Hey there, I'm jumping back into standard and wanted to start fiddling around with Mono Black. Is there a good stock list for the pure black version? I'm also interested in the red splash but I wanna start with the pure black version first.
pithing needle effectively takes care of connections, whip, erebos's card draw,
Spheres take care of almost everything that deck throws. That said, you only have 4, use them wisely. I basically target connections over everything else.
Last breath takes out specter and mutavault (super important) as well as hitting grey merchant. Can hit pack rat if needed.
If you have a pithing needle, it *might* be ok to call swamp ahead of time depending on if they play temples or not. Else call what is problematic that you don't have (pack rat if you don't have the verdict for it, Erebos if you don't have dsphere, whip if the game has gone on and there's stuff in their yard, etc.)
Verdict is necessary for the pack rat and desecration demon.
If you keep them off connections and erebos, they can't draw a lot (read the bones at best). That's when your jace/revelations kick in.
I pretty much stick with 1 in the side for the reasons you stated. It is a very strong trump in the mirror alongside aetherling. Unlike aetherling, it effectively costs 2 less mana (No one in their right mind would tap out for aetherling outside of a desperation play in the control mirror).
If MA had better applications against midrange/ramp decks I'd play 2 but everytime I feel let down because of stuff like haste (i.e. RG dragons and Xenagos).
Part of my strategy against the mirror is to just add in more win conditions alongside counters to more quickly force the "do you have the answer or not" plan. Jace MA is one extra win con in that plan. Seems to work, I win the majority of control MUs outside of mana issues.
That said, I can see forgoing MA altogether if you're confident enough in the control MU (i.e. you're running ashioks main already)
I don't like it in the mono black matchup because i'd rather dsphere their connections rather than play our own to match theirs.
If after siding in any available thoughtseizes, aetherlings, Jace MA, and Ashioks you find you still need a leg up in the mirror, then sure connections is the next best thing. Imo that's overkill, but if you're in a control-heavy meta, then yes consider a 2-of UC in the side. Connections, like Jace, is repeatable CA and that alone demands a sphere/counter from the other side.
Silence doesn't impact the board. As in, their t1 stromkirk noble is going to continue to just get bigger while you stymie their BTE t2? While you have card disadvantage (you lose one card and don't gain any in the process)? Seems way too suspect for me. How is it against the aggro decks? I suspect it's good in a few situations, but poor in many others.
Cipher's advice on augurs and blind obedience *definitely* help and i've tested those myself. Augurs block 1/1 or 2/2s, preventing a lot of damage or demanding a spear/pillar from their hand. Blind obedience helps against:
Boar, Ash Zealot, Chandra's Phoenix, Hellrider, Thundermaw, Lightning Mauler+Anything
Plus the random little lifegain from extort once you can stabilize off a sweep.
I played it in my Grixis list, and it felt like a 4 mana blowout for Sphinx's Revelation, exactly. I know it also get's Think Twice, but given the removal spells present, even after sideboarding, I just felt that another Memory Adept was better.
Maybe it would be great if you see a lot of Revelation decks? I mostly just play against these midrange and aggro decks. It's also passable against GB Rock, I suppose. In Grixis, they leave in removal for Olivia, but in Esper, I doubt they have anything after board, and it would be good against the early Liliana and Underworld Connections, the 2 cards that matter the most. It also could blow out Garruk's ultimate (his -3 ability). My guess is that it would just work poorly with Supreme Verdict, though.
I was thinking about how most midrange and control rely on/incorporate card draw, so there isn't a lack of targets in those decks (specifically thinking of G/B, Jund, every control deck ever).
I've been finding that essence scatter is crucial for not lagging behind against voice/thragtusk/etc. I've been playing more scatters than doom blade, although the versatility of doom blade isn't anything to scoff at either.
@Cipher: I can totally see cutting the ratchet bomb for more spheres. It hasn't performed for me yet.
What are people's opinions on notion thief? Too cute?
Cipher i've been practicing with your build (except modified ever so slightly). I really like the theory/your explanation of how to play it. In short, I wanted to confirm that it's a solid foundation for draw-go esper.
I'm personally not a fan of 4 Revs (I know, heresy), so I only play 3. But augurs have been finding them just fine.
I did want to ask about the singleton ratchet in the side. For tokens? It just doesn't seem reliable as only a one of.
In my (minimal) experience playing Jund versus esper in the past couple of weeks, slaughter games is the real deal. Unlike RWU, which has the capability of just burning you out/keeping pws off the table, esper doesn't have as many player-based interactions. Ripping out esper sphinx's is crucial. They also play more counterspells in my experience, effectively locking the game out before winning with aetherling/finisher of choice. Ripping out sphinx denies them that "lockout" gameplan. If they play more than one revelation for more than say x=2 that's pretty much game.
tl;dr if you're having trouble with control, specifically of the esper kind, slaughter games goes a long way. I play 4 (which is excessive, but it also neuters junk) but you'll also probably have success at 2 or 3.
Thanks all.
