they see daze in legacy decks like merfolk and reanimator and put it in their decks without really thinking about it
That seems like a very harsh thing to say. Essentially calling anyone who plays Forbid a noob is kind of underhanded, true or not.
What you say about Daze I agree with. It's a good card in its own right and is very useful to combat certain things, but it has next to no place in MUC; it's too counterproductive to the overall strategy IMO.
Also, you don't put cards in a deck to pitch to Forbid, you build your deck counting on it. I don't care if it's bad deckbuilding practice, it works in this situation. The cards you pitch to Forbid are 100% usable without it, and in fact, become more usable with it. Force Spike, Spell Snare, Ancestral Vision, extra lands, extra Oblivion Stones: all powerful when you need them (I need to write an article on how powerful Force Spike is, I swear), and once they lose their value, you can pitch them to Forbid without thinking twice. Even better is cracking a Fact or Fiction and picking the 3-pile with Force Spike, Ancestral Vision, Island and scooping them up just to fuel the Forbid in your hand. Powerful stuff.
No argument here. Brainstorm is awesome with shuffle effects.
stalking stones-why would you play a finisher that is outclassed by many 1 and 2 drops, which have a nasty habit of getting onto the field before most counterspells can be used?
The only reason I play Stalking Stones is because I'm too cheap to buy Mishra's Workshop/Mutavault. However, even those powerhouses cannot do what the Stones do, which is become a permanent threat at instant speed. It makes mana for you until you need it, and after you need it, and only needs a one time commitment at a point in the game where you would be looking for a card such as itself. Paying for things at the end if the opponent's turn is an irreplaceable effect. Again, I'm not saying its a hidden gem, I'm just saying that it's a great replacement if budget is tight, and fits a different niche.
ok now for the win more scenario:
Quote:
Here's an example: It's now turn 7, your opponent has 7 mana and no creatures, you have Vedalken Shackles in play
its turn 7, so your opponent has 7 lands and 7 spells (max)
he has no creatures
you have vedalken shackles
how would you lose this?
and how much would your opponent have to suck (or be unlucky, as they have as many lands as non-lands) for them to get into a position like this?
First off, that's a far from doomed game for the opponent. Depending on the deck, he could still force through key spells against your 2 counterspells in hand, perhaps. This is where Forbid is golden. It's not a lock, it's insurance. You counter a couple of those spells that could give you trouble, and ride home to victory slowly and surely. Spell Burst could also work in this situation, again, not as a lock, but as insurance. The only difference is that you need to have a hard counter for expensive spells and keep mana to Spell Burst the little ones. It works just fine, but I find that I have extra cards to pitch rather than having a specific counterspell and worrying about mana.
and for future reference, I play neither forbid nor spell burst because both of them are awful in games that are remotely close. I'm just explaining that spell burst sucks less to those that feel the need to lock their opponents out, as you don't need a huge CA lead to keep the lock going
I usually have won the game by turn 7-8 anyway because I use the thopter/sword combo, which is really hard to beat through light (11) counterspells
I'm just quickly going to restate that Forbid-LOCK should have a deck built around it. Forbid "insurance" (ie. just paying the buyback to keep a counterspell for when you need it) is a very powerful effect that is easy to keep up with sufficient card draw (I run just 4 Ancestral Vision and 4 Fact or Fiction and its plenty). To be honest, I usually win the game by turn 12-16, slowly winning with a clique/stones/one of their critters, only when I feel it's safe commit to some offense.
Besides, this is casual after all. Force of Will is better than Disrupting Shoal, but is more expensive and less fun.
Funny you should mention thopter-sword, I played against an awesome thopter equipment deck that was just jaw-droppingly cool and efficient. The guy played thopters, frogmites i believe, and maybe some other cheap/free critters, and basically had a curve of cheap/efficient equipment, including swords. He gave a lot of people headaches, and has inspired me to try a new deck-building technique once the new, sure to be equipment heavy block comes out.
Forbid is absolutely amazing, make no mistake about it.
MUC is more than just card advantage and counterspells. It's more than fending off the attack and neutralizing the board. You have to keep it that way, and then exert the proper amount of pressure (which isn't much). This is where Forbid is unmatched in power. I wouldn't even consider playing another card in it's place -except maybe Spell Burst in some sort of tron or big mana blue.
Here's an example: It's now turn 7, your opponent has 7 mana and no creatures, you have Vedalken Shackles in play, Forbid in hand with a few cards and 7 Islands. Your opponent must cast through Forbid twice, risking being countered twice and still getting a threat stolen. If he doesn't, you play a Fact or Fiction, where every 2 non-Counterspell cards is another Forbid. You essentially never have to search for another counterspell for the rest of the game, you already have it. You just fuel it with cards you don't need to win.
