Did you seriously compare these two card comboes that attempt to emulate the power level that Force of Will, the greatest counterspell printed, is part of?
I like it, this deck intends to cast multiples of heartless summons to get out some very large creatures. Also running 4 Unburial Rites means that all the discard effects to get to heartless summons might get you those large creatures into play even if you dont find it
Lol for playing a Forest in the sideboard tough (Even tough i get it)
I've ordered the Elesh Norn i'm missing myself, i've been testing this deck today and it seems to actually fare a lot better once I started to realize just how much card advantage the engine cards provide, sideboard hate still makes it rough..
I would love to somehow fit Gitaxian Probe in the sideboard as it makes it so much easier to determine the right course of action against UW Delver.
I really like this deck, cheating into play fatties has been one of my favorite archtypes ever since I first played Oath of Druids, my second favorite archtype is control, and my all time favorites has always been UG cheat into play fatties...
That in mind, I have concerns about how this deck can beat two of the currently best decks in standard, wolfrun and UW delver
Wolfrun is similiarly fast, can burn our mana dorks to bypass us, and our finisher Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is not as threatening to them as they still have their titans. Galvanic Blast is also capable of taking her down in a tradeoff block.
The big question is how to rebuild the deck to work around this, something I find hard to do in this deck since the machinery of it consists of far too many cards to allow changes;
The purpose, or core, of the deck is to cast Unburial Rites on Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (or some other fatty) from the graveyard. Failing that, due to ramp it is possible to hard cast her. These cards you need 4 of each for a total of 8
In order to achieve this it has a card draw / discard engine consisting of Mulch + Faithless Looting + Tracker's Instincts in order to consistently throw the core cards into the graveyard. You really need a full playset of each and thus 12 cards for engine, or 20 total
Add another 23 lands for 52 cards and it becomes obvious that there isnt much to work with here
Which brings us to the 'free' cards, those who don't directly interact with the concept or core of the deck:
Inferno Titan + Wurmcoil Engine are alternative win conditions, the deck is too vulnerable relying on Elesh alone so an alternative win condition is mandatory, which puts further pressure on the last remaing card:
Lingering Souls is an amazing card, it can provide you with 4 chump blockers, and it interacts well with Elesh on board, but it doesn't solve the issues mentioned above
I honestly don't see where you start shaving off cards in order to improve it's odds against either wolf run or UW delver
I think the deck can atleast stand up to wolfrun after siding out Elesh and bringing in more Wurmcoil Engine and Ancient Grudge but given it's low threat count I don't see how it could ever beat a well played UW delver deck
Isn't Ponders strength the fact that it manipulates your library in addition to recycle itself? There is a reason why this card, as well as its cousin Preordain are banned in extended and modern, they greatly increases the reliability of any deck using them.
I wouldn't throw away the library manipulation this card allows over a rather insignificant recycling cantrip, Ponder digs down 3 cards and allows you the choice to shuffle before drawing a card, Thought Scour only hands you the top card.
Even if you are into a mill or self mill deck, the utility provided by Ponder far exeeds Thought Scour, due to the fact that Ponder can, and will (most of the time), save you from bad draws, while Thought Scour provides an effect that is unlikely to change the game on its own
I did see Brood Birthing and Spawning Breath in a UR Polymorph variant utilizing control and burn, but they used them primeraly for the token effect rather than the mana acceleration. Speaking off, those two cards are the only ones that I would consider, one you hit 6 mana for Rapacious One you really should start dropping bombs rather than more situational mana acceleration
With mana acceleration provided by Lotus Cobra and Oracle of Mul Daya in combination with lands you sacced to search for new lands
In extended 3 of 4 cards I used to manipulate my hand are banned, Jace was not an integral part of the deck, he just was so overpowered that any deck featuring him became better, so I could live without that. The problem is the loss of Ponder and Preordain, the deck is heavily dependant on library manipulation in order to get things going smoothly.
Mono G works sometimes, thanks to Summoning Trap, but without any library manipulation and card drawing ability, it often stalls and dies
GU version managed at absolute best (moons and planets aligning, highly unlikely) a turn 2 Primeval Titan, but regulary could produce him at turn 3 or 4. Any slower than this and the deck dies
Anyway, I'm in dire need of alternatives to fixing the consistency issues the deck is facing. Any alternatives to Ponder / Preordain or mana ramp is higly appreciated
My immediate concern about your deck is the lack of turn two acceleration, hitting a turn two acceleration is key to staying ahead. Lotus Cobra is not enough on his own, you really should pack a set of Explore / Rampant Growth as well.
Regarding the titans / jaces, I know that's budget issues that keeps you from running a full playset, but you really should
discard cards shouldn't even be in control decks in this meta
I agree that cards like Mind Rot shouldn't be played in control decks, but Duress and Inquisition of Kozilek are powerful enough to be played. As a T1 play it can really mess up their opening hand, they also make it possible to cast your game enders a few turns earlier since you can take out their removal, and more importantly, see their hand
It's too easy to hate out, with the recent success it has had, people will pack that hate in the sideboard. Additionally the deck dies when m10 rotates out becouse it is really dependant on Time Warp, and having both Ponder & Preordain
Did you seriously compare these two card comboes that attempt to emulate the power level that Force of Will, the greatest counterspell printed, is part of?
I like it, this deck intends to cast multiples of heartless summons to get out some very large creatures. Also running 4 Unburial Rites means that all the discard effects to get to heartless summons might get you those large creatures into play even if you dont find it
Lol for playing a Forest in the sideboard tough (Even tough i get it)
Wouldn't activating Karns ultimate cause you to loose control of him and all cards he had exiled? Not that you would actually do that
I would love to somehow fit Gitaxian Probe in the sideboard as it makes it so much easier to determine the right course of action against UW Delver.
