I am particularly a fan of Thundermaw Hellkite/bonfire of the damned in Red and Sigarda, Host of Herons/Garruk Relentless in green (Not forgetting Thragtusk, but I like evasive damage in control) with black for lingering souls being the most interesting choice as far as other colors, but I think that it will take some heavy discussion to not have this thread pulled in every which way possible with all the different potential variants of 'the same' deck.
Edit: I forgot to mention that I think the thread will spiral out of control with too many different perspectives on what each additional color would add. I prefer keeping things simple in my list till something shows up or is discovered that becomes a common sense inclusion in blue control.
I agree, UW is definitely the shell here, anything else would be a splash imo and the focus here should be on UWx Control. There are other threads for all out Grixis/Bant/Esper archetypes.
How heavy do you believe the concept of reducing the potential for blow-outs to removal to be (for threats that arent Angel of Serenity)? Because magic as of late has shown me that there are very few cases where creature finishers are necessary and only ones with value in their effects are worth the risk.
With that in mind I also have an added personal quirk for not liking large casting cost creatures in my control decks, so while I understand the value of Angel of Serenity I've not warmed up to it. I'm more of a small creature effect guy so Restoration Angel and Lyev Skyknight with a singleton Entreat the Angels seem more my cup of tea
I guess as a traditional control player I am always looking for the fatty that if you untap with you win, I feel that Drogskol Reaver fills that role with it's damage/lifelink and especially it's card draw, you untap with it you have virtually won. I do wish it was a little harder to remove myself, that has usually been the foil to my game plan. I fill like Control needs that role though to be viable, an endgame that trumps others, otherwise what's the point? Not sure Entreat the Angels fills that role enough for me, plus we need versatility and a backup plan which is why I chose both. I can also see the argument for why Serenity Angel would be better in this deck because of it's etb ability, but I like the draw meself. I guess to answer your question (if I am understanding correctly) is that I feel the high cost trump is needed.
I like the reaver over the new angel simply because if I gain cards/life off of the reaver and it is removed, I'm still up something. The angel is less appealing in that regard. However, I accept that I may be wrong here.
I'm also running righteous blow over azorious charm, as I don't think I want most of those effects. The blow is a bad shock, but it still comes down early and plays nice with SCM.
I prefer evolving wilds to azorious guildgate because it improves the speed of hands that have a glacial fortress, as the wilds will allow you play the fortress untapped.
I also acknowledge that a third color may be where I end up, but I think I'll start with two and then go from there. Essentially, I feel like starting with two color is part of my process. Furthermore, the addition of the third color would force ghost quarter out of the list, which is a concession to cavern.
I have a hypothesis that, with counter being seen as weak, people are going to be less likely to play cavern if they don't need the manafixing, which could make countering somewhat viable.
I may eventually switch to R/W/U, due to some strong incentives.
First off, glad to have you! List looks good, I am not a fan of Azorious Keyrune in this deck mainly because we don't need the color fixing, and on turn 3 we don't really need to ramp into anything 5cmc and most of the time I would rather have counter/draw mana up myself, but this is just my opinion. Righteous Blow vs Azorius Charm is obviously a personal choice, but a bad one imo (no offense). Blow has a attacking creature clause, only deals 2 damage, Charm gives us 3 valuable options that include removing a threat while causing your opponent to miss a draw, and obviously the option to draw a card or add lifelink (which could actually be very relevant) plus it's Snapable to do it again. I think Charm is what makes this deck viable honestly. Much better imo. Hope this isn't harsh!
I like it a lot, it has the strengths of red with the bonuses of white (Geist of Saint Traft, Azorius Charm, Restoration Angel). I might need to be sold on Desperate Ravings over Thought Scour, and I would like to fit a 3rd Runchanter's Pike if I am going with Scour. What I don't like about Ravings is that you'r paying 2 plus a card to net a card while losing a card at random, plus Scour feeds Pike. 22 spells seems ok, could always use more though. Mana base is based off of Swiftyman's, but seems solid so far. The sideboard I just threw together based on the weaknesses of the deck, which I feel to be mid-range/combo strategies, but with little testing and an unknown meta I have no idea. I will definitely mess around with it. I like this list though, it can goldfish turn 4 and can be just as quick if not quicker than old Delver with all of the burn, but not as consistent without the deck manipulation obviously. Snapcaster Mage really shines in a deck like this too, a lot of synergy. Hope this belongs here...
Sorry if it's been asked before but what do you guys think about adding white for Azorius Charm? Could be this years Vapor Snag imo (although the extra white hurts that comparison), plus it has some nice options such as cantrip and life link. Just an idea, I played Delver last year mostly.
I hear ya, I don't want to be one of those people which is why I am curious to see some lists. Not really wanting to go full Bant/Grixis/Esper with my list yet but can definitely see splashing. For me I think red is the most appealing, not sure Lingering Souls is what this deck needs, Thragtusk is undeniably good in this deck though (although maybe a bit weak for a control finisher imo), but the cmc is nice and the life gain could seriously help against Bonfire, etc. Played my first game against Jund and unfortunately punted when I should have won, let him kill my Jace with a creature I had multiple answers to (2 Verdict in hand, Terminus and Entreat in the GY, ugh), he had me at 2 for most of the game and was able to remove my first Reaver with the Black sweep (can't remember name) and then Bonfire me after several turns of draw go and me top decking my last Reaver. If I would have protected Jace I would have probably won, but Bonfire put a hurting on me. It was a fun game, need to get back on an MTGO this year for better testing of matches.
