I dunno, as a blue player the game has been a lot less fun this season (actually since Jace/SFM bans lol), sure Delver is blue but it's not really "blue" yadadada? I like permission/tempo-control though so I am biased. Standard may not be for me anymore if I want to play my favorite strategy and cards and that's ok. Probably just play 1.5 until Control is good again, my only problem is no FNM for 1.5 and there doesn't seem to popular here in Portland. All wells, Cockatrice will have to do.
I am doing a very light splash of black for Lingering Souls only. Have been reading the last few pages and am trying a mix of Vendilion Clique/Restoration Angel/Lingering Souls to see what I like best, I like the options but am not a fan of too many 2 ofs. I know some will question my PW numbers but I am testing it out to see what I think, I always lean towards maxing out Jace. I think this list shows promise but am interested in other opinions, thanks!
Tome Scour is only good with Pikes so it should not have been in there to start with imo
OK, that helps discussion! :rolleye:
I did realize that as noted and took them out. The 2nd place Madison list had them btw, without Pikes as well, but that may be what your comment was referring to, hard to tell...
Just wanted to throw some ideas I had around for a U/W Miracle Control Deck. We all know how powerful the new miracles are, most notably Entreat the Angels, and I wanted to make a deck arround these cards. I'm not sure how competitive an all in miracle deck would be, so this may just be for fun. We might get something out of it though, who knows. The main strategy of the deck is to abuse the reduced cost of miracles by using cards that will help setup the miracles, while controlling the board and having alternate win-cons if the miracle plan falls through.
Here are the cards that I feel would work well in this deck:
Obvious Card Choices:
Entreat the Angels - The meat and potatoes of a miracle deck, the main finisher and what the deck is based around. This can't be the only win condition or strategy or the deck will be too easy to hate (Hi Ratchet Bomb and graveyard hate), but should be the main focus of the deck. I think a set is the right call in a deck built around the card, but that's just me.
Ponder - Needs no introduction, the main card that is going to help us dig out and set up our miracles, obviously a four of.
Forbidden Alchemy - Ponder alone can't be the only card to help us dig out our miracles. This card can help set up Noxious Revival as well as fill the graveyard for Snapcaster Mage by digging 4 deep, and can help fill your hand with those Noxious Revivals needed to set up miracles. I think a set is the right call.
Mana Leak - We need something to protect our combo, and Mana Leak is as good as any. Although Negate might be a good choice as well if you just want a counter to protect your Noxious Revival since it's a hard counter. 4 counters at least I'd say.
Jace, Memory Adept - He can send 10 cards to the yard and is an obvious choice for setting up Noxious Revival, he can also draw/discard and mill your opponent as an additional win con. I think he is worth running as a two of.
Day of Judgment - Early/mid game crowd control, this is well needed in an aggro heavy meta, Without DoJ this deck would just roll over to aggro (if it doesn't already :tongue:). I think given the need for it, 3-4 is the right call.
Terminus - What would a miracle deck be with only one miracle. It's good against most decks with it's miracle cost, and even at 6cmc without is worth having around if things get hairy. 2-3 is good imo.
Snapcaster Mage - Helps by flashing back Ponder, Alchemy and others and is a cheap chump to stall for a miracle. Can also snap miracles from the grave if you get desperate. 2-4 is good imo, he has a little less utility in this deck.
Gideon Jura - Relying solely on miracles is a good way to lose so I think uncle Gideon deserves a couple slots. Plays well with sweeps and won't get in the way of miracles.
Thought Scour - This card isn't as efficient as others at helping find miracles, but it's worth including I believe.
Manabase - I think :symw::symu: is the right call, with a light splash. White is obviously the main color here so it needs to be represented the most. Blue is the next most used color and Black is only really used for Forbidden Alchemy flash back.
Ok, I dropped Thought Scour and brought in Righteous Blow in for testing. Will have to play around with the spot removal numbers though, Gut Shot might need to be upped and Blow doesn't hit mana dorks unless they are attacking or blocking, but it does deal with a lot of problem cards for this deck. Thoughts?