Remember, you only need to do 20 to your opponent before he does it to you. You don't need to have him locked under Spell Burst, you can use that extra mana to activate a Stalking Stones or flash a Vendilion Clique into play to finish the game faster. Forbid is insurance: If you have one and have a decent position (cards in hand, mana, field) which is your goal in MUC, you'll always have an answer that you can decide to play and retain.
As a quick aside, my list from last page, still unchanged, is just ripping through every deck I play my friends with. It's gotten so bad that I play a fun Phage/Endless Whispers control deck to keep them from crying. Their decks are pretty good, but they don't even stand a ghost of a chance...
I agree vendilion clique is extremely good. It's such a huge tempo booster especailly when your playing clique at the end of your opponent's turn. As for forbid, it sems pretty solid. I've actually tried out a 26 land MUC deck with treasure hunts and forbids in it. I think treasure hunts break forbids even further and it can be strong when you have extra lands to pitch for forbid's buyback.
After some playtesting (which wasn't much, because surprise surprise, nobody wants to rematch this deck lol) I've made the following changes:
I'm liking this a lot more. I find that I run enough countermagic (especially after squeezing in another Spell Snare and Forbid) that 3 Shoals will cover my tapped out counter needs. My early game is pretty strong with 4 Force Spike, 4 Spell Snare, and 3 Disrupting Shoal.
Having the extra Forbid is quite noticeable. More often than not I draw them at a stage of the game when I'm starting to take over or firming my grip, and Forbid really is a kick in the sack at that point. Plus, you could always pitch one to the other.
Using Ancestral Vision on turn 1 or 2 most of the time, I really only have to make my first 4 land drops; since I'll draw into more with Ancestral Vision. Plus, I should be playing Fact or Fiction by this time, especially if I get low on land. This allows me to drop a Stalking Stones, since it's only really useful turn 6 earliest, usually turn 8-9; so 2 will suffice. I'm still playing Stones over Riptide Laboratory since the Stones do put a fair amount of pressure on the opponent. Although, I like how Riptide Lab essentially makes my deck creature removal immune. (Minus Guile, but you shouldn't play him without countermagic backup) I'll test Riptide Lab more, and I wouldn't be surprised if I end up using it over Stalking Stones.
I don't know how you built your deck. But if it has some Brainstorm/Sensei's Divining Top or other manipulation effects with your Treasure Hunt and 26 lands, you could really put the squeeze on your opponent with Forbid. You'll consistently be able to have 1UU: Counter target spell available, and your opponent will know that; possibly making him play poorly. It's possible to go: t1 Brainstorm, t2 Treasure Hunt, t3 Forbid engine going. Keep dropping lands, hit a board sweeper (Nevinyrral's Disk maybe), keep drawing cards (Fact or Fiction really shines here as you can opt of quality cards for more Forbid fuel if you'd like, making the opponent's job that much more difficult) and finish the game as you choose.
Going a bit off track. I'd like to see your decklist if you dont mind posting it Cecilia, the concept seems interesting, effective, and slightly sadistic.
So far, the deck plays pretty smooth. Aside from a few minor tweaks (haven't tested Riptide Laboratory or the second Forbid) I think this is pretty much what I'm gonna stick to. I can't really think of anything that fits the deck better.
Quick Note: Vendilion Clique is so good for this deck. If you haven't tried them yet, you're only doing yourself a disservice.
I considered Meditation, but I dismissed it. Here's why: First, for 1 extra mana, I can get the same amount of cards on occasion, 1 less most of the time, or 2 key cards using Fact or Fiction. Plus I'll get the extra card from my draw step I would've missed. More importantly, I get to untap. In a deck like this, you can't put a price on untapping, but its more than 2U
@Blutsau
This is exactly what I was looking for when I posted. I feel like I really succeeded in describing my deck, seeing as how you seem to get it, and you make suggestions that I would consider making myself. The deck you quoted is actually exactly what I'm using now. (That deck tag thing is cool btw)
I've thought of dropping a Disrupting Shoal for Forbid to up the hard counter count, and I feel like that would strike a good balance should the deck not function as intended.
Riptide Laboratory is pretty cool, and I like how it's almost like a 3 mana counterspell to removal pointed at Vendilion Clique. It actually works for just about any removal; be it mass removal, -X/-X effects, sacrifice effects, etc. Replaying the Clique is almost a non-issue, and in a lot of cases, beneficial.
