I will add that JaceTheMetaSculptor brings up a good point about adding red which is BR Zombies, Pillar of Flames does help there a lot especially early on, but I think we can get by on just Detention Sphere/Supreme Verdict(until we land our trump)/Terminus and we have Oblivion Ring as well. Something to think about. How has UW been doing against Zombies for you guys? I have had family in town and haven't gotten to test against them much. I would also point out that often in an early standard/meta decks like Zombies thrive but often come down to earth as there linear strategies are foiled/trumped with better decks, so going red for now might be a good meta choice if you are really worried about Zombies.
Personally I don't feel red adds enough to this deck, we should be focused on the long game and CA imo, not the early with Pillar of Flame. However I do like Izzet Charm and Counterflux but again don't think they add enough to go full WUR. Plus as usual with going 3 color you lose access o the colorless lands, Ghost Quarter especially. Jmo though.
I call it "civilized control", since it's too civilized to actually kill any creatures. The way I see it, with Zombies and Thragtusk being such big things, killing creatures just isn't what it used to be. Detention Sphere, Tamiyo, Terminus, Martial Law, and Sensory Deprivation all neutralize Messenger without him recurring.
Thoughts on specific cards:
Dissipate: Counters are not that bad. There, I said it. Most decks I see that look good will be running too many creature types for Cavern to be great. Maybe I'll run a Ghost Quarter too, but I don't like losing my own mana...
Sphinx's Revelation: excellent as a 1-of. Drawing multiples is so unacceptable that I don't think I'd run 2.
Entreat the Angels: Still a great win condition, even if I draw it early, I can get three angels late. Probably should run 2, though.
Terminus: I haven't really had trouble getting to 6 mana, but I have found myself at precariously low life totals waiting for turn six or a miracle. That makes me want to put in a couple Supreme Verdict. But Verdict is just so unhelpful against Zombies, Thragtusk, Lotleth Troll, indestructible...
Martial Law: It removes whatever threat needs to be removed at the time. This is one of two ways I know to stop Thragtusk from attacking without giving your opponent value. Also, it's slow, so that's a problem.
Sensory Deprivation: This is our premium early-game removal spell. Slap it one whatever beater they play and bid your time until a Terminus gets rid of it permanently. Sure, Restoration Angel doesn't mind this thing at all, but by the time the Angel comes down, you will have saved 6 damage or so.
Jace: I think I should go down to 3 (I've been drawing multiples a lot). He's so very, very good.
Tamiyo: This is the other way to stop a Thragtusk and prevent your opponent from getting value. Can also draw cards, but I almost never do because the ultimate is too good.
Lone Revenant: In creature-light decks, I prefer my finishers to be hexproof. My opponent will have been holding worthless removal all game. I don't want to suddenly lose that virtual card advantage as soon as I throw down Drogskol Reaver (an otherwise amazing card). The lack of evasion hasn't been an issue at all; I sweep the board, and lock down two threats with Tamiyo and Martial Law, so he can get his hits in, at which point I get whatever I need to keep on going.
Azorius Keyrune: Obviously not needed for fixing, but helpful as something that smooths mana (think of it like Borderland Ranger), and it acts as a win condition in a pinch.
Overall, I've liked the deck and have done well (on Cockatrice, but still). Early Geist of Saint Traft is really tough for me to deal with, as is Sigarda (naturally). Really, my only answers to the pair once they've resolved are Terminus and Entreat the Angels. Actually, Jace is a surprisingly good stall against Geist (it takes a Geist two swings to kill him on his own). I really think I should have 2 Geist maindeck (another win con and protection against their's), plus two Supreme Verdict, plus one Entreat, minus one Jace, minus three Azorius Keyrunes.
EDIT: I forgot to mention, Rakdos's Return scares the crap out of me. What can we possibly do against it except keep up counter mana?
Nice list, I have been thinking about Geist of Saint Traft in the main as well, could provide the finsiher we need (hexproof) for a lot cheaper. You don't like Syncopate? Agreed on most above other than the personal card choices, but I see what you are trying to do and its working so keep it up!
Won my first match against BG 2-0, first game he got screwed though but post board he got stomped with nearly a god hand. I -4 Pillar of Flame -2 Runchaneter's Pike, -1 Bonfire | +2 Detention Sphere, +2 Oblivion Ring, +1 Supreme Verdict, +2 Unsummon for the sb. I used Izzet Charm to remove a threat, then I landed Geist of Saint Traft turn 3 and then held Counterflux mana up with Snapcaster Mage backup and was able to counter everything while GoST smashed. In hindsight I should have left Pillar in, something to take away for the future, forgot about the exile which would have been nice. Only one match but we might be on to something! Gonna test more.
