Your rulebook seems very outdated; nowadays (since the grand M10 rules update, to be precise), the loop and shortcut rules live in rule 716; 716.2, in particular, is the one that pertains to your situation.
Yes, you are correct. You have demonstrated the loop and proposed a shortcut; if your opponent has no answers (i.e. no way to interrupt your loop) he has to accept the shortcut and die. And if he does have a way to interrupt you, he simply has to state at which point he wishes to act; he cannot, ever, force you to step through the entire loop over and over again.
No, the opponent was NOT within his rights. When one player proposes a shortcut, the other player can either accept the shortcut or explain at what point he wants to do something other than what the shortcut proposes, which shortens the shortcut to that point. He cannot simply refuse just because he feels like it.
I was looking at a dated version of the comp rules, oops
I read the section you mentioned and see it more clearly now. Does my opponent have any rights regarding that he or she may think I may somehow mess up the combo?
Also, thank you everyone for your responses, I very much appreciate it
My question is about infinite loops and regarding the eggs (second sunrise) deck.
I prove that I can go off by repeating the same 5 actions over and over, in this case.
1: Sac a lotus bloom for 3 white
2: Sac a lotus bloom for 3 red
3: Sac pyrite spellbomb for 1 red and do 2 damage
4: Sac a conjurers bauble and put a second sunrise on top of my empty library, then draw it.
5: Cast Second sunrise for 3 white.
Repeat
It was my thought that based on rule 421 on the comprehensive rules that I could theoretically say I want to do this combo say 12 times until my opponent dies.
Come FNM my opponent is sour about losing to me and will not accept this and the judge takes his side which made me burn through 30 life with the combo.
I have never played any other combo decks so I would like clarification from someone who knows more about this, it would greatly help
Does it make a difference in this case that this combo has 5 steps as opposed to say a more simple combo like kikijiki/festermite?
As long as I prove I can do say 2-3 cycles of this combo without messing it up sufficient?
I also think running a couple elite inquisitor over accorder paladin would be a decent choice too. It reduces your vulnerability to arc trail post board and helps vs all the decks that have been playing gut shot.
How has this deck done with someone playing a nihil spellbomb? It seems like that would wreck this deck badly since it blanks all your win cons and you have to start over again. I feel like that would almost be an auto lose, am I wrong?
On a side note, awesome looking deck. I love the fact that it is so budget yet it seems like a blast to play.
Lets say I have Furnace Celebration out and I attack with a Hellcarver Demon He goes unblocked and his ability triggers.
Two questions. Since I have to sacrifice all permanents simultaneously, do the furnace celebration triggers go on the stack?
Also, since furnace celebration is no longer in play, if I can pay the 2 mana for some of the triggers, would the triggers deal any damage?
Finally, assuming I can do damage, do I have the time to draw mana before my lands get sacrificed?
Grind clock is an interesting one card to run. Early game it will get you more mileage then an early tomb scour. If you add other control elements such as contagion engine or anything else that uses counters, you can proliferate the grindclock up with the engine and steady progress
I agree with from, the mana curve is too high and nantuko shades are a must have 4 of. I also dont like quest for the gravelord in this deck. It is a fine card, but I am not sure I would main board it. I would defiantly mainboard the vampire hexmages over them. Most decks will play plainswalkers and a 2/1 first strike is fine as it is. I would also think about vampire nighthawk
Hey, not sure if this is the right or wrong place to post this, but I am looking to buy Deck sleeves for my (draft) cube that I am making. I am going to need around 800 or so if I were to guess right.
I wanted to know if anyone knew a good place to get decent sleeves on the cheap. I have looked around, but have not found any really great deals and figured maybe someone may be able to help :P. Thanks.
Basic Information
Cube Size: 535
Breakdown: 60 of each color, 45 lands, 70 artifacts, 115 multicolors.
Standard or Theme: Standard
Snow Lands: No
Average Number of Players: Up to 8 drafting (with cards left over) or 4 Sealed
How Often Drafted: Have not finished cube yet
Cube Design
Standard or Multiplayer: Standard
Sideboards?: Yes
Color Balance: Yes
Gold Balance: Yes
Hybrid/Split/Kicker as Gold: Yes
Color Triggers as Gold: Yes
Perfectly Balanced CMC: No
About the Cards
I chose to make this have plenty of multicolor cards in the cube, but I still wanted there to be a lot of mono colored cards as well.
The cards I chose for this cube are mostly the cards I feel that I will have fun with in a limited environment.