Tolaria West I'm not that fond of, partially because I have to transmute it as a sorcery. Tutoring up Ancestral Vision is cool, but maybe unnecessary since It'll be turn 4 when I suspend it, and I hope to play FoF turn 4
I'm actually a huge fan of Pact of Negation, especially in combo decks that "go off" in one turn, but I feel like it's out of place in this deck. That also puts the nail in the coffin of Tolaria West for me. Stalking Stones is just what I have. They dont provide the early game punch that Mishra's Factory/Mutavault packs, but it's still a good finisher once I'm decently stable or cant find a Clique or something. There's always the option of just dropping them for Islands too.
I'm gonna be playing a ton of games with a bunch of friends some time next week. I'll try 4 Shoal 1 Forbid, and 3 Shoal 2 Forbid and see which I feel better with. I'm also picking up a copy of Riptide Laboratory to mess around with. Since I have it, I'll play a few games with Sphinx of Jwar Isle in Guile's place too, since in my opinion, the Sphinx is the best finisher MUC has now. Although, Guile has proven himself quite useful in this deck with his Graveyard trigger. Plus, it's too much fun beating someone with a Guile.
I appreciate your insight, it's exactly what I was looking for. It makes me see that I'm on the right track when others comprehend how my deck works and share similar views on what to improve.
I've been reading through most MUC threads on these forums (Legacy, Extended, etc.) and I've decided to build a casual version of what is probably my favourite deck type of all time: Mono Blue Control.
While this is a casual deck (no Force of Will), it most certainly is still competitive and holds its own against some of the finest tuned decks I've played.
I guess I'll post the list before I get into details:
WARNING: After typing this, losing it all to ctrl + w (seriously, that's a stupid shortcut...) and typing it again, I see that this is a fairly long post. But I think it's a good read.
This is a very draw-go style of MUC, which to me is the true essence of the deck. I feel that the best way to explain how the deck works (which is important) is to explain the cards individually:
Force Spike: I absolutely love this card. In the absence of Force of Will, Spike is a monster. Having one in hand turn 1 on the play gives you a great deal of control. You decide right from the get-go what's going down. It's weaker late game, but you can still catch people offguard, and it makes people play around it even if you don't have one. Plus, one of this deck's main synergies is to combine the weaknesses of cards to turn them into strengths. More to come.
Spell Snare: Solid counter against a wide variety of threats. Invaluable in counter wars, which this deck rarely loses (barring FoW). It's uses diminish late game, but it is still relevant. I'd consider a fourth if I could find a place to squeeze it in.
Counterspell: The name says it all. Counter a spell. Period.
Disrupting Shoal: Shoal is absolutely nuts in this deck. I don't want to spend $200 on a playset of Force of Will when I can spend 100 times less (literally!) on a playset of Shoals. And you know what; they're amazing. This deck's curve is spread nicely to abuse Shoal. It's also fantastic at pitching uneeded Force Spikes, excess Shoals, or copies of Vendilion Clique when you already have one beating face. Combined with Force Spike and Spell Snare early game, it really helps get to that crucial stabilization point that usually is what gives MUC nightmares. Extremely underrated, give it a go.
Cryptic Command: Flexibility incarnate. Being able to counter a threat and bounce another is not something to be overlooked. That's a game-changing effect. I daresay its a game-winning effect. Most people dismiss this card because it's slow at 4 mana and doesn't "win you the game" like an EoT undisputed Fact or Fiction does. This is not completely true. Cryptic Command doesn't "win you the game" as often, but a well placed and chosen Cryptic Commandcan win you the game. I find 2 to be a good number. It's a complex card, and in a deck built off complexity; I welcome it.
Forbid: Forbid does something for the deck that I find irreplaceable: it gives the deck inevitability. If it shows up around turn 5-6, and I'm in some sort of decent position in the game, I'll usually win. Pitching extra Spikes/Shoals/Cliques/land to it is common, and it lets me play my counters more aggresively since I know I have Forbid to fall back on. I wouldn't mind running a second copy since an early 3mana counter is still pretty solid.
Ancestral Vision: This was a lot of cards before I settled on Ancestral Vision. It competed with Brainstorm, Impulse, and even Standstill, which surprisingly, was the next best. Ancestral Vision is way too good in this deck. Most times, it comes down turn 2 on the draw with a mana open and a Spell Snare and Disrupting Shoal in hand. Stop and think about it. That's a devastating play before your opponent drops his second land. Doing things like this is the type of play that jumps right into stabilization and ultimately into your lategame, where you just completely dominate. Speaking of lategame; AV is still pretty useful up until turn 5-6, where Fact or Fiction usually just ploughs through with its game-winning goodness. When you dont need it anymore, it can be chucked with the aforementioned card drawing bomb. It's also prime pitching for Forbid and can even be used by Shoal to nix 0cmc cards. (It happens!)