Thanks for your questions on my deck, UW Control (obviously) is my deck of choice and I love discussion and making it better. I feel like this is a great time to be a UW Control player with all of the options we have. Before I reply I just want to say that deck building is a very personal thing and I don't expect everyone or anyone to agree with my choices, but I will do my best to explain why I like certain cards.
Is snapcaster mage really good in your deck? I run similar spells and i do not think he deserv his spot on this deck, at least not as a 4-off.
I have touched on this issue many times, even in this thread. My theory is this, you have a card that can at instant speed play any instant/sorcery in your graveyard while giving you a decent body, how is this not bananas for a control deck and why wouldn't I want to maximize it? Counters, DoJ, Ponder, removal, etc. are all ripe for flashback. Even though it doesn't quite work this way, I think of SCM like counters 8-12, DoJ 5-8 (4-7 in mine), etc. basically he makes it so I can run a more versatile deck and not have to run as many counters etc. because I have SCM to flashback. If I have an opening hand of Mana Leak and SCM I know I have at least turns 2-4 locked down until I can draw into something else. I never understood how people don't see his value in a control deck. His ability is perfect for a permission based control deck, miacles only make him better because now we have even more reason to abuse Ponder. Why NOT take advantage and run a set?
Also for the planeswalker "issue", is tamiyo that good against aggro? I mean the meta is full of fast aggro decks and tamiyo is just not that good against swarm i guess, especially if you only run 3 Day Of Judgment.
Guess it's not really an issue, just something I am working out. I'm not sure which PW's are best in this deck, and what the best setup is yet. Gideon+Tamiyo is the core of this deck at the least imo, Elspeth is nice against a lot of decks, especially aggro, and Karn just puts games away against slower decks. They are all really good, just need to figure out who is the best right now. At this point I like the numbers how they are (2 Gideon, 2 Elspeth, 1 Karn, 1 Tamiyo). 3 DoJ is fine in this deck imo, with Terminus, Ponder, SCM etc I don't have an issue with needing more sweeps.
You also seem quite heavy on ritual big ass spells ( 6 Walkers + 2 Entreat ) are you not struggling sometimes with hands full of kills?
Just as a matter of fact which of your spells end the majority of your games? ( I mean Karn/entreat/tamiyo/gideon/elspeth/snapcaster(why not :p) )
Not really struggling, don't think I have mulled with this deck yet because of too many expensive cards. If it becomes a problem then I will adjust my deck accordingly.
I would say the card that wins me the most so far are Gideon and Entreat. Karn has come through too and Elspeth is usually a pretty big help in getting there as well.
I'm not commenting on the rest of jland's deck, but Snapcaster is great in it. It allows him to toolbox, as the Snapcaster gives him a chance to access any of his draw, removal, counters, and Entreat the Angels when they are in the graveyard.
I expect the win condition in that deck is usually Entreat or Gideon, with Snapcaster sometimes finishing the job. U/W control doesn't generally need a lot of win-cons if they keep the board clear, but time is often a problem at tournaments.
^ This. Although I haven't had to Snap an Entreat yet, but I have had to snap a Terminus against an opponent's Entreat. If I really had to do it though I would, winning is more important that efficiency in the late game imo, if I had to pay 7cmc for a 2/1 and a 4/4 flying to win you bet your ass I would without hesitation. Is it ideal though, no...
As i said, i run similar spells and snapcaster mage is no good, the fact that you can snapcaster ponder in ritual in order to get extra deck manipulation is just OK but it is still as a 3 mana ritual and this is not what UW need imo, also snap + Day is 6 mana ritual and with 5 Wraths effect i do not think you need another 6 manas ritual Day Of Judgment. Also entreat if not top decked is a very late game spell and will often win the game if you play it correctly, i do not think pay 1U more in order to "Win more" is a decent reason for including snapcaster mage.