Well consistancy really isn't an issue with all the mana fixing availible. Going 3-4 colors in control is really going to be the norm.
Bant has Thragtusk and our lovely hexproof angel
Grixis has access to Niv Mizzet, Gisela, and the best Charm
Esper gives you Lingering Souls and some good targeted removal options
BUG + RBG will have access to the best removal (Liliana, Bore, Curse, and Decay)
As for Witchbane, it's a really great card. Don't underestimate it! I actually had someone attempt to cast Bonfire with it on the field... they had to target themselves since they couldn't target me. Classic.
Personally, being a control player, I wouldn't think of just going UW. Nor would I run that much countermagic in this day and age. I don't run a single main deck counter anymore, and haven't in months.
What's your list look like? I think Grixis+W is a little out there for me, same with the other color combos if you mean adding them to the UW deck for 4 colors. I can see a splash for green/red/black though for any of the cards you mentioned above, but still am not sure it's worth it without seeing a list and testing. I am happy with mine currently and don't have the desire for a third color atm personally but am open to trying it out.
Thanks for the feedback. I think the finisher is a matter of opinion and do have the Angel in the board, and I think it is pretty close myself. I feel that the card advantage is better than the removal in my particular build but will try out the angel as well, maybe a miser. One of each might be good too, who knows... As far as Syncopate goes, I knew I would catch some heat for it, but if you really want to get into it I will (I like debates). Syncopate to me is a better Mana Leak in almost every way, it's a catch all counter for as low as 2cmc, but also doesn't have the same predictability and isn't as easy to play around it that Leak had because of it's flexability in casting/negate cost, see playing agaisnt ramp strategies last year as an example on why Syncopate >Leak. As early as turn 2 we have a hard counter that is relevent for the rest of the game, something Mana Leak couldn't even say, if it could speak that is. Plus it exiles the card just like Dissipate, but has the potential to be cheaper and easier to cast since it doesn't require UU. I would rather have Syncopate in my opening hand most of the time over Dissipate which could be screwy with certain hands (Colorless/Plains/Island hand for instance). But this is just my opinion.
What are the advantages, besides the obvious point of better mana, to running UW as opposed to UWx? It seems like you could gain a lot by dipping into other colors.
Good question, I haven't tested other colors with it myself, I feel like Blue and White have everything I need. Red has Counterflux etc but I'm not sure it's worth splashing for. What were you thinking? I am usually more into 2 color decks for mana and consistency myself, although that doesn't seem to be an issue this year.
Thanks, I'll mess around with it and see if I come up with something better. I liked his sigs, those are nice. I can tell what you mean, more focused on one card. I guess I was trying to cram as many cards from my deck in as possible. Thanks!
Since pretty much the beginning of Magic there have always been 3 main types of decks, aggro, combo, and control, each with there own strengths and weaknesses against the others. Traditionally Aggro beats control, control beats combo, and combo beats aggro in a somewhat rock paper scissors game, although there are exceptions as well as blending of the strategies (agrro/combo for instance). U/W Control is a deck that likes to get ahead on card advantage as early as possible, control the board with sweeps and spot removal, control what your opponant can play with counter magic, all while eventually setting up for the end game where you trump your oppionant with card advantage and finsihers that are hard to remove and also provide card advantage in some way. The main idea is to stall your opponants strategy until you can set yourself up for an inevitable win. With the latest set Return to Ravnica we now have plenty of tools to execute this game plan and I believe that UW Control will be a pillar of the RtR standard. My build in particular takes advantage of the cheap card draw as well as Planeswalkers and finishers that can also bury your opponant in card advantage.
Card Advantage:
The main strategy of this deck is burying your opponant in card advantage as early as turn 2 with 4 Think Twice and 4 Azorius Charm . 3 Jace, Architect of Thought provide arguably the decks best card advantage engine, and I would strongly consider 4 if this guy blows up like he should (didn't think much at first, but my fave Jace since Jace, the Mindsculptor). 2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage come in at the 5 spot which also provide card advantage and great synergy in the deck, as well as additional win-con, and 2 Drogskol Reaver come in after turn 7 providing a huge card advantage while also smashing for 6 each turn. I also am testing a miser Sphinx's Revelation, with all of the other CA I think one of is plenty but this is debatable. The synergy between the above is amazing, any combination of Jace/Tamiyo+Reaver and it's going to be tough for your opponent to come back. This deck has early card advantage as well as in the late game where this deck really shines. I have a hard time thinking of any deck that can compete with it in the late game as far as CA goes.
Creatures/Win Conditions:
2 Snapcaster Mage is a must at least with the counters, sweeps, and especially Azorius Charm imo, even with [CARD]Dryad Militant
[/CARD] and other potential hosers I think the risk is worth the reward in this deck. Plus there is always the sideboard if he's vanilla. As mentioned above 2 Drogskol Reaver also is the decks fatty of choice while providing a huge card advantage. 2 Entreat the Angels are also there to provide an additional win-con and virtual card advantage (multiple bodies for one card) as early as turn 5 (although it obviously isn't ideal until at least turn 7 when you can get at least 2 angels), 2 seems right for now. Overall the win-cons provide a fast clock for the most part and fulfill the role of traditional control win-cons (fatty with evasion/ca) and provide tons of card advantage. I went light on the win-cons overall because you could also include the planeswalkers as win-cons, especially Tamiyo, but this is debatable. I would consider an additional Angel of Serenity or Sphinx of Uthuun possibly, or in place of Reaper for testing but have them in the sideboard for now.
