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  • posted a message on Animar, Soul of Elements +1/+1 Counters Matter decklist
    Some creatures you might consider that work well with your +1/+1 counters theme:

    Novijen Sages, Sage of Fables and Zameck Guildmage for card draw.

    Apocalypse Hydra for some removal.

    I think at the moment you're running too few creatures, and you'll probably appreciate removing some of your non-creature cards to fit more in.

    You might also want to edit your deck list to arrange things in alphabetical order. If people can see clearly what is already in the deck, they are more likely to comment with suggestions Smile
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Animar, Soul of Elements (combo)
    It has support 2 so it can put a counter on animar and something else. That would draw you a card and put get two counters on animar. You can also take the option of drawing 2 supposing there are other creatures out.
    Bit risky to rely on this as card draw, as it requires an opponent to have a creature or two out to support. I think the problem here is that it is quite situational, sometimes it will be great, other times it won't really do anything. I'd prefer reliable card draw.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Animar, Soul of Elements (combo)
    Quote from Themikeyt »
    How about Kederekt Leviathan? It's a creature, and a board wipe that bounces creatures ..

    And Sakashima??

    Also, I know the deck protects Animar, but, what Cloudstone Curio. Seems kinda essential that the artifact stays protected.
    Kederekt Leviathan also bounces Animar, which sets back your virtual mana considerably, but I do play it in other decks. It has the advantage of being usable from the graveyard as well in a pinch, so well worth considering if highly situational. Usually targeted bounce ends up repeatable enough that the mass bounce offered by Leviathan is only worthwhile if you're trying to disable hexproof or shroud locks.

    Sakashima the Impostor is pretty much a fancy clone, and while clones aren't bad, they are only ever as good as what is already on the board. I tend to avoid clones for this reason. That said, Sakashima at least can bounce itself, which can be handy.

    There are a variety of catch all protections that you can run from cheap counters like Swan Song, creature based stuff like willbender, glen elendra archmage and draining whelk. You can also run more recursion if you find you need it, Eternal witness, den protector, reclaim, noxious revival are all options.
    This is good advice for protecting and recurring Cloudstone Curio.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Animar, Soul of Elements (combo)
    Quote from Daedronus »
    Do like that Hadana's Climb, when flipped, gives Animar evasion and a buff. Could be good commander death. I just really struggle to include non creatures in Animar.

    I agree, it's a non-creature and it's a slow way of getting +1/+1 counters. It's easy to flip, but then you're paying 3 mana for a land and potentially ramp. Once Animar gets going having enough power to kill with Commander damage is easy, so the buff is going to be win-more quite often. Kessig Wolf Run is probably comparable, and probably better.

    Quote from Daedronus »
    Wanted to make a case for the inclusion of Etali, Primal Storm. So it triggers on attack, not on connecting any damage which I think is important (and one of the reasons I don't include in my Animar build cards like Trygon Predator).

    In a multiplayer commander game it can potentially net you several free cards from your opponent's decks. This can disrupt top deck manipulation (you get your opponent's Sensei's Divining Top!) in addition to some free creatures and non creatures. But notice that Etali says "cast," so if you cast your opponent's creatures for free, Animar is still getting counters.

    Etali also casts from YOUR top deck. So the chance of casting a big fat fatty of your own is high. And, of course, it's a "may" trigger. Thoughts?

    I personally avoid combat triggers, since usually you don't get many combat steps before you win. Etali offers card advantage, but it's random based on what your opponents have, and remember you will a lot of the time you will simply hit lands. I imagine it will be quite fun, but less effective than a card which lets you do exactly what you need it to do.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Animar, Soul of Elements (combo)
    If you can reliably shuffle, Riverwise Augur will provide excellent card selection and advantage. Without the shuffle, it's more akin to drawing a single card, as it doesn't dig deeper into the deck, unlike Sea Gate Oracle and Raven Familiar.