I would like to start or join an MTGS Cockatrice play-test clan. The goal would be to test our decks against others that are serious about the game and are competitive players, and to improve the test quality on Trice to improve our decks and game. Ideally we would have many members with every major archetype and format well represented, but would love to keep it simple at first and stick to Standard. Right now I am building UWx Control and USA Delver and would love to test against other MTGS players. I'd like to have a spreadsheet database that members of the clan has access to with members MTGS names, Trice names, Formats, Decks, times available for testing, etc. Skype and Facebook connections could also help us communicate beyond here and better the experience, but would be optional for obvious reasons. We can come up with a name and I'll design a banner if we want one later on. '
I'll start it off and get the spreadsheet going after we get a few members:
Username: jland13 Formats: Standard (mainly), Legacy, Modern (rarely) Decks: UWx Control, USA Delver Best Times: Mornings 10am-2pm, Evenings After 10pm PST (Pacific Standard Time) Frequency: Daily Skype: Yes Facebook: Yes
I’m looking for serious players who not only want to raise their game (SCG, 5ks, PTQs, etc.), but also want to consistently want to change and modify their 75 to conquer the format.
Looking to test only standard/modern right now, so post here if you want to start conquering the Portland/Vancouver magic scene!
I am interested in joining a team as well. I am on the opposite side of town though and pretty busy but maybe we can make it work. What stores you play at? I play at Guardian Games mostly which is pretty centrally located, I also test on Trice and MTGO and have Skype as well. Contact me and let's build!
I'd personally rather my opponent be the one to take pot shots at my lifetotal not my manabase. 8 life loss max from duals isn't too bad. 16 and I may as well be handing the game to my opponent. Sure there are times where i can just lay the land in tapped, but more often than not I'd rather them untapped in case i have a response, or to play the psychological game of making them think i have a counter/burn spell.
It's not as much stretching the manabase as much as changing the deck theory entirely. You're making a completely different deck variant staring delver.
I'd suggest making a primer for RWU 'Merika Delver and allowing RU Izzet Delver to evolve on its own.
Cutting pikes cuts major power to the deck. We will see how the meta changes, but I rather like them.
Not following on how it changes the deck theory, care to elaborate? It's the same deck but with some great additions imo. The only major difference is the mana base and it's actually pretty stable for me so far. If others feel that we shouldn't discuss it here, than fine we can make a separate thread, but I feel like it's the same deck (but imo better). I can't think of anything you lose by adding white myself, and I haven't asked anyone not to discuss their version. Truth is we don't even know if Delver is viable yet, so any discussion helps lead to that goal I feel.
Yeah, Griselbrand is a hard card to beat. Aside from those 3 cards that you mentioned, you can still use unsummon from the side, though I'd put a few copies in the main. What do you think of dropping the pikes completely? I know it speeds up our clock but since we lost good cantrips like ponder, do you think it is better off as creatures or additional spells to increase the chance of flipping delvers?
I'm a bit curious why some of us are worried in stretching the mana base. Splashing white is definitely worth it. Cards like Restoration Angel and Geist of Saint Traft makes the deck a lot better. I know shock lands can hurt your life total, but there will be instances where you have nothing else to play and you can just put the dual into the field tapped.
I am wondering the same, might be time to say goodbye to the Pikes. But again where does that leave Thought Scour? I don't really like Desperate Ravings, at all. Unsummon looks good as a replacement for it in my list. But I think I am going to test at least a few more matches before I write it off. I also agree on your points completely, Delver without Geist is just, well Delver without Geist, not the same. Azorius Charm and Restoration Angel just make it a no brainer imo, if Delver is going to be viable that is. Plus this deck still is centered around Red which is Delver's stregth now obviously, your not losing much if anything but gaining a lot.
I have been nothing but impressed with Drogskol Reaver. Many of the aggro decks out there don't run straight removal and have to 2:1 themselves to deal with it. (Sometimes netting us some life and cards in the process besides the fact.) I have yet to lose a game where I've connected with the big guy.