I do not have all the cards from this cube yet, this is basically a rough draft of what I want it to be. I own more then half of these cards and am trying to keep the cards I need to buy on the cheap side. I plan to evolve this cube in the future as I trade for new cards, and new sets come out.
Other Information
Suggestions are welcome as to what I can replace in my cube. I am not looking to spend a lot of money on any cards unless they are incredibly fun to play with in a cube, but am very open to cheap cards that would make my cube more fun to draft. I appreciate all the feedback I can get
It really just depends what you open in your sealed pool. If you happen to get 10 creatures with infect and maybe some proliferate, then why not try and go with it? I agree that infect creatures can just be treated like defensive creatures with wither, and end up being really useful in combat. Limited is all about creature combat, so -1/-1 counters should be huge.
This card is crazy good, and has huge potential. It will defiantly see play in extended with pila pala, and I am sure there will be some great stuff to use it with in standard
I was looking at a dated version of the comp rules, oops
I read the section you mentioned and see it more clearly now. Does my opponent have any rights regarding that he or she may think I may somehow mess up the combo?
Also, thank you everyone for your responses, I very much appreciate it
I prove that I can go off by repeating the same 5 actions over and over, in this case.
1: Sac a lotus bloom for 3 white
2: Sac a lotus bloom for 3 red
3: Sac pyrite spellbomb for 1 red and do 2 damage
4: Sac a conjurers bauble and put a second sunrise on top of my empty library, then draw it.
5: Cast Second sunrise for 3 white.
Repeat
It was my thought that based on rule 421 on the comprehensive rules that I could theoretically say I want to do this combo say 12 times until my opponent dies.
Come FNM my opponent is sour about losing to me and will not accept this and the judge takes his side which made me burn through 30 life with the combo.
I have never played any other combo decks so I would like clarification from someone who knows more about this, it would greatly help
Does it make a difference in this case that this combo has 5 steps as opposed to say a more simple combo like kikijiki/festermite?
As long as I prove I can do say 2-3 cycles of this combo without messing it up sufficient?
I also think running a couple elite inquisitor over accorder paladin would be a decent choice too. It reduces your vulnerability to arc trail post board and helps vs all the decks that have been playing gut shot.
On a side note, awesome looking deck. I love the fact that it is so budget yet it seems like a blast to play.
A pack is $4, it is not ridiculous for some of the best cards that come out of it end up costing more then 1 pack.
Hellcarver demon
Lets say I have Furnace Celebration out and I attack with a Hellcarver Demon He goes unblocked and his ability triggers.
Two questions. Since I have to sacrifice all permanents simultaneously, do the furnace celebration triggers go on the stack?
Also, since furnace celebration is no longer in play, if I can pay the 2 mana for some of the triggers, would the triggers deal any damage?
Finally, assuming I can do damage, do I have the time to draw mana before my lands get sacrificed?
Thank you for your help
everflowing chalice and Voltaic key would be good additions with that.
I would rather run Ichor rats to garuntee a poison counter to proliferate.
I cannot tell what the heck is even going on in this picture, it needs more of a sense of action like other bounce spells.
I wanted to know if anyone knew a good place to get decent sleeves on the cheap. I have looked around, but have not found any really great deals and figured maybe someone may be able to help :P. Thanks.
I will look into swapping some stuff out tomorrow when I get some time to try and pound out a list with a smaller curve.
That was defiantly something I noticed when looking at other peoples cubes, I guess I just went a little crazy with some higher costed cards.
Cube Information
Basic Information
Cube Size: 535
Breakdown: 60 of each color, 45 lands, 70 artifacts, 115 multicolors.
Standard or Theme: Standard
Snow Lands: No
Average Number of Players: Up to 8 drafting (with cards left over) or 4 Sealed
How Often Drafted: Have not finished cube yet
Card Selection
Proxies: None
Powered: no.
Portal: no.
"Un" Cards: no.
Cube Design
Standard or Multiplayer: Standard
Sideboards?: Yes
Color Balance: Yes
Gold Balance: Yes
Hybrid/Split/Kicker as Gold: Yes
Color Triggers as Gold: Yes
Perfectly Balanced CMC: No
About the Cards
I chose to make this have plenty of multicolor cards in the cube, but I still wanted there to be a lot of mono colored cards as well.
The cards I chose for this cube are mostly the cards I feel that I will have fun with in a limited environment.
I do not have all the cards from this cube yet, this is basically a rough draft of what I want it to be. I own more then half of these cards and am trying to keep the cards I need to buy on the cheap side. I plan to evolve this cube in the future as I trade for new cards, and new sets come out.