Permission:
Permission I feel will be the most controversial and debatable part of my deck. I look at Syncopate like this years Mana Leak the best general catch all counter (at 2 cmc+) we have imo, and as such I think a set is the right call. It's relevant as early as turn two and will keep players guessing throughout the entire game and potentially stall them as they have to play around it while we set up our CA engines. I feel like it's even more flexible with it's casting cost and it exiles the spell which is extremely relevant against a lot of decks, including the mirror and Delver. 2 Dissipate are the hard counter of choice and also relevent for it's exile ability, 1 Negate is there as another 2cmc hard counter. I usually like at least 7 counters in my control decks and with all of the card advantage and Snappy that should be plenty.
Removal:
3 Supreme Verdict, a better but somewhat harder to cast Day of Judgment that can't be countered, sounds perfect in this deck to me. 2 Detention Sphere doesn't seem like enough, this is Oblivion Ring on crack and probably going to start a war similar to the ORing during Jace 2's prime, although it can't target other Sphere's which may limit that potential, but that is entirely my speculation. 2 Terminus seems good, not as strong with the first casting which makes me like Verdict better, but once it hit's the graveyard it's amazing, plus it's a must against other late game strategies. I would also consider the 4 Azorius Charm's as removal, but more of a tempo play. Overall I may have a little too much removal and may be too reactive, but with the unknown meta I'd rather be safer than sorry. This is probably the area other than the sideboard that is the most likely to change.
Mana Base:
My build is pretty basic, the main thing that might be different than others is the colorless choices, 3 Ghost Quarter's for manlands and screwing fragile mana bases, 2 Evolving Wilds are there to mana fix and thin the deck, not my favorite but it does it's job. Going to three colors seems like a good option now as well with with all of the mana fixing and every color having its perks in control. I think it's safe to say that UW is the core of the deck and has plenty to offer without needing a third color, bit this is entirely my opinion, this section will likely be updated as the plot thickens and I changed the title of the thread to U/W/(x) control to facilitate all discussion.
Sideboard:
I just threw this together based on other lists and weeknesses in my deck. 4 Geist of Saint Traft for a post board switch out if I need to go more mid-range, or for against the mirror, a set might be much but we'll see. 2 Rest in Peace for graveyard hosing, haven't looked to see if there is a better gy hate card so this will do for now. 2 Nevermore for screwing with your opponent's strategy in a more proactive way. 2 Oblivion Ring as an additional catch-all removal, also might be needed against Detention Sphere. 2 Witchbane Orb for those pesky red decks I guess, stole from another list, seems good though. I have 1 Supreme Verdict in case 3 isn't enough in game 1. For additional win-cons post board I also have 1 Angel of Serenity and 1 Sphinx of Uthuun.
Not Included/Other Choices:
The only card I can think of that people will think I am crazy for not including is Azorious Keyrune. The mana fixing seems nice but I don't need to be ramping turn 3 really and would usually rather hold mana up for counters/draw/removal. Doesn't seem ideal in my version at least but I am open to discussion.
This is a work in progress so let me know if there is something I missed or you disagree with, let's make this deck a pillar of the RtR standard!
Side note - although this uses the same colors and some of the same cards as UW Miracles, they are very different decks. This is a traditional U/W Control deck where as Miracles is focused on, well, miracles. I also feel that this is at least a developing competitive deck and feel it belongs here instead of in Standard Deck Creation where there is a similar thread.
I just designed a new sig for U/W Control in RTR standard, I like it but feel like there is a lot going on and the text doesn't pop as musch as I like, Jace I feel needs to stick out more too. Interested to get feedback on it, thanks!
Yup you just have to watch that you don't draw your library.
On Sphinx's revelation, I think people are seriously underestimating. It's Rakdos' return's opposite, granted for one more mana but instant! Have counters open and EoT draw some cards and gain some life. Should be at least a 2 off imo.
On the planeswalkers, I tested Jace and found him good, at worst he draws all the attention to him for a turn or 2, which gives us more time to stabilize.
In solitaire it hasn't been an issue as far as drawing too much, as soon as the official RTR patch hits Trice I will test for real tough. I was never a fan of one of's until Chapin sold me on them in Next Level Magic which is part of the reason I went one of, you have your best chance of drawing it in your opening hand and after that any additional copies add a small increase in the chance you will draw them afterwards, and with all of the other cheap draw it shouldn't be hard to find later in the game when it's needed. Will mess around with it though. Thanks for your thoughts!
Index exhanges a card in your hand for not topping cards you can't play. Not having a card in your hand (ie. playing Index) is better than drawing a Miracle with no land to use it properly
^^
That's not really Miracles. Terminus is a general sweeper, and the Angels could really be replaced by any kind of bomb, Entreat just happens to be incredibly good.
Meh, it's UW Control with Miracles, seems like it fits here as well since there is no UW Control home...
