Well I've been away for quite some time. Nice to see this deck type is still getting some work. Might be tooting my horn but interesting to see World Queller in some of the lists as I *think* I was the first one to throw them in to create a Stax style countdown. The latest goblin that came out seems to make this deck style quite interesting especially when added into a few of the lands.
Been away for a while and haven't been able to see the meta change. Still have the old MWC with R splash that is a somewhat stax deck. If anyone here has any suggestions for change in meta let me know.
You are very welcome it was talked about on here earlier as a lot of the decks have a good LD suite. Sowing Salt gets around Crucible (which a good amount of Tron decks run) making it ideal.
As for this Curse vs Rule Rule wins due to speed. Leyline of Sanctity is also a great card to run to utterly hose Storm and other decks. It's ability to come down turn 0.
Been away for a while but Suppression Field can work you just need to rely on little cost activations. If you really want to stop Tron Sowing Salt is probably the best card you can use, and that would need some color fixing with the RR. As people have mentioned I wouldn't run SSG unless you run either Chalice or 3Sphere...and I don't think SSG is enough to run 3Sphere. Then again my deck was also a bit different and slightly slower. Interesting to see this deck is still being talked about though.
Considering the Enchantress package Opalescence would be an interesting reprint. I can't think of many, or any, decks right now that would even use it. But it might open up some room for enchantment based decks to be played. There are replacements for Serenity in Modern (not enchantments though) so I don't think that would see a reprint. Part of me wants Humility but I know that card will never see the light of day for a reprint.
Was talking in Cockatrice and stuff like this came up with someone wanting Wasteland in Modern. After a second I thought about perhaps Port could work in modern. It isn't all that overpowering, but it isn't what a lot of Magic players like. Not every deck in modern could make use of it (due to mana bases) so it might seen some play. Still iffy based on what it does. It was someone else who suggested that maybe a port reprint would be a functional reprint with a drawback. Something along the lines of a Rishadan Port that can target only nonbasics.
Very much open for debate but it would be a functional reprint with a drawback much like Ghost Quarter being a reprint of Strip Mine but with a drawback. I could go either way on it being included. Just throwing it up here for discussion.
You explained very well process that BLP uses to determine it's prices, so I will nit go in to that. Yes, if all you look at is one site, one shop, then it may be possible to think that all prices went up the same rate. That is very small and egocentric thinking, but since SpeedGrapher has some strong opinions about online price guides, I can allow that he may have that tunnel-vision.
I think the problem in the argument is coming down to this. Single instances of a card exceeding it's average market prices does not invalidate the average. I pointed it out in the post I made, it's a fallacy of composition. Especially when you two have been conceding that it is indeed possible for outliers to be around given the sample. No one is doubting what he is saying, we are doubting that his evidence is true of the whole.
All I am going to say is I saw them at $50 at the first SCG event with a Modern side event. I am sure your sight doesnt take those sales into account. I know Misty Mountian and Pasttimes (both larger midwest stores) were selling some of the shocks for $50 and over. I saw it with my own 2 eyes. Not to mention the prices that were posted on Ebay. Whether or not those cards sold for that price, I know what they were asking.
So I cant post a graph or a link to show you that a YEAR AGO the price of a card spiked 10 fold, but they did. Not many, but some did. Doubt me all you want. I could really careless, not going to argue about the subject anymore. Get off MODO and go out to a real card shop or a big event and see the prices people are paying at those events.
By the way we are not talking about averages, we are taling about top dollar costs, so stop talking about averages.
Starting to think Torm is my old nemesis....
3 examples does not make a representative sample especially if 2 of them are regional stores. It was already established in this thread that a lot of places use online prices as guide lines for store prices.
For the Ebay part, I have seen cards selling on Ebay for twice their market value as well as some selling for 1/3 of their market value. That doesn't throw out the market value. Especially considering Magic is a speculative market and open to cards in some places being sold for above their market price.
There are such a thing as outliers in data. If the average price for a card is listed as $35 and you see a card for $50, that doesn't make the average wrong. It makes the card you saw an outlier. Throwing out a random representative sample because of 3 instances of a different card price makes no sense.
Your last sentence makes no sense. What started this whole thing was Dr.Worm talking about averages or market prices. To argue against that then say "we aren't talking about that" is baffling. You are basically asking them to stop talking about what they have been talking about since they started talking about it. Especially since the original poster of this proposition was making a fallacy of composition.
@Lectris: Thanks for the tip on Wheel and the yard hate tip. The list was off the top of my head.