Fact or Fiction: Combined with Ancestral Vision, I have all the cards I could dream of. It digs 5 deep for what I need (which sometimes is a specific cmc card for Shoal). It forces my opponent to make difficult decisions (which they often get wrong). It dumps cards I dont need, or fuels other cards to dump them. It wins games. Run four. Always.
Vedalken Shackles: We all know what Shackles does for the deck and how good it is at it, so I'll skip that part. What I will say, is that if Shackles had a best friend, it would be Vendilion Clique. Running Clique allows me to run 3 Shackles, rather than 4, comfortably. Most of the time, it comes up when I need it, and when it doesn't, Clique is there to stem the flow until Shackles comes along to mop up. Plus, the happy friendship of Shackles and Clique rack up the 20 points I need to win in most games, being very reliable win conditions.
Oblivion Stone/Powder Keg: So far, I prefer Oblivion Stone, and here's why: This deck has a pretty strong early game. Between all the early game counters, and Cliques/Shackles coming down quickly, I don't need Powder Keg as much as traditional MUC does. To me, this slot is more valuable as a safety net for whatever bigger threat(s) sneak through, especially non-creatures as my only out would be to bounce it with Cryptic Command. Serving this function, 2 slots feel just about right, although I wouldn't mind testing 3. Playing casually, games are also a bit slower, which is an edge for Stone. Finally, Oblivion Stone is a recent card while Powder Keg is getting older and older, and while old cards are cool, I prefer keeping my casual decks as current as possible.
Vendilion Clique: I'm so happy that this card was printed. In my opinion, it is the perfect card for MUC. It's a decent body (3/1 flying for 3) with flash, so you can EoT it into play and put a very real clock on your opponent. It's also as close to a removal spell as blue is going to get. flash-blocking can even get rid of creatures with shroud that other removal spells would fan on. Score one for the mischievous faeries. It comes down right when we need it most, and on top of everything, it comes with a nifty ability that's ALWAYS relevant. The icing on the cake is that you can chuck uneeded copies to Disrupting Shoal/Forbid. Vendilion Clique is the best thing to happen to MUC in a long time.
Finishers: This slot is almost unneeded. Clique and Shackles do such a good job of winning the game on their own. However, it is still nice to have a solid finisher, and everyone likes to have a deck mascot. They're all viable in their own right, and excel in different situations. It is worth noting that Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is slightly worse in this deck since Clique has flash and I'm already so strong in counterwars. Humourously, Guile is noticeably better in this deck mainly for his graveyard avoiding ability. Since you only play 1 solid finisher, you're normally forced to take him in a Fact or Fiction split. But since Guile will stick around after getting ditched, his value increases. This is doubly important with and early resolved FoF. Also, he can be pitched to Forbid and to Disrupting Shoal if you dont need him, and it's pretty funny to counter a $50 Primeval Titan by pitching Guile to Disrupting Shoal.
Land: Quicksand is good when I need it (heavy aggro, like WW), and pretty lame when I don't. Stalking Stones is left over from when Standstill was in Ancestral Vision's place, but it's still a solid win condition, and let's me play through opposing Standstills. Mishra's Factory is ancient and therefore, unappealing, and Mutavault costs WAY too much for what it does. I like the Stones best right now, but I could also go with an all Island base and maybe add in Minamo, School at Water's Edge and/or Riptide Laboratory for some fun with Vendilion Clique but it seems like a narrow and marginally useful accommodation.
I can't think of much to change in my deck, which is the main reason I posted here in the first place. My main critiques of my deck are as follows:
1) Not enough counterspells. Yep, even though I have 18(!), I feel like I'm short actual hard counters. I mean, all I have is Counterspell itself unless I draw into an early Forbid, or it's late enough that I can use Cryptic Command. This has nagged me for a while, but seeing as how the deck is so strong counterwise in the early game, I should have enough actual Counterspells left to carry me over to Forbid/Cryptic, with a little Spell Snare/Shoal thrown in. I feel like upping Forbid to 2, just so I can have some sort of extra hard counter, but I wouldn't know what to cut. Everything seems necessary AND I wouldn't mind and EXTRA Spell Snare. But like I said, my gut tells me that the counterbase *should* work fine.
2) Not having card selection/quality like Brainstorm/Impulse. Again, I think I should be alright seeing as how I almost always get an early Ancestral Vision and I run enough land to not need to dig for them. Plus I have enough ways to pitch otherwise dead cards in my hand already. I guess I'm just used to those luxuries. The way I see it; if you build your deck properly AND have enough redundancy, cards like these are not really needed; a goal I hope to have achieved.