Other Information
The Cards
Creatures
1 Elite Vanguard
1 Nova Cleric
1 Order of the Stars
1 Devoted Caretaker
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
CMC 2 (8):
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Leonin Shikari
1 Ronom Unicorn
1 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
1 Silver Knight
1 Soltari Trooper
1 knight of medowgrain
1 Soltari Monk
CMC 3 (7):
1 Mystic Crusader
1 Skyhunter Cub
1 Knight Of Dawn
1 Kor Sanctifiers
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Pianna, Nomad Captain
1 Skyhunter Skirmisher
1 Loxodon Gatekeeper
1 Magus of the Disk
1 Seht's Tiger
1 Serra Angel
1 Calciderm
1 Celestial Crusader
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
CMC 5 (5):
1 Gerrard Capashen
1 Mageta the Lion
1 Cloudgoat Ranger
1 Reveillark
1 Voidstone Gargoyle
CMC 6 (3):
1 Darien, King of Kjeldor
1 Hand of Justice
CMC 1 (2):
1 Sunlance
1 Harm's Way
CMC 2 (8)
1 Disenchant
1 Judge Unworthy
1 Wipe Clean
1 Journey to Nowhere
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Serenity
1 Hoofprints of the Stag
1 Spirit Loop
1 Repentance
1 Retribution of the Meek
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Unquestioned Authority
1 Griffin Guide
1 Prison Term
1 Scepter of Dominance
CMC 4 (5):
1 Day of Judgment
1 Wrath of God
1 Sigil of the New Dawn
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Honden of Cleansing Fire
CMC 6 (3):
1 Akroma's Vengeance
1 Solar Tide
1 true conviction
Blue
1 Enclave Cryptologist
CMC 2 (3):
1 Riptide Mangler
1 Surveilling Sprite
1 Looter il-Kor
CMC 3 (5):
1 Ambassador Laquatus
1 Callous Oppressor
1 Ovinomancer
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
1 Man-o'-War
CMC 4 (4):
1 Chronozoa
1 Clone
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Thieving Magpie
CMC 5 (4):
1 Body Double
1 Djinn of Wishes
1 Vesuvan Doppelganger
1 Mulldrifter
CMC 6 (4):
1 Draining Whelk
1 Quicksilver Dragon
1 Uyo, Silent Prophet
1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
1 Mystic Speculation
1 Opt
1 Sleight of Hand
1 Serum Visions
1 Whispers of the Muse
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
CMC 2 (7):
1 Counterspell
1 Mage's Guile
1 Mana Leak
1 Trickbind
1 Impulse
1 Into the Roil
1 Miscalculation
CMC 3 (10):
1 Repulse
1 Rethink
1 Trade Secrets
1 Compulsion
1 Eyes of the Watcher
1 Think Tank
1 Traveler's Cloak
1 Jace Beleren
1 Capsize
1 Crystal Shard
1 Concentrate
1 Deep Analysis
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Foresee
1 Dismiss
CMC 5 (7):
1 Bribery
1 Covenant of Minds
1 Fathom Trawl
1 Dream Leash
1 Honden of Seeing Winds
1 parallel thoughts
1 tezzeret the seeker
CMC 6 (3):
1 Reality Strobe
1 Control Magic
1 Spelljack
Red
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Kird Ape
1 Magus of the Scroll
1 Goblin Patrol
CMC 2 (4):
1 Hammer Mage
1 Keldon Marauders
1 Hearth Kami
1 Blood Knight
CMC 3 (4):
1 Ghitu Slinger
1 Tuktuk the Explorer
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Manic Vandal
CMC 4 (7):
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Lavaborn Muse
1 Lord of Shatterskull Pass
1 Obsidian Fireheart
1 Rakdos Pit Dragon
1 Rakka Mar
1 Keldon Champion
CMC 5 (6):
1 Arc-Slogger
1 Latulla, Keldon Overseer
1 Magmaw
1 Tephraderm
1 Shard Phoenix
1 Inferno Titan
1 Shivan Dragon
1 Two-Headed Dragon
1 Hellkite Charger
CMC 1 (2):
1 Dead (Dead/Gone)
1 Lightning Bolt
CMC 2 (6):
1 Magma Jet
1 Pyromatics
1 Reverberate
1 Shatter
1 Incinerate
1 Rift Bolt
CMC 3 (8):