Many professional UW control players (Andrew Cuneo, Sam Black) which does very well with the deck are running him as a 1-off or 2-off at most. Imo it is ok as a 1-off, maybe 2-off, never more, the fact that you can draw your snapcaster mages instead of your real spells is too important and your "toolbox" is just Wrath/Counter/ponder which is not that much.
8 Win-cons is a lot ( 2 entreat 2 gideon 2 elspeth 1 Karn 1 Tamiyo ), why my question about which of them are really important and if he do not run hands with 2 or 3 finishers instead of active spells that do something.
Regards.
8 win cons is kinda a lot in a control deck, I agree. But with how the meta is I'm still trying to figure out the ideal setup as far as win cons go. 2 Entreat, 2 Gideon for sure for me, I think Tamiyo and Karn deserve a couple slots for slower decks like Solar Flare, Control, Ramp etc, and Elspeth is needed against most aggro decks I feel. I would like to streamline the deck though and make it a little more consistent. Maybe drop Karn and add a Tamiyo since they fill the same roll basically, Tamiyo is cheaper and her emblem is boss (infinite Ponder for miracles anyone?) plus she works great with Gideon and can gain major card advantage as well with her -2.
Back to Snapcaster Mage though, it's always going to come down to personal preference, but in a deck that relies so heavily on instants and sorceries I just do not see how people would think running less than 4 is ideal. Would we run 2 Stoneforge Mystic in a Caw-Blade deck? Although entirely different cards that's just how I think about it. Maximize your best cards and the ones that help with the over all strategy of the deck. SCM does this and more and is imo one of the best creatures ever printed, but that is entirely my opinion. I do not think I am a pro or better than them, but I feel that running less than a set of SCM in a control deck is just wrong and always have.
Check out my deck (click banner or link in sig), it uses Entreat and other miracles but does not rely fully on them. Entreat has won me most of my games with the deck, even as a two of. The deck is VERY solid and I haven't lost a game/match with it yet on Trice.
Playing this in my UW Planeswalker/Miracle Control deck, it is pretty fricken good. Last game I played a game against an all in miracle deck and we took turns exchanging miracles, my full suite of PW's came through though. He'd Entreat, I'd Terminus etc. back and forth. I like the miracles myself, a lot of fun imo.
What about Righteous Blow? Hits Geists and other hard to deal with dudes (opposing Delver's, Crusaders, Humans, and probably more that I am forgetting).
Here is my latest Mage Blade build, a tweaked version of the 2nd place Madison List. I originally had 2 of each sword but decided that that may be too much dedication to that strategy and dropped a FaF. I still like Dungeon Geists and Invisible Stalker as well over Phantasmal Image, but I do have Image in the board. Copying a Delver right before a flip is pretty good though so we'll see if they stay. I am not so sure I need Thought Scour in this deck (without Pikes) and might be better off with something else. I also think that Righteous Blow deserves some consideration, it deals with opposing Delvers/Abberations, Mirran Crusader, and a host of other creatures that may be troublesome for this deck. Gut Shot/Dismember is likely the right call right now though. Tamiyo, the Moon Sage does not belong in this deck imo, haven't even given it a shot. Just doesn't seem like what we should be doing. Off for more testing, thoughts or suggestions are welcome, thanks!
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
Creatures [12]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Restoration Angel
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
Removal [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares
Draw [4]
4 Brainstorm
Planeswalkers [5]
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Equipment [2]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Other [2]
2 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
3 Purify the Grave
3 Spell Pierce
2 Wrath of God
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Deckstats
I am doing a very light splash of black for Lingering Souls only. Have been reading the last few pages and am trying a mix of Vendilion Clique/Restoration Angel/Lingering Souls to see what I like best, I like the options but am not a fan of too many 2 ofs. I know some will question my PW numbers but I am testing it out to see what I think, I always lean towards maxing out Jace. I think this list shows promise but am interested in other opinions, thanks!