Card Advantage - The main strategy of this deck is burying your opponant in card advantage as early as turn 2 with 4 Think Twice and 4 Azorius Charm , 3 Jace, Architect of Thought provide arguably the decks best card advantage engine, I would strongly consider 4 if this guy blows up like he should (didn't think much at first, but my fave Jace since Jace, the Mindsculptor) 2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage come in at the 5 spot, and 2 Drogskol Reaver come in after turn 7 providing a huge card advantage while also smashing for 6 each turn, I also am testing a miser Sphinx's Revelation, with all of the other CA I think one of is plenty. The synergy between the above is amazing, any combination of Jace/Tamiyo+Reaver and it's going to be tough to come back. This deck has early card advantage as well as in the late game where this deck really shines. I have a hard time thinking of any deck that can compete with it in the late game as far as CA goes.
Creatures/Win Conditions - 2 Snapcaster Mage is a must at least with the counters, sweeps, and especially Azorius Charm imo, even with [CARD]Dryad Militant
[/CARD] and other potential hosers I think the risk is worth the reward in this deck, and there is always the sideboard if he's vanilla. As mentioned above 2 Drogskol Reaver also is the decks fatty of choice while providing a huge card advantage, and 2 Entreat the Angels are also there to provide an addition win-con and virtual card advantage (multiple bodies for one card) as early as turn 5, although it obviously isn't ideal until at least turn 7 when you can get at least 2 angels, once it hits the graveyard though the beats get bananas, b-a-n-a-anas, 2 seems right for now. Overall the win-cons provide a fast clock for the most part and fulfill the role of traditional control win-cons (fatty with evasion/ca) and provide tons of card advantage. I went light on the win-cons overall because you could also include the planeswalkers as win-cons, although that is debateable. I would consider an additional Angel of Serenity or Sphinx of Uthuun possibly, but have them in the sideboard for now.
Permission - Permission I feel will be the most controversial and debatable part of my deck. I look at Syncopate like this years Mana Leak the best general catch all counter (at 2 cmc+) we have imo, and as such I think a set is the right call. It's relevant as early as turn two and will keep players guessing throughout the entire game and potentially stall them as they have to play around it while we set up our CA engines. I feel like it's even more flexible with it's casting cost and it exiles the spell which is extremely relevant against a lot of decks, including the mirror and Delver. 2 Dissipate are the hard counter of choice and also relevent for it's exile ability, 1 Negate is there as another 2cmc hard counter. I usually like at least 7 counters in my control decks and with all of the card advantage and Snappy that be plenty.
Removal - 3 Supreme Verdict, a better but somewhat harder to cast Day of Judgment that can't be countered, sound perfect to me. 2 Detention Sphere doesn't seem like enough, this is Oblivion Ring on crack and probably going to start a ear similar to the ORing during Jace 2's prime, but that is entirely my speculation. 2 Terminus seems good, not as strong the first casting which makes me like Verdict better, but once it hit's the graveyard it's amazing, plus it's a must against other late game strategies and maybe even the mirror. I would also consider the 4 Azorius Charm's as removal, but more of a tempo play. Overall I may have a little too much removal and may be too reactive, but with the unknown meta I'd rather be safer than sorry. This is probably the area other than the sideboard that is the most likely to change.
Mana Base - Pretty basic, the main thing that might be different than others is the colorless choices, 3 Ghost Quarter's for manlands and screwing fragile mana bases, 2 Evolving Wilds are there to mana fix and thin the deck, not my favorite but it does it's job.
Sideboard - I just threw this together based on other lists and weeknesses in my deck. 4 Geist of Saint Traft for a post board switch out if I need to go more mid-range, or for against the mirror, a set might be much but we'll see. 2 Rest in Peace for graveyard hosing, haven't looked to see if there is a better gy hate card so this will do for now. 2 Nevermore for screwing with your opponent's strategy in a more proactive way. 2 Oblivion Ring as an additional catch-all removal, also might be needed against Detention Sphere. 2 Witchbane Orb for those pesky red decks I guess, stole from another list, seems good though. I have 1 Supreme Verdict in case 3 isn't enough in game 1. For additional win-cons post board I also have 1 Angel of Serenity and 1 Sphinx of Uthuun.
Not Included - The only card I can think of that people will think I am crazy for not including is Azorious Keyrune. The mana fixing seems nice but I am need to be ramping turn 3 and would usually rather hold mana up for counters/draw/removal. Doesn't seem ideal in my version at least but I am open to discussion.
once again, Jland13 finds himself shuffling up a UW deck people are going to complain about :-p (long time no see)
I like your list, but I may be unjustifiably uneasy on Entreat The Angels, I still want to see just how much of a hassle it is going to be to tap out for it under normal circumstances. I think you will only hardcast it for 1 angel a majority of the time (not to say you shouldnt run it), but in that scenario Restoration Angel seems like a go-to out of the sideboard for E.O.T. tricks. Also I am kind of in love with Lyev Skyknight as a card that removes an attacker/blocker for a turn, then pushes for 3 damage OR gives you time plus a blocker on defense.
I would actually prefer something of that nature as my damage source rather that a big finisher...especially with Azorius charm being really good overall (modern control players understand some of this logic with regard to removal, and they very rarely break that logic unless it is a very dynamic creature...and Im not really keen on tapping for 7 truthfully)
Interesting, I have been away from Standard since Dark Ascension launched so haven't been up on it, got boring with Control not being very good. I feel we have some good tools now to put together a competitive deck, Jace is awesome imo. I will mess around with entreat and other finishers and also let me know what you come up with, it's still in the very early stages but is playing pretty well so far. Glad to see you too!