I was posting it for the purpose of deck discussion moving forward. I do not think the tournament report thread is meant for deck revisions/deckbuilding, and more to look at and evaluate gameplay and real tournament scenarios.
As for landcount, I think i'll keep it at 26 for now.
Things to note:
-No pillar. I happily ran into 0 voices, but that's just luck.
-R1 was a jank B/W tokens deck (running murder, pacifism...unconventional MB card choices, to say the least). R2 was against UWR midrange/control. R3 was against Bant Hexproof. R4 split.
-Also didn't really seem to need nighthawks.
-And no ruric thar! What am I doing? lol
My biggest thing of concern is the removal discussion currently going on. I really think a mix of tragic/pillar is best, but I haven't tested shock yet (I will when it becomes legal online).
I'm also running 26 lands, is that more than usual? I was running 25 but then upped it to 26 due to a LOT of mana screws.
My votes are for the ooze, lifebane zombie and doom blade to be serious contenders for inclusions in the traditional Jund (midrange/Reid Duke) decks. Witchstalker also gets a mention because it's a decent hexproof body on top of its hosing ability. The rest I don't like in traditional jund builds.
A Jund aggro deck might be able to use the rest of the cards mentioned by kwis more effectively.
I don't like Garruk 4.0 in any Jund build unless it's creature-ramp dedicated (mana dorks+craterhoof/fatties). But R/G or W/G seems better suited for that.
First Ability: It allows you to get a creature on the field even if it gets countered, especially in a topdecking scenario. "Damn, you had the dissipate"...but I still get something on the board. Same with spot removal. In effect, it makes point answers (counters/spot removal) much worse. Honestly this is the best ability imo.
Second Ability: I feel like this ability is winmore, but this isn't the reason why we play this enchantment I feel anyway so why not? Not bad by any means, it rewards our removal, and makes our critters bigger than theirs (if my 2/2 hunt turning into a 5/5 isn't as big as their stuff, then jeez what are they playing, desecration demon?). It also makes farseek into a slightly less worse topdeck.
Third Ability: Landfall was a great mechanic in Zendikar, and getting a healing salve as a landfall ability is good. Again, farseek deserves special mention as triggering the second and third ability at once. Another subtle point is that you can play shocks untapped and you STILL gained life. Not too shabby.
I see this card as not a CA engine, but as an incremental advantage engine. Now, personally, I've always been a fan of drawing extra cards (a la deadbridge or underworld connections) as a form of getting ahead, but the incremental advantage this provides isn't ignorable. Literally each of our plays, topdecks, etc get better.
I honestly wrote this card off when I first saw it, but I'm going to test it and see if it handles better or worse than deadbridge chant (of which I honestly wasn't a fan of in the first place, I prefer underworld connections). It's just really hard for me to justify this over underworld connections which has been working incredibly well for me as my non-garruk card draw.
In my experiences, I've had a lot of difficulty getting to 4 and 5 mana on time (both with and without farseek), and I feel like 6 5-drops is already a lot. Unless you are replacing thrags and/or Garruks with Hellkite, in which I would have to disagree.
My friend tells me that 2/4/2 of Garruk/Thragtusk/thundermaw works, but I feel like a lot more hands will be mulligans due to five drop-cluttering.
As for the cavern of souls question, I've found that 1 of is pretty good. Rarely screws up mana, and occasionally is relevant against countermagic alongside your choice of sire/ruric thar, but frankly is more often a mana fixer for my t3 vampire nighthawk.
But you can definitely live without it. I'm running pretty much Reid Duke's manabase, but with a basic forest over I believe a dragonskull summit (although I might change that back).
Spheres take care of almost everything that deck throws. That said, you only have 4, use them wisely. I basically target connections over everything else.
Last breath takes out specter and mutavault (super important) as well as hitting grey merchant. Can hit pack rat if needed.
If you have a pithing needle, it *might* be ok to call swamp ahead of time depending on if they play temples or not. Else call what is problematic that you don't have (pack rat if you don't have the verdict for it, Erebos if you don't have dsphere, whip if the game has gone on and there's stuff in their yard, etc.)
Verdict is necessary for the pack rat and desecration demon.
If you keep them off connections and erebos, they can't draw a lot (read the bones at best). That's when your jace/revelations kick in.
If MA had better applications against midrange/ramp decks I'd play 2 but everytime I feel let down because of stuff like haste (i.e. RG dragons and Xenagos).
Part of my strategy against the mirror is to just add in more win conditions alongside counters to more quickly force the "do you have the answer or not" plan. Jace MA is one extra win con in that plan. Seems to work, I win the majority of control MUs outside of mana issues.
That said, I can see forgoing MA altogether if you're confident enough in the control MU (i.e. you're running ashioks main already)
If after siding in any available thoughtseizes, aetherlings, Jace MA, and Ashioks you find you still need a leg up in the mirror, then sure connections is the next best thing. Imo that's overkill, but if you're in a control-heavy meta, then yes consider a 2-of UC in the side. Connections, like Jace, is repeatable CA and that alone demands a sphere/counter from the other side.
