My build is doing extremely well in testing, only have lost one match, against Bant Control (which I'd say is a favor able mu for me). I've been beating Bant Control, Jund, Rx Aggro all consistently. Haven't seen much Bant Midrange or Jund Control though, so not sure there. I love my build though overall.
I am thinking about replacing Pillar of Flame with Searing Spear though. I feel the 1cmc isn't as attractive as the 3 damage at instant speed. Plus it hits everything Pillar does and a lot more (Hi Thraggy!). Thoughts?
A lot of this has been covered, but here is why I like it:
2 Damage to creature- I find that a lot of times this is better than Pillar of Flame, especially since it's an instant, we have the option of holding up for a counter instead of having to bun on our turn, possibly allowing us to get more value if they are heavily invested in a creature by the time they would get to attack. It's a great tempo play and imo much better than sorcery speed. It also combos great with Pillar if we need to 2 for 1 a Thragtusk to setup for a sweep (hooray 3 for 1's, this standard rocks! lol) etc. Gotta do what you gotta do to win...
Draw 2/Discard 2 - I find myself using this more often than the other abilites. Late game it really shines, getting rid of lands in exchange for gas. It can also be good early if you have a hand full of miracles that are useless at that point and you need land for Jace, etc. It also feeds Snapcaster Mage if you need gas but have to discard a counter, sweep etc and have an SCM to take advantage. It makes the discard much better imo.
Counter Non-Creature Spell unless opponent pays 2 - I only use this against Control mostly, but a great option to have. Especially against Bant that likes to go big and tap out for Sphinx Revelation, miracles etc. It ups my counter suite to 6 pre sb, with 2 Syncopate. Counters aren't great right now, but still nice to have the option. It also has it's uses against other decks, such as those that use Farseek etc.
Instant Speed - I mentioned the instant speed burn earlier, but this makes it better than Pillar of Flame a lot of time imo, and a better tempo play. It also helps us threaten counters to keep players from getting too greedy. With a lack of Instant speed removal available to us, the Instant speed is HUGE I feel.
Snapcaster Mage - The fact that it's snapable increases it's greatness by a lot imo, especially if you need to use it's multiple abilites. Filter eot and then flash SCM to chump+burn a Thragtusk, etc. Burn, Flash Burn again for 6 (although costing 6 mana) that fatty. The options with SCM are great imo, and feel it's one of the best cards to abuse with SCM. Oh yeah, and the filter can feed SCm as mentioned above.
Versatility - All of the above in one card for only 2cmc at instant speed makes this card as good as it is imo. It can really do a lot for this deck and is often my best card for digging for answers, threatening counters, and burning threats. Imo it's the best charm in the block, and especially for UWR control. To me it's the reason I run instead of :symg:, that and I refuse to jump on the Thragtusk bandwagon. Card is pretty broken in this standard imo, but still not ban-able yet. Although I would say the same about Jace+SCM in their heyday so, yeah.
Lists looks really solid. A few card choices that I would make differently, but when I look at the other cards you're running in conjunction with, it all makes perfect sense.
I feel like the miracle angel package is getting worse. If I were to play UWr Control tomorrow, I think I'd opt for a a build with feeling of dread/chandra/devil's play and volcanic geyser...chandra's -2 and devil's play usually spells gg
Thanks, I haven't done much with Devil's Play, my build is a little more controlling than the burn/tempo route, I hardly use burn FTW, mainly just to kill dudes. I feel like for that purpose I'm pretty covered. I'll try out the package you suggest, never been a fan of Chandra (any) really. Thanks for the feedback!
Your list seems pretty solid i do not agree with some of the card choices but i can see some reasoning for them.
How has 4 izzet charm been working out for you? Where does it shine, how do you use it etc?
The hellkite seems very out of place in this deck. It seems better in more aggressive decks. Most of the time you will be playing out a bomb like that against decks as a blocker or way to stabilize and not sneaking in 5 damage.
Izzet Charm to me is good at any point in the game, I find myself using the Draw 2/Discard 2 the most, I feel it's good especially late with a hand full of lands/dead cards and you need gas. The burn is also a nice option if really needed. There are times where a 2-1 is needed and it helps to have it and a Pillar for Thragtusk etc. An extra counter against Control (especially Bant that likes to tap out) never hurts either. I think it's one of the best cards in UWR myself and it's one of my most Snapable cards I'd say. Falshing for a chump block into an Izzet Charm for burn is also a nice option to have if needed.
