Haha this is true but it's happened and there's always the chance it goes to the 3rd. Plus boogieman cards like blood moon exist. But to elaborate it's non creature permanents I'm averse to.. ashiok, monastery siege, shackles etc. Too much blow out potential against decays. Creatures otoh saturate their removal so it's not as risky. Idk maybe it's a mistake, I just don't see much at <4 that's worth turning decay on for.
One more tidbit worth noting is that some of the more popular modern combo is largely creature based so naturally these 'packages' are easy to insert into another deck. Twin is like the old natural order package for example. I too was playing ANT in legacy among other things including NO RUG and while I like linear combo I also really like these hybrid strategies at least from a pilot perspective.
I would avoid grind cards in the 3 slot. I've tried a few mentioned above but I hate turning decays back on and it feels horrible having the only targets in the deck being your silver bullets. Tried jace too and now I'm testing chandra instead. She's better outside of souls tokens which she still does decent at controlling with her +1 and you don't need to drop into burn range for her card advantage. Double red is the biggest issue so far.
I'm one of those that does leave in some number of bolts for the mirror btw. I also run keranos though who turns bolt into hard removal in a pinch. I'm kinda emulating jund only with better versions of everything they do IMO.. scm vs bob, better kommands, better goyfs, counters + min discard vs only discards etc.
Fair enough, I might just try 3 Tasigurs to see how I like it
I went up to 3/3 on tas and angler almost immediately after picking the deck up and I haven't had any problem. 5 beaters is terribly threat light and I always want to see a tas. I found some games I was left searching for a threat when I should of closed the game out a long time ago only a thoughtseize or something else happened and I couldn't find another. The extra copy also makes scouring a little bit better with kommands and allows you to play slightly looser. That is to say delving a copy if necessary or baiting removal when you don't have a counter handy or even swinging in for 4 then dropping another tas untapped (rare but I won a game off this).
Bingo! I was initially rather surprised when I found modern decks to support [some of] the greediest manabases in the game. Even legacy with it's true dual access won't usually be quite that greedy across the format. In modern however there really is no land hate worth worrying about. You won't ever see KotR tutor up multiple wastes, thalia-> waste or stifles lock you off the 3rd/4th color etc. Its a free-for-all round here outside of corner case matches like DNT (although moons exist and burn does punish greed I'll admit).. but for the most part its like why not.
Bingo! I was initially rather surprised when I found modern decks to support [some of] the greediest manabases in the game. Even legacy with it's true dual access won't usually be quite that greedy across the format. In modern however there really is no land hate worth worry about. You won't ever see KotR tutor up multiple wastes, thalia-> waste or stifles lock you off the 3rd/4th color etc. Its a free-for-all round here outside of corner case matches like DNT.. so why not.
I just used this to go 4-1 and qualify for Modern Festival finals. I faced URg Twin, Merfolk, Amulet, Grixis Delver, and lost in the final round to Elf Company.
Enjoy!
I really like your take on this deck. Essentially 2 aggressive lines of play out the gate that combined should happen more often than not. Dig it. It does feel like its missing some instant speed spells though.
Few other thoughts:
Profane command looks like a poormans scale-able kolaghan's command, has it been pulling any weight?
I'm missing a few of the signature green creatures here, primarily a couple scooze but also possibly a couple smiters to combat discard. Any reason you favored finks over these?
It's an interesting idea although I don't really see maverick happening in modern as it stands. Green sun's zenith is the engine that spawned that archetype and without it maverick doesn't really exist. Not to mention some other very key components like moms/sfm/wastes/utility lands etc.
I have seen a vial maverick that was pretty sick although it never really took off. It basically lowered the GSZ count to almost nil iirc and added vials but in return it had to increase the silver bullet count and focused more on the stage/depths combo by adding wayfarer's to supplement KotR tutoring. You might be able to do a 'passable' version of this, kinda like a green DNT but without the combo element.