    I wouldn't be inclined to replace either the Oracle or Familiar with this, since it has a higher CMC so is more reliant on Animar to be efficient, but if you can fit it in addition to those, then it's worth testing.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Animar, Soul of Elements (combo)
    Quote from Serberus_08 »
    Quote from akroma44 »
    I say it seems bad because it is taking up a 3cmc non-creatures slot for a conditional mana source that can't even be used until the next turn at the earliest. Wood Elves is probably a much better card in this deck, because it contributes to the main game plan, gives mana immediately (sometimes free with 2 Animar counters), and can do all the things a normal creature can do. If you want an additional Cradle, you are better off playing Sylvan Scrying, Expedition Map, or Crop Rotation, as they cost less mana and use less conditions. Xenegos the Reveler gives a pseudo cradle that makes red mana immediately, and can even produce chump blockers. Even Ulvenwald Hydra gets a tapped cradle and is a creature, so it advances our own plan.

    Also, in my experience with combo Animar, you don't really need loads of green mana. Most of the combo cards are red or blue mana.
    I agree about the noncreature cards in an animar build. I've found for fixing, Vizier of the Menagerie gets a lot of mileage.

    I also agree with the above.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Animar, Soul of Elements (combo)
    I'm quite surprised and had to verify!

    I haven't tended to include many sacrifice effects in the deck, which Protean Hulk requires to be a win condition. I think it's a fine good stuff inclusion and some sort of protection against wrath effects, but I don't think it's worth shaping the deck in the direction of using it as a win condition on it's own.

    That said, feel free to brainstorm Temur win conditions using Hulk. :p

    Also, yes Vizier of the Menagerie is amazing for Animar. The colour fixing is almost the more valuable part of its effect.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Animar, Soul of Elements (combo)
    If room can be found, I'd add all three, but cuts are really difficult.

    Rishkar, Peema Renegade might replace Beastcaller Savant. You give up being able to turn green into another colour mana, but probably net more green mana and because you can add counters to creatures without summoning sickness, it has similar utility. It's nice that it can throw +1/+1 counters onto Animar for a bit of a boost too.

    Trophy Mage could take the place of Sage of Fables. I'm not completely happy with this choice, since +1/+1 utility is reduced and we lose the Glen Elendra Archmage synergy too, but at one level you're replacing a random draw engine with Cloudstone Curio, so it might be good enough. Could also consider cutting Woodland Bellower instead of Sage of Fables?

    Walking Ballista is a win condition, so I'd look at removing Craterhoof Behemoth or Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker for it. Otherwise maybe Evolutionary Leap if you didn't want to remove a win condition?

    When replacing cards, I try to maintain existing function and utility as much as possible, but it is difficult because Animar offers so many powerful choices.

    Hope this helps. Remember I'm not playing the deck at the moment, so these suggestions are made without the benefit of practical experience, only thought experiment.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Animar, Soul of Elements (combo)
    Hi Frank, what's your current list? The only other card I'd add (if you're not already running it) is Sylvok Replica to add to Trophy Mage tool box utility.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Animar, Soul of Elements (combo)
    Do you need to run all three of these: Pestermite, Deceiver Exarch and Zealous Conscripts?

    How often does Trygon Predator make a difference with it's ability?

    How often do you get to activate Jace, the Mind Sculptor more than once?

    Those would be among the first cards I'd consider cutting if you want to make room for Walking Ballista and other card draw effects.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Animar, Soul of Elements (combo)
    It depends entirely on your metagame and what you expect to be countering. They both deal with sorcery and instant removal spells, but then they depart in their utility.

    Heroic Intervention deals with Supreme Verdict, Obliterate, Desolation Angel, Crater Hellion, Planar Collapse, Scourglass, Oblivion Stone.

    Negate deals with Time Stop, Time Warp, Cyclonic Rift, Descend upon the Sinful, Terminus, Warp World, Primal Surge, The Great Aurora, Black Sun's Zenith.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Animar, Soul of Elements (combo)
    Thoughts on Aether Revolt


    Revolt - Conditional ETB effects. Having a permanent leave the battlefield is fairly simple with Animar, given the main combo win-cons involve a lot of bouncing. There may be times where a Revolt card can't be activated, but I think if the effect is good enough it's worth including.

    Energy - It's back! This is a build around mechanic and I don't think there is enough synergy with Animar, nor the requisite volume of good cards to build around it in this deck. It could be an interesting deck building challenge, but it's not a particularly 'splashable' resource.

    Improvise - Convoke (lite) for artifact matters! If you're playing with a high number of artifacts (likely creatures), adding a few improvise cards might be worthwhile. Not being able to reduce coloured costs is a very real downside compared to convoke, but at the same time being able to reduce the cost of some instant and sorcery spells could be well worthwhile, but only if you've already built around artifacts (the creatures of which do have great synergy with Animar, but anti-synergy with Cloudstone Curio).