As far as Thundermaw Hellkite, it's more about beats, I use him after I have controlled the board and need to switch to beatdown, he can def eat removal though and it happens often, but if he sticks he packs a punch. There are likely better control finishers, especially since I am not really burning my opponent much, such as Angel of Serenity, Drogskol Reaver, etc, but I like him if I need to win quickly. I do like the idea of Lone Revenant in the board at least, as a Hexproof dude that also can gain a lot of CA. Might play with it, but so far Hellkite has worked for his role.
My list has tested really well so far and seems good against Bant Control and Jund, as well as aggro. I haven't lost much with it that's for sure, Midrange decks with high threat density give me the most trouble. Thanks for the thoughts!
Here is my UWR control list. The main differences in other builds is that I opted for Izzet Charm instead of Think Twice, I like the options better, especially countering non-creature spells, burn is always nice in this deck and can help 2 for 1 if absolutely needed in a game. Adding it also increases the counters from a mere 2 to a much better 6. The filtering could also help out a lot in the late game, discard 2 lands and draw Jace or a finisher etc. I went with less miracles in my build, without Ponder or other ways to manipulate them I just don't like having to rely on a miracle. I like Supreme Verdict better against a lot of decks (minus Vamps, but I feel I have plenty for them). I still don't feel 4 Jace, Architect of Thought is absolutely necessary in this meta, but could try it. I like having at least 2 creature finishers and went with Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius and Thundermaw Hellkite to end games quickly or turn around a bad board. This deck doesn't have a lot for Thragtusk pre board, Detention Sphere is about it, will have to 2 for 1 (and maybe 3 for 1) a lot which is the problem facing Thragtusk of course.
The main thing I did was main decked a Sword of Feast and Famine, mainly because I love this card and it's relevent against a lot of the meta I feel, having protection from & :symg:. I also went with a second Elspeth, Knight Errant in the main, she does everything I want at that point in the game and then some. I dropped I was running for Lingering Souls, I like what Elspeth does better. I also went with a 3/3 spilt between Wasteland and Mishra's Factory so that I have more ways to mess with my opponent, would like to find room in the sb for a Crucible of Worlds but am having trouble deciding what to take out Path to Exile seems like the only choice but don't like that idea. I also added Supreme Verdict, Rest in Peace, and Detention Sphere to the sb. Thoughts?
If we need a nice mid range creature, why look any further than Geist of Saint Traft? For only 3cmc he fills that role well, is easy to protect with counters while casting (3cmc is much better than 7cmc in this regard), smashes for 6, has Hexproof, is good early or later and can help as race slow decks if needed or play control. For 7cmc (the same as our other finishers) we can Supreme Verdict and drop him the same turn ftw. Seems good if people think we need something like Thragtusk. Just because we can go 3 color doesn't mean we should, UW has everything we need without giving up anything (Ghost Quarter, Consistency etc.).
And my list so far has done well against Vampires, especially post board with all of the exile cards and sweeps to clean up, can't forget counters either.
Im liking this list. I do not think drogskol reaver will be the bomb of choice, but the list is solid so far. I feel the deck will want some sort of early removal. The permission right now i do not think will be that great. A lot of the decks will be aggro decks/zombies all of which permission will be very bad.
Thanks Helix, good to see you here bro! What would you recommend instead? Would love to see what you're thinking.
And the best answer to Thragtusk hasn't been mentioned yet, good ol fashioned counters.
Prove my point wrong. I have shown an advantage to running them over the guildgates and that evolving wilds seems to me to be a far better card choice. And just because Control can afford to have a slower mana base doesn't mean we should deliberately ignore better alternatives. And as far as the "don't like them, don't run them" this is the competitive forum and finding the absolute best card choices is kinda a big deal.
Talonxxx is right, this is a competitive forum and finding the best cards to run IS what we should be doing. With that said I don't think it's a matter of Evolving Wilds vs Azorius Guidgate, as much as Guildgate vs. extra basics and Wilds vs other colorless lands such as Ghost Quarter for example, and how many colorless you feel is right. Let me break this dowm using my list as an example:
Azorious Guildgate vs. Basics (Island/Plains) - It is true that true that CIPT lands aren't usually in competitive lists for a reason, if you get a hand with any three of Azorius Guildgate, Glacial Fortress, etc your going to be behind most of the time, even in a control deck, and most likely will need to mulligan. Does that happen a lot, probably not but it's worth considering and imo may be worth it's exclusion if it increases the mulligan rates even a small amount. My particular list has 11 basics which is generally plenty for Glacial Fortress to come in untapped, so that isn't an issue. I have 16 sources, 15 Sources, and 5 colorless, if I dropped the Guildgate's for an extra basic of each color I would have 15:symu: 14:symw: which is still plenty for this deck imo.