Card Advantage - The main strategy of this deck is burying your opponant in card advantage as early as turn 2 with 4 Think Twice and 4 Azorius Charm , 3 Jace, Architect of Thought provide arguably the decks best card advantage engine, I would strongly consider 4 if this guy blows up like he should (didn't think much at first, but my fave Jace since Jace, the Mindsculptor) 2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage come in at the 5 spot, and 2 Drogskol Reaver come in after turn 7 providing a huge card advantage while also smashing for 6 each turn, I also am testing a miser Sphinx's Revelation, with all of the other CA I think one of is plenty. The synergy between the above is amazing, any combination of Jace/Tamiyo+Reaver and it's going to be tough to come back. This deck has early card advantage as well as in the late game where this deck really shines. I have a hard time thinking of any deck that can compete with it in the late game as far as CA goes.
Creatures/Win Conditions - 2 Snapcaster Mage is a must at least with the counters, sweeps, and especially Azorius Charm imo, even with [CARD]Dryad Militant
[/CARD] and other potential hosers I think the risk is worth the reward in this deck, and there is always the sideboard if he's vanilla. As mentioned above 2 Drogskol Reaver also is the decks fatty of choice while providing a huge card advantage, and 2 Entreat the Angels are also there to provide an addition win-con and virtual card advantage (multiple bodies for one card) as early as turn 5, although it obviously isn't ideal until at least turn 7 when you can get at least 2 angels, once it hits the graveyard though the beats get bananas, b-a-n-a-anas, 2 seems right for now. Overall the win-cons provide a fast clock for the most part and fulfill the role of traditional control win-cons (fatty with evasion/ca) and provide tons of card advantage. I went light on the win-cons overall because you could also include the planeswalkers as win-cons, although that is debateable. I would consider an additional Angel of Serenity or Sphinx of Uthuun possibly, but have them in the sideboard for now.
Permission - Permission I feel will be the most controversial and debatable part of my deck. I look at Syncopate like this years Mana Leak the best general catch all counter (at 2 cmc+) we have imo, and as such I think a set is the right call. It's relevant as early as turn two and will keep players guessing throughout the entire game and potentially stall them as they have to play around it while we set up our CA engines. I feel like it's even more flexible with it's casting cost and it exiles the spell which is extremely relevant against a lot of decks, including the mirror and Delver. 2 Dissipate are the hard counter of choice and also relevent for it's exile ability, 1 Negate is there as another 2cmc hard counter. I usually like at least 7 counters in my control decks and with all of the card advantage and Snappy that be plenty.
Removal - 3 Supreme Verdict, a better but somewhat harder to cast Day of Judgment that can't be countered, sound perfect to me. 2 Detention Sphere doesn't seem like enough, this is Oblivion Ring on crack and probably going to start a ear similar to the ORing during Jace 2's prime, but that is entirely my speculation. 2 Terminus seems good, not as strong the first casting which makes me like Verdict better, but once it hit's the graveyard it's amazing, plus it's a must against other late game strategies and maybe even the mirror. I would also consider the 4 Azorius Charm's as removal, but more of a tempo play. Overall I may have a little too much removal and may be too reactive, but with the unknown meta I'd rather be safer than sorry. This is probably the area other than the sideboard that is the most likely to change.
Mana Base - Pretty basic, the main thing that might be different than others is the colorless choices, 3 Ghost Quarter's for manlands and screwing fragile mana bases, 2 Evolving Wilds are there to mana fix and thin the deck, not my favorite but it does it's job.
Sideboard - I just threw this together based on other lists and weeknesses in my deck. 4 Geist of Saint Traft for a post board switch out if I need to go more mid-range, or for against the mirror, a set might be much but we'll see. 2 Rest in Peace for graveyard hosing, haven't looked to see if there is a better gy hate card so this will do for now. 2 Nevermore for screwing with your opponent's strategy in a more proactive way. 2 Oblivion Ring as an additional catch-all removal, also might be needed against Detention Sphere. 2 Witchbane Orb for those pesky red decks I guess, stole from another list, seems good though. I have 1 Supreme Verdict in case 3 isn't enough in game 1. For additional win-cons post board I also have 1 Angel of Serenity and 1 Sphinx of Uthuun.
Not Included - The only card I can think of that people will think I am crazy for not including is Azorious Keyrune. The mana fixing seems nice but I am need to be ramping turn 3 and would usually rather hold mana up for counters/draw/removal. Doesn't seem ideal in my version at least but I am open to discussion.
I agree, UW is definitely the shell here, anything else would be a splash imo and the focus here should be on UWx Control. There are other threads for all out Grixis/Bant/Esper archetypes.
=====
I guess as a traditional control player I am always looking for the fatty that if you untap with you win, I feel that Drogskol Reaver fills that role with it's damage/lifelink and especially it's card draw, you untap with it you have virtually won. I do wish it was a little harder to remove myself, that has usually been the foil to my game plan. I fill like Control needs that role though to be viable, an endgame that trumps others, otherwise what's the point? Not sure Entreat the Angels fills that role enough for me, plus we need versatility and a backup plan which is why I chose both. I can also see the argument for why Serenity Angel would be better in this deck because of it's etb ability, but I like the draw meself. I guess to answer your question (if I am understanding correctly) is that I feel the high cost trump is needed.