Other than that, everything else looks good. Card Drawing is golden, threats and win conditions are solid, my early game is strong enough that I don't feel the need for Powder Keg/Engineered Explosives or cards like Propaganda. Back to Basics isn't as good in a casual environment. I've never liked Chalice of the Void or Chrome Mox, nor would either of them do my deck any good; Chalice of the Void even hinders it.
I know that I've babbled for quite a long time now, but after reading a lot (and I mean a LOT) of MUC posts I learned 2 things:
1) People who describe their deck and card interactions in detail are the most helpful to discussion.
2) These posts are much more likely to get feedback or start discussion.
I would really appreciate the feedback and insight of what I think is a very knowledgeable, experienced and friendly community, and I felt that my in-depth analysis is what would make it easier for you guys to see what I see and to catalyst the process of creativity.
That seems like a very harsh thing to say. Essentially calling anyone who plays Forbid a noob is kind of underhanded, true or not.
What you say about Daze I agree with. It's a good card in its own right and is very useful to combat certain things, but it has next to no place in MUC; it's too counterproductive to the overall strategy IMO.
Also, you don't put cards in a deck to pitch to Forbid, you build your deck counting on it. I don't care if it's bad deckbuilding practice, it works in this situation. The cards you pitch to Forbid are 100% usable without it, and in fact, become more usable with it. Force Spike, Spell Snare, Ancestral Vision, extra lands, extra Oblivion Stones: all powerful when you need them (I need to write an article on how powerful Force Spike is, I swear), and once they lose their value, you can pitch them to Forbid without thinking twice. Even better is cracking a Fact or Fiction and picking the 3-pile with Force Spike, Ancestral Vision, Island and scooping them up just to fuel the Forbid in your hand. Powerful stuff.
No argument here. Brainstorm is awesome with shuffle effects.
The only reason I play Stalking Stones is because I'm too cheap to buy Mishra's Workshop/Mutavault. However, even those powerhouses cannot do what the Stones do, which is become a permanent threat at instant speed. It makes mana for you until you need it, and after you need it, and only needs a one time commitment at a point in the game where you would be looking for a card such as itself. Paying for things at the end if the opponent's turn is an irreplaceable effect. Again, I'm not saying its a hidden gem, I'm just saying that it's a great replacement if budget is tight, and fits a different niche.
First off, that's a far from doomed game for the opponent. Depending on the deck, he could still force through key spells against your 2 counterspells in hand, perhaps. This is where Forbid is golden. It's not a lock, it's insurance. You counter a couple of those spells that could give you trouble, and ride home to victory slowly and surely. Spell Burst could also work in this situation, again, not as a lock, but as insurance. The only difference is that you need to have a hard counter for expensive spells and keep mana to Spell Burst the little ones. It works just fine, but I find that I have extra cards to pitch rather than having a specific counterspell and worrying about mana.
I'm just quickly going to restate that Forbid-LOCK should have a deck built around it. Forbid "insurance" (ie. just paying the buyback to keep a counterspell for when you need it) is a very powerful effect that is easy to keep up with sufficient card draw (I run just 4 Ancestral Vision and 4 Fact or Fiction and its plenty). To be honest, I usually win the game by turn 12-16, slowly winning with a clique/stones/one of their critters, only when I feel it's safe commit to some offense.
Besides, this is casual after all. Force of Will is better than Disrupting Shoal, but is more expensive and less fun.
Funny you should mention thopter-sword, I played against an awesome thopter equipment deck that was just jaw-droppingly cool and efficient. The guy played thopters, frogmites i believe, and maybe some other cheap/free critters, and basically had a curve of cheap/efficient equipment, including swords. He gave a lot of people headaches, and has inspired me to try a new deck-building technique once the new, sure to be equipment heavy block comes out.
MUC is more than just card advantage and counterspells. It's more than fending off the attack and neutralizing the board. You have to keep it that way, and then exert the proper amount of pressure (which isn't much). This is where Forbid is unmatched in power. I wouldn't even consider playing another card in it's place -except maybe Spell Burst in some sort of tron or big mana blue.
Here's an example: It's now turn 7, your opponent has 7 mana and no creatures, you have Vedalken Shackles in play, Forbid in hand with a few cards and 7 Islands. Your opponent must cast through Forbid twice, risking being countered twice and still getting a threat stolen. If he doesn't, you play a Fact or Fiction, where every 2 non-Counterspell cards is another Forbid. You essentially never have to search for another counterspell for the rest of the game, you already have it. You just fuel it with cards you don't need to win.