OK, that helps discussion! :rolleye:
I did realize that as noted and took them out. The 2nd place Madison list had them btw, without Pikes as well, but that may be what your comment was referring to, hard to tell...
Here are the cards that I feel would work well in this deck:
Obvious Card Choices:
Entreat the Angels - The meat and potatoes of a miracle deck, the main finisher and what the deck is based around. This can't be the only win condition or strategy or the deck will be too easy to hate (Hi Ratchet Bomb and graveyard hate), but should be the main focus of the deck. I think a set is the right call in a deck built around the card, but that's just me.
Ponder - Needs no introduction, the main card that is going to help us dig out and set up our miracles, obviously a four of.
Noxious Revival - This combined with Thought Scour, Forbidden Alchemy, and Jace, Memory Adept can set up miracles quite nicely. I think a four of is good here as this card will be relied upon a lot.
Forbidden Alchemy - Ponder alone can't be the only card to help us dig out our miracles. This card can help set up Noxious Revival as well as fill the graveyard for Snapcaster Mage by digging 4 deep, and can help fill your hand with those Noxious Revivals needed to set up miracles. I think a set is the right call.
Mana Leak - We need something to protect our combo, and Mana Leak is as good as any. Although Negate might be a good choice as well if you just want a counter to protect your Noxious Revival since it's a hard counter. 4 counters at least I'd say.
Jace, Memory Adept - He can send 10 cards to the yard and is an obvious choice for setting up Noxious Revival, he can also draw/discard and mill your opponent as an additional win con. I think he is worth running as a two of.
Day of Judgment - Early/mid game crowd control, this is well needed in an aggro heavy meta, Without DoJ this deck would just roll over to aggro (if it doesn't already :tongue:). I think given the need for it, 3-4 is the right call.
Terminus - What would a miracle deck be with only one miracle. It's good against most decks with it's miracle cost, and even at 6cmc without is worth having around if things get hairy. 2-3 is good imo.
Snapcaster Mage - Helps by flashing back Ponder, Alchemy and others and is a cheap chump to stall for a miracle. Can also snap miracles from the grave if you get desperate. 2-4 is good imo, he has a little less utility in this deck.
Gideon Jura - Relying solely on miracles is a good way to lose so I think uncle Gideon deserves a couple slots. Plays well with sweeps and won't get in the way of miracles.
Thought Scour - This card isn't as efficient as others at helping find miracles, but it's worth including I believe.
Manabase - I think :symw::symu: is the right call, with a light splash. White is obviously the main color here so it needs to be represented the most. Blue is the next most used color and Black is only really used for Forbidden Alchemy flash back.
Sideboard - Not there yet.
Starting Deck List:
:symu::symw: MiraControl
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Isolated Chapel
1 Drowned Catacomb
4 Plains
3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Nephelia Drownyard
2 Evolving Wilds
Draw/Filter (10)
4 Ponder
4 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Thought Scour
4 Day of Judgment
2 Terminus
Counters (4)
4 Mana Leak
Token Generation (4)
4 Entreat the Angels
Planeswalkers (4)
2 Gideon Jura
2 Jace, Memory Adept
Other (4)
4 Noxious Revival
Creatures (2)
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Timely Reinforcements
3 Flashfreeze
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Celestial Purge
2 Revoke Existence
1 Negate
1 Gut Shot
1 Dismember
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Seachrome Coast
3 Moorland Haunt
9 Island
1 Plains
Creatures (16)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Invisible Stalker
2 Dungeon Geists
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
Removal (6)
4 Vapor Snag
2 Righteous Blow
1 Dismember
1 Gut Shot
Counters (4)
4 Mana Leak
Equipment (3)
2 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Mental Misstep
2 Celestial Purge
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Divine Offering
1 Revoke Existence
1 Dissipate
Deckstats
I have touched on this issue many times, even in this thread. My theory is this, you have a card that can at instant speed play any instant/sorcery in your graveyard while giving you a decent body, how is this not bananas for a control deck and why wouldn't I want to maximize it? Counters, DoJ, Ponder, removal, etc. are all ripe for flashback. Even though it doesn't quite work this way, I think of SCM like counters 8-12, DoJ 5-8 (4-7 in mine), etc. basically he makes it so I can run a more versatile deck and not have to run as many counters etc. because I have SCM to flashback. If I have an opening hand of Mana Leak and SCM I know I have at least turns 2-4 locked down until I can draw into something else. I never understood how people don't see his value in a control deck. His ability is perfect for a permission based control deck, miacles only make him better because now we have even more reason to abuse Ponder. Why NOT take advantage and run a set?
