I like this idea better, Planeswalkers and KOTR survive after a DF giving it a higher chance of having better board position post DF. We do not have the same artifact acceleration like we had in the old Wildfire decks that can allow us to readily use DF. With Garruk, Vengeant, Chandra, Gideon, KOTR and Titans as our finishers/threats post DF, it will most likely be an auto win.
^this makes sense. Without Annex or some form of land steal/fast artifacts the deck would play better as a good stuff deck that uses DF as a win now card.
Since I am far to lazy to read 85 pages I will post my small piece of info which may have already been discussed.
Way back in Mirrodins release there was a deck crafted called MBC.This wasn't the first build of this deck just another incarnation of a solid archetype. This deck had a card which is in M11 that seems to be going unnoticed.
Triskilion
I know some will say he seems small or weak for this deck, however he can give you a non-black removal that is around the same cost as Brittle Effigy. Except he can spread the pain aroun and can be recurred by blacks many grave spells.
Just a thought is all. I myself like the MBC that has a good mix of solid artifacts and card draw. You may want to play something else. Tris was always a good card in the games I saw him in and he never didn't get damage in.
I agree with the Unholy Strength arguement. Originally this deck ran Hatred, but we dont have that or the Rituals to get it out.
However people seem to be missing the fact that Suicide doesn't care about anything other than an opponent at 0. 2 for 1's, don't care. Life loss from card draw, don't care.
Look at it like this, you Unholy your Black Knight versus a White based player you swinging for 4 every turn. Thats 5 swings with just him to KO. Or you eat Vengevines all day long. That little Lacerator looking small, give him strength. Swing for 4 turn 2, sounds good. You use your life total for cards so why care about CA?
Honestly how many of you played a Sui deck that was a real threat? I mean no offense but really is there anyone here who has experience with the archetype? I have to check to see if any Equipment might work here, as that would address the 2 for 1 you all seem so concerned with.
I pay like zero attention to T2, but I'm such a Wildfire dork that I've been wanting to try it. Personally I think the Naya build with the Planeswalkers + KOTR is the way to go. Trying to replicate the original is pointless since the artifact mana isn't good enough; imo the key is to just play as many threats as you can that aren't affected by Force along with some accel.
Very true. The only thing I see is that the format is slower. Also the problem decks for a archetype such as this are all weakened by new cards. There is an issue of Mana Leak being used against you.
Wasn't Regress reprinted? You know the old idea of land denial. You cantrip/mana piece the first 2 turns. Then you play Regress on your opponents 2nd or 3rd land. Followed by another LD spell the next turn. Your on turn 4 with 4-5 mana sources while your opponent is still on 2. Thus putting you 2 mana ahead on your race. If you follow it with a turn 5 fatty via your artifact mana you can then cast a turn 6 DF if you like. Your opponent would be behind in the mana race and you would have a nice size beater to ride to the finish. Now the other option is to keep the opponents land base low until the tap out for a threat you don't want to deal with. Then DF the board and start the game over in your favor. Perhaps people should consider using Preordain and Mana Leak?
I would play mine more to this route. It is how I played Domain back in Kami/Rav standard. This meta is slower and also more creature based so this deck IMO would be better. Voltaic key seems like a win more card, where as a Preordain, or even Mana Leak could swing a post DF board into a win. We ran 5-7 signets and the real gem of the deck was Annex. Without Annex you will need to play more LD/Denial. Come on the worst thing I see in this meta is BSA and I just showed that you can keep her from ever coming into play. RDW will take a hit from the Leyline. As will Jund so I cant see why this deck cant work. Just think your being a little narrow on the discussion. Expect to hear more from me after the prerelease this weekend, I hope to grab all the copies people will be tossing due to the 7cc this card has. And believe me there will be plenty of people who will bemoan this card as terrible. Shhh don't tell them the secret.
So the reaction by the masses is the same as always. "oh goodness the killed my LKR deck, however will I win games without thinking?"
Seriously this has been the response from magic players over the last 17 years. They print cards people didn't expect, thus didn't spend for, and people react poorly due to a monetary investment into a archetype. Not that paying for a good deck is silly but still, being flexible wouldn't hurt you guys. I am planning on making a non-white standard deck and this card bothers me very little.
Legacy to me is where this card will get most of its play. That being said its still not cut and dry as to how much play it will see.
Some examples of what people should be discussing about this card are as follows:
RDW players: What good creatures do we have to deal our damge and what burn spells are the most efficient at creature removal. Can we splash green or maybe white and not lose steam?
MBC/Suicide Black: This new group of players shouldn't really be bothered by this card honestly. You lose the hand destruction but little else. Last time I check Corrupt killed creatures just as well as players. Mind Sludge is expensive and frankly never that strong. So what do we have left? Plenty of strong creatures and soon the best targeted removal in standard. You can still harm plainswalkers the same as you could before.
So we have 2 archetypes affected by this card. However is is a dead card versus any blue, green, or white deck. Seriously this card is good but not the end of all things magic.
Also if this isn't in play turn 1 how good is it? If you let me get my burn spells in and are at 10 or less life when you have that 4th mana, your seriously going to play a spell that doesn't have any effect on my Goblin Guide or the host of other creatures that red employs? If you have to draw this say then play it versus discard it already a bad play. The best discard is the early spells that stop your removal. If I hit you turn 2 with a Duress I wouldn't be reaching for this card unless I had no other option. Sure in the abstract of this forum this card is a house, however it won't be the card that defines this format or any other. How good is LLotV when you dont play it turn 0? It's not and I should know I have been playing it since it came out.