Remember, you only need to do 20 to your opponent before he does it to you. You don't need to have him locked under Spell Burst, you can use that extra mana to activate a Stalking Stones or flash a Vendilion Clique into play to finish the game faster. Forbid is insurance: If you have one and have a decent position (cards in hand, mana, field) which is your goal in MUC, you'll always have an answer that you can decide to play and retain.
As a quick aside, my list from last page, still unchanged, is just ripping through every deck I play my friends with. It's gotten so bad that I play a fun Phage/Endless Whispers control deck to keep them from crying. Their decks are pretty good, but they don't even stand a ghost of a chance...
After some playtesting (which wasn't much, because surprise surprise, nobody wants to rematch this deck lol) I've made the following changes:
-1 Stalking Stones
-1 Disrupting Shoal
+1 Spell Snare
+1 Forbid
Which brings me to this:
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
3 Disrupting Shoal
2 Cryptic Command
2 Forbid
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Oblivion Stone
1 Guile
21 Island
2 Stalking Stones
I'm liking this a lot more. I find that I run enough countermagic (especially after squeezing in another Spell Snare and Forbid) that 3 Shoals will cover my tapped out counter needs. My early game is pretty strong with 4 Force Spike, 4 Spell Snare, and 3 Disrupting Shoal.
Having the extra Forbid is quite noticeable. More often than not I draw them at a stage of the game when I'm starting to take over or firming my grip, and Forbid really is a kick in the sack at that point. Plus, you could always pitch one to the other.
Using Ancestral Vision on turn 1 or 2 most of the time, I really only have to make my first 4 land drops; since I'll draw into more with Ancestral Vision. Plus, I should be playing Fact or Fiction by this time, especially if I get low on land. This allows me to drop a Stalking Stones, since it's only really useful turn 6 earliest, usually turn 8-9; so 2 will suffice. I'm still playing Stones over Riptide Laboratory since the Stones do put a fair amount of pressure on the opponent. Although, I like how Riptide Lab essentially makes my deck creature removal immune. (Minus Guile, but you shouldn't play him without countermagic backup) I'll test Riptide Lab more, and I wouldn't be surprised if I end up using it over Stalking Stones.
I don't know how you built your deck. But if it has some Brainstorm/Sensei's Divining Top or other manipulation effects with your Treasure Hunt and 26 lands, you could really put the squeeze on your opponent with Forbid. You'll consistently be able to have 1UU: Counter target spell available, and your opponent will know that; possibly making him play poorly. It's possible to go: t1 Brainstorm, t2 Treasure Hunt, t3 Forbid engine going. Keep dropping lands, hit a board sweeper (Nevinyrral's Disk maybe), keep drawing cards (Fact or Fiction really shines here as you can opt of quality cards for more Forbid fuel if you'd like, making the opponent's job that much more difficult) and finish the game as you choose.
Going a bit off track.
So far, the deck plays pretty smooth. Aside from a few minor tweaks (haven't tested Riptide Laboratory or the second Forbid) I think this is pretty much what I'm gonna stick to. I can't really think of anything that fits the deck better.
Quick Note: Vendilion Clique is so good for this deck. If you haven't tried them yet, you're only doing yourself a disservice.
I considered Meditation, but I dismissed it. Here's why: First, for 1 extra mana, I can get the same amount of cards on occasion, 1 less most of the time, or 2 key cards using Fact or Fiction. Plus I'll get the extra card from my draw step I would've missed. More importantly, I get to untap. In a deck like this, you can't put a price on untapping, but its more than 2U
@Blutsau
This is exactly what I was looking for when I posted.
I've thought of dropping a Disrupting Shoal for Forbid to up the hard counter count, and I feel like that would strike a good balance should the deck not function as intended.
Riptide Laboratory is pretty cool, and I like how it's almost like a 3 mana counterspell to removal pointed at Vendilion Clique. It actually works for just about any removal; be it mass removal, -X/-X effects, sacrifice effects, etc. Replaying the Clique is almost a non-issue, and in a lot of cases, beneficial.
Tolaria West I'm not that fond of, partially because I have to transmute it as a sorcery. Tutoring up Ancestral Vision is cool, but maybe unnecessary since It'll be turn 4 when I suspend it, and I hope to play FoF turn 4
I'm actually a huge fan of Pact of Negation, especially in combo decks that "go off" in one turn, but I feel like it's out of place in this deck. That also puts the nail in the coffin of Tolaria West for me. Stalking Stones is just what I have. They dont provide the early game punch that Mishra's Factory/Mutavault packs, but it's still a good finisher once I'm decently stable or cant find a Clique or something. There's always the option of just dropping them for Islands too.