My conclusion: With the fact that it comes into play tapped, can increase Mulligan rates, the fact we we have plenty of each color with/without it, I don't think the risk is worth the small reward, minimal as it is. I will be dropping them in my list.
Evolving Wilds vs. other Colorless Utility Lands (and how many to run) - Most competitive control lists (in any format) I have seen or built there are usually 4-6 colorless lands in the deck max. Myself in this list I am comfortable with 5 because I don't want to be held up playing Dissipate, Entreat the Angels, Supreme Verdict, etc etc. I think you can go with at/under under 6 and be fine though. As far as which to run I think at least 3 Ghost Quarter's are ideal because we want to be able to answer manlands and other utility lands like Nephelia Drownyard, mess with fragile mana bases when we are ahead, take advantage of decks that rely on less mana but multiple colors. I think that as a control deck the ability to mess with the opponents mana base is vital, especially if they are already struggling and stuck in stage one (mana screwed, can't play their spells). I might try 4 and see if it messes with my ability to cast the more intensive stuff but am happy at 3 now.
Evolving Wilds on the other hand is another inclusion of mine because it thins the deck (although minimally), can shuffle after a Terminus, can fetch that extra needed for Entreat the Angels, or that extra needed for the Dissipate in hand. It is not the best fetch ever since whatever it fetches CIPT, in fact it kinda sucks in comparison to Zendikar fetches such as Marsh Flats, but it's what we have and it works so I include 2. I think other inclusions for colorless lands would be 1 of's and would prefer them as an extra, not a replacement for the others and a personal taste. These include Haunted Fengraf and Moorland Haunt off the top of my head. I do think Fengraf looks nice, especially when both Drogskol Reaver's etc. are sitting in the GY after playing a deck, but this won't happen a lot and most of the time so it's use is limited imo, but it may be worth trying at least. We don't really run enough for Moorland Haunt imo, and we aren't really trying to mill anyone and most of us aren't running so Drownyard doesn't seem as good in this deck either.
My Conclusion: I personally like my colorless package as it stands and feel it's the ideal suite for this deck at 5 colorless, I would only add another Ghost Quarter or maybe try a Haunted Fengraf as the 6th colorless land if anything. Evolving Wilds does enough to warrant it's inclusion in the colorless suite as well imo.
My overall conclusion on the debate - Evolving Wilds is better than Azorius Guildgate (which I will be dropping), even though they aren't really comparable since they provide different things for the deck. Competitive lists limit there CIPT lands generally and so should we, especially since we don't need the extra color fixing. The benefits of Wilds are worth it's inclusion so it should be a default part part of the colorless package and our mana base.
I will be updating the primer with this info and the list as well. /Discussion and move on pretty please!
I'm sorry, I thought this was a control deck, not a tempo/aggro deck like Delver that would actually be hurt by running cipt lands, this discussion is virtually irrelevant and we have wasted a whole page on it. Don't like em, don't run em, simple. I think we should move on to more important matters myself...
I think both Evolving Wilds and Azorius Guildgate are good and run both. Wilds thins the deck and shuffles, Guildgate is an extra dual land which never hurts, and it can easily be played around with it's cipt. Sure it's not the best dual ever, but it does it's job and is worth inclusion imo.
Let's discuss something else such as match-ups. I haven't tested much but what do you guys feel this decks best/worst match-ups are?
So far I have been trying to test against BR Zombies and USA Delver (my list) and my list has done well, I need to test against Jund Control, Bant Midrange coming up though.
I am thinking about replacing Pillar of Flame with Searing Spear though. I feel the 1cmc isn't as attractive as the 3 damage at instant speed. Plus it hits everything Pillar does and a lot more (Hi Thraggy!). Thoughts?
2 Damage to creature- I find that a lot of times this is better than Pillar of Flame, especially since it's an instant, we have the option of holding up for a counter instead of having to bun on our turn, possibly allowing us to get more value if they are heavily invested in a creature by the time they would get to attack. It's a great tempo play and imo much better than sorcery speed. It also combos great with Pillar if we need to 2 for 1 a Thragtusk to setup for a sweep (hooray 3 for 1's, this standard rocks! lol) etc. Gotta do what you gotta do to win...