Oh and for the record this is actually better than Ivory Mask since you can still target yourself.
I don't know if many of you ever played the Wild Pair Slivers deck from late Time Spiral Standard? It was without a doubt a blast to play but kinda lacked the finishing pieces to make it consistant.
It used Wild Pair in conjunction with the timespiral slivers to control the board and power out tons of threats. This new extended seems to lack any really strange decks so I purpose this as an option.
If I wasnt posting from my Wii internet I would put up a decklist.
Good thread. I have been playing Pox since the card was printed. The arguement against Dark Ritual bothers me, Why would you give up that speed? Also why no mention of Zuran Orb? Or did I miss it?
Well new extended seems like a diluted version of the great thin it has been. I am sure someone will come up with something silly to make it fun. You know I really don't know of any standard decks that will hold up to a good Fae list with 4-8 cards.
I just came back to magic after a 2 year absence (2nd time I left), to find this format laying in front of me. At first I thought it was a bad thing but now I think it will actually be an interesting format.
^this makes sense. Without Annex or some form of land steal/fast artifacts the deck would play better as a good stuff deck that uses DF as a win now card.
Way back in Mirrodins release there was a deck crafted called MBC.This wasn't the first build of this deck just another incarnation of a solid archetype. This deck had a card which is in M11 that seems to be going unnoticed.
Triskilion
I know some will say he seems small or weak for this deck, however he can give you a non-black removal that is around the same cost as Brittle Effigy. Except he can spread the pain aroun and can be recurred by blacks many grave spells.
Just a thought is all. I myself like the MBC that has a good mix of solid artifacts and card draw. You may want to play something else. Tris was always a good card in the games I saw him in and he never didn't get damage in.
However people seem to be missing the fact that Suicide doesn't care about anything other than an opponent at 0. 2 for 1's, don't care. Life loss from card draw, don't care.
Look at it like this, you Unholy your Black Knight versus a White based player you swinging for 4 every turn. Thats 5 swings with just him to KO. Or you eat Vengevines all day long. That little Lacerator looking small, give him strength. Swing for 4 turn 2, sounds good. You use your life total for cards so why care about CA?
Honestly how many of you played a Sui deck that was a real threat? I mean no offense but really is there anyone here who has experience with the archetype? I have to check to see if any Equipment might work here, as that would address the 2 for 1 you all seem so concerned with.
Very true. The only thing I see is that the format is slower. Also the problem decks for a archetype such as this are all weakened by new cards. There is an issue of Mana Leak being used against you.
I would play mine more to this route. It is how I played Domain back in Kami/Rav standard. This meta is slower and also more creature based so this deck IMO would be better. Voltaic key seems like a win more card, where as a Preordain, or even Mana Leak could swing a post DF board into a win. We ran 5-7 signets and the real gem of the deck was Annex. Without Annex you will need to play more LD/Denial. Come on the worst thing I see in this meta is BSA and I just showed that you can keep her from ever coming into play. RDW will take a hit from the Leyline. As will Jund so I cant see why this deck cant work. Just think your being a little narrow on the discussion. Expect to hear more from me after the prerelease this weekend, I hope to grab all the copies people will be tossing due to the 7cc this card has. And believe me there will be plenty of people who will bemoan this card as terrible. Shhh don't tell them the secret.
Seriously this has been the response from magic players over the last 17 years. They print cards people didn't expect, thus didn't spend for, and people react poorly due to a monetary investment into a archetype. Not that paying for a good deck is silly but still, being flexible wouldn't hurt you guys. I am planning on making a non-white standard deck and this card bothers me very little.
Legacy to me is where this card will get most of its play. That being said its still not cut and dry as to how much play it will see.
Some examples of what people should be discussing about this card are as follows:
RDW players: What good creatures do we have to deal our damge and what burn spells are the most efficient at creature removal. Can we splash green or maybe white and not lose steam?
MBC/Suicide Black: This new group of players shouldn't really be bothered by this card honestly. You lose the hand destruction but little else. Last time I check Corrupt killed creatures just as well as players. Mind Sludge is expensive and frankly never that strong. So what do we have left? Plenty of strong creatures and soon the best targeted removal in standard. You can still harm plainswalkers the same as you could before.
So we have 2 archetypes affected by this card. However is is a dead card versus any blue, green, or white deck. Seriously this card is good but not the end of all things magic.
Also if this isn't in play turn 1 how good is it? If you let me get my burn spells in and are at 10 or less life when you have that 4th mana, your seriously going to play a spell that doesn't have any effect on my Goblin Guide or the host of other creatures that red employs? If you have to draw this say then play it versus discard it already a bad play. The best discard is the early spells that stop your removal. If I hit you turn 2 with a Duress I wouldn't be reaching for this card unless I had no other option. Sure in the abstract of this forum this card is a house, however it won't be the card that defines this format or any other. How good is LLotV when you dont play it turn 0? It's not and I should know I have been playing it since it came out.
Oh and for the record this is actually better than Ivory Mask since you can still target yourself.
It used Wild Pair in conjunction with the timespiral slivers to control the board and power out tons of threats. This new extended seems to lack any really strange decks so I purpose this as an option.
If I wasnt posting from my Wii internet I would put up a decklist.
I just came back to magic after a 2 year absence (2nd time I left), to find this format laying in front of me. At first I thought it was a bad thing but now I think it will actually be an interesting format.