1 Barbed Lightning
1 Carbonize
1 Char
1 Fatal Frenzy
1 Hammer of Bogardan
1 Planeswalker's Fury
1 War Cadence
1 Honden of Infinite Rage
1 Flameshot
1 Rekindled Flame
1 Sulfurous Blast
1 Wild Ricochet
1 Pandemonium
1 Aftershock
CMC 5 (3):
1 Savage Beating
1 Word of Seizing
1 Incendiary Command
CMC 6 (2):
1 Wildfire
1 Chandra Ablaze
CMC 7+ (2):
1 Inferno
1 Insurrection
CMC X in cost (4):
1 Comet Storm
1 Demonfire
1 Molten Disaster
Green
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Thornscape Apprentice
1 Pouncing Jaguar
1 Wild Nacatl
CMC 2 (7):
1 Mire Boa
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Thornweald Archer
1 Wall of Roots
1 Werebear
1 Albino Troll
1 River Boa
CMC 3 (5):
1 Nullmage Advocate
1 Phantom Nantuko
1 Quirion Druid
1 Uktabi Orangutan
1 Yavimaya Elder
CMC 4 (6):
1 Erhnam Djinn
1 Glissa Sunseeker
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Iwamori of the Open Fist
1 Masked Admirers
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Acidic Slime
1 Ant Queen
1 Garruk's Packleader
1 Genesis
1 Mitotic Slime
1 Arashi, the Sky Asunder
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Spectral Force
CMC 6 (1):
1 Terra Stomper
CMC 7+ (3):
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Krosan Tusker
1 engulfing slagwurm
CMC 1 (3):
1 Elvish Fury
1 Enshrined Memories
1 Hurricane
CMC 2 (6):
1 Mulch
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Regrowth
1 Tangle
1 Cream of the Crop
1 Khalni Heart Expedition
1 Cultivate
1 Gift of the Gargantuan
1 Harrow
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Holistic Wisdom
1 Call of the Herd
CMC4 (3):
1 Creeping Mold
1 Stonewood Invocation
1 Harmonize
CMC 5 (4):
1 Overwhelming Stampede
1 asceticism
1 All Suns' Dawn
1 Honden of Life's Web
CMC 6 (1):
1 Desert Twister
Black
1 Vampire Lacerator
1 Carnophage
CMC 2 (7):
1 Kiku, Night's Flower
1 Nether Traitor
1 Oona's Prowler
1 Black knight
1 Dauthi horror
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 vampire hexmage
CMC 3 (6):
1 Chittering Rats
1 Liliana's Specter
1 Phyrexian Rager
1 Bone Shredder
1 Dauthi Marauder
1 Hypnotic Specter
CMC 4 (4):
1 Ashling, the Extinguisher
1 Nekrataal
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Plague Sliver
CMC 5 (5):
1 Chainer, Dementia Master
1 Fallen Angel
1 Revenant
1 Sengir Nosferatu
1 Shriekmaw
1 Skeletal Vampire
CMC 7+ (2):
1 Minion of Tevesh Szat
1 Sutured Ghoul
CMC 1 (4):
1 Lose Hope
1 Lurking Jackals
1 Quest for the Gravelord
1 Duress
CMC 2 (7):
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Doom Blade
1 Night's Whisper
1 Sign in Blood
1 Macabre Waltz
1 Sickening Shoal
1 Mind Shatter
CMC 3 (8):
1 Ashes to Ashes
1 Dark Banishing
1 Forced March
1 Infest
1 Sudden Spoiling
1 Death Wish
1 Stupor
1 Sudden Death
1 Consuming Vapors
1 Grave Pact
1 Persecute
1 Makeshift Mannequin
1 Tendrils of Corruption
1 Honden of Night's Reach
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Barter in Blood
1 Snuff Out
CMC 5 (1):
1 Consume the Meek
CMC 6 (4):
1 Mindstab
1 Null Profusion
1 geth, lord of the vault
1 Sorin Markov
CMC 7+ (1):
1 Plague Wind
Multi
1 Cloud Cover
1 Vanish into Memory
1 Mirrorweave
1 Iridescent Angel
1 Minister of Impediments
1 Aven Mimeomancer
1 Hanna, Ship's Navigator
1 Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer
1 Mirror-Sigil Sergeant
U/B
1 Soulquake
1 Recoil
1 Mindleech Mass
1 Wrexial, the Risen Deep
1 Wydwen, the Biting Gale
1 Lich Lord of Unx
1 Sygg, River Cutthroat
1 Dimir Guildmage