As mentioned RUG delver is the only real deck its currently viable in that I know of. Its restricted more by necessary blue count and cmc density rather than overall value and these things so far limit it to a RUG shell (or possibly RUx). In addition the card is pure tempo so it needs to be played in a deck with reach. Shoal and FoW are for different purposes though, at least to me. FoW is to stop unfair things from happening mostly. Shoal is to protect your threat so it gets there in time and to prevent opposing early threats from landing and lastly to win counter wars. There really is no 'late game' in mind here so shoal being worse there is kinda irrelevant. That said it can be hard cast in a pinch.
I'm not sure that I liked Stubborn Denial. I know Spooly was a big proponent of it when he was running a Grixis Delve(r) build, but I think that it's much better in a build with all 8 Delve creatures than the 4-5 that we play.
I do kind of like Dreadbore though. Sorcery speed sucks but having a reliable answer to Liliana is nice (since we often can't do it the creature way with only 1-2 creatures on the field).
I've been running 6 delve 3/3 split and denial+dispel+scm is a death knell with a creature on board. Dreadbore I'm liking more and more. I luck sacked into it just last night facing down domri at 7 with 3 creatures vs my zombie fish. Actually came back to win after that due to kommand/scm but dreadbore made it possible.
On sulfur elemental I mentioned above is there some obscure reason I'm missing that no one is running this guy?
Greetings! I've recently transitioned over from BUG control since it just doesn't have the tools I prefer available in this format. Anyway I'd like to open discussion on a couple cards I've been using in my Grixis aggro-control.
The first is dreadbore in place of the 4th terminate. Even with our burn and counter density I've had issues with resolved planeswalkers at times so I just recently changed up my removal and so far I like it. MIght should be the 5th hard removal, not sure yet.
The other I'm excited about is a pair of sulfur elementals from the board. This guy is house against so many creatures. He's a permanent wrath vs souls tokens or random stuff like elspeth tokens etc, burrenton forge-tender, destroys most of DNT including thalia, mindcensor, dryad militant, flickerwisp, blade splicer and so on (2 literally kills the entire deck), brings smiters and liege and such into bolt range or simply trades with them and even gets around anafenza + finks combo. Oh and hes uncounterable and a flash in clock/ambush viper to boot. I used this guy when I played legacy RUG delver, not sure why I haven't seen him around here yet but anyway ya hes been stellar. Basically a more narrow night of souls betrayal on a stick.
Oh and lastly a shout out to stubborn denial. I hated on it at first I admit but it does so much work alongside dispel.
I've always defined control as "reactive, plays not to lose and is at its best the longer a game goes on."
That's not a particularly problematic description, at least I would hope not. I think a deck that wants to win the game in an aggressive manner doesn't really fit this bill, but that's okay. Its honestly okay if a deck is midrange even if it plays some blue cards.
"But that kind of deck doesn't exist in modern."
That's true, and that's fine. I'd like a more traditional version to exist, but if it doesn't, I'll just go back to playing Amulet (If I can't win the long game, I'm sure as hell not going to play a midrangey game, I'm going to kill asap) instead and that's fine.
Just because something exists doesn't mean though, we don't need to start moving the goalposts on what something is and isn't. Prison is an archetype that doesn't exist in standard, but that doesn't mean we change what Prison is so we can claim that a slightly controlling deck is "Prison". That kind of revisionism bothers me on a personal level.
This is a great post and pretty much mirrors my feelings on the subject. Similar to how hymn to tourach doesn't count as targeted discard just because your opponent only has 1 card left to take.
Its the inevitability that's lacking and it's also the less tangible difference between what people sometimes miscall (or the deck evolved) midrange vs control. One starts faster and peaks lower and usually has less 'engines' built in. The other is sometimes slower to develop but nothing outside combo has more inevitability although usually at polar opposites of the game state, and combo while more explosive is also far more susceptible to disruption and a clock.
Grixis control gets my vote, although as mentioned above its actually more aggro-control like say team america. i.e. it still plays a tempo game although not to the level of the delver of secrets builds but in exchange it has the added ability to grind better.
The delver variant is powerful but from my perspective they are really just playing a worse version of RUG delver which is the true tempo deck of this format. In RUG, delver of secrets shines due to the sheer density of disruption + the ability to go underneath with a very well protected fast clock. Black just can't pull this off as well as green does so its inferior.