I just don't see that coming from Angel of Serenity. If she gets removed, the opponent gets all their creatures back and probably has enough mana to cast them again. The only saving grace for her is the fact that she can loop herself, but I can't see this deck running 4 of her and having a consistent way of pitching her to the graveyard. I'm not saying she is bad, but this deck is sorely in need of lifegain, and I don't think the angel is at her best in the deck.
I know, felt bad for stealing your thunder so linked your thread in the OP, glad to see you didn't mind and glad to have you here! I feel like it's developing competitive for sure!
Agreed and agreed on both points! I think both have potential in this deck though, but right now I would rather see Reaver most of the time which is why it get's the nod in my build.
seems good on cockatrice honestly, but I am not used to resolving massive threats in the fray of the game in standard. I might really move back to restoration angel and lyev skyknight, as it feels more natural to me personally. Im looking at cutting 2 righteous blow for more concrete methods of a threat though, so that might be the current edit currently impressed with haunted fengraf though
Seems good but not sure I want it over Ghost Quarter or Evolving Wilds (gag, but needed imo). Maybe a 2/2/1 split? How many colorless do you feel is viable? I feel with the double color casting cost of a lot of cards 5 would be the most for me, but traditionally 6.
I just played my first match on Trice and went 1-2 against Grixis Control thanks to Griselbrand, had him down to 5 in the last game and then he dropped it trumping my flipped Delver and Geist and I had no answer unfortunately. The deck did very well other than not being able to handle Grissy, got Delver flipped right away every game. My sb strategy was probably sub-optimal too (-4 Scour, -2 Pikes, +2 Volley, +2 Sphere, +2 Negate) but managed to win g2 aftr losing g1, and nearly had g3. What are some good cards against it? I can only think of Detention Sphere/Azorius Charm/Oblivion Ring from my deck currently.
Looks good, I was just going to bring up Righteous Blow for discussion. I feel like it's a sb card but I could be wrong. I am also thinking that we need another Sphinx's Revelation, the lifegain could be huge against Red and other aggro strategies. How is the list playing for you?
I think the charm is an excellent card in tempo builds. Basically, I feel as though control strategies need creatures to be gone, not gone temporarily. I also think the lifelink clause is wasted on decks that run so few creatures. In this context, I'll take a one damage shock with limitations.
As for the keyrune, I want to be able to hit six or seven mana before turn six or seven. It also doubles as a blocker or kill condition when necessary.
I actually agree that cheaper kill conditions may be the way to go in the end, at least to an extent. Resto angel is practically built for draw-go control, and I suspect a legitimate contender for these decks. She also plays very well with snappy.
I also kind of want to talk about planeswalkers: I don't like any of the blue ones. Convince me I'm wrong.
Most of this is your opinion which I won't attempt to dissuade you of, I made my points above. As far as Planesealkers go, there's not much to say if you don't like them. They both offer card advantage and can protect themselves/you/others to a certain extent, Tamiyo especially. I like Jace for his mini-Fact or Fiction mostly, and his casting cost. I think that is reason enough to run him in multiples. Drop one, -2 Twice and drop another and are up potentially 6 cards (in magical Christmas land of course, my favorite of Planes! :D). Jace's ultimate seems pretty good but would require a lot to play it (5 turns unmolested +1ing = unlikely). Tamiyo's ultimate on the other hand is quite possible and absolutely back breaking. They both fit into this deck because they provide card advantage, protect themselves and you, Jace has a great - ability combined with a good cmc, and Tamiyo has a great ultimate and can shut out your opponent easily.
Note - Sorry for not debating more on the the cards you mention, I have learned in my time here that everyone has their opinion and not everyone will agree with your choices, even with solid backing and debate. If you don't like it and don't find my reasons I give enough to change your mind there isn't much to debate. (I know, crazy coming from me right? -Goes and get's his third flame warning in a heated debate)
jland: do you have any problems not having a turn 1 U/R and/or a turn 3 geist:ost
The biggest issue for me has been the cip tap lands messing with Geist. I am thinking about adding a couple more basics and dropping something since we don't have Ponder/Gitaxion Probe to help find land. It's a tight list as usual though and not sure what to drop, maybe Pike but that would mean Scour is gone too and so is a major engine. Yes it can be a little screwy and this deck likes to mulligan, a lot. It's a fun deck though, I could see it doing well.
Card tags please, Thanks!
Nice list, I have been thinking about Geist of Saint Traft in the main as well, could provide the finsiher we need (hexproof) for a lot cheaper. You don't like Syncopate? Agreed on most above other than the personal card choices, but I see what you are trying to do and its working so keep it up!