@DrWorm: Renewal allows you to abuse Martyr. It also allows you to work the Yosei lock without a reanimation engine. Ideally it works better in turbo-fog.dec but it serves the same purpose here.
Have you tested it yet though? I would be interested to see if Enduring helps more then it might hurt.
He was there to be a removal dodger at first. Was already considering his removal, possibly replacing him with Elspeth, or Michiko Konda. Yosei, the Morning Star could also prove fun...I need something to help win the game while also helping halt their assault xD;
Prisons should do that. Annex defends PW's from being attacked with mana taxing. Annex and Jura can be removed together if you don't plan on running other PW's.
Strip Mine is ok for destroying special use nonbasics like tron lands and hideaway lands but tec edge isn't even good for that. By the time you can use it they have either had access to the active tron lands or had the chance to activate the hideaway. Strip Mine is playable but I really don't think tectonic edge fits a useful role in comparison. Tectonic Edge might be good in some specific matchups but it seems too limited overall.
Also none of the current land destruction is useful for punishing greedy manabases. It would be nice people had to play around nonbasic destruction.
Ghost Quarter punishes greedy mana-bases. If a deck gets to a point where it is playing a lot of non-basics GQ can make them cycle through those rather fast. It essentially becomes strip mine after some time. GQ and TE used together works well enough. GQ popping off non-basics early on and swapping them for basics. The second the 4th land comes down (if non-basic) TE is there to clear it off the board. The two of them together are pretty good stuff.
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 World Queller
Artifact:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
Enchantment:
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Suppression Field
Instant:
3 Lightning Helix
2 Ajani Vengeant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sorcery:
4 Boom//Bust
Land:
4 Arid Mesa
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Mistveil Plains
5 Plains
4 Sacred Foundaries
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Aura of Silence
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Nevermore
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Suppression Field
3 Sowing Salt
As I said been away for a while so this deck variation is like 2+ years old.
You are very welcome it was talked about on here earlier as a lot of the decks have a good LD suite. Sowing Salt gets around Crucible (which a good amount of Tron decks run) making it ideal.
As for this Curse vs Rule Rule wins due to speed. Leyline of Sanctity is also a great card to run to utterly hose Storm and other decks. It's ability to come down turn 0.
Very much open for debate but it would be a functional reprint with a drawback much like Ghost Quarter being a reprint of Strip Mine but with a drawback. I could go either way on it being included. Just throwing it up here for discussion.
I think the problem in the argument is coming down to this. Single instances of a card exceeding it's average market prices does not invalidate the average. I pointed it out in the post I made, it's a fallacy of composition. Especially when you two have been conceding that it is indeed possible for outliers to be around given the sample. No one is doubting what he is saying, we are doubting that his evidence is true of the whole.
3 examples does not make a representative sample especially if 2 of them are regional stores. It was already established in this thread that a lot of places use online prices as guide lines for store prices.
For the Ebay part, I have seen cards selling on Ebay for twice their market value as well as some selling for 1/3 of their market value. That doesn't throw out the market value. Especially considering Magic is a speculative market and open to cards in some places being sold for above their market price.
There are such a thing as outliers in data. If the average price for a card is listed as $35 and you see a card for $50, that doesn't make the average wrong. It makes the card you saw an outlier. Throwing out a random representative sample because of 3 instances of a different card price makes no sense.
Your last sentence makes no sense. What started this whole thing was Dr.Worm talking about averages or market prices. To argue against that then say "we aren't talking about that" is baffling. You are basically asking them to stop talking about what they have been talking about since they started talking about it. Especially since the original poster of this proposition was making a fallacy of composition.
2 Pride guardian
2 Elite vanguard
2 White knight
2 Accorded paladin
2 War priest of thune
2 adaptive automaton
2 Steadfast guard
4 Serra angle
1 Archon of justice
1 Vengeful archon
3 Pacifism
3 Armored ascension
4 Spirit mantle
2 Angelic destiny
Sorcery/instant
2 Guardians' pledge
2 Safe passage
24 Plains
deck tags added
Have you tested it yet though? I would be interested to see if Enduring helps more then it might hurt.
Prisons should do that. Annex defends PW's from being attacked with mana taxing. Annex and Jura can be removed together if you don't plan on running other PW's.
Ghost Quarter punishes greedy mana-bases. If a deck gets to a point where it is playing a lot of non-basics GQ can make them cycle through those rather fast. It essentially becomes strip mine after some time. GQ and TE used together works well enough. GQ popping off non-basics early on and swapping them for basics. The second the 4th land comes down (if non-basic) TE is there to clear it off the board. The two of them together are pretty good stuff.