Cipher's advice on augurs and blind obedience *definitely* help and i've tested those myself. Augurs block 1/1 or 2/2s, preventing a lot of damage or demanding a spear/pillar from their hand. Blind obedience helps against:
Boar, Ash Zealot, Chandra's Phoenix, Hellrider, Thundermaw, Lightning Mauler+Anything
Plus the random little lifegain from extort once you can stabilize off a sweep.
I was thinking about how most midrange and control rely on/incorporate card draw, so there isn't a lack of targets in those decks (specifically thinking of G/B, Jund, every control deck ever).
@Cipher: I can totally see cutting the ratchet bomb for more spheres. It hasn't performed for me yet.
What are people's opinions on notion thief? Too cute?
Cipher i've been practicing with your build (except modified ever so slightly). I really like the theory/your explanation of how to play it. In short, I wanted to confirm that it's a solid foundation for draw-go esper.
I'm personally not a fan of 4 Revs (I know, heresy), so I only play 3. But augurs have been finding them just fine.
I did want to ask about the singleton ratchet in the side. For tokens? It just doesn't seem reliable as only a one of.
Lifebane should probably go in the side.
tl;dr if you're having trouble with control, specifically of the esper kind, slaughter games goes a long way. I play 4 (which is excessive, but it also neuters junk) but you'll also probably have success at 2 or 3.
I was posting it for the purpose of deck discussion moving forward. I do not think the tournament report thread is meant for deck revisions/deckbuilding, and more to look at and evaluate gameplay and real tournament scenarios.
As for landcount, I think i'll keep it at 26 for now.
1 Cavern of Souls
12 Shox
3 Dragonskull Summit
3 Rootbound Crag
4 Woodland Cemetery
1 Forest
2 Kessigs
Creatures
4 huntmasters
3 Olivia
4 Thragtusks
3 Tragic Slip
1 Dreadbore
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Farseek
2 Putrefy
3 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Rakdos' Return
Artifact
1 Rakdos Keyrune
PW
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Appetite for Brains
3 Duress
1 Underworld Connections
2 Barter in Blood
3 Slaughter Games
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Vraska, the Unseen
1 Rakdos's Return
Things to note:
-No pillar. I happily ran into 0 voices, but that's just luck.
-R1 was a jank B/W tokens deck (running murder, pacifism...unconventional MB card choices, to say the least). R2 was against UWR midrange/control. R3 was against Bant Hexproof. R4 split.
-Also didn't really seem to need nighthawks.
-And no ruric thar! What am I doing? lol
My biggest thing of concern is the removal discussion currently going on. I really think a mix of tragic/pillar is best, but I haven't tested shock yet (I will when it becomes legal online).
I'm also running 26 lands, is that more than usual? I was running 25 but then upped it to 26 due to a LOT of mana screws.
A Jund aggro deck might be able to use the rest of the cards mentioned by kwis more effectively.
I don't like Garruk 4.0 in any Jund build unless it's creature-ramp dedicated (mana dorks+craterhoof/fatties). But R/G or W/G seems better suited for that.
First Ability: It allows you to get a creature on the field even if it gets countered, especially in a topdecking scenario. "Damn, you had the dissipate"...but I still get something on the board. Same with spot removal. In effect, it makes point answers (counters/spot removal) much worse. Honestly this is the best ability imo.
Second Ability: I feel like this ability is winmore, but this isn't the reason why we play this enchantment I feel anyway so why not? Not bad by any means, it rewards our removal, and makes our critters bigger than theirs (if my 2/2 hunt turning into a 5/5 isn't as big as their stuff, then jeez what are they playing, desecration demon?). It also makes farseek into a slightly less worse topdeck.
Third Ability: Landfall was a great mechanic in Zendikar, and getting a healing salve as a landfall ability is good. Again, farseek deserves special mention as triggering the second and third ability at once. Another subtle point is that you can play shocks untapped and you STILL gained life. Not too shabby.
I see this card as not a CA engine, but as an incremental advantage engine. Now, personally, I've always been a fan of drawing extra cards (a la deadbridge or underworld connections) as a form of getting ahead, but the incremental advantage this provides isn't ignorable. Literally each of our plays, topdecks, etc get better.
I honestly wrote this card off when I first saw it, but I'm going to test it and see if it handles better or worse than deadbridge chant (of which I honestly wasn't a fan of in the first place, I prefer underworld connections). It's just really hard for me to justify this over underworld connections which has been working incredibly well for me as my non-garruk card draw.
My friend tells me that 2/4/2 of Garruk/Thragtusk/thundermaw works, but I feel like a lot more hands will be mulligans due to five drop-cluttering.
As for the cavern of souls question, I've found that 1 of is pretty good. Rarely screws up mana, and occasionally is relevant against countermagic alongside your choice of sire/ruric thar, but frankly is more often a mana fixer for my t3 vampire nighthawk.
But you can definitely live without it. I'm running pretty much Reid Duke's manabase, but with a basic forest over I believe a dragonskull summit (although I might change that back).