I'm gonna be playing a ton of games with a bunch of friends some time next week. I'll try 4 Shoal 1 Forbid, and 3 Shoal 2 Forbid and see which I feel better with. I'm also picking up a copy of Riptide Laboratory to mess around with. Since I have it, I'll play a few games with Sphinx of Jwar Isle in Guile's place too, since in my opinion, the Sphinx is the best finisher MUC has now. Although, Guile has proven himself quite useful in this deck with his Graveyard trigger. Plus, it's too much fun beating someone with a Guile.
I appreciate your insight, it's exactly what I was looking for. It makes me see that I'm on the right track when others comprehend how my deck works and share similar views on what to improve.
I've been reading through most MUC threads on these forums (Legacy, Extended, etc.) and I've decided to build a casual version of what is probably my favourite deck type of all time: Mono Blue Control.
While this is a casual deck (no Force of Will), it most certainly is still competitive and holds its own against some of the finest tuned decks I've played.
I guess I'll post the list before I get into details:
WARNING: After typing this, losing it all to ctrl + w (seriously, that's a stupid shortcut...) and typing it again, I see that this is a fairly long post. But I think it's a good read.
Control.dec
21 Island
3 Stalking Stones/Quicksand/Island
4 Force Spike
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Disrupting Shoal
2 Cryptic Command
1 Forbid
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Oblivion Stone/Powder Keg
4 Vendilion Clique
1 Morphling/Guile/Meloku, the Clouded Mirror/Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir/Sphinx of Jwar Isle/Oona, Queen of the Fae
This is a very draw-go style of MUC, which to me is the true essence of the deck. I feel that the best way to explain how the deck works (which is important) is to explain the cards individually:
Force Spike: I absolutely love this card. In the absence of Force of Will, Spike is a monster. Having one in hand turn 1 on the play gives you a great deal of control. You decide right from the get-go what's going down. It's weaker late game, but you can still catch people offguard, and it makes people play around it even if you don't have one. Plus, one of this deck's main synergies is to combine the weaknesses of cards to turn them into strengths. More to come.
Spell Snare: Solid counter against a wide variety of threats. Invaluable in counter wars, which this deck rarely loses (barring FoW). It's uses diminish late game, but it is still relevant. I'd consider a fourth if I could find a place to squeeze it in.
Counterspell: The name says it all. Counter a spell. Period.
Disrupting Shoal: Shoal is absolutely nuts in this deck. I don't want to spend $200 on a playset of Force of Will when I can spend 100 times less (literally!) on a playset of Shoals. And you know what; they're amazing. This deck's curve is spread nicely to abuse Shoal. It's also fantastic at pitching uneeded Force Spikes, excess Shoals, or copies of Vendilion Clique when you already have one beating face. Combined with Force Spike and Spell Snare early game, it really helps get to that crucial stabilization point that usually is what gives MUC nightmares. Extremely underrated, give it a go.
Cryptic Command: Flexibility incarnate. Being able to counter a threat and bounce another is not something to be overlooked. That's a game-changing effect. I daresay its a game-winning effect. Most people dismiss this card because it's slow at 4 mana and doesn't "win you the game" like an EoT undisputed Fact or Fiction does. This is not completely true. Cryptic Command doesn't "win you the game" as often, but a well placed and chosen Cryptic Command can win you the game. I find 2 to be a good number. It's a complex card, and in a deck built off complexity; I welcome it.
Forbid: Forbid does something for the deck that I find irreplaceable: it gives the deck inevitability. If it shows up around turn 5-6, and I'm in some sort of decent position in the game, I'll usually win. Pitching extra Spikes/Shoals/Cliques/land to it is common, and it lets me play my counters more aggresively since I know I have Forbid to fall back on. I wouldn't mind running a second copy since an early 3mana counter is still pretty solid.
Ancestral Vision: This was a lot of cards before I settled on Ancestral Vision. It competed with Brainstorm, Impulse, and even Standstill, which surprisingly, was the next best. Ancestral Vision is way too good in this deck. Most times, it comes down turn 2 on the draw with a mana open and a Spell Snare and Disrupting Shoal in hand. Stop and think about it. That's a devastating play before your opponent drops his second land. Doing things like this is the type of play that jumps right into stabilization and ultimately into your lategame, where you just completely dominate. Speaking of lategame; AV is still pretty useful up until turn 5-6, where Fact or Fiction usually just ploughs through with its game-winning goodness. When you dont need it anymore, it can be chucked with the aforementioned card drawing bomb. It's also prime pitching for Forbid and can even be used by Shoal to nix 0cmc cards. (It happens!)
Fact or Fiction: Combined with Ancestral Vision, I have all the cards I could dream of. It digs 5 deep for what I need (which sometimes is a specific cmc card for Shoal). It forces my opponent to make difficult decisions (which they often get wrong). It dumps cards I dont need, or fuels other cards to dump them. It wins games. Run four. Always.