Guess it's not really an issue, just something I am working out. I'm not sure which PW's are best in this deck, and what the best setup is yet. Gideon+Tamiyo is the core of this deck at the least imo, Elspeth is nice against a lot of decks, especially aggro, and Karn just puts games away against slower decks. They are all really good, just need to figure out who is the best right now. At this point I like the numbers how they are (2 Gideon, 2 Elspeth, 1 Karn, 1 Tamiyo). 3 DoJ is fine in this deck imo, with Terminus, Ponder, SCM etc I don't have an issue with needing more sweeps.
Not really struggling, don't think I have mulled with this deck yet because of too many expensive cards. If it becomes a problem then I will adjust my deck accordingly.
I would say the card that wins me the most so far are Gideon and Entreat. Karn has come through too and Elspeth is usually a pretty big help in getting there as well.
^ This. Although I haven't had to Snap an Entreat yet, but I have had to snap a Terminus against an opponent's Entreat. If I really had to do it though I would, winning is more important that efficiency in the late game imo, if I had to pay 7cmc for a 2/1 and a 4/4 flying to win you bet your ass I would without hesitation. Is it ideal though, no...
8 win cons is kinda a lot in a control deck, I agree. But with how the meta is I'm still trying to figure out the ideal setup as far as win cons go. 2 Entreat, 2 Gideon for sure for me, I think Tamiyo and Karn deserve a couple slots for slower decks like Solar Flare, Control, Ramp etc, and Elspeth is needed against most aggro decks I feel. I would like to streamline the deck though and make it a little more consistent. Maybe drop Karn and add a Tamiyo since they fill the same roll basically, Tamiyo is cheaper and her emblem is boss (infinite Ponder for miracles anyone?) plus she works great with Gideon and can gain major card advantage as well with her -2.
Back to Snapcaster Mage though, it's always going to come down to personal preference, but in a deck that relies so heavily on instants and sorceries I just do not see how people would think running less than 4 is ideal. Would we run 2 Stoneforge Mystic in a Caw-Blade deck? Although entirely different cards that's just how I think about it. Maximize your best cards and the ones that help with the over all strategy of the deck. SCM does this and more and is imo one of the best creatures ever printed, but that is entirely my opinion. I do not think I am a pro or better than them, but I feel that running less than a set of SCM in a control deck is just wrong and always have.
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Seachrome Coast
3 Moorland Haunt
9 Island
1 Plains
Creatures (16)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Invisible Stalker
2 Dungeon Geists
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Thought Scour
Removal (6)
4 Vapor Snag
1 Dismember
1 Gut Shot
Counters (4)
4 Mana Leak
Equipment (3)
2 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Mental Misstep
2 Celestial Purge
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Divine Offering
1 Revoke Existence
1 Dissipate
Deckstats
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Seachrome Coast
3 Moorland Haunt
9 Island
1 Plains
Creatures (16)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Invisible Stalker
2 Dungeon Geists
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
Removal (6)
4 Vapor Snag
2 Righteous Blow
1 Dismember
1 Gut Shot
Counters (4)
4 Mana Leak
Equipment (3)
2 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Mental Misstep
2 Celestial Purge
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Divine Offering
1 Revoke Existence
1 Dissipate
Deckstats