Draw 2/Discard 2 - I find myself using this more often than the other abilites. Late game it really shines, getting rid of lands in exchange for gas. It can also be good early if you have a hand full of miracles that are useless at that point and you need land for Jace, etc. It also feeds Snapcaster Mage if you need gas but have to discard a counter, sweep etc and have an SCM to take advantage. It makes the discard much better imo.
Counter Non-Creature Spell unless opponent pays 2 - I only use this against Control mostly, but a great option to have. Especially against Bant that likes to go big and tap out for Sphinx Revelation, miracles etc. It ups my counter suite to 6 pre sb, with 2 Syncopate. Counters aren't great right now, but still nice to have the option. It also has it's uses against other decks, such as those that use Farseek etc.
Instant Speed - I mentioned the instant speed burn earlier, but this makes it better than Pillar of Flame a lot of time imo, and a better tempo play. It also helps us threaten counters to keep players from getting too greedy. With a lack of Instant speed removal available to us, the Instant speed is HUGE I feel.
Snapcaster Mage - The fact that it's snapable increases it's greatness by a lot imo, especially if you need to use it's multiple abilites. Filter eot and then flash SCM to chump+burn a Thragtusk, etc. Burn, Flash Burn again for 6 (although costing 6 mana) that fatty. The options with SCM are great imo, and feel it's one of the best cards to abuse with SCM. Oh yeah, and the filter can feed SCm as mentioned above.
Versatility - All of the above in one card for only 2cmc at instant speed makes this card as good as it is imo. It can really do a lot for this deck and is often my best card for digging for answers, threatening counters, and burning threats. Imo it's the best charm in the block, and especially for UWR control. To me it's the reason I run
Thanks, I haven't done much with Devil's Play, my build is a little more controlling than the burn/tempo route, I hardly use burn FTW, mainly just to kill dudes. I feel like for that purpose I'm pretty covered. I'll try out the package you suggest, never been a fan of Chandra (any) really. Thanks for the feedback!
Izzet Charm to me is good at any point in the game, I find myself using the Draw 2/Discard 2 the most, I feel it's good especially late with a hand full of lands/dead cards and you need gas. The burn is also a nice option if really needed. There are times where a 2-1 is needed and it helps to have it and a Pillar for Thragtusk etc. An extra counter against Control (especially Bant that likes to tap out) never hurts either. I think it's one of the best cards in UWR myself and it's one of my most Snapable cards I'd say. Falshing for a chump block into an Izzet Charm for burn is also a nice option to have if needed.
As far as Thundermaw Hellkite, it's more about beats, I use him after I have controlled the board and need to switch to beatdown, he can def eat removal though and it happens often, but if he sticks he packs a punch. There are likely better control finishers, especially since I am not really burning my opponent much, such as Angel of Serenity, Drogskol Reaver, etc, but I like him if I need to win quickly. I do like the idea of Lone Revenant in the board at least, as a Hexproof dude that also can gain a lot of CA. Might play with it, but so far Hellkite has worked for his role.
My list has tested really well so far and seems good against Bant Control and Jund, as well as aggro. I haven't lost much with it that's for sure, Midrange decks with high threat density give me the most trouble. Thanks for the thoughts!
You are right, fixed above, thanks!
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
3 Plains
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Desolate Lighthouse
Instants (14)
4 Azorius Charm
4 Izzet Charm
4 Searing Spear
2 Dissipate
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Creatures (4)
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
Enchantments (4)
4 Detention Sphere
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Dissipate
2 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Negate
2 Rest in Peace
2 Terminus
Deckstats
Revision History:
1.1 -4 Pillar of Flame, +4 Searing Spear
1.2 -2 Syncopate, +2 Dissipate
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Clifftop Retreat
4 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
3 Plains
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Desolate Lighthouse
Sorceries (11)
4 Pillar of Flames
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Izzet Charm
4 Azorius Charm
2 Syncopate
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Creatures (4)
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Miv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
Enchantments (4)
4 Detention Sphere
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Dissipate
2 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Negate
2 Rest in Peace
2 Terminus
Deckstats
Here is my UWR control list. The main differences in other builds is that I opted for Izzet Charm instead of Think Twice, I like the options better, especially countering non-creature spells, burn is always nice in this deck and can help 2 for 1 if absolutely needed in a game. Adding it also increases the counters from a mere 2 to a much better 6. The filtering could also help out a lot in the late game, discard 2 lands and draw Jace or a finisher etc. I went with less miracles in my build, without Ponder or other ways to manipulate them I just don't like having to rely on a miracle. I like Supreme Verdict better against a lot of decks (minus Vamps, but I feel I have plenty for them). I still don't feel 4 Jace, Architect of Thought is absolutely necessary in this meta, but could try it. I like having at least 2 creature finishers and went with Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius and Thundermaw Hellkite to end games quickly or turn around a bad board. This deck doesn't have a lot for Thragtusk pre board, Detention Sphere is about it, will have to 2 for 1 (and maybe 3 for 1) a lot which is the problem facing Thragtusk of course.
Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome, thanks!
:symu::symw: Stoneblade
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Island
1 Plains
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
Creatures [10]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
Planeswalkers [6]
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Removal [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares
Draw [4]
4 Brainstorm
Equipment [3]
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Path to Exile
3 Rest In Peace
3 Spell Pierce
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Detention Sphere
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Deckstats
The main thing I did was main decked a Sword of Feast and Famine, mainly because I love this card and it's relevent against a lot of the meta I feel, having protection from
And my list so far has done well against Vampires, especially post board with all of the exile cards and sweeps to clean up, can't forget counters either.
Thanks Helix, good to see you here bro! What would you recommend instead? Would love to see what you're thinking.
And the best answer to Thragtusk hasn't been mentioned yet, good ol fashioned counters.
Talonxxx is right, this is a competitive forum and finding the best cards to run IS what we should be doing. With that said I don't think it's a matter of Evolving Wilds vs Azorius Guidgate, as much as Guildgate vs. extra basics and Wilds vs other colorless lands such as Ghost Quarter for example, and how many colorless you feel is right. Let me break this dowm using my list as an example:
Azorious Guildgate vs. Basics (Island/Plains) - It is true that true that CIPT lands aren't usually in competitive lists for a reason, if you get a hand with any three of Azorius Guildgate, Glacial Fortress, etc your going to be behind most of the time, even in a control deck, and most likely will need to mulligan. Does that happen a lot, probably not but it's worth considering and imo may be worth it's exclusion if it increases the mulligan rates even a small amount. My particular list has 11 basics which is generally plenty for Glacial Fortress to come in untapped, so that isn't an issue. I have 16
My conclusion: With the fact that it comes into play tapped, can increase Mulligan rates, the fact we we have plenty of each color with/without it, I don't think the risk is worth the small reward, minimal as it is. I will be dropping them in my list.
Evolving Wilds vs. other Colorless Utility Lands (and how many to run) - Most competitive control lists (in any format) I have seen or built there are usually 4-6 colorless lands in the deck max. Myself in this list I am comfortable with 5 because I don't want to be held up playing Dissipate, Entreat the Angels, Supreme Verdict, etc etc. I think you can go with at/under under 6 and be fine though. As far as which to run I think at least 3 Ghost Quarter's are ideal because we want to be able to answer manlands and other utility lands like Nephelia Drownyard, mess with fragile mana bases when we are ahead, take advantage of decks that rely on less mana but multiple colors. I think that as a control deck the ability to mess with the opponents mana base is vital, especially if they are already struggling and stuck in stage one (mana screwed, can't play their spells). I might try 4 and see if it messes with my ability to cast the more intensive stuff but am happy at 3 now.
Evolving Wilds on the other hand is another inclusion of mine because it thins the deck (although minimally), can shuffle after a Terminus, can fetch that extra
My Conclusion: I personally like my colorless package as it stands and feel it's the ideal suite for this deck at 5 colorless, I would only add another Ghost Quarter or maybe try a Haunted Fengraf as the 6th colorless land if anything. Evolving Wilds does enough to warrant it's inclusion in the colorless suite as well imo.
My overall conclusion on the debate - Evolving Wilds is better than Azorius Guildgate (which I will be dropping), even though they aren't really comparable since they provide different things for the deck. Competitive lists limit there CIPT lands generally and so should we, especially since we don't need the extra color fixing. The benefits of Wilds are worth it's inclusion so it should be a default part part of the colorless package and our mana base.
I will be updating the primer with this info and the list as well. /Discussion and move on pretty please!
Let's discuss something else such as match-ups. I haven't tested much but what do you guys feel this decks best/worst match-ups are?
So far I have been trying to test against BR Zombies and USA Delver (my list) and my list has done well, I need to test against Jund Control, Bant Midrange coming up though.