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Won my first match against BG 2-0, first game he got screwed though but post board he got stomped with nearly a god hand. I -4 Pillar of Flame -2 Runchaneter's Pike, -1 Bonfire | +2 Detention Sphere, +2 Oblivion Ring, +1 Supreme Verdict, +2 Unsummon for the sb. I used Izzet Charm to remove a threat, then I landed Geist of Saint Traft turn 3 and then held Counterflux mana up with Snapcaster Mage backup and was able to counter everything while GoST smashed. In hindsight I should have left Pillar in, something to take away for the future, forgot about the exile which would have been nice. Only one match but we might be on to something! Gonna test more.
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Username: jland13
Formats: Standard (mainly), Legacy, Modern (rarely)
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I am interested in joining a team as well. I am on the opposite side of town though and pretty busy but maybe we can make it work. What stores you play at? I play at Guardian Games mostly which is pretty centrally located, I also test on Trice and MTGO and have Skype as well. Contact me and let's build!
Not following on how it changes the deck theory, care to elaborate? It's the same deck but with some great additions imo. The only major difference is the mana base and it's actually pretty stable for me so far. If others feel that we shouldn't discuss it here, than fine we can make a separate thread, but I feel like it's the same deck (but imo better). I can't think of anything you lose by adding white myself, and I haven't asked anyone not to discuss their version. Truth is we don't even know if Delver is viable yet, so any discussion helps lead to that goal I feel.
I am wondering the same, might be time to say goodbye to the Pikes. But again where does that leave Thought Scour? I don't really like Desperate Ravings, at all. Unsummon looks good as a replacement for it in my list. But I think I am going to test at least a few more matches before I write it off. I also agree on your points completely, Delver without Geist is just, well Delver without Geist, not the same. Azorius Charm and Restoration Angel just make it a no brainer imo, if Delver is going to be viable that is. Plus this deck still is centered around Red which is Delver's stregth now obviously, your not losing much if anything but gaining a lot.
I know, felt bad for stealing your thunder so linked your thread in the OP, glad to see you didn't mind and glad to have you here! I feel like it's developing competitive for sure!
Agreed and agreed on both points! I think both have potential in this deck though, but right now I would rather see Reaver most of the time which is why it get's the nod in my build.
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Seems good but not sure I want it over Ghost Quarter or Evolving Wilds (gag, but needed imo). Maybe a 2/2/1 split? How many colorless do you feel is viable? I feel with the double color casting cost of a lot of cards 5 would be the most for me, but traditionally 6.
Looks good, I was just going to bring up Righteous Blow for discussion. I feel like it's a sb card but I could be wrong. I am also thinking that we need another Sphinx's Revelation, the lifegain could be huge against Red and other aggro strategies. How is the list playing for you?
Most of this is your opinion which I won't attempt to dissuade you of, I made my points above. As far as Planesealkers go, there's not much to say if you don't like them. They both offer card advantage and can protect themselves/you/others to a certain extent, Tamiyo especially. I like Jace for his mini-Fact or Fiction mostly, and his casting cost. I think that is reason enough to run him in multiples. Drop one, -2 Twice and drop another and are up potentially 6 cards (in magical Christmas land of course, my favorite of Planes! :D). Jace's ultimate seems pretty good but would require a lot to play it (5 turns unmolested +1ing = unlikely). Tamiyo's ultimate on the other hand is quite possible and absolutely back breaking. They both fit into this deck because they provide card advantage, protect themselves and you, Jace has a great - ability combined with a good cmc, and Tamiyo has a great ultimate and can shut out your opponent easily.
Note - Sorry for not debating more on the the cards you mention, I have learned in my time here that everyone has their opinion and not everyone will agree with your choices, even with solid backing and debate. If you don't like it and don't find my reasons I give enough to change your mind there isn't much to debate. (I know, crazy coming from me right? -Goes and get's his third flame warning in a heated debate)
The biggest issue for me has been the cip tap lands messing with Geist. I am thinking about adding a couple more basics and dropping something since we don't have Ponder/Gitaxion Probe to help find land. It's a tight list as usual though and not sure what to drop, maybe Pike but that would mean Scour is gone too and so is a major engine. Yes it can be a little screwy and this deck likes to mulligan, a lot. It's a fun deck though, I could see it doing well.