=====
First off, glad to have you! List looks good, I am not a fan of Azorious Keyrune in this deck mainly because we don't need the color fixing, and on turn 3 we don't really need to ramp into anything 5cmc and most of the time I would rather have counter/draw mana up myself, but this is just my opinion. Righteous Blow vs Azorius Charm is obviously a personal choice, but a bad one imo (no offense). Blow has a attacking creature clause, only deals 2 damage, Charm gives us 3 valuable options that include removing a threat while causing your opponent to miss a draw, and obviously the option to draw a card or add lifelink (which could actually be very relevant) plus it's Snapable to do it again. I think Charm is what makes this deck viable honestly. Much better imo. Hope this isn't harsh!
USA Delver 1.0
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Clifftop Retreat
2 Island
Creatures (14)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Restoration Angel
4 Azorius Charm
4 Izzet Charm
4 Thought Scour
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Counterflux
Equipment (2)
2 Runechanter's Pike
2 Brimstone Volley
2 Detention Sphere
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Negate
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Talrand's Invocation
2 Unsummon
1 Runechanter's Pike
I like it a lot, it has the strengths of red with the bonuses of white (Geist of Saint Traft, Azorius Charm, Restoration Angel). I might need to be sold on Desperate Ravings over Thought Scour, and I would like to fit a 3rd Runchanter's Pike if I am going with Scour. What I don't like about Ravings is that you'r paying 2 plus a card to net a card while losing a card at random, plus Scour feeds Pike. 22 spells seems ok, could always use more though. Mana base is based off of Swiftyman's, but seems solid so far. The sideboard I just threw together based on the weaknesses of the deck, which I feel to be mid-range/combo strategies, but with little testing and an unknown meta I have no idea. I will definitely mess around with it. I like this list though, it can goldfish turn 4 and can be just as quick if not quicker than old Delver with all of the burn, but not as consistent without the deck manipulation obviously. Snapcaster Mage really shines in a deck like this too, a lot of synergy. Hope this belongs here...
=====
Edit:
What's your list look like? I think Grixis+W is a little out there for me, same with the other color combos if you mean adding them to the UW deck for 4 colors. I can see a splash for green/red/black though for any of the cards you mentioned above, but still am not sure it's worth it without seeing a list and testing. I am happy with mine currently and don't have the desire for a third color atm personally but am open to trying it out.
=====
Thanks for the feedback. I think the finisher is a matter of opinion and do have the Angel in the board, and I think it is pretty close myself. I feel that the card advantage is better than the removal in my particular build but will try out the angel as well, maybe a miser. One of each might be good too, who knows... As far as Syncopate goes, I knew I would catch some heat for it, but if you really want to get into it I will (I like debates). Syncopate to me is a better Mana Leak in almost every way, it's a catch all counter for as low as 2cmc, but also doesn't have the same predictability and isn't as easy to play around it that Leak had because of it's flexability in casting/negate cost, see playing agaisnt ramp strategies last year as an example on why Syncopate >Leak. As early as turn 2 we have a hard counter that is relevent for the rest of the game, something Mana Leak couldn't even say, if it could speak that is. Plus it exiles the card just like Dissipate, but has the potential to be cheaper and easier to cast since it doesn't require UU. I would rather have Syncopate in my opening hand most of the time over Dissipate which could be screwy with certain hands (Colorless/Plains/Island hand for instance). But this is just my opinion.
Good question, I haven't tested other colors with it myself, I feel like Blue and White have everything I need. Red has Counterflux etc but I'm not sure it's worth splashing for. What were you thinking? I am usually more into 2 color decks for mana and consistency myself, although that doesn't seem to be an issue this year.
Previous discussion here (started by Zer0).
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
7 Island
6 Plains
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Evolving Wilds
Draw (9)
4 Azorius Charm
4 Think Twice
1 Sphinx's Revelation
Counters (7)
4 Syncopate
2 Dissipate
1 Negate
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Detention Sphere
2 Terminus
Creatures/Win Conditions (6)
2 Drogskol Reaver
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Rest in Peace
2 Nevermore
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Angel of Serenity
1 Sphinx of Uthuun
1 Supreme Verdict
Primer:
[/CARD] and other potential hosers I think the risk is worth the reward in this deck. Plus there is always the sideboard if he's vanilla. As mentioned above 2 Drogskol Reaver also is the decks fatty of choice while providing a huge card advantage. 2 Entreat the Angels are also there to provide an additional win-con and virtual card advantage (multiple bodies for one card) as early as turn 5 (although it obviously isn't ideal until at least turn 7 when you can get at least 2 angels), 2 seems right for now. Overall the win-cons provide a fast clock for the most part and fulfill the role of traditional control win-cons (fatty with evasion/ca) and provide tons of card advantage. I went light on the win-cons overall because you could also include the planeswalkers as win-cons, especially Tamiyo, but this is debatable. I would consider an additional Angel of Serenity or Sphinx of Uthuun possibly, or in place of Reaper for testing but have them in the sideboard for now.
Side note - although this uses the same colors and some of the same cards as UW Miracles, they are very different decks. This is a traditional U/W Control deck where as Miracles is focused on, well, miracles. I also feel that this is at least a developing competitive deck and feel it belongs here instead of in Standard Deck Creation where there is a similar thread.