    Vehicles - Also returning. A creature-like permanent sadly gets no cost reduction benefit from Animar, nor does it put a counter on Animar. Unlikely to ever make the cut, barring an extraordinary effect.

    The Expertise Cycle - Baral's Expertise, Kari Zev's Expertise, Rishkar's Expertise: Animar is not fond of expensive non-creature spells because they are usually far more inefficient per mana compared to creatures which are cost-reduced. These cards somewhat get around this mana inefficiency by allowing another spell to be cast for free, which makes them far more interesting despite being types I wouldn't usually review. I discuss the individual cards below.


    Baral's Expertise - Sorcery speed hurts the utility of this card, but it is still good at removing blockers or reusing our own ETB effects, also being able to hit artifacts is a bonus. Bouncing our own creature and replaying it for free is a valid use. I don't know if it's possible to find room for this card, but if you do I think it could do some good work.

    Illusionist's Stratagem - 4 mana is probably slightly too much for a trick, but this does draw a card, let us reuse ETB effects at instant speed and can protect against removal. Interesting enough for a mention anyway.

    Quicksmith Spy - If you have enough artifact targets, this is pretty similar to "ETB, draw a card" on a creature. It gets better if you have untap effects or expect the game to go longer allowing you to draw more cards, and gets worse if you're relying on artifact creatures as your targets since they may have summoning sickness. In the right build I think this card might be a hidden gem, but I think that build is quite different from mine.

    Trophy Mage - CMC 3 artifact tutor lets you find Cloudstone Curio. I think this card is worth a slot for that reason alone, but it also gives you an opportunity to build a CMC 3 artifact (and artifact creature) toolbox. Consider as well, if Animar is at 2 counters, you can cast Trophy Mage for U (Animar goes to 3 counters) and immediately find an artifact creature to cast for free (Animar goes to 4 counters).

    Whir of Invention - The premier improvise spell, UUU is a hefty cost even if you're using improvise to reduce the cost further, and that requires a certain amount of build around to be likely. The bonus if you're playing an artifact heavy build is that this spell puts the artifact straight onto the battlefield, which is a powerful effect and well worth considering. Again, Cloudstone Curio would likely be the main target.


    Kari Zev's Expertise - The effect is quite powerful for the cost especially if you can use the free cast, but unlike the other two expertise cards in Temur colours, the likelyhood of getting the free cast is quite low, since it covers a much smaller number of cards in the deck and doesn't give you an opportunity to draw into a spell or return one from the battlefield for reuse.

    Sadly nothing else really worth mentioning in Red this set, in my opinion.


    Heroic Intervention - Animar is weak to sweeper effects and this protects against many of them while also acting as protection from spot removal. Definitely a meta call, but I can see this being a useful addition.

    Hidden Herbalists - If you get an infinite loop going, this can create infinite green mana without much difficulty. Certainly worth considering for that reason, and when it is just a bear at least it puts a counter on Animar for a low cost.

    Monstrous Onslaught - It is not that difficult to have an enormous Animar, so this could act as a one sided board sweep, but probably only when you're already ahead. In that regard it's possibly a trap rather than a good addition to the deck.

    Rishkar, Peema Renegade - Rishkar potentially generates more mana than he costs, which is a very powerful ability. Assuming you have Animar and two other creatures without summoning sickness, Rishkar will allow each of them to tap for G. If you have more creatures out with +1/+1 counters on them, that's even more mana. Furthermore, having the option to give Animar an additional +1/+1 counter never hurts.

    Rishkar's Expertise - A 6 mana sorcery is a big investment, but this will probably draw a lot of cards, and give you a free spell cast on top of that. It relies heavily on board state, so there is a risk that it will always simply be win more, but I think it's worth testing.

    Silkweaver Elite - She cantrips for the right cost (at least not too high), and once you've got a loop going, she will keep drawing, but if you can't activate her Revolt on the first cast, she's going to be a big disapointment. Possibly include if your whole build is around cantrip creatures, but she would be towards the bottom of the list of options due to the conditional draw.


    Rogue Refiner - Another cantrip creature that also gives you energy. Like Silkweaver Elite, unless you have a use for the energy, this would be down the list of cantrip options because it can't have its cost reduced below GU.