That in mind, I have concerns about how this deck can beat two of the currently best decks in standard, wolfrun and UW delver
Wolfrun is similiarly fast, can burn our mana dorks to bypass us, and our finisher Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is not as threatening to them as they still have their titans. Galvanic Blast is also capable of taking her down in a tradeoff block.
UW delver is quite more vulnerable to Elesh, but they have a lot of controll that could instantly negate any advantage this deck has. Oblivion Ring, Dungeon Geists, Vapor Snag, Mana Leak or even Phantasmal Image are killers here
And that's not touching sideboard hate like Surgical Extraction
The big question is how to rebuild the deck to work around this, something I find hard to do in this deck since the machinery of it consists of far too many cards to allow changes;
The purpose, or core, of the deck is to cast Unburial Rites on Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (or some other fatty) from the graveyard. Failing that, due to ramp it is possible to hard cast her. These cards you need 4 of each for a total of 8
In order to achieve this it has a card draw / discard engine consisting of Mulch + Faithless Looting + Tracker's Instincts in order to consistently throw the core cards into the graveyard. You really need a full playset of each and thus 12 cards for engine, or 20 total
Mana ramp consists of Birds of Paradise + Avacyn's Pilgrim + Llanowar Elves, Levy's list had 9 total cards here, lets go with that for simplicity lets say for a total of 29 cards
Add another 23 lands for 52 cards and it becomes obvious that there isnt much to work with here
Which brings us to the 'free' cards, those who don't directly interact with the concept or core of the deck:
Inferno Titan + Wurmcoil Engine are alternative win conditions, the deck is too vulnerable relying on Elesh alone so an alternative win condition is mandatory, which puts further pressure on the last remaing card:
Lingering Souls is an amazing card, it can provide you with 4 chump blockers, and it interacts well with Elesh on board, but it doesn't solve the issues mentioned above
I honestly don't see where you start shaving off cards in order to improve it's odds against either wolf run or UW delver
I think the deck can atleast stand up to wolfrun after siding out Elesh and bringing in more Wurmcoil Engine and Ancient Grudge but given it's low threat count I don't see how it could ever beat a well played UW delver deck
I wouldn't throw away the library manipulation this card allows over a rather insignificant recycling cantrip, Ponder digs down 3 cards and allows you the choice to shuffle before drawing a card, Thought Scour only hands you the top card.
Even if you are into a mill or self mill deck, the utility provided by Ponder far exeeds Thought Scour, due to the fact that Ponder can, and will (most of the time), save you from bad draws, while Thought Scour provides an effect that is unlikely to change the game on its own
I did see Brood Birthing and Spawning Breath in a UR Polymorph variant utilizing control and burn, but they used them primeraly for the token effect rather than the mana acceleration. Speaking off, those two cards are the only ones that I would consider, one you hit 6 mana for Rapacious One you really should start dropping bombs rather than more situational mana acceleration
So far I'm considering Augury Owl or Sea Gate Oracle, and I completely forgot that my old deck used Halimar Depths, basicaly any cheap scry effect would be nice. Forbidden Alchemy also looks nice
Also testing Ancient Stirrings, usually i would discard it as trash.... but it does seem interesting for a mono G variant
The deck focused on playing Primeval Titan in order to fetch Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple in order to cast either; Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth or All Is Dust
GU version (which I played) contained cards like Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Ponder, Preordain (See the issue here?).
With mana acceleration provided by Lotus Cobra and Oracle of Mul Daya in combination with lands you sacced to search for new lands
In extended 3 of 4 cards I used to manipulate my hand are banned, Jace was not an integral part of the deck, he just was so overpowered that any deck featuring him became better, so I could live without that. The problem is the loss of Ponder and Preordain, the deck is heavily dependant on library manipulation in order to get things going smoothly.
Mono G works sometimes, thanks to Summoning Trap, but without any library manipulation and card drawing ability, it often stalls and dies
GU version managed at absolute best (moons and planets aligning, highly unlikely) a turn 2 Primeval Titan, but regulary could produce him at turn 3 or 4. Any slower than this and the deck dies
Anyway, I'm in dire need of alternatives to fixing the consistency issues the deck is facing. Any alternatives to Ponder / Preordain or mana ramp is higly appreciated
Regarding the titans / jaces, I know that's budget issues that keeps you from running a full playset, but you really should
I agree that cards like Mind Rot shouldn't be played in control decks, but Duress and Inquisition of Kozilek are powerful enough to be played. As a T1 play it can really mess up their opening hand, they also make it possible to cast your game enders a few turns earlier since you can take out their removal, and more importantly, see their hand
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Drowned Catacomb
8 Island
1 Mystifying Maze
8 Swamp
Sorcery (7)
3x Consuming Vapors
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
Instant (10)
4x Jace's Ingenuity
4x Mana Leak
2x Soul Manipulation
4x Calcite Snapper
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3x Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Planeswalker (6)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Liliana Vess
4x Agony Warp
4x Countersquall
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Sadistic Sacrament
3x Slave of Bolas
I'm really unsure about Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, I draw cards just fine with 4x Jace's Ingenuity & 3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and he needs protection once he hits the field. I really low the ability to tutor with Liliana Vess for a singleton game ender, perhaps I should replace him for either Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre or Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (or just go with a 4th Sphinx of Jwar Isle)