In solitaire it hasn't been an issue as far as drawing too much, as soon as the official RTR patch hits Trice I will test for real tough. I was never a fan of one of's until Chapin sold me on them in Next Level Magic which is part of the reason I went one of, you have your best chance of drawing it in your opening hand and after that any additional copies add a small increase in the chance you will draw them afterwards, and with all of the other cheap draw it shouldn't be hard to find later in the game when it's needed. Will mess around with it though. Thanks for your thoughts!
Edit:
I designed a new banner for this deck, thoughts?
Meh, it's UW Control with Miracles, seems like it fits here as well since there is no UW Control home...
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Azorius Guildgate
6 Island
5 Plains
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Evolving Wilds
Draw (9)
4 Azorius Charm
4 Think Twice
1 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Syncopate
2 Dissipate
1 Negate
Removal (7)
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Detention Sphere
2 Terminus
Creatures/Win Conditions (6)
2 Drogskol Reaver
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Rest in Peace
2 Nevermore
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Angel of Serenity
1 Sphinx of Uthuun
1 Supreme Verdict
Card Advantage - The main strategy of this deck is burying your opponant in card advantage as early as turn 2 with 4 Think Twice and 4 Azorius Charm , 3 Jace, Architect of Thought provide arguably the decks best card advantage engine, I would strongly consider 4 if this guy blows up like he should (didn't think much at first, but my fave Jace since Jace, the Mindsculptor) 2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage come in at the 5 spot, and 2 Drogskol Reaver come in after turn 7 providing a huge card advantage while also smashing for 6 each turn, I also am testing a miser Sphinx's Revelation, with all of the other CA I think one of is plenty. The synergy between the above is amazing, any combination of Jace/Tamiyo+Reaver and it's going to be tough to come back. This deck has early card advantage as well as in the late game where this deck really shines. I have a hard time thinking of any deck that can compete with it in the late game as far as CA goes.
Creatures/Win Conditions - 2 Snapcaster Mage is a must at least with the counters, sweeps, and especially Azorius Charm imo, even with [CARD]Dryad Militant
[/CARD] and other potential hosers I think the risk is worth the reward in this deck, and there is always the sideboard if he's vanilla. As mentioned above 2 Drogskol Reaver also is the decks fatty of choice while providing a huge card advantage, and 2 Entreat the Angels are also there to provide an addition win-con and virtual card advantage (multiple bodies for one card) as early as turn 5, although it obviously isn't ideal until at least turn 7 when you can get at least 2 angels, once it hits the graveyard though the beats get bananas, b-a-n-a-anas, 2 seems right for now. Overall the win-cons provide a fast clock for the most part and fulfill the role of traditional control win-cons (fatty with evasion/ca) and provide tons of card advantage. I went light on the win-cons overall because you could also include the planeswalkers as win-cons, although that is debateable. I would consider an additional Angel of Serenity or Sphinx of Uthuun possibly, but have them in the sideboard for now.
Permission - Permission I feel will be the most controversial and debatable part of my deck. I look at Syncopate like this years Mana Leak the best general catch all counter (at 2 cmc+) we have imo, and as such I think a set is the right call. It's relevant as early as turn two and will keep players guessing throughout the entire game and potentially stall them as they have to play around it while we set up our CA engines. I feel like it's even more flexible with it's casting cost and it exiles the spell which is extremely relevant against a lot of decks, including the mirror and Delver. 2 Dissipate are the hard counter of choice and also relevent for it's exile ability, 1 Negate is there as another 2cmc hard counter. I usually like at least 7 counters in my control decks and with all of the card advantage and Snappy that be plenty.
Removal - 3 Supreme Verdict, a better but somewhat harder to cast Day of Judgment that can't be countered, sound perfect to me. 2 Detention Sphere doesn't seem like enough, this is Oblivion Ring on crack and probably going to start a ear similar to the ORing during Jace 2's prime, but that is entirely my speculation. 2 Terminus seems good, not as strong the first casting which makes me like Verdict better, but once it hit's the graveyard it's amazing, plus it's a must against other late game strategies and maybe even the mirror. I would also consider the 4 Azorius Charm's as removal, but more of a tempo play. Overall I may have a little too much removal and may be too reactive, but with the unknown meta I'd rather be safer than sorry. This is probably the area other than the sideboard that is the most likely to change.
Mana Base - Pretty basic, the main thing that might be different than others is the colorless choices, 3 Ghost Quarter's for manlands and screwing fragile mana bases, 2 Evolving Wilds are there to mana fix and thin the deck, not my favorite but it does it's job.
Sideboard - I just threw this together based on other lists and weeknesses in my deck. 4 Geist of Saint Traft for a post board switch out if I need to go more mid-range, or for against the mirror, a set might be much but we'll see. 2 Rest in Peace for graveyard hosing, haven't looked to see if there is a better gy hate card so this will do for now. 2 Nevermore for screwing with your opponent's strategy in a more proactive way. 2 Oblivion Ring as an additional catch-all removal, also might be needed against Detention Sphere. 2 Witchbane Orb for those pesky red decks I guess, stole from another list, seems good though. I have 1 Supreme Verdict in case 3 isn't enough in game 1. For additional win-cons post board I also have 1 Angel of Serenity and 1 Sphinx of Uthuun.
Not Included - The only card I can think of that people will think I am crazy for not including is Azorious Keyrune. The mana fixing seems nice but I am need to be ramping turn 3 and would usually rather hold mana up for counters/draw/removal. Doesn't seem ideal in my version at least but I am open to discussion.