Grixis twin seems like its trading consistency for unnecessary toys but I am not as familiar with this version tbh.
Either way you spin it the power blend of thought scours and visions + SCM/delve creatures/burns/kommands is just a ridiculous engine that is guaranteed to perform in nearly any shell its inserted into. The question is what is optimal..
Perhaps this better explains what I'm talking about. The labels of "midrange" and "control" loosely apply to a wide range of decks with different strategies. The article's Circle of Predation is perhaps a better model to explain deck roles.
My point is that "the counterspell" as an archetype is underpowered in Modern, probably because the power level of answers printed in newer sets relative to the level of threats. This is probably because Standard and Limited players used to complain about answers being too strong and ruining their Timmy day, so threats got better and answers got worse. Anyway, that seems to be where cards are at now.
Players wanting to implement controlling elements tend to choose to play "incremental card advantage" (which "midrange" decks are doing better) or "the big spell" (Tron, Twin, Scapeshift) or even "the one drop" (tempo).
To play true "control", as long as answers don't get stronger, "incremental card advantage" or "the big spell" look more profitable than "the counterspell". Could Esper be redesigned to be a more proactive deck?
That was an excellent article/series and does a better job at expressing what myself and maybe a few others here were trying to say. Control in modern while hybridized like every archtype nowdays is not quite the typical so called 'counterspell' strategy expressed in the circle. This is due, in part, to lack of the necessary components such as counterspell and better card filtering (not for lack of finishers like those that are being suggested here) but also in part due to the creature centric nature of the format which generally promotes the 'two for one/incremental' strategy as the next best thing in the absence of those components.
So instead many control players gravitate towards this next closest viable thing to true control being 'aggro control' i.e. tempo which to me is still missing the virtual card advantage element I'm used to due to no wasteland equivalent to police modern manabases. In return this does allow for bigger spell inclusions that would otherwise not be viable in a tempo shell were wasteland/daze etc to be present. Otoh this is also less incentive to run the solid manabase that control usually enjoys since outside of blood moon there isn't much to punish greedy manabases. End result its a whole different world.
Well if your like me porting over from legacy then your feeling the same frustration. There is no true control in this format. That said after some re calibration for card power level and such I love this format. As stated above this is a creature centric format and some of the closest builds your probably gonna get are esper and grixis, the latter leaning more towards aggro control. I've piloted both and they are fine decks, the former probably not good enough to keep pace with the tier 1 broken starts but not far behind either. Don't hang it up yet man. Unless of course you really don't like turning dudes side ways to win.. in which case Ya wrong format.
I'm one of those that does leave in some number of bolts for the mirror btw. I also run keranos though who turns bolt into hard removal in a pinch. I'm kinda emulating jund only with better versions of everything they do IMO.. scm vs bob, better kommands, better goyfs, counters + min discard vs only discards etc.
I went up to 3/3 on tas and angler almost immediately after picking the deck up and I haven't had any problem. 5 beaters is terribly threat light and I always want to see a tas. I found some games I was left searching for a threat when I should of closed the game out a long time ago only a thoughtseize or something else happened and I couldn't find another. The extra copy also makes scouring a little bit better with kommands and allows you to play slightly looser. That is to say delving a copy if necessary or baiting removal when you don't have a counter handy or even swinging in for 4 then dropping another tas untapped (rare but I won a game off this).
Bingo! I was initially rather surprised when I found modern decks to support [some of] the greediest manabases in the game. Even legacy with it's true dual access won't usually be quite that greedy across the format. In modern however there really is no land hate worth worrying about. You won't ever see KotR tutor up multiple wastes, thalia-> waste or stifles lock you off the 3rd/4th color etc. Its a free-for-all round here outside of corner case matches like DNT (although moons exist and burn does punish greed I'll admit).. but for the most part its like why not.
Bingo! I was initially rather surprised when I found modern decks to support [some of] the greediest manabases in the game. Even legacy with it's true dual access won't usually be quite that greedy across the format. In modern however there really is no land hate worth worry about. You won't ever see KotR tutor up multiple wastes, thalia-> waste or stifles lock you off the 3rd/4th color etc. Its a free-for-all round here outside of corner case matches like DNT.. so why not.