Vedalken Shackles: We all know what Shackles does for the deck and how good it is at it, so I'll skip that part. What I will say, is that if Shackles had a best friend, it would be Vendilion Clique. Running Clique allows me to run 3 Shackles, rather than 4, comfortably. Most of the time, it comes up when I need it, and when it doesn't, Clique is there to stem the flow until Shackles comes along to mop up. Plus, the happy friendship of Shackles and Clique rack up the 20 points I need to win in most games, being very reliable win conditions.
Oblivion Stone/Powder Keg: So far, I prefer Oblivion Stone, and here's why: This deck has a pretty strong early game. Between all the early game counters, and Cliques/Shackles coming down quickly, I don't need Powder Keg as much as traditional MUC does. To me, this slot is more valuable as a safety net for whatever bigger threat(s) sneak through, especially non-creatures as my only out would be to bounce it with Cryptic Command. Serving this function, 2 slots feel just about right, although I wouldn't mind testing 3. Playing casually, games are also a bit slower, which is an edge for Stone. Finally, Oblivion Stone is a recent card while Powder Keg is getting older and older, and while old cards are cool, I prefer keeping my casual decks as current as possible.
Vendilion Clique: I'm so happy that this card was printed. In my opinion, it is the perfect card for MUC. It's a decent body (3/1 flying for 3) with flash, so you can EoT it into play and put a very real clock on your opponent. It's also as close to a removal spell as blue is going to get. flash-blocking can even get rid of creatures with shroud that other removal spells would fan on. Score one for the mischievous faeries. It comes down right when we need it most, and on top of everything, it comes with a nifty ability that's ALWAYS relevant. The icing on the cake is that you can chuck uneeded copies to Disrupting Shoal/Forbid. Vendilion Clique is the best thing to happen to MUC in a long time.
Finishers: This slot is almost unneeded. Clique and Shackles do such a good job of winning the game on their own. However, it is still nice to have a solid finisher, and everyone likes to have a deck mascot.
Land: Quicksand is good when I need it (heavy aggro, like WW), and pretty lame when I don't. Stalking Stones is left over from when Standstill was in Ancestral Vision's place, but it's still a solid win condition, and let's me play through opposing Standstills. Mishra's Factory is ancient and therefore, unappealing, and Mutavault costs WAY too much for what it does. I like the Stones best right now, but I could also go with an all Island base and maybe add in Minamo, School at Water's Edge and/or Riptide Laboratory for some fun with Vendilion Clique but it seems like a narrow and marginally useful accommodation.
I can't think of much to change in my deck, which is the main reason I posted here in the first place. My main critiques of my deck are as follows:
1) Not enough counterspells. Yep, even though I have 18(!), I feel like I'm short actual hard counters. I mean, all I have is Counterspell itself unless I draw into an early Forbid, or it's late enough that I can use Cryptic Command. This has nagged me for a while, but seeing as how the deck is so strong counterwise in the early game, I should have enough actual Counterspells left to carry me over to Forbid/Cryptic, with a little Spell Snare/Shoal thrown in. I feel like upping Forbid to 2, just so I can have some sort of extra hard counter, but I wouldn't know what to cut. Everything seems necessary AND I wouldn't mind and EXTRA Spell Snare. But like I said, my gut tells me that the counterbase *should* work fine.
2) Not having card selection/quality like Brainstorm/Impulse. Again, I think I should be alright seeing as how I almost always get an early Ancestral Vision and I run enough land to not need to dig for them. Plus I have enough ways to pitch otherwise dead cards in my hand already. I guess I'm just used to those luxuries. The way I see it; if you build your deck properly AND have enough redundancy, cards like these are not really needed; a goal I hope to have achieved.
Other than that, everything else looks good. Card Drawing is golden, threats and win conditions are solid, my early game is strong enough that I don't feel the need for Powder Keg/Engineered Explosives or cards like Propaganda. Back to Basics isn't as good in a casual environment. I've never liked Chalice of the Void or Chrome Mox, nor would either of them do my deck any good; Chalice of the Void even hinders it.
I know that I've babbled for quite a long time now, but after reading a lot (and I mean a LOT) of MUC posts I learned 2 things:
1) People who describe their deck and card interactions in detail are the most helpful to discussion.
2) These posts are much more likely to get feedback or start discussion.
I would really appreciate the feedback and insight of what I think is a very knowledgeable, experienced and friendly community, and I felt that my in-depth analysis is what would make it easier for you guys to see what I see and to catalyst the process of creativity.
Regards, and thank you.