Interesting, I have been away from Standard since Dark Ascension launched so haven't been up on it, got boring with Control not being very good. I feel we have some good tools now to put together a competitive deck, Jace is awesome imo. I will mess around with entreat and other finishers and also let me know what you come up with, it's still in the very early stages but is playing pretty well so far. Glad to see you too!
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Azorius Guildgate
6 Island
5 Plains
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Evolving Wilds
Draw (9)
4 Azorius Charm
4 Think Twice
1 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Syncopate
2 Dissipate
1 Negate
Removal (7)
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Detention Sphere
2 Terminus
Creatures/Win Conditions (6)
2 Drogskol Reaver
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Rest in Peace
2 Nevermore
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Angel of Serenity
1 Sphinx of Uthuun
1 Supreme Verdict
Card Advantage - The main strategy of this deck is burying your opponant in card advantage as early as turn 2 with 4 Think Twice and 4 Azorius Charm , 3 Jace, Architect of Thought provide arguably the decks best card advantage engine, I would strongly consider 4 if this guy blows up like he should (didn't think much at first, but my fave Jace since Jace, the Mindsculptor) 2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage come in at the 5 spot, and 2 Drogskol Reaver come in after turn 7 providing a huge card advantage while also smashing for 6 each turn, I also am testing a miser Sphinx's Revelation, with all of the other CA I think one of is plenty. The synergy between the above is amazing, any combination of Jace/Tamiyo+Reaver and it's going to be tough to come back. This deck has early card advantage as well as in the late game where this deck really shines. I have a hard time thinking of any deck that can compete with it in the late game as far as CA goes.
Creatures/Win Conditions - 2 Snapcaster Mage is a must at least with the counters, sweeps, and especially Azorius Charm imo, even with [CARD]Dryad Militant
[/CARD] and other potential hosers I think the risk is worth the reward in this deck, and there is always the sideboard if he's vanilla. As mentioned above 2 Drogskol Reaver also is the decks fatty of choice while providing a huge card advantage, and 2 Entreat the Angels are also there to provide an addition win-con and virtual card advantage (multiple bodies for one card) as early as turn 5, although it obviously isn't ideal until at least turn 7 when you can get at least 2 angels, once it hits the graveyard though the beats get bananas, b-a-n-a-anas, 2 seems right for now. Overall the win-cons provide a fast clock for the most part and fulfill the role of traditional control win-cons (fatty with evasion/ca) and provide tons of card advantage. I went light on the win-cons overall because you could also include the planeswalkers as win-cons, although that is debateable. I would consider an additional Angel of Serenity or Sphinx of Uthuun possibly, but have them in the sideboard for now.
Permission - Permission I feel will be the most controversial and debatable part of my deck. I look at Syncopate like this years Mana Leak the best general catch all counter (at 2 cmc+) we have imo, and as such I think a set is the right call. It's relevant as early as turn two and will keep players guessing throughout the entire game and potentially stall them as they have to play around it while we set up our CA engines. I feel like it's even more flexible with it's casting cost and it exiles the spell which is extremely relevant against a lot of decks, including the mirror and Delver. 2 Dissipate are the hard counter of choice and also relevent for it's exile ability, 1 Negate is there as another 2cmc hard counter. I usually like at least 7 counters in my control decks and with all of the card advantage and Snappy that be plenty.
Removal - 3 Supreme Verdict, a better but somewhat harder to cast Day of Judgment that can't be countered, sound perfect to me. 2 Detention Sphere doesn't seem like enough, this is Oblivion Ring on crack and probably going to start a ear similar to the ORing during Jace 2's prime, but that is entirely my speculation. 2 Terminus seems good, not as strong the first casting which makes me like Verdict better, but once it hit's the graveyard it's amazing, plus it's a must against other late game strategies and maybe even the mirror. I would also consider the 4 Azorius Charm's as removal, but more of a tempo play. Overall I may have a little too much removal and may be too reactive, but with the unknown meta I'd rather be safer than sorry. This is probably the area other than the sideboard that is the most likely to change.
Mana Base - Pretty basic, the main thing that might be different than others is the colorless choices, 3 Ghost Quarter's for manlands and screwing fragile mana bases, 2 Evolving Wilds are there to mana fix and thin the deck, not my favorite but it does it's job.
Sideboard - I just threw this together based on other lists and weeknesses in my deck. 4 Geist of Saint Traft for a post board switch out if I need to go more mid-range, or for against the mirror, a set might be much but we'll see. 2 Rest in Peace for graveyard hosing, haven't looked to see if there is a better gy hate card so this will do for now. 2 Nevermore for screwing with your opponent's strategy in a more proactive way. 2 Oblivion Ring as an additional catch-all removal, also might be needed against Detention Sphere. 2 Witchbane Orb for those pesky red decks I guess, stole from another list, seems good though. I have 1 Supreme Verdict in case 3 isn't enough in game 1. For additional win-cons post board I also have 1 Angel of Serenity and 1 Sphinx of Uthuun.
Not Included - The only card I can think of that people will think I am crazy for not including is Azorious Keyrune. The mana fixing seems nice but I am need to be ramping turn 3 and would usually rather hold mana up for counters/draw/removal. Doesn't seem ideal in my version at least but I am open to discussion.