I really like your take on this deck. Essentially 2 aggressive lines of play out the gate that combined should happen more often than not. Dig it. It does feel like its missing some instant speed spells though.
Few other thoughts:
Profane command looks like a poormans scale-able kolaghan's command, has it been pulling any weight?
I'm missing a few of the signature green creatures here, primarily a couple scooze but also possibly a couple smiters to combat discard. Any reason you favored finks over these?
I have seen a vial maverick that was pretty sick although it never really took off. It basically lowered the GSZ count to almost nil iirc and added vials but in return it had to increase the silver bullet count and focused more on the stage/depths combo by adding wayfarer's to supplement KotR tutoring. You might be able to do a 'passable' version of this, kinda like a green DNT but without the combo element.
I've been running 6 delve 3/3 split and denial+dispel+scm is a death knell with a creature on board. Dreadbore I'm liking more and more. I luck sacked into it just last night facing down domri at 7 with 3 creatures vs my zombie fish. Actually came back to win after that due to kommand/scm but dreadbore made it possible.
On sulfur elemental I mentioned above is there some obscure reason I'm missing that no one is running this guy?
The first is dreadbore in place of the 4th terminate. Even with our burn and counter density I've had issues with resolved planeswalkers at times so I just recently changed up my removal and so far I like it. MIght should be the 5th hard removal, not sure yet.
The other I'm excited about is a pair of sulfur elementals from the board. This guy is house against so many creatures. He's a permanent wrath vs souls tokens or random stuff like elspeth tokens etc, burrenton forge-tender, destroys most of DNT including thalia, mindcensor, dryad militant, flickerwisp, blade splicer and so on (2 literally kills the entire deck), brings smiters and liege and such into bolt range or simply trades with them and even gets around anafenza + finks combo. Oh and hes uncounterable and a flash in clock/ambush viper to boot. I used this guy when I played legacy RUG delver, not sure why I haven't seen him around here yet but anyway ya hes been stellar. Basically a more narrow night of souls betrayal on a stick.
Oh and lastly a shout out to stubborn denial. I hated on it at first I admit but it does so much work alongside dispel.
This is a great post and pretty much mirrors my feelings on the subject. Similar to how hymn to tourach doesn't count as targeted discard just because your opponent only has 1 card left to take.
Its the inevitability that's lacking and it's also the less tangible difference between what people sometimes miscall (or the deck evolved) midrange vs control. One starts faster and peaks lower and usually has less 'engines' built in. The other is sometimes slower to develop but nothing outside combo has more inevitability although usually at polar opposites of the game state, and combo while more explosive is also far more susceptible to disruption and a clock.
The delver variant is powerful but from my perspective they are really just playing a worse version of RUG delver which is the true tempo deck of this format. In RUG, delver of secrets shines due to the sheer density of disruption + the ability to go underneath with a very well protected fast clock. Black just can't pull this off as well as green does so its inferior.
Grixis twin seems like its trading consistency for unnecessary toys but I am not as familiar with this version tbh.
Either way you spin it the power blend of thought scours and visions + SCM/delve creatures/burns/kommands is just a ridiculous engine that is guaranteed to perform in nearly any shell its inserted into. The question is what is optimal..
That was an excellent article/series and does a better job at expressing what myself and maybe a few others here were trying to say. Control in modern while hybridized like every archtype nowdays is not quite the typical so called 'counterspell' strategy expressed in the circle. This is due, in part, to lack of the necessary components such as counterspell and better card filtering (not for lack of finishers like those that are being suggested here) but also in part due to the creature centric nature of the format which generally promotes the 'two for one/incremental' strategy as the next best thing in the absence of those components.
So instead many control players gravitate towards this next closest viable thing to true control being 'aggro control' i.e. tempo which to me is still missing the virtual card advantage element I'm used to due to no wasteland equivalent to police modern manabases. In return this does allow for bigger spell inclusions that would otherwise not be viable in a tempo shell were wasteland/daze etc to be present. Otoh this is also less incentive to run the solid manabase that control usually enjoys since outside of blood moon there isn't much to punish greedy manabases. End result its a whole different world.