    Artifacts and Lands

    Cogwork Assembler - This has an expensive ability, 7 mana is a lot to pay, but with infinite mana this essentially replicates the Kiki-Jiki combo by itself. It also can create interesting utility options, depending on the artifacts in your build and the mana you have to spare and with CMC 3 it can be searched up with our newest tutor, Trophy Mage. I don't know if it's worth including, but it's worth noting as a pretty powerful effect and may surprise people.

    Hope of Ghirapur - Cute little legend! Might be useful to combat a heavy control deck before combo-ing off? Most certainly a meta call and I don't think it will be the best way to deal with problem control decks, but it is a cute card and offers interesting and political choices for a low mana cost (or free).

    Inspiring Statuary - I mention this, because it seems like it might work well in an artifact heavy build, but essentially it is a mana rock that taps for 1 to cast non-artifact spells. This is an awkward card as it wants you to play a lot of artifacts but only rewards you by letting you cast non-artifacts more easily. In my opinion, this is not the right card for Animar even if you're playing an artifact heavy build. I think it would fit well in a deck that uses non-artifact spells to generate a lot of artifact tokens (Clues, Thopters, Servos, and so on). Could be intesting in a build that also includes Chief Engineer and Paradox Engine, but I'm getting off topic.

    Lifecrafter's Bestiary - Turns every creature into a cantrip for a small additional cost. Combos well with Tangleroot. The additional G cost is actually harder to keep up than it looks. Animar is a very coloured mana hungry deck, but it still might be good inclusion. CMC 3 means tutorable by Trophy Mage. It's hard to evaluate, so probably deserves testing.

    Paradox Engine - Combos well with a mana dorks, Earthcraft, convoke and improvise. We already run a storm like deck and with the right board state this goes infinite quickly, but it is build around, and if things aren't going well it may as well say "creatures you control have vigilance".

    Planar Bridge - (not to be mistaken for Planar Gate) A very powerful effect for a very high price. I don't expect Animar will be the deck for this effect, but I expect to play against it. Also somewhat ridiculous with Paradox Engine.

    Walking Ballista - You can play this for free and get as many +1/+1 counters equal to half the number of counters on Animar. It also acts as a mana sink if you have infinite mana and either way it can ping your opponents to death. This is a great card, as a victory condition, creature removal or simply a body (cast of 0 to put the first counter on Animar), it is useful at any point during the game and easily tutorable.

    Spire of Industry - The only land in Aether Revolt, a Mana Confluence when you have an artifact, or a Wastes if you don't. I don't really like Mana Confluence in Animar, since a lot of the mana combos involve the tapping and untapping of lands, and that life cost adds up quickly. Colourless mana often becomes useless once Animar gets rolling, so it's not selling that aspect either. Finally the coloured mana production is too situational unless you're very artifact heavy (even then, it's unlikely to happen on an early turn when you need the flexibility the most).

    As always, looking forward to hearing other people's thoughts and whether I missed anything.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Animar's Bounce House
    Hey WWWolfe,

    As far as I can tell you run Training Grounds to benefit a single creature, which seems to me like it would be a dead card more often than not.

    I personally would recommend including more card draw (or other card advantage engines like Etherium-Horn Sorcerer) in the deck. Mulldrifter is an all-star in a bounce heavy deck.

    You might also consider adding another combo win to your Primal Surge package: Laboratory Maniac. This way you can win even if you don't get a combat step for any reason.

    It looks like a fair deck (as far as Animar goes) with a few different combo options, but no way to aggressively tutor for them. Only a little fast mana, so you're not seeking to combo off before turn 5 unless you get really lucky with a Birds of Paradise and the right combo pieces. More often than not you'll be attacking with a large Animar or a horde of utility creatures for victory.

    Scuttlemutt is a nice little bit of tech that I haven't played with myself. How does it perform for you?

    Let me know if I missed anything obvious.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Animar, Soul of Elements (combo)
    My concern with Crucible of Worlds is that it benefits from a longer game with many turns, rather than a game with lots of activity during only a few turns.

    Same reason I don't like planeswalkers and upkeep triggers in the deck. More often than not, you'll be done between turn 5 and 7. I favour effects that can be reused multiple times during a single turn.

    The more controlling you build the deck, the better these sort of turn based effects become.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Willbreaker combo
    Cauldron of Souls is a good way to gain control of many creatures at once.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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