B/R
1 Din of the Fireherd
1 Void
1 Wrecking Ball
1 Terminate
1 Bituminous Blast
1 Lightning Reaver
1 Ashenmoor Liege
1 Lyzolda, the Blood Witch
1 Pestilent Kathari
1 Vein Drinker
R/G
1 Stormbind
1 Manamorphose
1 Hull Breach
1 Shivan Wurm
1 Rumbling Slum
1 Ulasht, the Hate Seed
1 Burning-Tree Shaman
1 Apocalypse Hydra
G/W
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Privileged Position
1 Armadillo Cloak
1 Chorus of the Conclave
1 Tolsimir Wolfblood
1 Phytohydra
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Necromancer's Covenant
1 Pillory of the Sleepless
1 Unmake
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Angel of Despair
1 Voracious Hatchling
1 Blind Hunter
1 Shrieking Grotesque
R/U
1 Call the Skybreaker
1 Stitch in Time
1 Invoke the Firemind
1 Spellbound Dragon
1 Skyclaw Thrash
1 Tibor and Lumia
1 Crackleburr
G/B
1 Doomgape
1 Gleancrawler
1 Vulturous Zombie
1 Lord of Extinction
1 Spiritmonger
1 Nath of the Gilt-Leaf
1 Putrid Leech
1 Vigor Mortis
W/R
1 Master Warcraft
1 Brightflame
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Rise of the Hobgoblins
1 Razia, Boros Archangel
1 Bull Cerodon
1 Stun Sniper
G/U
1 Biomantic Mastery
1 Spitting Image
1 Voidslime
1 Simic Sky Swallower
1 Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
1 Omnibian
1 Lorescale Coatl
1 Plaxmanta
1 Degavolver
1 Sunscape Battlemage
1 Cetavolver
1 Stormscape Battlemage
1 Stormscape Master
1 Ethersworn Adjudicator
1 Necravolver
1 Thunderscape Battlemage
1 Rakavolver
1 Thunderscape Master
1 Wild Research
1 Thornscape Battlemage
1 Ana Battlemage
1 Thornscape Master
1 Anavolver
1 Enigma Sphinx
1 Merieke Ri Berit
1 Slave of Bolas
1 Unscythe, Killer of Kings
1 Garza Zol, Plague Queen
1 Lavalanche
1 Charnelhoard Wurm
1 Teneb, the Harvester
1 Giant Ambush Beetle
1 Fervent Charge
1 Trace of Abundance
1 Realm Razer
1 Numot, the Devastator
1 Retaliator Griffin
1 Fungal Shambler
1 Intet, the Dreamer
1 Treva, the Renewer
1 Messenger Falcons
1 Giltspire Avenger
Artifacts
1 Mobile Fort
1 Summoner's Egg
1 Etched Oracle
CMC 5 (1):
1 Razormane Masticore
CMC 6 (3):
1 Triskelion
1 steel hellkite
1 wurmcoil engine
CMC 7+ (2):
1 Clockwork Dragon
1 Platinum Angel
CMC 1 (10):
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Black Vise
2 Chromatic Sphere
1 Leonin Scimitar
1 Sigil of Distinction
1 The Rack
2 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 bonesplitter
CMC 2 (24):
1 Howling Mine
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Sun Droplet
2 Azorius Signet
2 Boros Signet
2 Dimir Signet
2 Golgari Signet
2 Gruul Signet
2 Izzet Signet
2 Orzhov Signet
2 Rakdos Signet
2 Selesnya Signet
2 Simic Signet
1 Angel's Trumpet
1 Crystal Ball
1 Mindstorm Crown
1 Plague Boiler
1 Serum Powder
1 Sunforger
1 Sword of Vengeance
1 Vulshok Battlegear
1 Whispersilk Cloak
1 sword of body and mind
1 Chimeric Idol
1 Obelisk of Bant
1 Obelisk of Esper
1 Obelisk of Grixis
1 Obelisk of Jund
1 Obelisk of Naya
1 mind stone
CMC4 (6):
1 Paradise Plume
1 Seer's Sundial
1 Serrated Arrows
1 Sword of the Paruns
1 Icy Manipulator
1 Power Matrix
1 Minion Reflector
1 Mirari
1 Predator, Flagship
CMC 6 (1):
1 Obelisk of Alara
Lands
2 Azorius Chancery
2 Boros Garrison
2 Dimir Aqueduct
2 Golgari Rot Farm
2 Gruul Turf
2 Izzet Boilerworks
2 Mirrodin's Core
2 Orzhov Basilica
2 Rakdos Carnarium
2 Selesnya Sanctuary
2 Shimmering Grotto
2 Simic Growth Chamber
9 Terramorphic Expanse
2 Vivid Crag
2 Vivid Creek
2 Vivid Grove
2 Vivid Marsh
2 Vivid Meadow